I have been dealing with a problem I created in the course of solving another problem, and the pressure is getting to me. The details are here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002027.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002027.html</A> . Briefly, I did a thing that needed to be done as quietly as I could do it, and my XW has cut off all contact, while I still have financial details to clean up regarding the divorce. <P>I dropped an e-mail to the XBIL who is not terribly close to her (and with whom I got along well) several days ago, but I haven't heard back from him. Presumably, he doesn't want to cooperate.<P>Today, rather than blowing a fuse, I wrote the following e-mail to her rather forbidding father (my XFIL):<BR>__________________________________<BR>XFIL,<P>I hope this letter finds you in good health and enjoying good times. As you may already know, I am having to nag <XW> to complete some details of the untangling of our financial lives. She is not responding, and it has become a problem. I am well aware of the irony in this, since I was not exactly the picture of availability in the months after the divorce. <P>Without response from her, I cannot even feel confident sending things for her signature and return in a self-addressed stamped envelope (for instance, a car title that I would not want to release unless I knew it was coming back--and that I need signed over in the next 30 days or so). Also, she has information in her possession that I will need in order to do some calculations necessary to finish up, and this information is contained only in a file that I gave her in October with the expectation of having it returned. <P>I'm not sure what kind of picture you have with respect to how things were between me and <XW>, before or after the divorce. I assure you I have done nothing out of line, with the exception of being very unavailable for a while. If you have any information to the contrary, please contact me directly so that I can present my side. <P>Of course, it has been a long time since you and I have been in contact. A lot of things have happened. It is unfortunate that I must come to you, as head of the family, to ask your help in this matter. But I hope you will agree that helping your daughter and I shake the dust of each other off our shoes will be beneficial to her, regardless of whether you feel I deserve the slightest bit of consideration. I therefore hope that you will see your way clear to exercise your influence over <XW> in order to motivate her cooperation toward a resolution of these remaining affairs. I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you for your consideration.<P>Respectfully,<BR> <BR>Sisyphus<BR>_______________________________________<P>It's tough to have to do something like this. I wish I didn't have to. Any support would be appreciated.

Sisyphus,<P>I don't think sending this will be a wise move (hope you didn't). If ya did, I hope for the best. Getting others involved in the marriage/divorce is bad news (learned the hard way!). Best to keep trying to reach her. Sending things registered mail may help. In what way will the details effect you both? Who stands to gain or lose if things go "undone"? If it is her, then write a letter telling her you tried and tried, but you heard no reply so this is what you are going to do. See if that works.<P>I just think that even if her father gets involved, it won't speed things along and may in fact only slow them down.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>Getting others involved in the marriage/divorce is bad news (learned the hard way!).<P>I just think that even if her father gets involved, it won't speed things along and may in fact only slow them down.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, things are <I>stopped</I> right now, so it doesn't make much difference. <P>Up until now, no one else has been involved. I could, if I wanted, contact a plethora of friends and family of hers. I have decided instead to go right to the key authority figure (with that briefest of failed detours to the formerly-sympathetic [in general attitude--not consulted with respect to the D situation] brother).<P>His word is law to her. She wouldn't be happy, but she wouldn't defy him. <P>I don't like having to move into a "Plagues of Egypt" approach, but the nice route hasn't been working. <P>Most of the things are needed <I>by me</I>, but there are some that <I>she</I> needs as well, to relieve her of certain liabilities.<P>I suppose I could look into formally <I>reneging</I> on her car loan (that my name is on), putting her in the spot of having to scramble for new financing or having them come pick it up. A black mark on both our credit records. But she's been supposed to refinance that since the divorce, and hasn't made a move. I've been more than accomodating in not pursuing her to do that, and have even offered to give her a generous price for it and lift the albatross from around her neck. Nada.

Sisyphus,<P>I agree with Mike. As a general rule, bringing other people into the pot will just spoil things. Also, you need to bear in mind that the man you wrote to is HER father, and thus is very likely to listen to and believe her side of the story. In affect, you are asking her own father to go against her, and that is just not probably a wise request. IMHO, you are much wiser to realize that you VERY MUCH contributed to this complete lack of communication and keep this between the two of you.<P>Sis, you are a lawyer-type (heehee), are these things that she needs to send you discussed at all in any legal agreements between you two? If not, well then shame on you If so, well then why don't you send her a much formal, legal demand? Could you have YOUR lawyer contact HER lawyer and get the info that way (i.e., she give the documents to her lawyer, who gives them to your lawyer, who gives them to you)? Can a legal demand letter be written? I also like Mike's suggestion of sending her a letter, return receipt, that basically says, "I have tried and tried to contact you about the refinancing of the car. It is your responsibility to get it refinanced and out of my name. Thus, if your car is not refinanced by XXX, I will either repossess it or stop making payments." You're the lawyer, my friend, you say it in legalese!<P>Sisyphus, you know we are always here to support you, but there is one major thing here that I think you need to wrestle with and start to accept: she does not want to communicate with you in any way anymore, and she WILL NOT do it. You can not force her, you can not make her want to, and if you act in such a way that she "has to" say or do something, are you acting the way that you want to? Are you being the person you want to be, if you act in such a way to "make" someone talk to you? Just think about that a bit, and start to accept and embrace the joys that ARE in your life--not the least of which are the anonymous friends here!<P>{{{{{Sis}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<BR> <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I'm with Mike. I don't think this is a good idea. Certified letter. Tell her she has x number of days to take care of the matter or you will have no choice but to turn the matter over to your attorney and ask for her to be court ordered to take care of the matter plus pay your legal fees.<P>I just don't handle games like this well. Your responsibilities are your responsibilities. And if you mess up, you have to fix it plus get yourself out of hot water.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>are these things that she needs to send you discussed at all in any legal agreements between you two? Can a legal demand letter be written? if you act in such a way that she "has to" say or do something, are you acting the way that you want to? Are you being the person you want to be, if you act in such a way to "make" someone talk to you? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, what I've done is both a stronger and more gentle approach than going back to court to try to enforce that agreement. Stronger in that she would accept her father's influence before that of a court, and gentler in that he is, after all, her father, not a stranger deputy with a badge and gun. <P>As to doing things that "force" her to do something, isn't that what a court is going to do? Why should it make a difference to me anymore as long as it's not illegal or violent, and gets the job done.<P>I can't be the person I want to be until this is <I>over</I>, and I'm <I>sure</I> she has the same problem, she's just prevented from moving forward right now by resistance from some quarter of her psyche, and it appears that movement will <I>not</I> be driven directly by me, so I need an ally.<P>Her father and I have had a strange, strained relationship, and I was actually <I>the goat</I> in his book a couple of years ago for acting to defuse a situation where cops were on hand ready to haul one or more of them (him mainly) to jail! (supposedly I deprived him of a <I>civil rights</I> lawsuit--<I><B>NOT!</I></B>--all the ILs were <I>way out of line</I> in a restaurant dispute with an admittedly <B>touchy</B> restauranteur--numerous other patrons actually <I>applauded</I> our ignominious exit). Of course, it didn't help that when XW was making a call to him for his birthday a few months later, I asked XW (such that he could overhear me) "Ask him if he's old enough now to know how to act in a restaurant?"<P>Nonetheless, I do know that when she told him she wanted to divorce me, he said, in effect, "You realize that you are about to divorce a pretty good guy!" High praise, coming from him.<P>I have no way of predicting. This was simply, in my book, the logical next step; superior to, say, showing up at her home or office, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cinderella:<BR><B>I'm with Mike. I don't think this is a good idea. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Geez, I'm down <I>3-1</I> here. <I>3-2</I> if you count my GF, but she <I>is</I> a fairly gentle discourager of <I>inertia</I> in this situation.<P>I suppose there is no defense, it was just another ill-considered move in a game where I've been behind from the very start. I feel like I'm doomed by my own sense of decency. But she probably thinks I'm anything but <I>decent</I>. And, after all this, I do <I>still</I> care what she thinks of me.<P>Did I mention I CC:'d XW on the e-mail? <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 22, 2001).]

Great advise from sotired2000 & faithfulwife. I do agree with them. I would advise the same thing, but funny, I would then have trouble heeding my own advise. I too, care about what my STBXH thinks about me.<P>I have learned that getting others involved is not a good thing. I just spoke with one of our close friends, he was painfully honest with me. Even though I hadn't shared with him recently or during my most low points, he made a few "suggestions". Before I uttered a word, he told me that he didn't want to hear any "negativity". I believe it wears people down. It isn't lack of support, I know that this friend in particular cares a great deal about me. <P>That is one of the best things about this forum, everyone here is in the same boat and so understanding. We are here for you Sisyphus. <BR>

Sisyphus-<P>Well, I don't want to be another one to just jump on the band wagon - especially since I have never posted to you before, so I hope I can add some new perspective.<P>First, don't be too hard on yourself. We all get very frustrated and want to effect change in any way we can. <P>Next, think about it this way. By offering all these "easy" alternatives to your x-wife you are enabling her to avoid the reasonable consequences of her actions. While at the same time not getting the response you want. And I would bet that this was pretty much your role in the marriage too (I know from experience). I always expected that if I made things easy for H, smoothed all the rough spots, took on more than my share he would (should!) respond by meeting my needs. Lo and behold - didn't happen. Only now (too late) do I understand why.<P>Honestly, if you were pursuing me in this way I would feel patronized and controlled - if she is choosing to not contact you that is her choice. I think the only way you can really get over this is to let go. Send your certified letter, set your timelines and boundaries, and follow through. And in the meantime, ask yourself what you are after. Do you just want your financial stuff resolved? Or are you really after re-establishing some connection with your X?<P>If it is truly the former, there are cleaner ways to go about this. If it is the latter, well, we all feel (or have felt) this way at some point and I have great empathy for you. Just try to keep it separate from your business affairs together.<P>take care of yourself,<BR>Starpony

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by REJECTED:<BR><B>I would advise the same thing, but funny, I would then have trouble heeding my own advise. I have learned that getting others involved is not a good thing.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for being here for me (and Starpony too). The score is now <I>5-2</I>. As to whether it was a <I>good thing</I>, how could the situation have gotten any worse? (I guess I may find out now). <P>I <I>do</I> want this closure. I would even trade my <B>poison-pill CD-ROM</B> for it ... but that would be blackmail, so <I>I</I> can't be the one to bring it up. I have to hope she asks for more of <I>her</I> stuff that she has heretofore left behind with me as insignificant.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 22, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Starpony:<BR><B>By offering all these "easy" alternatives to your x-wife you are enabling her to avoid the reasonable consequences of her actions.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm starting to roll on consequences! The last plague is a <B>career-buster</B>. I hope we don't get there...<P>

Sisyphus,<P>You are a hoot, buddy! Okay, from one abuse survivor to a lawyer, let's see if we can communicate (haha).<P>This is an issue between you and your XW, thus it should be handled between you and your XW. Bringing other people into the mix, just confuses things and confuses people.<P>When I wrote that you can't "force" her or "make" her, what I meant was that in your heart of hearts you want to make her respond to you--even if the response is an angry one, at least it's a response. But she is unwilling to react or reply to you, and there is nothing in your power that can make another person act or feel a certain way, so stop trying. She does not want to talk, speak, write or be in touch with you, so accept that fact. <P>HOWEVER, if there are certain things that she is legally bound to do, because they are in a written agreement or because they are something she agreed to do, that is BUSINESS. She does need to take care of business like an adult. She can not ignore business. Yet she can take care of business while simultaneously not communicating with you. For example, she could drop off the requested documents while you are at work, and leave them in your mailbox; or she could drop them off at her attorney's and let her attorney tell you that the documents are there. <P>Therefore, she DOES NOT have to communicate, reply, write, or speak to you, but she DOES have to comply with the business that she agreed to. I could not agree with Starpony more. You are offering her these "easy" alternatives and giving her the exact excuse she needs to not follow through. Yes, it is true that the courts will "force" her to comply with her business agreements with you, but the courts will not "force" her to talk to you, respond to you, communicate with you, or react to you. <P>I am so sorry, Sisyphus, but you have got to accept the fact. She WILL NOT be responding to you. <P>{{{{{Sis}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

It seems that you have already sent the email, so whether you should have done it or not is moot.<P>I have seen both sides of the in law thing. My sister's ex husband (also my best friend), has an excellent relationship with my whole family. Much better than the relationship my sister has with all of us. Although I don't know whether this would extend to things regarding the divorce. Their's is almost 10 years old now, so the chances of that are slim.<P>My own situation seems to be more similar to yours. My stbx-mil said something similar to what your fil said. Alas, it seems that over the past year her attitude has changed. I would no longer dream of asking her to intervene on my behalf with stbx.<P>I think the family will handle this as your ex has handled it so far. I would not expect any response. I am afraid that you will need to get the legal guys involved. I letter from your lawyer to hers or maybe even a declaration to hold her in contempt may go much further than your present actions. It is amazing to see the behavior change when I put things in a declaration and her lawyer (now former lawyer) saw it. Worth a try, anyway.<P>Good Luck. If both sides were reasonable, this board would not exist.

Last night during some brainstorming, it came to mind that a couple of other things might be at work here. <P>First, my depression and avoidance that kept me from responding to her ... resulted in her having to come to my building and have the concierge ring me up; and then I did indeed come down and deal with her. She may have interpreted that as <I>imperious</I> rather than for what it was, especially since I did my best to put on a brave front, as did she. <P>Thus, it occurs to me that she might be waiting for me to reciprocally visit her at home or work. But what's sauce for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander. A woman appearing unbidden is much less threatening (my experience with interim XGF and her arriving to hold a steak knife at her own throat notwithstanding). So I'm chary of doing it. <P>Second, remember that I <I>didn't</I> respond when she wanted me to keep the Xpooch over the the Christmas holiday. Boarding him likely was at some expense, and he handles being boarded poorly (very upset and clingy when picked up--and presumably most of the time while boarded). So there may be payback there. <P>It would appear I have not been the perfect (doormat) X on about three fronts. Four, if you count my now going over her head to her father. I'll give this one a little time to sink in before I think what the next click of the ratchet will bring.

OK, so I just sent yet another message:<P>XW,<P>Since I haven't heard from your father, I'm assuming that no help will be forthcoming from that quarter. I'll therefore back off. I'm sorry for going over your head like that. I seem to be doing that a lot lately. Due to Marriagebuilders.com, I believe my feelings are an open book. I wish I knew some of yours. There are things I would like to say to you directly that I think it would gratify you to hear. But without knowing more, I won't be that intrusive.<P>Please do keep in mind that I do need that title done within the next 30 days or so. I'm just going to lay low until the need becomes more acute. Once the Mazda tag is in real danger of going out of date, I'm going to be forced to take some sort of action to get you to do it. I'll be sorry if it comes to that.

Sisyphus,<P>Let me ask you just a couple rhetorical questions here - don't even respond to these, just think about them:<P>1) Pretend you are 10 years in the future. Now focus on looking back to this time in your life. Just how important are the "issues" between you and your wife that you are concerned with now, to your overall life?<P>2) Are you "really" just contacting (or attempting to contact) your X to address these issues, or may there be another reason? Like missing her for instance? Wanting to talk to her? To see what is going on in her life?<P>3) What if I told you that even if you get all these issues taken care of, you are still going to feel the same? In other words, nothing will change except things may be a little more tidy.<P>I have been where you are at (and my wife is still there). What is more is that I have read many times here on this board about people going through what you are... We all think that if we "clean things up" and finalize things, we will move on with our lives and leave all this pain and hurt behind. But you know what, I don't think it happens that way. we can finalize all the things we want - but our feelings still exist. I had "closure" one time in a relationship (or what I thought was closure at the time) a long time ago, and you know what? Years later all the feelings came back to haunt me. Why? I think it was because I "closed" them down - I did not live through them - I buried them.<P>What does all this mean? I guess what I am trying to say is that if the issues are of dire consequences or if they are directly responsible for hindering your life then address them however needed (even legally). But if they are loose ends, don't be so concerned with them. Don't let yourself get caught up in the details - it will only ruin "your" days. If you want to talk to your wife - if you miss her than admit it to yourself. I do all the time! Whenever I start dwelling on small details in the divorce, I stop and ask myself "why"? Almost always it is because I miss her. Once I admit that to myself, I am able to be sad for a little while - then let it pass.<P>I don't know if this helps at all. I hope it does.<P>God Bless,<BR>MIke<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Well, ST2K, I just <I>channeled</I> her. And it wasn't pretty: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002269.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002269.html</A> <P>I probably owe more apologies than she does. Say a little prayer for me. I'm still going through a lot here.

Hi Sisyphus,<P>I'm sorry, really I am, but I agree with everyone else. It does YOU no good to involve others, especially her side of the family. No matter what they think of the situation, or you personally, they will always support her. Stinks sometimes, but that's the way it it.<P>Like you, I have tried to do the right thing, (with a little 'slip-up' here and there!!!!) tried to be nice, tried to be forgiving and understand what has happened, only to have sand kicked in my face time and time again.<P>What I have realised is that my ex-h also doesn't want to speak to me, or deal with me. (And not only since the last incident but before that too.) And that still hurts, BUT, with realisation and acceptance, there also comes freedom. The freedom to start to move on, in a positive and meaningful way.<P>I think this is what is happening for you. I also tried to get him to talk to me, anyway and anyhow. I tried to remain friendly and calm, and generally only talked about the children or our work, but I wanted the communication channels left open. He has made it quite clear that he doesn't feel that way. I was making vain attempts to keep him in my life. But he didn't want to be there. In his mind, he is there for the children, but not for me. It hurts, but that's the way it is. I guess I thank my lucky stars that he does want to be involved in the children's lives. That can only be good for them. But I have also learned to separate that fact, and myself, from him. In his mind, I think that we are two separate issues. The children are one thing, and I am another. In his mind, we are not lumped in together at all. By that, I mean that the children mean a lot to him, but *I* don't.<BR>And once I realised that, and accepted that, it made moving on a lot easier. It's not easy, but easier.!!!!<P>I think that this is your time of starting to let go. We all hang on, in many varied ways and we hang on for different reasons. Mainly I suspect because we can't believe what has happened, and that someone else is calling ALL the shots. We have no control over what has happened, and what is continuing to happen to our lives. I know that was true for me. But once I took control of my own life, and accepted what had happened (albeit without knowing why) things started to get a bit better.<P>I hope for you that she does respond and do what she needs to do. To put your mind at ease and to start to sever links. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but when I look back, all those things left undone just leave the connection still there. And that is painful for us.<P>You have been there for me so often, with such wise words. I hope I can now give you some support. I know what it's like to lose patience. That's when we do the things we end up regreting. When you are going to do something, like email her, think of me. (If I can be so bold!!!) Think of all the stupid things I have done, and the stupid things I have said, just because I lost patience. And then think to yourself, "if Jo would have done this, I'm NOT going to!!!!!!!!"<P>I'm not being hard on myself, but I can relate to this so well.<P>Believe me, I do regret most of them. I have forgiven myself, and apologised to him, but I still regret them.<P>If you want to talk to someone who has done it ALL wrong, then I'm your girl........<P>Take care of you, and any letters in future, get your lawyer to do it!!!!!!!!!<P>big hugs my friend<P>Jo xxxxxx

ps<P>I know this has happened because of the other incident, but I still believe you did the right thing there. You did what had to be done.

I got this back from XFIL: <BR>"Address all your inquires to XW's lawyer; thanks"<P>I couldn't expect more, because he's used to a dictaphone. Nonetheless, it's probably a sign that I got some help from a tough old pragmatist, because I bet XW was arguing for contunued silence. Also, he's likely footing the bill.<P>It'll have to do. <BR>