I am separated from my wife of 9 years. We have had a pretty decent marraige, but our relationship has deteriorated to separation due to bad behaviors associated to both of us being adult childs of divorce. Neither of us had positive role models in out childhood, and we have both suffered tremendously from it. We both have had problems with bad behaviors such as resentment, feelings of abandonment, rejection, etc. And they have carried over to our adult lives and we both replay them on a regular basis. It amazes me that we made it 9 years.<P>Neither one of us have committed any adulterous acts, or anything of that nature. We just are so alike in our bad behaviors, it has crippled our relationship.<P>We have been going to counseling seperately for over a year now, and together for a year before that.<P>I have made a tremendous amount of progress using a 6 step approach that my pastoral counselor and I came up with that is a tool I use to understand my bad behaviors and deal with them. My progress reports from my counselor have been very positive over the last 9 months, and I am well on my way to recovery.<P>My problem. My wife is still in somewhat denial/frustration over her problems, and feels that the solution is divorce. She is not progressing very much in therapy, and occasionally complains that her counselor is not much help to her. We have the same counselor and I am delighted with him, but I also put forth a considerable amount of effort. She doesn't. She goes to counseling, but doesn't work on her problems outside of counseling. <P>I don't want a divorce. I love my wife, and I am committed and dedicated to her, and have told her I will not sign any divorce papers.<P>Does anyone have any successful experiences short of intervention, that has had a positive outcome on a loved one or friend, in getting them a little further down the road to recovery. I am looking for ideas that will help me explore ways to help her get better. She does want to get better, but is easily frustrated.<P>I am willing to try accept any comments you have about my situation, and answer any questions you may have.<P>Thanks you in advance and God Bless each and every one of you<p>[This message has been edited by Frustrated_in_GA (edited March 01, 2001).]

Without more detail from you, no one can give you any ideas.

What kind of detail are you looking for?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frustrated_in_GA:<BR><B>We both have had problems with bad behaviors such as resentment, feelings of abandonment, rejection, etc.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, these don't look like bad behaviors, they are bad feelings. Are actual bad behaviors causing these feelings, or are these feelings arising from what would otherwise be innocent behaviors? <P>No one answers because no one really knows what's going on. <P>Bad: My wife does bad stuff and I do bad stuff and we don't get along.<P>Good: My wife tells me she thinks I'm cheating on her with the women I teach to play golf because she knows I lean over them when I show them the correct swing and she thinks I can't get that physically close without attraction developing. And I <I>don't</I> cheat but when she says these things I start screaming at her and she makes me leave the house and go sleep at my parents' place.<P>

Ok, I will try to answer that with an example.<P>My family was never close. The only time I got anything from my dad or stepmom was at Christmas, mainly becuase I was in boarding school. I almost never got birthday/valentines/easter/ cards.<P>So I grew up not feeling the need to celebrate special occasions. And you couldn't convince me that I needed to do it either. At least not until my counselor helped me make the connection between then and now. I almost never did it for the many girlfriends I had, and in 9 years of marriage, I may have gotten my wife something for valentines day maybe 3 times.<P>I got her something for valentines this year. And I gave it to her along with one of those mushy cards that I know she likes, but almost never gave her. She reacted to it, but didn't say much.<P>Earlier this week, we were having one of our 2 hour conversations, and she finally told me that she couldn't understand why in 9 years I didn't do something for her for valentines, and suddenly I am.<P>I am just trying to show her that I am a better person. Not to try and get her to come back, but hopefully she will see that I am a better person and want to come back.<P>Now, bear in mind, you can take this role and reverse it. SHE DOES THE SAME THING TO ME BUT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND IT.<P>Can you help me with an angle that will help her better understand it. I know she wants to be better, but she is confused.

OK, these are "Family of Origin" (FOO) issues. The way to deal with them is to explore them in therapy together so that they are understood. <P>The "why didn't you do that before?" question is best answered with the true reasons, not "I am being a better person". Whether you do that or not has nothing to do with your worth as a person. I'm not sure at all that <I>Gandhi</I> ever sent anyone a birthday card. <P>So what are your reasons: 1) Men are less emotionally sensitive; 2) We didn't do it in the family I grew up in; 3) I never developed the habit; so 4) It has only recently dawned on me that it's important to many <I>women</I>, and most specifically to <I>you</I>. It's not that I didn't care about you before and suddenly developed this caring attitude now that you are nearly lost to me. <P>I cared about you but didn't understand how you wanted it expressed to you and belatedly learned how a lot of that stuff works and now I'm "with the program". <P>She may or may not like that. But women like to have nice long discussions about things that emotionally trouble them. Discussions that go way beyond the kind of troubleshooting that men do in their relationships--where men zap the problem, then immediately drop it and go forward. Women want to talk it to death. And you best cooperate, or they feel as though they're being dismissed. And if it gets too hot, you just need to ask for a half hour break, and she needs to grant it, and you need to come back and finish.

Ok now we are getting somewhere.<P>The problem is reversed though. I am the one that wants to talk about it, but she doesn't. She is afraid, confused and has low self-esteem.<P>What I need help with is better handling the situation. What can I say that will ease her confusion and help her to express what she is feeling better?

Women who won't have discussions usually flood like men--because they have been abused in their youth. They need to monitor their heart rates for the 95 bpm threshhold, and take a half hour break if things get too heavy.

I was the same way. I was abused as a child, physically and sexually.<P>I suspect she was as well, but she has never admitted it.<P>I exposed all of my dirty dark secrets to her, in hopes that she would do the same, but nothing.<P>I am just looking for different angles to approach it. Maybe I can say something different that will get her talking more.<P>That is where I need help.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frustrated_in_GA:<BR><B>My problem. My wife is still in somewhat denial/frustration over her problems, and feels that the solution is divorce. She is not progressing very much in therapy, and occasionally complains that her counselor is not much help to her. We have the same counselor and I am delighted with him, but I also put forth a considerable amount of effort. She doesn't. She goes to counseling, but doesn't work on her problems outside of counseling.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're judging her--deciding that her feelings are a result of some problem she has. If she wants to leave you and you don't want her to, that's <I>your</I> problem, and <I>you</I> need to solve it either by convincing her to change her heart or accepting her abandonment. She may have problems, but they're not <I>yours</I> to solve.<P>She may need to change counselors so that she "clicks" with a new one. Are you pushing her to hang in with the old one? Getting <I>out</I> of counseling may even be better than one who's doing no good. If you're advocating something hard, move your suggestions to a neutral position and let her make her own decisions. <P>If she wants to divorce, do nothing to hasten or hinder. Just protect your most vital interests and try to make clear to her that the paperwork is not important to your feelings for her and willingness to be there for her <I>mean it</I>. <P>These are bitter pills. But judo does not suggest you meet an opponent with frontal opposition of their momentum and force. You dodge, bend, redirect, etc.

Full circle!<P>I realize I am judging her. I don't want to do that but I don't know how to approach convincing her to change her heart. I know I can't do that for her, I am looking for suggestions that will help me verbalize things in a non-judging manner.<P>The divorce is a great example. She is resentfull that I won't grant her a divorce, instead of exploring why I don't want the divorce.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frustrated_in_GA:<BR><B>She is resentfull that I won't grant her a divorce, instead of exploring why I don't want the divorce.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why does she need you to "grant" a divorce? She just files and moves the case forward ... or is it different in Georgia?<P>You could write her why <I>you</I> would resent a divorce, and ask her to reply with her position.<P>

She doesn't need me to grant her a divorce. It would be a contested divorce though, expensive, long, drawn out.<P>That is not where I am trying to go. I want to explore why I don't want a divorce.<P>I believe that the marriage can survive if you work hard enough and do the right things.<P>I am just looking for more of the right things to do.

Well, a great way to make someone discuss what's on their mind is to say that you don't want to oppose them, and want to do what's best for them, but aren't convinced that you would be doing the right thing for <I>them</I>. Tell her that if <I>you</I> were <I>selfish</I> that you would simply agree to everything and move on with your life. But you love her and believe that you are the best thing for her. You've been convinced of the fact in counseling. <P>She can, of course, refuse to enter the discussion. She knows, however, that she'll be no closer to what she wants. <P>So now she feels compelled to talk. And you have the tip of your crowbar under her lid.

That is exactly the type of thing I am looking for!<P>THANK YOU!<P>I have only recently learned how to "put the ball back in her court".<P>Keep it up, and thank you for bearing with me.<P>I found some notes I have about children of divorce. Don't know where I got them:<P>1. Fault. The child blames themselves for the divorce.<P>2. Forgiveness. The child finds it difficult to forgive people.<P>3. Abandonment. The child feels left out because one parent is gone and has been replaced with a non-parent.<P>4. Resentment. Also this new "parent" occupies the parents time which the child percieves as not spending time with the child.<P>My wife and I both have carried these and others through adulthood.

I don't have a lot to say except that I feel your wife could benefit from a change in counselors. There are times when one counselor can work with both people as individuals and as a couple. And there are times when it doesn't work. <P>X and I tried it. I worked hard. He didn't. And finally I was so tired and so ready to recover, that I said he could just have his divorce. In fact, I ended up filing for a divorce I hadn't wanted simply because nothing was happening to restore my marriage and I couldn't live in the insanity anymore.<P>Do you think she would agree to a change?

After today, I just don't think that she is in enough pain to commit to working on herself.<P>Our counselor is great, and our joint session today was very productive.<P>She admitted that she was not being completly open and honest with him. She is afraid of rejection if she tells him everything.<P>So we will see what happens going forward.