I agree with Bumperii about your parents! They are to be commended! It takes courage and strength to do what they did. <P>I've read a lot about K that posts here, and he is doing the same, and he loves that child as his own. How remarkable.<P>I was adopted by my dad when I was a baby and I have never thought of him as anything but DAD, and he has never treated me as anything other than his daughter, even though another man created me. I guess I have personal reasons for feeling so strongly about this subject.<P>But to get to your original question. I think that God "allows" for divorce when adultery is the cause, but He does not want it. <P>The reason that more betrayed spouses don't just divorce if it is allowed: they LOVE their wayward spouse. That simple, I think.<P>------------------<BR>I just want to sit in the garden in peace~~<P>*Statue*

Okieman,<P>Listen, I am not judging you or saying anything personal, for I don't know your circumstances. It sounds like you are a "black and white" person - something either is or it isn't. And that is perfectly fine, there is nothing wrong with that.<P>But be careful when you group people together and label them, just because their views differ from yours. A mistake (granted a HUGE mistake) in a marriage does not necessarily wreck a marriage. God calls for us to always try for unconditional love of each other, especially our spouses. While He knows that it is very difficult for us to achieve it, He still expects us to keep striving for it. Unconditional love means loving someone in-spite of what they do or say to you.<P>I agree with you that fidelity in a marriage is definitely not something too big to expect. It should be a "given". Unfortunately ALL of us are human and we all make mistakes of various degrees.<P>I will tell you one thing though, there are a few people here on this site that have been cheated on and who would be willing to, or who are giving their spouses another chance. True for some it is for the children, but for some other people, children are not even in the picture. Why then do they do it? I think once you spend some time here you will see that it is out of the love they have for their spouses - even though they have been hurt, they still have the capacity to love AND to forgive.<P>To me that makes them some of the strongest people I know. It is soooo easy to live by your vows in "good times", but it takes strength and courage (sometimes an unbelievable amount of each) to stand by vows you made in-spite of other peoples actions.<P>I always revert back to my new favorite saying "WWJD" (what would Jesus do).<P>Your decisions are just that - I would NEVER think of judging you. All I ask is just to be careful of labeling someone as a lesser person because their convictions to their marriages are different from yours.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Thank you for making the point of the strength involved in forgiving and wanting to work things out. My very opinionated (self-righteous) Brotherinlaw, told me that it is a harder thing to do in leaving/divorcing my husband, and that staying in the marriage would be the "easy way". My self-esteem had already been shattered so after he said that it made me look at it "his way".<P>I am proud of myself in that I found the strength to not let what he (voluntarily) told me, sway me, and went with my true, heartfelt feelings.<P>Even though it looks like my marriage has failed, I know that I gave it my all and my husband knows my heart.

WOW! What an incredible thread! I have to tell you that since I am one of the few who actually has the chance to try again, Mike (SoTired2000) is SO RIGHT!! It is ten times harder to DO what you have learned than it is to learn it. Over and over again, the things that I thought I had learned have been put to the test, and I've discovered that I had only intellectually learned them--I had not graduated to DOING what I had learned. <P>So, the original question is something I think I am qualified to address. I know that in Moses' day, there was the allowance for divorce in the case of infidelity, and I think you need to bear in mind the times in which that was written. The peoples surrounding the "Hebrews" of that time were not necessarily very high on monogamy or even on treating their women as anything but slaves. Thus, to say that a man should choose one woman, treat her right, and stay with her for his entire life was quite novel. <P>I think the exception was thrown in as an acknowledgement of our human weakness. Anyone who is on this forum knows that sometimes they are hurt beyond repair by their own spouse. Yes, it's true that they have hardened their own heart a little, and that by letting God love through them when they can not do it, that possibly they would have the strength to re-join with their wounding spouse. But the fact of the matter is that humans have weaknesses, and not everyone is strong enough to do that. Some folks just are too hurt and can not recover. Thus, I think God gave us the one except as recognition of the fact that, although His intent is for us to stay together through good times and bad, we can not always live us to His standard. I also think that the one exception reinforces the fact that we need to stand firm in our commitment to each other, and that if that commitment is ever to be broken, it should be over something serious, not just something flighty.<P>Now, don't misunderstand. I definately and strongly do not believe that God ever intends for men or women to stay in environments in which they could be physically harmed. I dont' believe God really wants any of us to be in environments that hurt us in other ways either. In other words, I really do not believe that God expects us to be doormats, to be beaten up or to be emotionally abused just for the sake of "staying together." But look at the intention of the law, not just the words. I really strongly think that not only is He acknowledging that some folks are hurt beyond repair, and thus need an exception, but also, I think He is challenging us to acknowledge that just because our spouse did something wrong, we are all capable of doing "wrong." Thus, although I would perhaps technically be well within my rights to divorce my H because he was unfaithful, I have to also acknowledge that he made a mistake. We are all capable of making a mistake and doing the wrong thing. <P>Now, we are getting into the meat of the matter. Should we tolerate infidelity? Should we automatically use the exception and divorce our spouse if there is infidelity? The real answer, I believe, lies in their asking for forgiveness. If they do not see that what they did was wrong, are not sorry, and do not ask for and work for forgiveness, then I say that divorcing is probably the way to go. In fact, most likely your spouse will take you down that road whether you want to go or not. HOWEVER, if they see that what they did was wrong, feel sorry in their heart, and ask for and work for forgiveness, then I think that this is the situation when the exception becomes cloudy. As I've said over and over, some spouses are too hurt to repair because they are humans. And some spouses have the courage to acknowledge that humans make mistakes and somehow to work on it and forgive. A big part of the key, though, is whether the wounding spouse (WS) is willing to repent and repair to the betrayed spouse (BS). <P>Well, I sure have made this sound grandiose, haven't I? I will speak to you from my own experience--and all my friends here will back me up on my story. When my H first left, I was a CJ puddle--I was a mess. Then I started to see how I had contributed and started to work on becoming the woman and wife God intended for me to be. Throughout all this, my H carried on with OW--sometimes behind my back (like when he moved back home for the summer last year) and sometimes right out in the ope (like when he took her on a vacation). But I knew that my job was to work on me and DO what I knew to be right, no matter how hard it was. Now, he has moved back home again and we are working on reconciling, and as Mike said it is ten times harder to DO what I've learned. Now, I believe that technically I would be well within my rights morally to divorce this man due to his infidelity. But he has come to me with a whole new attitude; he has acknowledged that being with the OW was wrong; he has taken some time to learn and grow himself, and he is acting in entirely new ways toward me; and he is trying to do some repair for what happened. At least I think he is--but that's another thread (haha). Anyway, since I made a vow before God to stay with this man until I die, and since he has shown remorse by his actions and has begun to make repairs (hey, it's a start!), well then I think it is my moral obligation to realize that he made a horrible mistake and to do what I can to show him God's love through me, that mistakes can be forgiven. <P>I have to admit, this weekend is going to be a toughy for me, and I also have to admit that getting to thorough forgiveness is not coming overnight, but I think we are on the path that leads there. <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Another standing ovation...<P>Thanks for sharing your process... I hear what you say about the Old Testament times but again am wondering about making infidelity the only "out" in God's eyes for a divorce... I'm starting to really think it's hard-heartedness (grieving the Holy Spirit) and maybe it's manifested in its worst in the case of infidelity - other wise I don't understand the scriptural absence of dealing with abuse.<P>Anyway, I am with you on your process with God - making you to be the wife he intended for you. That's been my prayer for over one year (started as my year 2000 prayer "resolution"). <P>Thanks again for your biblical treatise... AND more importantly how you've humbly applied your learning in your life as well as balancing your expectations (not trying to be perfect). I have so much more to ponder and learn...<P>------------------<BR>Freedom is doing what you like - Happiness is liking what you do.

and...not only that....<P>If a spouse WAS truly repentant and remorseful, having an unforgiving spouse remain married to them does more damage to the betrayer than it does the betrayed. <P>While I'm sad my ex could not forgive me, I'm pretty darn happy I don't have to live with his punishment the rest of my life. And you know, I was willing to deal with that in order to stay married to him and to have the chance at having a strong marriage. I was willing to live with the memory of hurting him for the rest of my life. <P>So, just like he has chosen to cast me out of his life, I can choose to caste out his memory as well. It works both ways. <P>Okieman, <BR>All I can say is, I hope you have ESP in the future. With your outlook, it is very unlikely that you will recieve honesty. <P>You expect grace and understanding, but can't give it. You expect forgiveness for the hurts you cause others, but can't give it. Perhaps infidelity is unforgiveable for you, but there are hurts you may have caused others that they find equally hard to forgive. Those who live by the sword, can die by the sword. You reserve the right to cast out your spouse for hurting you, then don't feel bad when they cast you out, lie to you, or do anything they deem necessary to protect themselves from you.<P>"And if you do something selfish, pay the consequences."<P>Ever consider that the consequence for your selfishness is being cheated on? Lied to? You have consequences to suffer too, my friend. But you appear immune to the suffering of your spouse. How sad for you. Your fidelity does not appear to be a gift or done with an open heart. It appears to be more of weapon, something to prove your superiority. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 03, 2001).]

In the Old Testament, the penalty for adultery was death. Violators were stoned. In the book of Matthew, when they were questioning Jesus about Moses, they said that Moses "commanded". Moses did not "command", Jesus corrected them on this, but Moses "permitted". Jesus allowed divorce only for infidelity and he was easing the penalty when he made this exception. The only way out of a marriage was death. Adultery so "killed" a marriage that Jesus was now showing mercy to the perpetrator (WS) but especially the victim (BS) <P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR>[B]and...not only that....<P>To TheStudent:<BR> It is unfortunate that you have had to suffer the consequences of a treacherous act. I guess I have been raised and lived all my life according to rules. I do know that in many things, once you cross a line, there is no going back. I also believe in death before dishonor. A lot of people have no concept of what that is. I am also considerate enough that I would never have betrayed anyone close to me at the mystical whim of my genitals. I have a clear conscience and I can live with myself.

Okieman,<P>You said:<BR>"It is unfortunate that you have had to suffer the consequences of a treacherous act"<P>And...It is unfortunate that you have had to suffer the consequences of your pride and self-righteousness. <P>So happy are you to hand out punishment and call it "consequences". Outwardly, you can appear completely virtuous and immaculate, but I'm not impressed. Your fidelity seems fake, done only for appearances. Without compassion, pity, or grace you will suffer just as much as the most unrepentant betrayer. And obviously, you have, otherwise you wouldn't be on this site. <P>you also said:<BR>"I also believe in death before dishonor. A lot of people have no concept of what that is."<P>Actually, many people have a concept of what that is. Terrorists, some religious fundamentalists, Nazis, I could go on... Depends on what your definition of honor is. Someone could be sexually faithful all their lives, but if they treated their spouse with disrespect, were abusive, degrading, etc, then they would have no honor in my eyes simply because they can make it "look good" to outsiders. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 05, 2001).]

Okieman... you indicate that adultery kills a marriage - as if unto death and I'm not so sure about that interpretation. I actually believe that hard-heartedness is what kills a relationship - with God and with our spouses and with our "neighbors: friends and enemies". So, I think that adultery is not the sin of sins... but pride and hard-heartedness leads to separation from that which God intended us to be (like Him) in relationship with each other and with him. Adultery in marriage - sexual infidelity is only ONE way that this may happen. So, in the sense of right and wrong, I'd be careful about saying "extra marital sex" is the big taboo. <P>But maybe this isn't what you're saying at all.<P>TheStudent... your writing is sound but underneath is is still pain and justification in your retaliatory remarks to Okieman... let's all agree to disagree, eh? I hope I do not offend you by saying this.<P>By the way, I'm still Overseas Casualty - just shortened up my name a bit.<P>------------------<BR>Doing what you like is freedom... Liking what you do is happiness

Note to Okieman:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> To TheStudent:<BR> It is unfortunate that you have had to suffer the consequences of a treacherous act. I<BR> guess I have been raised and lived all my life according to rules. I do know that in many<BR> things, once you cross a line, there is no going back. I also believe in death before<BR> dishonor. A lot of people have no concept of what that is. I am also considerate enough<BR> that I would never have betrayed anyone close to me at the mystical whim of my<BR> genitals. I have a clear conscience and I can live with myself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree that once you cross a line there is no going back, but - there <B>is</B> going forward from that point. It isn't up to you or me to judge The Student or anyone else here, but I have found her, and most betraying spouses who post here, very repentent. Betrayers come here for all kinds of reasons, but most of all they come to REBUILD their marriages. Otherwise, why would they be here? Please show some compassion.

Ovrcs,<P>No offense taken. <P>There are plenty of consequences and justification to go around, on both sides. The "prize" goes to the one who learned the most from their failure, and who does the most work to overcome their shortcomings...and that isn't necessarily the BS. <P>Statue,<BR>thanks for sticking up for me, but I'm used to this. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 05, 2001).]