Friends (if I may call you that as I peer so intimately into your/our lives here on this awesome site - though I spend WAY too much time here!)...<P>I am wondering about something... I have read story after story after story after story about broken marriages as a result of EA & PA. Unbelievably, I'm also reading so many stories of people working through this pain and somehow getting marriages back on track (some yes, some no).<P>My question is: Why do you think if God said divorce is okay in the case of infidelity that so many of us are trying to piece back our marriages again? I know He didn't say it was mandatory to get a divorce but why did he give the "out" anyway?<P>My story (family of origin story, that is) is that I am the product of an affair - a child who was conceived by my mother and her lover. She was married 14 years and got pregnant me by an African American man... she's Norweigen/Danish. Her husband (BS) stayed with the marriage because they had four older children - and managed to have one more after my birth. The funny thing is that they covered up the affair, pretended they had a miscarriage and brought me into the family 3 months later as a foster child... who was eventually to be "adopted" (mid-60's so this interracial affair would have been a major problem in the mid-West). They have since remained married... this weekend they celebrate 50 years. But, their marriage is not healthy. they denied the affair and didn't tell me the truth about my mother being my real mother until I was 20 years old. <P>So, I can understand the pain of the infidelity as I saw the pain on my Dad's face when I finally asked him how he could accept me when just looking at me each day (skin color is one obvious - personality differences from the others is another) was a reminder of his wife's unfaithfulness? (we're not such an open and emotional family so it was a tough question). He and I cried and he said, "Well, it was an adjustment at first but I learned to love you like my other kids." And THAT he did... He is a model of servant leadership... I was not just another kid... I was (am) spoiled by him.<P>Anyway, back to my question... why when God God gave the "out" for marital infidelity are we all trying so hard...? I'm not sure it was "better" that my parents stayed together as I see such hurtful behaviors (massive LBing) in both of them that unfortunately I learned as a child and have significantly contributed to the marital discord that's been going on in my life for the past 8 months... (husband with 3 EAs and now wants to separate/divorce - only hiccup from his POV are our 3 boys whom we both cherish beyond belief).<P>Any thoughts...?<P>------------------<BR>Freedom is doing what you like - Happiness is liking what you do.

Consider the alternatives....<P>Your parents working through your mother's infidelity. Albeit not perfectly and maybe not to your satisfaction. You were raised with four other children in a stable environment--from all appearances. I was not a product of an affair, yet my parents love-busted plenty. I've been divorced twice. My ex husband's parents never cheated on each other, but have a very unhealthy marriage IMO. ALL of their three children have now been divorce. Faithful spouses don't have a lock on "healthy" marriages.<P>Consider the other alternative. You being raised maybe alone, maybe with the other kids, who knows? You certainly would not have seen your dad as often. The likelihood that your parents would have found more fulfilling and healthy relationships if they had divorced CERTAINLY is not guaranteed. Not only is it not guaranteed, it is LESS likely. Sounds like your parents made the best out of a bad situation, gave you a decent home life, now you want to blame them for your own not-so-good choices for partners. <P>People who are here struggling to keep their marriages know these facts. They also know that "punishing" their wayward spouse with divorce hurts EVERYONE in the end. And that they too (the betrayed) have most likely contributed to problems in the marriage in some way. People who are more fluent in the Bible will be able to give you more precise answers about what God hates. I believe it says God hates divorce. Period. He "allows" for divorce for adultery and the hard heart of the other spouse. Doesn't say, dump them. Doesn't say, give 'em the heave ho cause they cheated. It says (IMO) struggle...try to soften your hard heart...try to forgive....and if for some reason you cannot, then divorce. You might notice however, that abuse is not considered grounds for divorce. Only adultery. I have my own opinions why THAT is the case.

TheStudent's last paragraph is well stated. Kudos.<P>One of the most common fallacies in today's society and having been perpetuated for many years is that marriage brings automatic happiness and fulfillment. It does not and I challenge anyone to show me where it does. Not even in the Bible does it state that if you marry you will lead a life of bliss. I believe people who tolerate repeated unfaithfulness (be it EA or PA - to me they are both the same) in their spouses have serious issues of their own to work out. I have zero tolerance for adultery and one time is one too many. The effort to rebuild trust, respect, and admiration is not worth it. And it takes more than love. Even the thought of getting an STD is enough to send the WS out the door. No way is it worth that. Now some folks (BS) will want to rebuild on account of children, family, lifestyle, reputation, etc. Well, the WS should have thought of all that before he/she took that walk on the wildside. There should be zero guilt for the BS. Feelings and emotions have nothing to do with doing what is ultimately right.

to TheStudent: Thank you for your comments and sharp exhortation about being tempted to blame my parents for my situation. Well, it may have come across that way and yes, I must say I feel a little sorry for myself at times because of the "learning" that took place in my FOO - but, I'm now a grown up... I'm trying desparately NOT to blame but to observe and see the truth of what patterns I've learned and evaluate how they've contributed to the nasty situation I'm in. God is good in revealing these things to me slowly.<P>Now, I hear your point about divorce being permissable in adultery but nothing about it in the case of abuse... I'm confused about God's silence in this also? What's your take?<P>Okieman... I'm in the same boat as you about tolerance for infidelity (PA). But, I'm astounded at the plethora of stories here on this site of people who not only have accepted and forgiven it, moved past it EVEN still claim to love their spouse! This I cannot comprehend... eventhough my own father did this... I guess I think of him as super-human (kind of my humble super hero - maybe this is the problem... my husband just can't compare to the self-lessness of my father). Anyway, thank you both for your comments.<P>Yes, it definitely was better that they worked it out - well denied and ignored it really - and carried on with life. They're not unhappy together now - I read this to my Mom and she wasn't happy that I said their marriage was unhealthy now because she doesn't believe it is. Well, for them maybe it works... but from my take it's not as good as it could be, but it's their marriage and not mine.<P>Thanks again for your insights... but I'm still baffled at the number of people who stick it out when God gives them a legitimate 'out'. I will ponder your thoughts more...<P>------------------<BR>Freedom is doing what you like - Happiness is liking what you do.

Replying on this thread because it may generate an e-mail to you: John Gottman has marriage books out where flooding and what to do about it are described at length.<P>But the short form is the man measures his heart rate during any discussion with his wife. If it exceeds 95, he gets a half hour break. The wife avoids criticism (there may be a problem, but you don't tell him <I>he</I> is it) and contempt, he avoids defensiveness and stonewalling. Both are careful to avoid the universally contemptuous facial expressions of rolling the eyes or curling up the upper lip.

Before you rush to pat me on the back, know that I've learned life's lessons the hard way myself.<P>My first husband was a sex addict. Cheated on me multiple times (over 20). I didn't want to divorce him. NOT because adultery isn't "wrong" and because he hadn't betrayed my trust. But because he had problems. I loved him IN SPITE of his flaws. Now, that doesn't mean I had to roll around down there with him. He chose not to solve his problems. Chose not to get counseling either with me or by himself, so when he asked for a divorce I agreed.<P>Flash forward about 10-15 years. I'm married a second time. I have a one-night stand on my husband (whose faithfulness, I might add, is somewhat in question to this day). I confess, he can't forgive me--along the lines of Okieman's sentiments--and divorces me. There is one statement here that got my attention...<P>"The effort to rebuild trust, respect, and admiration is not worth it." <P>This is really sad. We have ALL sinned against someone. We have ALL betrayed someone in our lives, to greater or lesser degree. To say this means, Okieman, that you are not worthy of this effort either. The reason why we attempt to forgive others is NOT because they deserve it, but because we have all sinned, and ALL need forgiveness for something. Maybe you can't forgive. Maybe this is something you are not capable of. Then you should be forgiven for not being able to forgive IMO, not because you are "too good" to need forgiving.<P>Overseas Casualty,<BR>It is ok that you are exploring the effects of your parent's dynamics on your own choices. This is completely natural. Believe me, I spent many years holding up my fists and blaming my parents. In the end, they were only flawed human beings, like myself, doing the best they could do...and I forgave them too. When I look around, I don't see marriages between faithful spouses necessarily resulting in perfect kids either. I'll add, though, that faithfulness can only add to an environment of mutual trust and respect. It is a requirement for true intimacy. Still, once broken, trust can be recovered, albeit with great difficulty. This site is proof of that. I believe it is worth the effort. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 02, 2001).]

Thanks Sisyphus... I will check it out. I've already added "controlled separation" to my Amazon wishlist based on your recommendation to others! <P>------------------<BR>Freedom is doing what you like - Happiness is liking what you do.

Dear TheStudent... well, again, I thank you for your insights but feel an overwhelming sense of the pain and burden you must have been through in your life. I'm dumbfounded at the stories I keep hearing! Anyway, husband is in major withdrawal right now and on his way back here from a two week trip to the Middle East. He claims he's only living for his kids (our three boys). Oh well - I've been erased out.<P>In the meantime, I've been plan Aing it for such a long time but it just seems to make him angry - too little too late. Oh well. <P>I'm learning to be "single" not just to be single but to "PURSUE" singleness - even in relationship. God didn't say "it's not good for man/woman to be single, just alone" so I need to work on this and learn unconditional acceptance of another person's singleness - even in a relationship.<P>Forgiveness is a big issue - and lack thereof... my husband takes such a long time to forgive (needs proof of repentence - 180 degree turnaround from offending behavior). But, I like your point about forgiving him for not forgiving me. I'll ponder that in the shower (slow start this morning)...<P>Anyway, I'm still looking for your thoughts on God's exclusion to abuse as a reason for divorcing...<BR> <P>------------------<BR>Freedom is doing what you like - Happiness is liking what you do.

Overseas Casualty,<P>I don't think it is God's exclusion. The vows do say "love and cherish". Abuse (in all it's forms) is the antithesis of to "love and cherish". The Bible excludes it, IMO, because it was written by men for men for the most part. Physical punishment was considered acceptable for wives at that time. Those are my mostly unpopular views. <P>At that time, men could have multiple wives. Seems to me, the term "adultery" mostly applied to women. There were no DNA tests back then. If the race of the bio father was close to the husband, ostensibly another man's child would be heir to the fortune of the husband. If your bio dad were not of a different skin color, your mother could have pretty easily concealed your origins. This was not about trust. This was about property, money, etc. There are a zillion ways to betray someone's trust that have nothing to do with sex. If betrayal of trust was the only reason for divorce, then everyone would be divorced!!<P>Anyway, those are my blasphemous and sacriligeous opinions. I don't claim to be a religious person, but I do claim to try and be a good, honest one, and even graceful one at times.

Your new topic and all its replies really hit home this morning. On my way into work this morning I was asking myself (& God)some of the very same ?'s/issues that you all have brought up.<BR>I come to the conclusion that there are no answers. I have talked to so many different people, and I think what I was basically trying to get from all of the discussions, was what I wanted to hear.<BR>My STBX husband is trying so desparately to get his spiritual life on track. This, as I look back is something he is constantly doing; crisis, fall away from God, ask for forgiveness, forgiven, live life happily (just until the next crisis comes along). <BR>This is where I get a little upset, not that I haven't made many, many mistakes, but I have learned a little something along the way. I try to fly right and stay away from "bad judgement-resulting in bad action".<P>Forgiveness is something we are all entitled to from God. In my case it just seems that "some" abuse it. I think that I might have gotten off the track here, but after reading this thread, this is what I was moved to write.<P>I'm trying to realize that I just might be better off without my husband, and I wish I could get rid of the lingering voice in my head that tells me that reconciliation is a possiblility. I don't even understand why I want it, especially after what my husband has done. I know that I have tried everything to save it, but hey, you can't hold on to someone who wants to be free (from me anyway). <BR>Thanks for listening, I love this forum.<BR>Petrie<BR><p>[This message has been edited by REJECTED (edited March 02, 2001).]

Okieman,<P>"He among you who have no sin, let him cast the first stone"<P>Mat 7:3-5 (Jer) "Why do you observe the splinter in you brother's eye and never notice the plank in your own? How dare you say to your brother, 'Let me take the<BR>splinter out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own? Hypocrite! Take the plank out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take<BR>the splinter out of your brother's eye."<P>Just a couple quotes from someone I deeply respect and follow....<P>But back to the original question posted by Overseas Casualty: I believe that God gives each of us only what He knows we can handle. If you look at re-establishing a marriage which was a victim of infidelity, in that way, you can understand that the men and women who are able to "make" the marriage work, are the men and women who have the level of forgiveness needed to succeed. That is not to say that someone who does not want to make their marriage work after infidelity is any less of a person - they may just not have the same level of forgiveness in their hearts...<P>I believe that forgiveness is really one of the only selfless acts we can do. From a human perspective, you really have no obligation to forgive anyone. There is no law saying that you must forgive. Forgiveness is something that comes from within. If you love someone enough to pledge your entire life to, even though they let you down, why can't you forgive? We all make mistakes, we all let people down. When we do, we would like for people to forgive us, right?<P>While forgiveness should never be conditional, it still goes to say that it is hard to forgive someone when they are still performing the act. Even God doesn't forgive someone just because they say the words "please forgive me" - He wants to see the change in their hearts. So for me, if a spouse is unfaithful, but they are truly repentant AND their behavoir demonstrates just that, then while I know just how tough it would be for me to do, I do believe I would forgive.<P>But this is only my opinion.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>BTW: a favorite prayer of mine, kind of on this topic...<P>Act of Contrition<BR>-------------------<BR>O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my<BR>sins because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend<BR>Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly<BR>resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near<BR>occasions of sin. Amen<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

duplicate post<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 02, 2001).]

Okieman,<P>duplicate post.... stupid internet...<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 02, 2001).]

duplicate post<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 02, 2001).]

This is a little ridiculous....duplicate post<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 02, 2001).]

I didn't think that I could have forgived my husband, I didn't think I would have it in me. I told him that it would take work to rebuild our marriage, but it could actually become stronger than ever. I told him that my love for him ran so deep and we could get passed this. <BR>Now all I am left with is knowing that I gave it my all, because the husband has chosen the OW (& wherever that takes him). He must surely detest me, for he chose the unknown over me. I wonder if he thinks that if it doesn't work out with her, he could then come back to the doormat, me. <P>I have to lean on my faith to forgive unconditionally. I have made it perfectly clear to him just how deep my love is for him and that I do forgive him, and that means whether or not he decides to work things out with me.<P>Now that is a hard hard thing to take!!!!! But I believe it to be what I should do and forgiving will help me (and him) in the long run. I don't want to be a bitter/angry person. I've got alot of living to do!!<P>

Interesting thoughts on abuse and adultery (TheStudent). However, my thought is that scripture wasn't just applicable for the men of that day - meaning making it easy for them to get out of a marriage. I think Jesus demonstrated in the below passage how much he cared about the personhood of women:<P>Mark 10:1-12 - (my paraphrase) the Pharisees wanted to test Jesus on the letter of the law in asking about the lawfulness of a man divorcing his wife... Jesus said, what did Moses say? So they went on with the explanation of yeah as long as he provided a certificate of divorce... but Jesus didn't leave it there.<P>He explained it's because YOUR (not just the heart of the the men in Moses' day) hearts were hard that Moses wrote this... but God made the two to become ONE flesh. Therefore what GOD has joined together let no man/woman separate. Jesus didn't bite their bait of divorce but went to the original intention... it's not good for man to be alone. <P>The point? It's true the infidelity and multiple partners/wives was the standard order of the day... but Moses (and Jesus) saw how dreadfully the wives were being treated - first wife divorced, second wife attained - WS gets bored with second wife and wants first wife back and so the story goes... women got treated like property. He knew this was wrong - so that's why they made a certificate of divorce... to protect the woman from the hard-heartedness of men who were led in this way...<P>So, is it perhaps not the infidelity that Jesus is talking about when he says let no man divorce except for marital infidelity? But the state of one's heart - hard-heartedness that MAY accompany infidelity that he is referring to? I posit this because God also indicates that in the case of hard-heartedness or unbelief, we are to let the person go. He has called us to live in peace. (1Cor 7:15) But, living in peace begins with us - i.e. Plan A'ing and avoiding LBs at all times. <P>"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends..." {Rom 12:17-18}<P>So, perhaps the success stories I'm reading here are referring to teachable and tender hearts - not the act of infidelity. Perhaps God is not saying infidelity is the sin of sins or wrong of wrongs... but hard-heartedness is? So, SoTired, you indicate the He gives us no more than we can handle... you all are incredible in your willingness to be tender and cope (with your WS). I stand in awe...<P>'nuff said. <P>------------------<BR>Freedom is doing what you like - Happiness is liking what you do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Overseas Casualty:<BR><B>So, SoTired, you indicate the He gives us no more than we can handle... you all are incredible in your willingness to be tender and cope (with your WS). I stand in awe...<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know what makes me a little nervous is sometimes it is easy to say what you believe, but actions are 10 times harder. I can only pray that if (when) my wife changes her heart and looks to a second chance with us, that I have the strength and the power to keep to the words I write here. Don't misunderstand me, I totally believe in everything I write here - it is just if and when it comes time to put those words to action, I pray that God blesses me with the strength and conviction to follow through.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Let me take some time to explain something that is probably misunderstood. Nowhere did I state that you do not forgive. We are commanded to forgive. Like God says, if you cannot forgive others, He cannot forgive you. Many believe that forgiving is intricately tied to "feelings" but it is not. Forgiving, like love, is a decision, not an emotion. The fact that you can forgive someone, does not require you to tolerate more of their misbehavior or treachery. Read what Proverbs says about the adulterer/prostitute. I forgive, but I am not stupid enough to tolerate. God gives me a way out. <P>SoTired2000 - "So for me, if a spouse is unfaithful, but they are truly repentant AND their behavoir demonstrates just that, then while I know just how tough it would be for me to do, I do believe I would forgive." <BR>Now my question is - how many years will it take to arrive at that conclusion? Can't say, can you? Ask people who have contracted an STD how they feel.<P>I guess I can say confidently that I feel good enough about myself that I don't have to settle for second best. Most people stay in destroyed relationships (and that is what one incidence of adultery does) because of: 1. Lack of self-esteem, 2. Convenience 3. Denial (of consequences) etc.<P>I don't think it is unreasonable at all to expect fidelity in a marriage. That is not asking for too much. And if you do something selfish, pay the consequences. Life is simple.<BR>

OC,<P>May I take my hat off and bow in respect to both your mother and father? <P>I have lived through a lot more of your experience than you need to be bored with right now. My ex recently disclosed to our youngest son that she isn't sure who his bio father is.<P>Dr. Harley wrote several outstanding columns on the subject of infidelity and what happens after. If you would like an insight into the choices your folks faced,<P>http/www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5063a_qa.html<P>Please give your Mom and Dad a hug for me. I stand in awe of their achievement.<P>Bumper