My wife and youngest daughter moved out last Friday night. My wife and I had been going to a marriage counselor for about 3 months. <BR>The diagnosis of the counselor is that I see things too black and white and my wife suffers from codependency. <BR>For weeks I have tried to suppress any expression of an opinion in an effort to "keep the peace". On Friday night, I learned that my daughter was having problems at school. My wife was intentionally excluding me as she had many times in the past from involvement with our children. <BR>On Friday night I stated two sentences indicating that I felt I as a parent had a right to be involved in decisions affecting our daughter. My wife flew into a rage and started pushing and shoving me. I folded my arms to avoid her blows but when I was about to fall down I grabbed her hands briefly pleading with her to stop. Our daughter came rushing down from her bedroom. The end result was that my wife and daughter quickly packed up a few things and it turns out went to our pastor. <BR>Our pastor and his wife without calling me or finding out any of the facts from my perspective put up my wife and daugther in a motel. They are refusing to tell me where my wife is but working with my wife to get an apartment. <BR>I am now being treated like a criminal by my pastor. It seems like what I have to say to the pastor and his wife are meaningless. I receive calls from the pastor's wife telling me that someone will be coming this morning to take items that my wife and daughter have requested. <BR>I have never been physically abusive to my wife. She grew up as a child however where physical and sexual violence was a real problem. <P>I am really hurting. You would think that after 22 years of marriage we could at least discuss a topic even when we disagree! I am also hurt in that I am treated as a criminal when I know and God knows I didn't respond back to the abuse I was receiving. <P>My questions are:<BR>(1) What is the chance that separation results in eventual reonciliation?<BR>(2) I can only "fix me" and respond as I know is right. When is divorce considered the best route to pursue?<BR>(3) What should I do during our separation to try to help the situation?<BR>(4) I feel violated and invalidated as a husband and father by my pastor and his wife. <BR>My wife has a long history of using the "victim" card to escape her responsibility in our marriage. Some of the traits she demonstrates is a demanding desire to be in control at all times. How should I respond to someone with these traits?<BR>(5) I have learned that my wife is indicating that she responded physically because I violated her "boundaries". How do I honor her demands that I become opinionless if that is the boundary she establishes? <P>Any advice you could offer would be very much appreciated. <P>David<BR> <P>------------------<BR>

hello David, <P> Are you a betrayed spouse??<P>------------------<BR>Deb

This is always a tough situation...<BR>...when separation has ocurred.<P>I understand exactly how it feels to be accused of abuse...<BR>...my my filed a "harassment" police report against me... lied to the hilt...<BR>...and when I went in... to counter-file... I was made to feel like a brutal criminal...<BR>...and that anything I was saying was coming from a wife-beater and rapist.<P>Today's society is very sensitive about aabused women and children... to the point that illigitimate claims can be made very easily.<P>I feel you should get in touch with your minister and... by talking frequently... express "your side" of the story! If this is the primary contact through which you can communicate with your W and child... you need to improve this.<P>Inform whoever you can... that you are working on Plan A. Do start on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>Get her definitions of her "boundries" down in writing...<BR>...they need to be examined by all... as to whether they are controlling or not.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

Dave,<P>Forget about the business of being allowed to defend yourself in your own home, particularly when your wife is attacking you. You only had one chance, and that was to retreat yourself. The courts have seen too many women come before them with their faces scarred, swollen and broken because a man responded to a stinging slap with a bone crushing punch. Fact is, most often when a woman strikes a man, the blow is more of an insult than an injury.<P>They have already posted some suggestions that you might read about a Plan A and Plan B, and there are numerous articles on this site that will be helpful to you.<P>Soooo, welcome aboard, but in the future, I recommend that you take the responsibility to make sure the violent physical contact is avoided, even if you have to run away. Even when you do so much as try to restrain her, the legal deck is stacked against you.<P>Bumper

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumperii:<BR><B>Dave,<P>Forget about the business of being allowed to defend yourself in your own home, particularly when your wife is attacking you. You only had one chance, and that was to retreat yourself. The courts have seen too many women come before them with their faces scarred, swollen and broken because a man responded to a stinging slap with a bone crushing punch. Fact is, most often when a woman strikes a man, the blow is more of an insult than an injury.<P>They have already posted some suggestions that you might read about a Plan A and Plan B, and there are numerous articles on this site that will be helpful to you.<P>Soooo, welcome aboard, but in the future, I recommend that you take the responsibility to make sure the violent physical contact is avoided, even if you have to run away. Even when you do so much as try to restrain her, the legal deck is stacked against you.<P>Bumper</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Thanks for the advice. I'll see if I get another opportunity to apply this idea.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2ndchoice:<BR><B>hello David, <P> Are you a betrayed spouse??<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I feel very much betrayed by my spouse, daughter and pastors. I am having difficulty understanding the presumption of guilt also. My wife is now trying to convince some of our common friends that I am a very terrible person also. <BR>

David,<P> Well, that would surly make you feel betrayed also, but does she have a new man friend??<P>------------------<BR>Deb

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B>This is always a tough situation...<BR>...when separation has ocurred.<P>I understand exactly how it feels to be accused of abuse...<BR>...my my filed a "harassment" police report against me... lied to the hilt...<BR>...and when I went in... to counter-file... I was made to feel like a brutal criminal...<BR>...and that anything I was saying was coming from a wife-beater and rapist.<P>Today's society is very sensitive about aabused women and children... to the point that illigitimate claims can be made very easily.<P>I feel you should get in touch with your minister and... by talking frequently... express "your side" of the story! If this is the primary contact through which you can communicate with your W and child... you need to improve this.<P>Inform whoever you can... that you are working on Plan A. Do start on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>Get her definitions of her "boundries" down in writing...<BR>...they need to be examined by all... as to whether they are controlling or not.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I met with my pastor yesterday and told him my side of the story. He indicated that he doesn't consider me a terrible person and that my wife didn't say I was cruel but that she needed space from me. I feel betrayed however in that our pastors our using church funds to provide shelter, act as intermediary between my wife and daughter and myself, and assist my wife in whatever she needs to create a secret residence. <P>One of our pastors just left with my wife and daughter as they came with a U-haul trailer to take some of the things she needs. <P>While my situation does not involve an affair (at least I don't think so), it seems like Plan A will be difficult. One quote from Plan A seems to apply: In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again." It seems like healing can only occur if my wife gives up her controlling tendencies that she disquises as "boundaries". <P>I have a joint counseling session scheduled with our counselor and two pastors and my wife on Wednesday. I will try to obtain clarification of what boundaries she would like to see during the session.<P>Thanks for your insights.<P>David<P>

Hi David, Because if that is not the case. i will tell you about my H and our 20 year marriage. I am also codependant. want to help eveyone. Everyone Knew that can I say "Sweet little Deb. Helper of all emotions of broken people." My H was a controler<BR> He was boss of home. hurt feelong with his "stern approach" broken hearts from kids. They did not tell him anything becasu they were afriad of his reaction. BLOWING UP, GIVING LECTURES, ETC. He did SLAP ou then 16 year old D a couple of years ago. He layed down the law and since he was a work A he expected me to carry through with hid decisions. Not Good because I am not stern, Hate broken hearts, always concerned about my childrens personal and emotional safety. Not that I allow them to do whatever they pleased, no way. I just kept "secerets" from him. He was not a negotiater it was his way or, I always give in, i never get to have any say in how the kids are raised blah blah blah<P> I even tried to negotiate with him once and he got sooooo angry he went into the garage and broke his precious hand hitting a stud. It is so sad. <P> Accused me of always taking kids side. He was number 2 on my list.<P> That is how he felt but that is not how I felt. I was just trying to keep peace. I did not negotiate in front of the kids. I waited until we were alone.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>Deb

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bnbsdbG:<BR><B>David,<P> Well, that would surly make you feel betrayed also, but does she have a new man friend??<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She has mentioned that a man has been asking her out for coffee but she stated she had refused his advances. That was a few weeks ago. I am not sure what she is doing now.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dey1:<BR><B> She has mentioned that a man has been asking her out for coffee but she stated she had refused his advances. That was a few weeks ago. I am not sure what she is doing now.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I believe my wife and daughter are both codependent. My wife is extremely concerned about what my daughter desires and my daughter is very protective (even to the point of lying) of her mother. I haven't been able to find a method yet to express my opinion about anything that my wife will accept. I have tried writing, speaking very calmly, speaking after the lights are out so my facial expressions are not an issue, etc. without success. My wife seems to be so insecure about simply allowing me to express an opinion, she shuts down virtually any discussion except perhaps what flavor of ice cream, (mundane issues)etc. we are going to buy.<BR>It seems as though my wife and daughter had pre-arranged a plan so that when I made any statement they didn't want to allow, they would drive to our pastor who would start the process of separation. My pastor and his wife went through a separation period so they seem to think if a marital difficulty arises, that separation is the best answer. I am very fearful that the real issues causing our lack of communication will not be addressed and that we simply will not be reconciled.

Dey1,<P>I hurt for your situation and I hurt for your wife as having come from an abusive childhood myself...<P>is she in counseling for her past abuse?<BR>has she been dealing with that at all recently? if so then that may contribute a lot to what is happening now..<P>I am sure that she's having many internal struggles right now even if she isn't in counseling..<P>I will suggest a site that has been suggested before.. <A HREF="http://www.nhhi.net" TARGET=_blank>http://www.nhhi.net</A> it's a site for<BR>survivors of childhood abuse..they have an area for family members to post at..the rest of the area is for the suvivors themselves to post..I'd suggest that you go and read through some of the post, not just in the family section but also read some of the posts from those who are working on healing..<BR>and see what they are saying and maybe that can give you some insight on how you can help her and maybe better understand what you can maybe do to help...<P>there are some books posted there for survivors not many for those in their lives on how to help..but just reading up on the damage the abuse does..can maybe help you understand the depth of the damage done to the soul...

yes Dey 1,<P> I am the former 2ndchoice, and I also have some abuse in my past. Not necessarily from my H or parents(a small amount), but from my 1st H and others. So I am extremely!!! protective of my children. Thank you Thorned Roses. <P>------------------<BR>Deb

I would suggest a couple of things. Read one of Gottman's books and learn about "emotional flooding". Female survivors of abuse have been robbed of women's natural "flood-resisting" responses to difficult conversations. So you have to learn how to get into conversations with them in a very gentle way, and how to give them half hour breaks whenever they flood.<P>I would also suggest you go over on amazon.com and put the words "controlled separation" in a search for books (there's a book on it). Since you have a separation, you might as well learn if you can get it "under control" so that you are working toward reconciliation instead of just wandering around without a plan.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR><B>Dey1,<P>I hurt for your situation and I hurt for your wife as having come from an abusive childhood myself...<P>is she in counseling for her past abuse?<BR>has she been dealing with that at all recently? if so then that may contribute a lot to what is happening now..<P>I am sure that she's having many internal struggles right now even if she isn't in counseling..<P>I will suggest a site that has been suggested before.. <A HREF="http://www.nhhi.net" TARGET=_blank>http://www.nhhi.net</A> it's a site for<BR>survivors of childhood abuse..they have an area for family members to post at..the rest of the area is for the suvivors themselves to post..I'd suggest that you go and read through some of the post, not just in the family section but also read some of the posts from those who are working on healing..<BR>and see what they are saying and maybe that can give you some insight on how you can help her and maybe better understand what you can maybe do to help...<P>there are some books posted there for survivors not many for those in their lives on how to help..but just reading up on the damage the abuse does..can maybe help you understand the depth of the damage done to the soul...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for sharing your experiences. My wife is convinced that she is "completely healed" from her childhood abuses. We have had much counseling especially after working with the district attorney at the trial of her brother for sexual abuse. Not to minimize my faults, as I have not responded as tenderly as I should have at all times, I still see in her a rage that develops that is disproportional to the issue at hand. <P>I will check out the website you recommended.<P>Thanks again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>I would suggest a couple of things. Read one of Gottman's books and learn about "emotional flooding". Female survivors of abuse have been robbed of women's natural "flood-resisting" responses to difficult conversations. So you have to learn how to get into conversations with them in a very gentle way, and how to give them half hour breaks whenever they flood.<P>I would also suggest you go over on amazon.com and put the words "controlled separation" in a search for books (there's a book on it). Since you have a separation, you might as well learn if you can get it "under control" so that you are working toward reconciliation instead of just wandering around without a plan. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks. I'll check out Amazon.com. I have read numerous books but none by Gottman.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dey1:<BR><B>I feel very much betrayed by my spouse, daughter and pastors. I am having difficulty understanding the presumption of guilt also. My wife is now trying to convince some of our common friends that I am a very terrible person also. <P>I met with my pastor yesterday and told him my side of the story. He indicated that he doesn't consider me a terrible person and that my wife didn't say I was cruel but that she needed space from me. I feel betrayed however in that our pastors our using church funds to provide shelter, act as intermediary between my wife and daughter and myself, and assist my wife in whatever she needs to create a secret residence. <P>It seems as though my wife and daughter had pre-arranged a plan so that when I made any statement they didn't want to allow, they would drive to our pastor who would start the process of separation. My pastor and his wife went through a separation period so they seem to think if a marital difficulty arises, that separation is the best answer. I am very fearful that the real issues causing our lack of communication will not be addressed and that we simply will not be reconciled.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now compare these various excerpts with these others:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The diagnosis of the counselor is that I see things too black and white...<P>I have a joint counseling session scheduled with our counselor and two pastors and my wife on Wednesday. I will try to obtain clarification of what boundaries she would like to see during the session.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First, I want to say that I understand very well indeed the feelings of betrayal. I too have struggled with the pain caused by the presumption (or at least the suspicion) of guilt. And it’s not just pain either. This was the first time in my own experience that I became consciously aware of how much the way one is treated affects one’s view of oneself. I found it surprisingly easy to get sucked into thinking of myself as the monster I was made out to be, even though my rational faculties told me that I was no such thing. The whole experience is extremely disorienting.<P>Nevertheless, you need to be careful about that black-and-white thinking. It may <I>feel</I> like you have been betrayed by your family and your church (which is a brutally devastating blow to your support system), but you need to see the positive aspects to what is happening. In spite of your feelings, which are completely normal, and even expected under the circumstances, the situation is probably not as bleak as it feels. Your pastor and church may very well be doing the <I>best</I> things they could possibly do for you and your wife right now.<P>Think about this. Your wife ran to the church, not to the arms of another man, or to friends who will readily help her to rip you apart. She got help which allows her to feel safe. Feeling safe is <I>extremely</I> important for your wife right now, and crucial for the future of your relationship with her. The perception that the pastor is supporting your wife is all to your benefit, since you want your wife to feel that any mediator or counselor you deal with is on <I>her</I> side.<P>Believe me, you <I>need</I> an intermediary right now, and it sounds to me like you may have gotten <I>very</I> lucky, and found a good one. I think you have <I>no</I> idea how fortunate you are that you actually seem to have a chance at getting counseling at this juncture. I also suspect that you are going to have to slow your expectations way down. I hope you are a patient man. If not, you will need to learn patience right quick! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I haven't been able to find a method yet to express my opinion about anything that my wife will accept. I have tried writing, speaking very calmly, speaking after the lights are out so my facial expressions are not an issue, etc. without success. My wife seems to be so insecure about simply allowing me to express an opinion, she shuts down virtually any discussion except perhaps what flavor of ice cream, (mundane issues)etc. we are going to buy.<P>For weeks I have tried to suppress any expression of an opinion in an effort to "keep the peace".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have been there. I know this agony so very, very well. Experimenting with every possible nuance of approach and expression, seeking the magical formula that would let me communicate what I desperately wanted to communicate. Flayed for imagined slights, and hurting less from the abuse inflicted on me than from the knowledge that I had unwittingly hurt my wife.<P>Gradually withdrawing, in order to spare us both pain, only to discover that my silence allowed my wife’s paranoia toward me to grow even greater.<P>Unfortunately, there <I>is</I> no magic formula.<P>Sisyphus put his finger on the problem when he talked about “flooding”, but I suspect what you are dealing with is something even more serious. What Gottman calls “chronic flooding”, where even the <I>idea</I> of talking about an issue is enough to trigger the fight-or-flight response. Communication becomes totally impossible without a safe environment. You’ve got to hope and pray that your wife will feel sufficiently safe in the presence of her pastor(s) and counselor to allow some level of indirect communication. But it is not realistic to expect your wife to be able to communicate with you directly. Not now, at least.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My wife is convinced that she is "completely healed" from her childhood abuses. We have had much counseling especially after working with the district attorney at the trial of her brother for sexual abuse. Not to minimize my faults, as I have not responded as tenderly as I should have at all times, I still see in her a rage that develops that is disproportional to the issue at hand.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The deep wounds tend to remain invisible and largely untended while the superficial wounds are dealt with. And unfortunately, until your wife acknowledges those deep wounds, I don’t think she’s going to be able to work on your relationship. The mutually protective bond she shares with your daughter is troubling, since your wife may well be using her daughter in a narcissistic fashion that is extremely unhealthy for both of them. As long as you’re checking out books, I highly recommend The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment.<P>The <I>good</I> news is that if your wife can acknowledge the problem, the prognosis is fairly hopeful.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I am really hurting. You would think that after 22 years of marriage we could at least discuss a topic even when we disagree! I am also hurt in that I am treated as a criminal when I know and God knows I didn't respond back to the abuse I was receiving.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You need to hang onto that knowledge. Whatever happens, however much you may be treated like a criminal, you can rest in the knowledge that <I>God</I> knows the truth.<P>I thank God now that I was so scrupulous and circumspect in my own marriage, because without my integrity I don’t know how I could have handled the emotional devastation. Whatever you do, <I>don’t</I> let go of your integrity. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>(1) What is the chance that separation results in eventual reonciliation?<BR>(2) I can only "fix me" and respond as I know is right. When is divorce considered the best route to pursue?<BR>(3) What should I do during our separation to try to help the situation?<BR>(4) I feel violated and invalidated as a husband and father by my pastor and his wife. <BR>My wife has a long history of using the "victim" card to escape her responsibility in our marriage. Some of the traits she demonstrates is a demanding desire to be in control at all times. How should I respond to someone with these traits?<BR>(5) I have learned that my wife is indicating that she responded physically because I violated her "boundaries". How do I honor her demands that I become opinionless if that is the boundary she establishes?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>(1) Fair to good, I think, if you don’t push. But it will take time, and the results are out of your hands. Plan A is called for, and it is up to your wife whether she gets the help she needs.<P>(2) How seriously do you take your marriage vows?<P>(3) Do everything you can to make sure your wife knows you love her and that you are there for her, and beyond that <I>listen</I>. Your wife is likely to say a lot of things that make no sense, but it will do you no good to get defensive. Still, you’ve known her for a long time (probably no one knows her better), and you may be able to glean some insights into her <I>real</I> issues and needs. A crisis like this is a potential opportunity to see things that have previously been buried too deeply for anyone to see, since crises are often precipitated by something deeply buried coming close to the surface. However, <I>don’t</I> try to share your insights with your wife directly. She needs to work things out for herself, and you are probably the last person to be able to help her. Your goal should be to help <I>others</I> (your pastors and your counselor) help her, and meanwhile to get help for yourself. Both of you need to be strong, with clear boundaries and a clear sense of self, before you are going to be able to work on your relationship safely again.<P>(4) Feelings, as I have quoted before, are to be taken seriously, but not literally: no one but God can really invalidate you as a husband and father. A need to be in control is usually a sign of insecurity. Just remember that there is a difference between making compromises and compromising <I>yourself</I>, and try to accommodate your wife as much as possible; because chances are <I>she</I> doesn’t understand this difference and that is why she is so controlling. But hold fast to your integrity.<P>(5) Your wife does not demand that you become “opinionless”. It just feels like that to you because you can’t figure out what her boundaries really are. And that is very close to the heart of the problem. Her boundaries are not stable, and <I>she</I> doesn’t even know what they are. Still, until she gets better about this, you are better off talking about facts and feelings instead of opinions.<P>It is possible that I am way off base on a lot of this. I see so much of my wife in your account that it is difficult for me to separate my wife’s problems from your wife’s. If, for example, your wife actually has a mental disorder, such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, then the prognosis for your wife and your marriage is not very good. However, nothing you have written leads me to conclude that that is the case. At the moment, it seems to me that you’ve got good reason to hope that this could be a positive turning point in your marriage, as painful and slow as it may be.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 26, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> (1) Fair to good, I think, if you don’t push. But it will take time, and the results are out of your hands. Plan A is called for, and it is up to your wife whether she gets the help she needs.<P>(2) How seriously do you take your marriage vows?<P>(3) Do everything you can to make sure your wife knows you love her and that you are there for her, and beyond that <I>listen</I>. Your wife is likely to say a lot of things that make no sense, but it will do you no good to get defensive. Still, you’ve known her for a long time (probably no one knows her better), and you may be able to glean some insights into her <I>real</I> issues and needs. A crisis like this is a potential opportunity to see things that have previously been buried too deeply for anyone to see, since crises are often precipitated by something deeply buried coming close to the surface. However, <I>don’t</I> try to share your insights with your wife directly. She needs to work things out for herself, and you are probably the last person to be able to help her. Your goal should be to help <I>others</I> (your pastors and your counselor) help her, and meanwhile to get help for yourself. Both of you need to be strong, with clear boundaries and a clear sense of self, before you are going to be able to work on your relationship safely again.<P>(4) Feelings, as I have quoted before, are to be taken seriously, but not literally: no one but God can really invalidate you as a husband and father. A need to be in control is usually a sign of insecurity. Just remember that there is a difference between making compromises and compromising <I>yourself</I>, and try to accommodate your wife as much as possible; because chances are <I>she</I> doesn’t understand this difference and that is why she is so controlling. But hold fast to your integrity.<P>(5) Your wife does not demand that you become “opinionless”. It just feels like that to you because you can’t figure out what her boundaries really are. And that is very close to the heart of the problem. Her boundaries are not stable, and <I>she</I> doesn’t even know what they are. Still, until she gets better about this, you are better off talking about facts and feelings instead of opinions.<P>It is possible that I am way off base on a lot of this. I see so much of my wife in your account that it is difficult for me to separate my wife’s problems from your wife’s. If, for example, your wife actually has a mental disorder, such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, then the prognosis for your wife and your marriage is not very good. However, nothing you have written leads me to conclude that that is the case. At the moment, it seems to me that you’ve got good reason to hope that this could be a positive turning point in your marriage, as painful and slow as it may be.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 26, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you very much for your insights. I had dinner last night with one of my pastors and was very much encouraged that they are not blind to some of the truths of our situation. <P> I am very concerned about our youngest daughter and will try to find The Narcissistic Family iagnosis and Treatment. <P>Our meeting with the counselor we were meeting with before the separation and two of our pastors and my wife is scheduled for tomorrow morning. I'm hoping and praying that some root causes and not just symptoms will start to be identified. <P>You have described my wife in that her boundaries are not stable. She has made statements indicating that after 22 years I should know what her boudaries are and then refused to elaborate on what she would like me to change in. <P>You really have described so much of how I have been feeling and what I have been seeing. I so much appreciate your encouragement. I hope and pray that our separation will in fact be the beginning of a healing process of the real issues. It has been extrememly difficult during the last 20 years to relate to my daughters normally without my wife being on guard to defend them from what is apparently based on her fears that I am going to abuse them somehow. I think my youngest daughter senses this fear in my wife and often times uses my wife's fears to get what she wants. <P>I was shocked when my wife and daughter came with our music pastor to pick up some items on Saturday. My 17 year old daughter seemed to be very happy and showed no signs of remorse about what was happening. It sounds strange, but I actually think she is enjoying having her mother all to her self and also getting so much attention from others concerned for her welfare. <P>Hopefully I can gain some insight from the book you recommended on the Narcissistic Family. It seems as though the issues between my wife and I intensified dramatically when our oldest daughter left to go to university. <P>Well, I am starting to ramble. Again, thanks for taking time to share your insights. Your encouragement helps me to be more patient.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dey1:<BR><B> You have described my wife in that her boundaries are not stable. She has made statements indicating that after 22 years I should know what her boudaries are and then refused to elaborate on what she would like me to change in. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dey1 and GDP<P>I'm still here in the background, deeply touched by the insights you two are giving. This just hit me like a kick between the eyes. I've been dealing with women for a lifetime and have never understood what is expected of me, never known what the boundaries were. I've certainly been aware that when one crosses those boundaries, something unpleasnant is going to happen. My reaction has always been to withdraw into a safe corner like B.F. Skinner's chicken. <P>There are an awful lot of women who think in terms of "If you really loved me you would have_______(fill in the blank with her choice)_____." If the relationship is to last, the fact that this doesn't make any sense to me doesn't matter. What is important is for me to recognize is that it makes perfect sense to her. The fact that she cannot or does not articulate her expectations is no reason why you shouldn't know what they are. The logic is this: Her expectations are perfectly clearly in her mind, ergo they are perfectly clear in your mind.<P>It is almost as if she has a natural right to create new hoops for me to jump through, but she has no responsibility to show me where the hoops are. She will go so far as to deny that they even exist!<P>I too am a very opinionated person. At least at work, I've learned that one must make choices, you can either have an opinion, or you can voice an opinion, but you can't do both. At least not unless you want to risk finding your lunch in the toilet. <P>There is current thread where they are discussing equality in marriage. I thought about posting these rules over there:<P>1. The woman is ALWAYS right.<P>2. The woman is NEVER wrong. Not really.<P>3. If in doubt, refer to rules 1 & 2 above.<P>Even in reading the posts from women on this site, there is a pattern I see: "She is acutely aware of the effects that other people's actions have on her, but she rarely articulates what effect her actions have on other people. Even when she does recognize that her actions have an effect on others, she will rationalize, justify, minimize and deny. <P>The question is left, Are you willing to deal with it? Can you just let some things go without reacting to them? Is your marriage important enough to you that you are willing to try to manage around the conflicts?<P>We are in a game that cannot be won, only survived. And it is a game that must be played if mankind is to continue as a species on this planet.<P>Thinking of you guys!<P>Bumper<P>

Bumper,<P>Someone recently quoted that Nicholson line from <I>As Good As It Gets</I> where someone asks his misogynistic novelist character how he writes women so well, and he replies "Easy. I start with a man and take away <I>reason</I> and <I>accountability</I>."<P>I think if angry women wanted to turn it around, the characteristics removed would be <I>emotional intelligence</I> and <I>selflessness</I>. Both sides need to do better.<P>Nobody's right and nobody's wrong. It's just that it takes willingness to observe, think, communicate, change and accept--without which the gulf will never be bridged.