I'm beginning to think that the only women who find me an acceptable date are nitwits.<P>The latest incident concerns a woman I have been dating exclusively, but really have no way of knowing if she is dating others. We've been a pair at church, at numerous social affairs and civic events, and have been dinner companions followed by some kind of entertainment at least once a week since last March. We have even made a number of day trips to NYC to have dinner and see Broadway Shows. The relationship has not included a trip to the bedroom. We have never been to a dance club either. <P>Last Saturday Night, a local DJ ran an Oldies night at one of the local watering holes, and a number of couples we know were planning to attend. I really liked the idea, actually got a little excited by it, and suggested it as a date to my lady friend. She didn't share my enthusiasm. She said she really didn't enjoy dancing, and besides, she already had "other plans" for the evening. Then she goes on to tell me I should feel free to go to this oldies night with the others. That was Monday night.<P>So on Wednesday, I paid for a single ticket, and told my friends I was coming stag.<P>Friday evening we go out to dinner, and she casually asked what I was doing for Saturday night. When I told her I was going to the oldies night with friends, the wheels fell off the wagon! She started with a slow burn, her face started getting red, and within a minute, the tears were flowing. That turned into anger real quick, she just couldn't believe I was going to this affair without her! <P>We left most of dinner uneaten. After I paid the check, we left the restaurant, and she got in a Taxi and left alone. Not only was Friday night wrecked, but the whole thing really put a damper on Saturday night too. I haven't tried to call her since.<P>I have never understood women, I don't understand them now. Why is she telling me to feel free to go alone when she doesn't want me to go? None of this makes any sense to me, but I am sure it makes sense to her. I'm hoping some of the women here understand it. What did I miss, what was going on here that I'm not paying any attention to?<P>Bumper<P>

If men and women had perfect communication this board would not exist. She's not a nitwit. You're not a nitwit. <P>When you accidentally step on someone's toe, you apologize. You don't think to yourself "I didn't mean to hurt them so no apology is necessary." <P>Send a nice apology card, with or without flowers. Write "I wish I had understood how important it was for me to be with you on Saturday night instead of going to oldies night. I let my excitement for <I>it</I> steamroller over what <I>we</I> have together. I hope I'll learn to <I>read</I> you better, and you'll learn to <I>tell</I> me better, and things like that won't happen much. And I hope that when they do, we'll be both understanding and forgiving."<P>(insert additional mushy sentiment here)<P>- Bumper

Bumper,<P>Here's my chick read on this. You two have been seeing each other exclusively, and so she probably at the very least, thinks you two are "an item"--"a couple". When she did not show enthusiasm, she probably wanted you to drop it to and show enthusiasm toward being with her. When she said she had other plans and you could go alone, she probably wanted you to say, "I would rather be with you." And last but not least, when you went on your own (whether she had plans or not), it probably shook up her perception of being "a couple", because now you are going out on your own. <P>I know, I know. This is complicated, Mars v. Venus type stuff, but I bet her concern is that she thought you guys were a pair, and now you're going off without her. Are you going to scope out other chicks or what? Now, I have no doubt that she is a "big girl" and that the two of you have a fine understanding between you. It's just that the way she saw it defined was shook up by your going out alone.<P>Bumper, I like Sisyphus' suggestion. Get a nice card that says you care about her, and write in it something to the effect of what he said. <P>Just, FYI, here are two more quick "womanspeak" topics that most men can learn easily and which will go a million miles with almost any woman. <P>The "Five Minutes equals Five Hours" theory says that even though it is a BIG interruption in your day or your thoughts, taking five minutes now to be comforting, thoughtful and loving will save you five hours of grief and fighting and bad feelings later. If you take the time to clear your desk or clear your mind, and let her have those five minutes when she needs it, you will save five hours of her feeling unimportant and feeling upset and being fussy. <P>The second theory is the "Thank You for Sharing" theory. Whenenver she says something to you that you realize is opening up, sharing some of herself with you, even if you disagree with the facts of what she said, say, "Thank you for sharing that with me. I realize it is a risk to open up like that, and I will consider what you said." TRUST ME, this one will go a LONG way in building a strong communication link between you, because she will feel as if she can really share herself and her feelings with you, and you won't put her down or say things to hurt her. Memorize that one!! <P>Good luck, Bumper! I'm proud of you for learning this stuff now!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

sorry.......but I am a woman.<P><I>hold on...let me check....</I><P>yup.....still a woman.......<P>and I don't understand this 'woman speak'...<P>I apologize if there are toes that I am treading on...<I>but</I>....<P><BR>when I say:<P>I <I>already</I> have other plans, go ahead and have a good time with your friends...<P><BR><B>I generally, actually mean it......</B><P>I don't understand this 'hurt' routine....bursting into tears??..in a restaurant??...after she <B>told</B> you that she had already made plans for that evening, and had no interest in the oldies night??!!!<P><BR>maybe <B>I'm</B> from mars...<P>I have no patience with 'game-playing' or crapola like that...sorry......<P>maybe a phone call...a nice one saying you don't understand what the exact prob is, since she did indeed, show NO enthusiasm and did tell you to go ahead.....<P>Sheeeeeesh......<P>again, sorry, but sending 'mixed signals' like that just makes the rest of us women look as confusing....and really......some of us are NOT!!!<P><BR>my 2 cents.<P>do find out what is at the bottom of this, however...if only for your peace of mind...<P>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Sorry. I don't think the apology card is warranted. You told her about the evening, you solicited her opinion, she said she had plans, she told you to go ahead without her. Now, you are expected to read her mind and apologize because she wasn't honest?<P><BR>The main point here was that she was not honest about her feelings. I would try and get some clarification, though. If she admits that she told you to go ahead, well, then its her problem. <P>What comes to mind is a statement that Jack Nicholson said in some movie I saw recently. He was a writer and a woman asked him "How do you write women so well". He replied "I think of a man. Then I take away all reason and accountability". Maybe next time she will think twice about telling you to do something she doesn't want you to do.<P>It's not just women who expect the other person to read their mind, then blame them for not having ESP. It's not just women who say one thing and mean something else. Some clarification is in order, but not an apology. She's a big girl. She should take some responsibility for the relationship as well.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>What comes to mind is a statement that Jack Nicholson said in some movie I saw recently. He was a writer and a woman asked him "How do you write women so well". He replied "I think of a man. Then I take away all reason and accountability". Maybe next time she will think twice about telling you to do something she doesn't want you to do.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That movie was <I><B>As Good As it Gets</I></B>, and Nicholson's depressed, obsessive-compulsive, homophobic, cruel-to-animals character said what he did because he wasn't on meds yet.<P>You have to make allowances for people in this world--or you find nastiness everywhere you turn. Sure it's "borderline" behavior to say one thing to a person while hoping that they will miraculously do the opposite because they love you and can see through your being too proud to admit that what they are planning is in direct opposition to your unspoken desire that they be only with <I>you</I>. <P>But that's what women do. Bumper will have to decide for himself whether he will put up with that, or wait for one of the 10% of women out there who <I>don't</I> do it. Beware: the latter come with their own different set of problems.<P>

I'm a woman too and I am of the opinion that if you say you have other plans and don't want to do X, that you need to mean it. And if you tell the other person to go on, then they are free to do that.<P>It's your own reputation you mess up when you pull a stunt like this woman did.<P>You may apologize if you wish. I do feel a conversation about the matter is in order. I don't feel you owe her flowers - maybe a card. However, if you really want to do a patch job on a problem you didn't cause - she caused it - send them.<P>Her behavior was more adolescent than adult.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> <P>But that's what women do. <P>....or wait for one of the 10% of women out there who <I>don't</I> do it. <P>Beware: the latter come with their own different set of problems.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>excuse me ???<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by soulloss:<BR><B>I have no patience with 'game-playing' or crapola like that...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>See what I mean. We all do it unintentionally sometimes, and you have no patience for it.<P>That makes for a different kind of trouble, and sooner rather than later.<P>

Hi, Dylan! Yes, you're still lady! Just a quick aside note, I loved your reunion reply to Leilana! You rock!<P>Hey, folks, don't get me wrong. I'm a chick, and I think as much as possible people of BOTH genders should say what they mean. Thus, Sisyphus' suggestion was great: "I'm sorry I didn't understand how important this Saturday was to you. I let the excitement of the Oldies event overshadow what we have together. I hope I will learn how to read you better, and I hope you will learn how to tell me better, so that miscommunications like this won't happen as often. But when they do, I hope we can both be understanding and forgiving of each other."<P>You are right. I totally talked about what the female person might have thought or felt, because that seemed to be somewhat of a mystery to Bumper. HOWEVER, I forgot to add the all important point that although he didn't understand what had happened, she also had not communicated her REAL needs and/or feelings. Thus, not only does he need to gain a glimpse into what she might have thought, she needs to work on refining those communication skills and saying what she means. For example, "Bumper, I already had made plans to watch a movie with my daughter in our sweats, and I know it's not as fun as the Oldies event, but I wish you would come and be with us." RIGHT? Or how about, "I really don't like dancing, but I want to be with you. How about if I cancel my boring plans and you ask me to be with you?" RIGHT? <P>Well, since Bumper seemed to be confused about what MIGHT have happened or what she might have been thinking, I kind of got stuck on that point and did not progress to the next very important point, which is:<P>IF SHE DIDN'T WANT YOU TO GO, SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID YOU COULD AND THEN GOT MAD ABOUT IT! <P>Please accept my humblest apologies and groveling. After all, I am only the humble servant woman here--heehee. <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Sisyphus,<BR>I'm more than happy to acknowledge that miscommunications happen even with the best of intentions on both sides. I'm happy to offer someone the benefit of the doubt, and-more often than not-go out of my way to understand where the miscommunication may have occurred. I won't take responsibility for someone else's problems though.<P>I do draw the line on rewarding irresponsible behavior. She has just as much reason to try and straighten things out as he does and just as much responsibility to do so.<P>Thanks for naming the movie for me. I happen to agree with the statement Jack Nicholson made. Alot of women fall into this behavior because the men they hang out with consider them stupid and weak, so they get rewarded for doing stuff like this. Not only that, women know they won't be held responsible for being flighty.<P>His girlfriend obviously got a reaction. Hmm. There's positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. If he wants to virtually guarantee that she does not change her communication style, then he should just keep giving her gifts whenever she gets upset or frustrated at his lack of skill in ESP.<P>Yea, I guess the downside to women who say what the mean, and do what they say is that they expect something similar out of the man. And thinking before talking or promising something is alot harder and takes more effort than promising the moon, and making up excuses later. Or blaming the other person for not "intuiting" their REAL feelings.

Yup, score one in soulloss's column for me too. There was no communication problem: you both seemed to speak very clear English. Only hers seemed to be the freshman kind.<P>No apology needed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>I won't take responsibility for someone else's problems though.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think I may have done that a few times in my life.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>There's positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unfortunately, the latter only works well on lower animals. Takes all the fun out of sadism.<P>

Sisyphus,<P>When you take responsibility for other people's problems and miscommunication, you are depriving them of a learning experience. Not only that, it is disrespectful, in a way. It's like you are saying they are too stupid, immature, or weak to handle their own problems. Now, I never said you can't offer a helping hand as they are jumping over the puddles of life, but they are the ones who have to take the leap. <P>If Bumperii apologized for this, sent her a card, etc, what message would it send? To me it would send a message that nothing I did was wrong or misunderstood and that the other person is accepting the responsibility for the problem. I'm pretty sure that is not the message he wants to send. <P>As far as positive and negative reinforcement...it is done all the time on humans too. Who said that humans are higher order beings <P>I'm not a big proponent of negative reinforcement. Even if the person does end up doing what you want them to do, it is usually done out of fear, not respect or understanding. Furthermore, if fear and punishment are big components in a relationship (and you could say I'm an expert in this area), and they are strong willed (as you know I am), they will just do what they want anyway and try to hide it. Not the ideal solution. Even positive reinforcement has it's drawbacks if it is perceived as being manipulative. <P>

Let me clarify what I meant.<P>By stating that Bumper could apologize, I meant that he might say something like, "I'm sorry if I misunderstood. When the oldies night was first discussed, you declined to go saying that you had other plans. Therefore, I made plans to go. If I misunderstood you, I apologize."<P>By send her a card, "I meant one stating nothing more than I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Do we need to talk this over."<P>But, in no way do I feel that he should apologize for going. And should he do much apologizing it will be positive reinforcement of a negative behavior and that is not a good thing.<P>So, basicall, for once, I think most of you sort of agree with those intents.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>If Bumperii apologized for this, sent her a card, etc, what message would it send? To me it would send a message that nothing I did was wrong or misunderstood and that the other person is accepting the responsibility for the problem. I'm pretty sure that is not the message he wants to send.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it would send a message of apology. Unless of course it was a phony <B><I>Lockhorns</I></B> "I'm sorry you're angry" apology! But it can be "I'm sorry that happened" rather than "I'm sorry I did that," <I>without</I> carrying the notion that he is admitting a major element of fault. <P>But consider that Bumper's GF had expressed her misgivings about going out dancing, and ultimately acceded to him to going alone. There wasn't a "gosh, I can't stand the noise but I don't want to deprive you of that, so you go". The latter would have been <I>gracious</I>, the former, which I think was what he got, was <I>grudging</I>.<P>I think the paragraph I initially suggested had just the hint that there was a communication problem from her side, couched in the gentlest of language. These people seem to be courting, don't you advocate being gentle?<P>Can Bumper read body language? With a law enforcement background, and still being alive, I would guess so. So the question is: Could he read her body language? Apparently not. I still think she gets a "free bite" on this one ... a repeat performance calls for an overt expression of concern on his part rather than an apology.

Well....yet another opinion from a female. I wouldn't have reacted the way Bumperii's date did, except possibly during a hormonal episode....or when I'm exhausted......or when sixteen unexpected 'occurances' all fell on me in one day...or when....well, I guess you get my point. BUT, I would have certainly appreciated--no cherished--the card and sentiments expressed by Sisyphys had I received such. [I am beginning to suspect a bit of genius in this one] <P>My suggestion would be to look for a pattern in this young woman's behavior. Was this an isolated incident? If so consider apologizing for 'the misunderstanding'and look for her to do the same. <P>If your girlfriend has a pattern of over-reaction---then you had better sit up and take notice. She is giving you snipets of what your life will be together should you marry.

Bumperii.<P>Do you know if this was an "event" or a "pattern"? If one experience is enough for you to make a decision, then so be it.<P>We do not all wear each others shoes. We try to mend and educate ourselves at this web site but don't allow others to catch up with us or expose them to our education and expectations.....slowly. <P>Even in baseball...three strikes, you're out!!! (not one)<P>Food for thought. <P>Ragamuffin

I think that confused & insecure and ragamuffin are right. An isolated incident can be understood but if this is "the game" she plays it will get old fast.

Hi everyone,<P>Wow, we sure got a lot of responses on this, thankyou one and all.<P>CJ, you give me far more credit than I deserve. I'm not confused about mixed signals from women. It will take me several more years of study, experimentation and experience to rise to the level of confusion.<BR>Some women seem to sense when other women are saying yes when they mean know. How do you do that?<P>What makes you think I would be eyeballing the other chicks? Not one of them spent less than two hours getting ready, nails and hair done, several hundred dollars of clothes and jewelry, and made up to the nines. The result is those hauntingly beautiful eyes, the nubile bodies and all those wonderful soft warm curves pulsating on the dance floor. Of course, I really didn't notice any of that, I just came for the beef and beer. Gimme a break, I'm old, fat and ugly, not dead!<P>Sisyphus, you pointed out that I accidently stepped on her toes. OK, but in reading the post, when did you realize that? What is the clue that tells you she is saying yes when she really means NO. Are the guys who seem to sense this really all that sensitive, or are they just candy coated male chauvinists who think they know something?<P>Ragmuffin,<P>My sense is it isn't a matter of one strike and she is out, it is more to the matter that is is one strike and I'm out. It is now a week since she stormed out, and I haven't heard anything from her. Cabaret is in town with Andrea McKartle and we have tickets for tonight. We have had this date planned for over a month, and I have no idea whether or not she plans to keep it.<P>I'm going to have to call her today to find out if she is going tonight. Many of the responses have talked about being honest about feelings. Well, if I am honest about my feelings right now, it isn't love I sense, it is dread. All I feel for her right now is fear. I'm not looking forward to some tearful reconcillation and I sure don't want to see her turn bright red as she knots her face up like a strawberry, that was the first time I've seen her angry. When I bought these tickets, all I wanted to do was enjoy the show, and the companionship of someone to share an evening with. <P>Student,<P>Yes, I do read body language fairly well, and from time to time I use that skill in my work. But what we were taught to watch for when interviewing and interrogating people isn't something you would want to get caught applying to a date. Contrary to popular belief, police are no better at knowing when someone is lying than anyone in the general population. There is an exception to that, Secret Service Agents under age forty do slightly better than the average population. Another little known secret, the biggest liars in law enforcement are in the Polygraph Unit. They adminsiter the lie detector tests.<P>So, having read all of this, what now? Well, we have had a cooling off period, and since we have a pleasant evening already planned, today seems like a good day to call and test the waters. I liked the idea of the card and flowers, but Valentines Day I sent her the card, flowers and chocolates. (custom packed, all milk chocolate and nuts, her favorites). Those things were gifts, but if I do it now, it will be like trying to buy my way out. And I'm still not sure if I did something wrong.<P>When someone declines an invitation and says I have "other plans", it seems to me that implies that she doesn't wish to share exactly what those plans are. At least that is what I hear. Am I reading too much into this? "Other plans" covers a lot of territory, it could be something very personal, or it could mean she is already socially encumbered for that evening. <P>In every relationship, there is one who does the kissing and one who permits himself or herself to be kissed. That is pretty much the way it has been with us, I've kissed her, but she doesn't kiss back. We get along because she expects to be entertained, and I love the performing arts. She is very well read, and when we get into social settings, you would think she never met a stranger. She knows something about just about everything, and can hold a conversation on any subject. Above all, she is good company.<P>Well, I can't put off making that call much longer. I'll post the results later.<P>Again, thanks to everyone. <P>Bumper <P>