<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumperii:<BR><B>We ... have been dinner companions followed by some kind of entertainment at least once a week since last March. ... We have never been to a dance club ... <P>Last Saturday Night, a local DJ ran an Oldies night ... I really liked the idea, ... and suggested it as a date to my lady friend. She didn't share my enthusiasm. She said she really didn't enjoy dancing, and besides, she already had "other plans" for the evening. Then she goes on to tell me I should feel free to go to this oldies night with the others.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How to read this? In a whole year of what <I>seems</I> exclusive dating, you have never initiated a discussion about moving the relationship to another level. She has never suggested dancing. So you know it can't be high on her list. <P>Now you make a suggestion that indicates that instead of <I>just you two</I>, it's going to be a <I>group</I> situation involving an activity she has never previously demonstrated enthusiasm for (you don't even know if she does it--after a year!). That's interpreted as a tacit attempt to <I>step back</I>. After all, you'll likely dance with <I>others</I> at this event.<P>And when she mildly balks, you probably push a bit, and then she says <I>"you go"</I>, and then you <B><I>do</I></B>? <P>She was trapped into "borderline" behavior because you hadn't been moving things along, and she <I>couldn't</I>, for one reason or another, directly <I>call you</I> on it. Neither of you have been very skillful, or very direct here.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 23, 2001).]

Call her, see if she wants to go see Cabaret. Maybe talk it over. That's fine.<P>But you probably did nothing to get that kind of treatment from her. Let's hope it's a one time thing. If it isn't, then you have a different thing to deal with. But remember, everyone screws up every now and then.<BR>

Bumperi,<P>I think you might have gotten me confused with my friend Sisyphus on your last post. I think he picked up on that too.<P>In any case, I can't say I warm up too well to people who can't find the courage to say exactly what is on their mind. I don't blame you for feeling dread. <P>The biggest red flag I could ever encounter would be from a person who can't take responsibility for the things they say and do. Even worse are people who have too hard a time extending themselves to bridge the distance over a misunderstanding, no matter how upset they might be. Or, at the very least, be able to express exactly what their source of displeasure might be. These two qualities, IMO, can make or break any relationship. <P>You say she's good company, and that is ok. If it were me, I'm not sure I would consider anything more than a friendship with this kind of person. I'd say it is worth a shot to clear things up. Heck, maybe two or three more shots--but take some notes here...

Well, I didn't have to make the call after all. When I got to work, my secretary already had instructions for me to pick her up at work.<P>GF is in her usual impeccable attire but wearing sun glasses. She hops in the car and starts chatting about the Clinton pardon fiasco as though nothing happened. Keeps up the chat through dinner and we go to the theater without mentioning last week.<P>She is still wearing the sunglasses when we get into the theater lobby which is pretty well lit. I get a side view and realize that she is hiding a black eye. I havent't had a shiner like that since I was nineteen!<P>Well, the show was terrific, its a shame Cabaret is only in town for a week. This production really came to life. And GF was applauding enthustically. I'd have to say we were having a pretty good time.<P>Anyway, on the way home in the car, I told her I knew why she was wearing the sunglasses, and asked her if there was anything she wanted to talk about. She just said: "I don't want to discuss it with you." I didn't push the matter and we drove home in silence. <P>When we got to her house, she just said: "Thank you for a lovely evening." She let herself out of the car and walked up the steps and disappeared inside.<P>Sisyphus,<P>You are right that I didn't handle it very skillfully. It doesn't take a whole lot of skill to watch a person walk away from you in anger.<P>Bumper

Bumperii,<P>I am a woman with somewhat different advice to offer you. From your initial post in this thread, I couldn't tell if you wanted an exclusive relationship with her and if she knows you are dating her exclusively.<P>You wrote:<BR>"The latest incident concerns a woman I have been dating exclusively, but really have no way of knowing if she is dating others. We've been a pair at church, at numerous social affairs and civic events, and have been dinner companions followed by some kind of entertainment at least once a week since last March. We have even made a number of day trips to NYC to have dinner and see Broadway Shows. The relationship has not included a trip to the bedroom. We have never been to a dance club either." <P>I'm thinking she may have been wondering what is the status of your relationship with her. In a way it seems exclusive, since you only date her, but perhaps you should talk with her about the relationship and the two of you decide whether you will be an exclusive couple, or both be free to date others, or what. I think she might feel more secure knowing where she stands with you. <P>Also, rather than an apology, perhaps you could share with her how you felt about taking her to the oldies event -- that you really wanted her to be there with you, and although you understood her reasons for not going, you were disappointed and really missed her while you were there, if this was the case. <p>[This message has been edited by computergal (edited February 24, 2001).]

Bump,<P>To me she is starting to sound like high maintenance. She has an obvious shiner, but doesn't want to discuss it, has a great evening and then it sounds like she shuts the door in your face?<P>Time for frank discussion it sounds like to me.<P>Bob

I have to agree with RWD. From your description of your evening at the theatre with her, I suspect you're getting off lucky if your relationship ends right now. She doesn't want to discuss why she has a black eye??? Gotta mean someone punched her or something along those lines. I wouldn't have a problem telling anyone if there was another reason for it. Her lack of communication and the style of it when she does, says this lady has a lot of baggage. The way she totally swept the anger incident under the carpet tells me she doesn't care to work on it either. Everyone here knows communication is the name of the game and without good skills you're handicapped at best. I think you should walk before you get in any deeper.<p>[This message has been edited by Alizarin (edited February 24, 2001).]

Considering the time you've spent with her, you owe it to her to share your thoughts. About the oldies thing, about her black eye, about why she won't discuss it with you.<P>Yes, she apparently does have some problems. I wouldn't want it on my conscience to have caused her additional heartache and grief. Twice in my life I have felt compelled to end a close friendship. On both of those occasions, we had many discussions prior. Also, when I did finally make the decision to break, I told them exactly why and found a way to leave the door open in the future.<P>She may not know what she is doing wrong, or she may have some very valid reasons to be afraid. It sounds like she needs a friend. Still, by just walking away without a discussion, you are depriving her and yourself of a valuable learning experience.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Considering the time you've spent with her, you owe it to her to share your thoughts. About the oldies thing, about her black eye, about why she won't discuss it with you......<P> It sounds like she needs a friend. Still, by just walking away without a discussion, you are depriving her and yourself of a valuable learning experience. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you want to know something about a woman, ask another woman. <P>I told a female homicide detective about the black eye. Her response is: "Silly, if you didn't give it to her, she probably has two black eyes. A fifty year old woman wearing sunglasses after dark has either been beaten, is trying to hide drug abuse or she has had her eyes done, cosmetic surgery to remove the bags under her eyes." <P>Well, after church yesterday we went to the Blue Ox for brunch. Once again she says no when she means yes.<P>The waitress came to the table and started pouring her a glass of orange juice, GF stopped her. No surprise, she prefers tomato juice, but she told the waitress four times that it didn't matter, the orange juice was just fine. The waitress doesn't bat an eyelash, she leaves and brings back a fresh carafe of tomato juice. GF smiles pleasantly and says thankyou and compliments the waitress for her kindness.<P>I asked her why she did that instead of just asking for what she wanted. <P>GF explains it as noblesse oblige, the sophisticated thing to do. The waitress understood exactly what she was saying, and the tomato juice gets there without calling attention to the mistake of bringing the orange juice first, and she now has the opportunity to stroke the waitress with a compliment instead of a critcism. <P>That whole exchange was scripted, each of them understood exactly what the other was up to. How do women know these things? Back to my original point, what are the signals I'm missing?<P>Bumper <P><BR> <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumperii:<BR><B>How do women know these things? Back to my original point, what are the signals I'm missing?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, we could probably go into a whole thing about women's relative <I>sophistication</I> in interpersonal relations being used by the most skillful of them to <I>control</I> their men, with side trips to English novels of manners, <I>Dangerous Liasons</I>, and primates <I>lying</I> to one-another (nonverbally, as assessed by observing scientists) in order to obtain food or sex. <P>The bottom line is <I>do you want one that operates this way</I> or don't you? There are pros and cons. One pro would be that they'll hardly ever embarrass you in public. <P>P.S. Assuming she were getting her eyes done on that Monday, the doctor probably gave her a whole list of things <I>not</I> to do, and I would bet alcohol and second-hand smoke would be <I>don't</I>s.

Actually, I think your GF misread the waitress. The waitress could hardly get through the day if she spent time worrying about her customer's "intentions" and getting pissed if they changed their mind. She is paid to do what she is told. No more, no less. <P>I agree with Sisyphus. I'm not into having to read people's minds. Although, me and my friends laugh about the cultural differences between northerners and southerners. Any chance she is from the South? I'll tell you a funny story to illustrate the point...<P>When I was married, my husband and I went on a vacation with two other couples. One couple was from the North (Pittsburgh). Another couple was from a small town in Alabama. My ex was 50/50 (half his life in Boston, other half in FL). I'm originally from CA, so I have to translate as well. Anyway, the guy from Pittsburgh (Mike) is driving us in a van along a very curvy and hilly road going at a pretty fast speed. Me and my H were getting whiplash in the back seat, not to mention sick to our stomachs. So me, trying to be polite says loudly "Boy, these roads sure are curvy!". Mike, in the front driving, is completely oblivious and says "Yep, they sure are". Well, all of the other southerners in the car knew EXACTLY what I was saying. That was SOUTHERN for "SLOW DOWN!!". My ex, being the transplant, quickly noticed the pissed off faces of the southerners and said to Mike "hey, Mike. Slow down!". He says "Sure. No problem." We all had a good laugh later. <P>Other southernisms... "Boy you sure walk fast" is southern for "walk slower". "Boy, it sure is cold in here" is southern for "please turn up the heat/turn off the AC". And anything followed by "bless your heart" is an insult!!

TS is right about some of those southernisms. Although the one about "Bless your heart" can also be followed by, "That's such a big load, let me help you." So it can be used otherwise.<P>Bumper, your date needs to be sent to Communications 101. I wonder what's really going on.

Well, I am joining in on this thread way late in the game.<P>I agree with the women here who have said she should have told you her true feelings and she shouldn't be playing games. I think she is definitely a game player with the comments she said about the waitress incident. I wasn't sure if she was a game player until you told that story.<P>I also think that it is ok to call her and kindly ask about the miscommunication the first night. I don't think an apology was in order but just concern expressed over what happened.<P>At this point, I guess I wonder if you really like this woman and if you want to see her again. If you do, you need to call her and disuss all your concerns with her now. <P>If not, I think you should move on. The fact that she just left you in the car on your last evening out, leads me to believe that is an option you could easily pursue at this time. I'm not even sure you need to call her and tell her it is over between you because I'm not sure what you really had to begin with. <BR>

The only reason why I suggest having a discussion is because that is just part of my value system. It has nothing to do with the behavior of the other person. In fact, I'll submit that values really aren't values if they are contigent upon some else's behavior.<P>Once or twice I've had people I consider friends suddenly stop calling or won't return my calls and it really hurt. Not only that, I honestly had no idea what I did wrong. It is the coward's way out, IMO. <P>Regardless of the other person's behavior, as long as they were not hostile or dangerous, I would still feel compelled to communicate as best as possible why I could not be friends with them anymore in a respectful way. That is how I'd want to be treated.

TS:<P>I agree that a call either way is probably the best course of action to take at this point. If he wants to continue the relationship, a call to clear the air and try to work things out. If it is now over, I agree a call to put closure on the relationship is probably in order. However, if he is not comfortable with making that call, I think that would be ok given the way she reacted the last time around.

711,<P>I didn't mean to put you on the spot. We each are called to act according to our conscience. <P>I would be uncomfortable calling in his situation, but would do it anyway. The only time I may not make the call is if I felt that doing so would harm the other person and would not be constructive. That is just me. I'm sorry if it came out as condescending.

TS:<P>I didn't take it the wrong way. I think you are right regarding making the call even if it is uncomfortable.

Hi guys,<P>I've had lots to drink tonight, can barely type (refer my post he's coming for dinner) however, I fell like a nitwit magnet myselt.<P>I'm goig to respond to this tomorrow, and probably cringe in my beer (is that the expression!!!!!!!!!)<BR>or anm I slurring in my wirds!!!!!!!!<P>love and hugs to all<P>Jo xxxxxxxx

Hi everyone,<P>Well we had that meaningful conversation. GF called the office Wednesday afternoon to tell me that a two-fer-one offer at a favorite restaurant expires tonight. So I asked her if she wanted to go there for dinner. She replied, "Only if you want to." Apparently that means I want to. Sooo, off to Judy's for dinner and chit-chat.<P>When I told her that I had been dating her exclusively, she answered: "Well I certainly didn't ask you to do that. I haven't told you not to date anyone else." <P>So I asked her what the anger was about with the oldies night. She said we've been out on enough dates, she didn't really want me out in a social (maybe even romantic) setting with other women around. She said I'm old enough to know that. Now I know I'm in trouble. Turns out the "other plans" was an outpatient visit to a plastic surgeon. Within about ten minutes, it is obvious that she was disappointed with the flowers, candy and card on Valentine's Day. She was hoping for an engagement ring.<P>Eleven months of dates, she has never responded to a kiss, never hugged back, never invited me in for the proverbial cup of coffee. It would have been nice if she had shown a little affection.<P>OK, that wasn't very good time to point that out. She suggested that I try Puppy Palace. So, I guess this relationship has about run its course. <P>Thanks to everyone for responding to this thread. I wonder if I'll ever understand the language women speak.<P>Bumper<P>

So, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't? She doesn't ASK you to be exclusive, yet she expects something more than flowers and candy on Valentine's day? <P>This is passive-aggressive. She doesn't have the courage to say what she wants, and is happily letting you take the blame for whatever you'll accept. <P>See? Having the discussion was a good idea!<P>Puppy palace...whatever. I'm celibate, and I still wouldn't say that to a guy!! If she had moral reasons for not showing "affection" she could have told you that too!! Sheesh!<BR>On the other hand, there is something very refreshing about a dog. They don't play games. When they want something they will show you in no uncertain terms...<P>This woman spells T-R-O-U-B-L-E to me. You're right. It HAS run it's course if she can't be honest. <P>All women are not like this.