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A Good Guy and Sysiphus - you crack me up. I can't chat long right now, but I disagree with A Faithful Wife. Leaving is much harder than staying right now. Staying and going on with the status quo would be a piece of cake. No divorce spiel/custody crap/apartment setup(very expensive)/etc...<BR>I took the deep breaths and all of that; I've been doing that for 3 months. You have to understand that I feel NO love for my WS right now. Every little thing that got on my nerves in the past but I looked over for the "sake of love" drives me absolutely nuts now. I YEARN to live alone again. There's a post about the good parts about living alone; I can't wait for those things. Keep in mind I'm only 31 and have been "attached" forever. Yeah, I'm talking like a WS because I feel like I've "wasted" the best years of my life since my my WS' betrayal. Now I feel like playing. Most of you guys are implying that I'm a quitter, not looking out for my family, not taking enough time, etc. Keep in mind though that I didn't ask to be put into this situation. But it has opened my eyes to how rotten of a relationship I've had for the past 13 years. And I don't want to be in this situation at the age of 40, when nobody wants to play with me anymore. Even though I don't feel (or look - judge for yourself <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/dovesguy41/brad.jpg" TARGET=_blank>www.geocities.com/dovesguy41/brad.jpg</A> 31, I feel that life is beginning to pass me by and I will just be betrayed again.<P><BR>Talk to you tomorrow...<P>BradTheDad<P>[This message has been edited by BradTheDad (edited February 20, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by BradTheDad (edited February 20, 2001).]

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A baby in a nearby town was just murdered - murdered by her mother's new boyfriend. Apparently the baby's father moved out and the new boyfriend moved right in. Not long afterwards he beat the baby to death while the mom was at work because the baby was crying. <P>Fortunately not all OM's or new boyfriends are murderers - but few if any of them would care about the children like their own father would. Why would a father who loved his children ever leave them?

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BradTheDad:<BR><B>A Good Guy and Sysiphus - you crack me up. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Huh? Did I say a funny? I must have missed it. I thought I was the ONLY one to try to answer your question on how to tell the kids. I sure wasn't trying to be funny...<P>You must have me confused with MikeC2 [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>AGG

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>You must have me confused with MikeC2 [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm the good looking one, Brad.<P>Actually, your situation touches a very deep nerve with me, and JL put his finger on it. It isn't that your W fooled around. Well, it is, of course. But it is that she fooled around with your WORST ENEMEY.<P>Believe it or not, I have been through something of a parallel experience. Although my sainted little wife only had a few relationships before we hooked up, one of them was with the guy I hated most in my life, someone that I locked horns with all through adolescence. I only learned how far it had gone physically with him well after we were married (not far at all, but anything above holding hands had me vomiting.) So, I do have a perspective. <P>I'm going to make a very weird suggestion, something that will take all your courage.<P>Go talk to this guy.<P>Call him up and meet him at a bar.<P>The demon is rarely worse than the person.<P>If he is as bad as you have made him up to be in your mind....then leave the marriage. You will probably never get over it.<P>If he shows some humanity, even remorse....well...you might see a path to reconciliation.<P>If you are leaving anyway, you have nothing to lose. But maybe he'll turn out not to be the 8 foot monster you have him in your head. Hell, meet him to tell him that your wife is all his, if he wants her. Meet him to get the truth about what your wife said and did.<P>Face your demons. Because no matter where you go, the memory of this guy will haunt you.<P>Tough advice, I know. But the moment you walk away from that meeting having punctured the specter and fear of this big bad boogieman will be the most exhilirating moment of your life.<P>Mike

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Brad,<P>I hear you, Babe. My ex had a lengthy affair with my "enemy", if you will. This person presented themself as a friend. I watched in slow motion horror, the dance of infidelity unfold. It is always the same, with only the minor details, differing. It is a train wreck that you may see coming, but are helpless to stop or derail, in many cases.<P>When I had proof I still persisted to hold my marriage together, mostly for the sake of my children. I suffered relentlessly. My ex was contrite, remorseful, and wanting to rebuild. So what went wrong? Ex won all the way around. Kept his faithful spouse, children, home, business, friends, and family relations. The only loss to Ex was the OP of whom he had grown tired of anyway. Where did that ultimately leave me? Untrusting, depressed to the point of suicide, sick, scared and having to mentally work day in and day out for a piece of normal. This would be my lot in life and he would joyfully continue his life with me. After a couple of years I knew that this was not even close to fair for a faithful and loving spouse of 25 years and was NOT working. I left my life. I took a grand leap of blind faith that life could be better. It wasn't about anybody else filling my life with what I needed. It was about me finding the power to fill my own life and enable me to be the person I AM, for my children, as well as myself. Mostly, it was about STOPPING THE PAIN!<P>I can't always go along with the principles of this board, although there is no question that the practices are helpful for some. If you know that there is no future for you in your current situation then do something about it. Sure, in a perfect world we could maintain our families but our world is a far cry from perfect. You CAN be a good parent to your children even if they do not sleep under your roof every night. My children have both told me that they are happier now because I seem "back" to being Mom. Easy??? Not even close. The main thing is to continue telling them how much you love them. If possible, compliment their Mother when you can. Remember that they are part Her. Example..."You look so pretty today, just like your Mother". Make the association a positive one on your behalf, they will love you in the long run for making it possible to love you both. YOU will set the example on how a mature parent handles hardship and change. Stick to the high road, you are the mechanic who is hard-wiring their brains for adulthood. Help them to learn resilience and strength by example. There are many of us who have been down the road. We can tell you what works and what doesn't, let us help.<P>I wish you luck on this journey and joy in your future...it's out there.

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Brad,<P>I hear you, Babe. My ex had a lengthy affair with my "enemy", if you will. This person presented themself as a friend. I watched in slow motion horror, the dance of infidelity unfold. It is always the same, with only the minor details, differing. It is a train wreck that you may see coming, but are helpless to stop or derail, in many cases.<P>When I had proof I still persisted to hold my marriage together, mostly for the sake of my children. I suffered relentlessly. My ex was contrite, remorseful, and wanting to rebuild. So what went wrong? Ex won all the way around. Kept his faithful spouse, children, home, business, friends, and family relations. The only loss to Ex was the OP of whom he had grown tired of anyway. Where did that ultimately leave me? Untrusting, depressed to the point of suicide, sick, scared and having to mentally work day in and day out for a piece of normal. This would be my lot in life and he would joyfully continue his life with me. After a couple of years I knew that this was not even close to fair for a faithful and loving spouse of 25 years and was NOT working. I left my life. I took a grand leap of blind faith that life could be better. It wasn't about anybody else filling my life with what I needed. It was about me finding the power to fill my own life and enable me to be the person I AM, for my children, as well as myself. Mostly, it was about STOPPING THE PAIN!<P>I can't always go along with the principles of this board, although there is no question that the practices are helpful for some. If you know that there is no future for you in your current situation then do something about it. Sure, in a perfect world we could maintain our families but our world is a far cry from perfect. You CAN be a good parent to your children even if they do not sleep under your roof every night. My children have both told me that they are happier now because I seem "back" to being Mom. Easy??? Not even close. The main thing is to continue telling them how much you love them. If possible, compliment their Mother when you can. Remember that they are part Her. Example..."You look so pretty today, just like your Mother". Make the association a positive one on your behalf, they will love you in the long run for making it possible to love you both. YOU will set the example on how a mature parent handles hardship and change. Stick to the high road, you are the mechanic who is hard-wiring their brains for adulthood. Help them to learn resilience and strength by example. There are many of us who have been down the road. We can tell you what works and what doesn't, let us help.<P>I wish you luck on this journey and joy in your future...it's out there.

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BTW, this comes from a weeknight at Disney with the kids, no stinkin' X to put up with!<BR> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>OK, Brad, I will give you the spiel I gave our kids, upon our separation last July first. Now, I am answering the original post, I will let the others talk the "right" stuff to you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P><BR>Both of the parent's were there, and I did the "talking" since X tried to inform the kids the first time, and mangled the cr@p out of it.<P>I did not make it long, here is the format I used, so to speak:<P>1) Inform them what is happening as a joint agreement, "Mom and Dad have decided not to live together anymore." note, joint decision!<P>2) I insured them that it was NOT an emotional decision, but a well researched one, and that I had done extensive research and counseling, and that there is a valid reason for this to happen. And when they got older, I could explain it to them in total detail.<P>3) The kids immeditely asked about divorce, and my response was, "There are parents who are never married who have kids, divorce is only a legal piece of paper, and does not eliminate love between the parent and the kids." The kids actually felt more relieved about that than anything else.<P>4) I told them the stuff that I would still be doing, ie: their soccer coach, their parent teacher conference, their vacations, their homework, etc. that made them feel NOT abandoned!<P>and I have followed through, so far!<P>Counselor said they were doing real well, although I think they could be doing better in some ways, mostly the ways of the X, but not here, not now.<P>9 yo d said that "divorce is OK since they see me alot, and I haven't abandon them."<P>Ultimately, ABANDONMENT is the feeling you want them NOT to experience, so you should fight for 50% visitation, which makes neither parent the seldom seen from and heard from parent! IMHO.<P>Hope this helps, I know it did for my kids, as I still did things with them for their mom, I still do things with them all the time, and I am not a disney dad, I am very tough on them, and they know that! when they call their mom, they are so whiney to get attention, it is disgusting!<P>gotta go, MGM- tower of terror tomorrow! yuck, but the kids want it!<P>tom

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BradTheDad:<BR><B>Leaving is much harder than staying right now. Staying and going on with the status quo would be a piece of cake. No divorce spiel/custody crap/apartment setup(very expensive)/etc...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>So if you list reasons to stay on one side of the page, and reasons to go on the other side, I bet the "stay" side is longer. Ben Franklin said go with the longer list.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>I took the deep breaths and all of that; I've been doing that for 3 months. You have to understand that I feel NO love for my WS right now. Every little thing that got on my nerves in the past but I looked over for the "sake of love" drives me absolutely nuts now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Theese are just "annoying habits" and the next woman will have most of the same ones and then some. Out of the frying pan...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I YEARN to live alone again. There's a post about the good parts about living alone; I can't wait for those things. Keep in mind I'm only 31 and have been "attached" forever. Yeah, I'm talking like a WS because I feel like I've "wasted" the best years of my life since my my WS' betrayal. Now I feel like playing. Most of you guys are implying that I'm a quitter, not looking out for my family, not taking enough time, etc. Keep in mind though that I didn't ask to be put into this situation. But it has opened my eyes to how rotten of a relationship I've had for the past 13 years. And I don't want to be in this situation at the age of 40, when nobody wants to play with me anymore. I feel that life is beginning to pass me by and I will just be betrayed again.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Living alone isn't perfect either. You feel like playing? I'd say that's just revenge talking. You didn't ask to be put in this situation? You married a woman with this weird guy out there ... knowing she had been attracted to him, and that his twisted personality gave him some strange power over her. You bought in--lock, stock and two smoking barrels. I wouldn't have wanted the ticking bomb out there either, but it went off, and the damage seems reparable. <P>If you're still in this situation at age 40, believe me that if you have been the kind of husband you should be (meaning, among other things, that you've kept yourself in shape), there will still be plenty (if not even more) women who will want to play with you. But what's this "playing"? That's sooo <I>high school</I>. <P>You think you're potentially another Bill Clinton or something? I think that's what you must mean by "playing". Geez, how much respect do people have for him? Serial philanderer, possible rapist, and lets the OW suffer for his sins (I don't think any of them have described anything but misery coming as a result of getting involved with him). <P>Frankly, what you've done is rewritten your marital history. And you have deleted everything <B><I>good</I></B> that happened in the marriage. That's a natural response to pain and disappointment (women tend to do it more--do you want to be like a woman?). But there are ways around it, and through it. Find those ways. <P>Make this house-sitting arrangement a "controlled separation", and do it "by the book" (the one you get at Amazon.com). Don't take away your wife's hope, or your own. I can't predict what will happen in the end. I just know that this anger is normal and natural, and that it <I>isn't</I> permanent. <P>When the cord is broken and the nostalgia sets in, there are things our spouses do--even annoying habits--that we would swear we could learn to <I>enjoy</I>, if only we could have them back. Don't find this out for yourself the hard way.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

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Brad, <P>I will try to stick to your original question, "How to tell the kids". <P>The best advice is pretty clear on this subject. Tell the kids you are separating because you & wife don't get along, that you don't love each other anymore, and to stop the arguing. The children will be relieved to know the fighting will end. You are correct that it is not healthy for the kids to live in that atmosphere.<P>VERY IMPORTANT: DO NOT LAY BLAME!!! Even if it's true. Tell the kids it's a mutual decision, that it's for the best. Tell them you are sad about it, but that you, and Mom will feel better again when you are apart.<P>Tell the kids it's final. Don't leave the door open for false hopes, which will only be dashed.<P>Tell the kids over and over agin that they will be cared for, that you and their mom will cooperate in parenting, that you want to be the best Dad you can.<P>Which brings us to access and custody. Access means visits with the kids, or the kids visit you, but you give up the right to make decisions about their lives. Custody means you maintain the rights of decisions in their life. It sounds like you want to maintain custody. There can be sole custody or shared custody. You are unlikely to win a case for sole custody unless your wife willingly gives up custody, (or goes on a major crime spree). Adultery is not grounds for loosing custody. <P>However, you can get shared custody. It would help if you put that in writing before you move out. Even better if your wife agrees, but it is not necessary. Definately consult a family lawyer about this before you go.<P>Finally, I scanned the posts and read quite a bit of critisism towards you about the step you are contemplating. I will say that only you know what your situation is realy like, and what you can endure. It's up to you to decide what is in the best interest of yourself and your children. <P>It doesn't seem unreasonable that you need some time on your own to sort out the mess of conflicting feelings. Good luck.

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Hi Brad,<P>I have read over your post and all the forthcoming replies with great interest. There seems to be a multitude of people here giving you unsolicited advice regarding your present state.<P>Why?<P>Everyone here, myself included, have a very convouloted story behind our maraige and our own lives. Everyone's situation is unique and meaningful. Most of us it seems have been betrayed beyond comprehension by our WS and OP. Many of us sought healing and reconciliation.<P>However our situation turned out, or continues to unfold; we gain very valuable insight. Insight that is impossible to grip in the midst of the storm. When we are ruled by our emotions I will venture to say that we are usually irrational and self-seeking, as we are looking for some soothing comfort to our pain.<P>Everyone here has a lot to offer, as most have been through the storm. They have mostly been able extract reason, logic and sensibility and apply it to their lives.<BR>MUCH more practical. But, as I said before, we have all been through this storm. That in itself is not unique to you.<P>You can choose to read these posts and find ALL the reasons why these words of wisdom do not apply to you and youre present situation. <P>Or, you can find the similarities. Believe me, there are more likeness's than you realize.<P>Everyone here has advocated you finding some way to get through this storm of emotions so that you might have a clear rational mind. I agree. Stop reacting. Collect yourself. You are a unique wonderful person..a great dad.. were a devoted husband through thick and thin.<P>Your actions made in the midst of this storm will serve you and your children no good. I dare to say most will agree with me on this.<P>Find some inner peace to deal with things as they presently are. Someone had a great idea. Face this man. I know, easier said than done. Think of the peace of mind you would gain.<P>That is what you want isn't it?<P>All the bits of wisdom you will hear did not come easy to anyone. Remember this. And find a way to apply to it to your life, for your own well being.

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Hi Brad,<P>I have read over your post and all the forthcoming replies with great interest. There seems to be a multitude of people here giving you unsolicited advice regarding your present state.<P>Why?<P>Everyone here, myself included, have a very convouloted story behind our maraige and our own lives. Everyone's situation is unique and meaningful. Most of us it seems have been betrayed beyond comprehension by our WS and OP. Many of us sought healing and reconciliation.<P>However our situation turned out, or continues to unfold; we gain very valuable insight. Insight that is impossible to grip in the midst of the storm. When we are ruled by our emotions I will venture to say that we are usually irrational and self-seeking, as we are looking for some soothing comfort to our pain.<P>Everyone here has a lot to offer, as most have been through the storm. They have mostly been able extract reason, logic and sensibility and apply it to their lives.<BR>MUCH more practical. But, as I said before, we have all been through this storm. That in itself is not unique to you.<P>You can choose to read these posts and find ALL the reasons why these words of wisdom do not apply to you and youre present situation. <P>Or, you can find the similarities. Believe me, there are more likeness's than you realize.<P>Everyone here has advocated you finding some way to get through this storm of emotions so that you might have a clear rational mind. I agree. Stop reacting. Collect yourself. You are a unique wonderful person..a great dad.. were a devoted husband through thick and thin.<P>Your actions made in the midst of this storm will serve you and your children no good. I dare to say most will agree with me on this.<P>Find some inner peace to deal with things as they presently are. Someone had a great idea. Face this man. I know, easier said than done. Think of the peace of mind you would gain.<P>That is what you want isn't it?<P>All the bits of wisdom you will hear did not come easy to anyone. Remember this. And find a way to apply to it to your life, for your own well being.

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Now, there is only one thing I disagree with regarding telling the children.<P>I will not, under any circumstances, take responsibility for something I have no control over.<P>It was not my decision to end my marriage. It was hers. My son knows this and hopes every day that his mother will come back. I did not present this to him as "mom is a bad person" or anything like that, just that his mother did not want to be a family with his dad right now, but she still wanted to be a family with him.<P>Although it may not always be in the best interest of the children, I beleive in telling them the way it is. Especially for your 14 year old. She is old enough to handle anything that you tell her, probably.

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Brad,<BR>I can understand and will support you leaving your marriage. I sometimes feel my 15 yr marriage was a shame too. My x never showed any remorse or any real attempt at reconciliation( she refused to throw away ring om had bought her early on, she did put it in safe deposit box, but it stayed there a week. All efforts at counseling were her dumping on me about my faults.). <P>SO when she again went back to seeing om, I filed for the divorce. She had started the papers earlier, but they were on hold with my lawyer.<P>The others had good advice on telling the kids, making sure they know its not about them, not laying blame on spouse,etc. My son was nervous about where he was going to live and my daughter was afraid she would have to go to the divorce trial. <P>They both probably have many misconceptions about divorce/separation.<P>I think you too have misconceptions about divorce. You need to speak with a lawyer in you area to see what is involved in visitation in your area.<P>Someone else on another thread was trying to arrange where his son was going to school and who would pay. Everybody here told him he was barking up the wrong tree and but he was sure the court would see his way.<P>I don't remember seeing the final outcome so I am assuming he lost.<P>What my lawyer told me, is that, here in OH. the courts are looking for the easiest solution to the divorce and aren't happy with a lot of stipulations because they feel you will always be back in court fighting about stipulations.<P>Just food for thought. Please research your area on child visitation and custody.<P>I haven't seen anyone posting here that has the true 50-50 sharing of the kids. I just don't think it is feasible. One of your kids is 14, mine is 13 and at this point she doesn't care if either of her parents are around. How much influence can you have on someone at this age and mindset if you are only around part time.<P>As the custodial parent, I find it very easy to get into the "Disneyland dad" mindset. I can only imagine how easy that must be for the part-time parent.<P>Hang in and God Bless.<P>Bob<BR>

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RWD, your situation is not on all-fours with his. His wife <I>is</I> contrite and has stopped seeing OM. He just has unspent anger still welling up inside. Not a good time to make decisions. Especially ones that may become irreversible. <P>I don't think you should be "supporting" him in what he's planning. I'm sorry your wife was such a b*tch, but it seems clear there is not the same situation here.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>BTW, this comes from a weeknight at Disney with the kids, no stinkin' X to put up with! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]</B><P>lol...yaya!<P>Where are you staying?<P><B>gotta go, MGM- tower of terror tomorrow! yuck, but the kids want it!</B><P>It isn't that scary. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] The scariest thing at Disney is the front car on Space Mountain. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>gotta go, MGM- tower of terror tomorrow! yuck, but the kids want it!<P>It isn't that scary. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] The scariest thing at Disney is the front car on Space Mountain. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I call it the <B>Tower of Mild Annoyance</B>. Really. The drop is <I>nothing</I>. And if you think that was the scariest thing, you must not have been the one looking at the credit card bill!<P>

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Sisphyus,<BR>I stand corrected. I read Brads links and I now see that his problems were not all that different from anyone else's here. <P>I took his posting here at face value and read more into his situation than there appears to be.<P>I do suppport marriage, thats why I am on this site.<P>Bob

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The contemporary<P>leave friday morning,<P>call if you are here!<P>if you need my real name,<BR>ask AGG!<P>tom

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>The contemporary</B><P>How do you like it?<P>No, I'm not there, but I often am [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>We have stayed at Boardwalk and Wilderness...really liked them.<P>

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BradtheDad,<P>Ok. I'm walking into the fire here big time. But my skin is pretty thick by now. I've been here a long time.<P>I cheated on my ex... a two week PA with someone he warned me about. I won't get into all of the logistics. I ended it immediately, confessed, was extremely remorseful--to the point of being suicidal because I felt so bad about what I did. Some argue that I'm celibate now because I still can't forgive myself. Maybe they are right, but I don't think about it too much.<P>My ex felt alot like you do now. The day I confessed he stayed at a friend's house. He stayed there almost every night but one for the next two weeks and moved out two weeks later. We never lived together again.<P>He had his own affair within a month, was very abusive towards me (endless verbal abuse and two incidents of physical abuse). When he got tired of punishing me or when he decided he "just couldn't get over it", whatever, he divorced me--about a year after my confession. That was about two years ago. I've been celibate ever since. I'm now 36. If you saw my picture, you'd know I'm not chopped liver either. I'm the essence of self-control now (regarding sex). My ex gets to start over and cross his fingers that the next woman won't cheat or do some other dastardly deed. Oh well. <P>The reason I'm telling you this, Bradthedad, is that my ex also had problems. Some problems that had nothing to do with me, but that is what I signed up for when I took those vows. Not that he deserved to be cheated on. I take full responsibility for that. However, because I cheated it him will be easier for him to blame me for our marriage falling apart. No brainer you think? <P>I think that his odds of success in the future aren't so great if he doesn't take an inventory of his own contribution to the breakup. Second and consecutive marriages fail 75% or more of the time. Your best chance at marital success is with your first marriage. I can't begin to understand all the reasons why that is true, but the statistics seem to speak for themselves. This is why people are encouraging you to take some time before you end it. <P>You might believe your wife is damaged goods. You might find it hard (and you think impossible right now) to ever trust her again. However, you will have a hard time finding a perfect package out there, and an even harder time making yourself into the perfect package.<P>Since I don't have children, I don't know what you should say to them. From my experience with adults whose parents are divorced and from reading, I can tell you this. Children of parents who divorce are much more likely to end up divorced themselves. Most of the time, even when infidelity has occurred, they don't side with one parent or the other. Ultimately, their conclusion is that marriage doesn't work most of the time and that divorce is ok if one person isn't happy. Or, they learn that an affair (if one should happen) needs to be kept a secret from the spouse at all costs. <P>They don't learn how to resolve conflict, they don't learn how to overcome adversity or tragedy. They learn that when the going gets tough, then you get a divorce and find someone new.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited February 22, 2001).]

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