Well, I do not know what to think. <P>All weekend, Friday and Saturday and Sunday, he kept calling about every other hour with quick little calls to say he was "in Vail" or "in Grand Junction" or "at the restaurant" or "at the hotel" or "going to the hot tub", so I feel like I was kept abreast of his schedule. Each call was about 5 minutes long, if that, so, on the one hand, I feel like he was trying to be accountable. I was also able to get through to him on his cell phone almost every single time I tried to call him. <P>On the other hand, since conversation is a big EN of mine, he had said that he would call every night, late at night, so we could have a nice, long, adult conversation; but on Friday he was too tired from driving and on Saturday he said that he felt like he caught a cold and just wanted to go to sleep. On Friday night, I had a nightmare that he went on a walk with the OW because he "just wanted to see how she was" and I told him about it on Saturday morning. During the day on Saturday, he had a couple of times when it was 3 or 4 hours between calls, and at night he said he just wanted to go to bed at 9pm, and I didn't hear from him all night. When he got home on Sunday, he pretty much put on his robe, laid down on the couch and went to sleep. Based on the way he acted, I do think he may have a cold, and he did sound congested a little as he slept.<P>Sooooo... I seesawed back and forth all night last night. On the one hand, he did call and call--but on the other hand, they were short 5 minute calls every 3 hours! On the one hand, he said we'd have long conversations each night--but on the other hand he was always too tired to follow through! On the one hand, he said he caught a cold--but on the other hand he was well enough to go to the hot tub. So, about half the time, I feel like the guy is really trying and the other half of the time, I feel like he's being sneaky again.<P>Now, to add salt to the wound, after the trip he left his cell phone in the rental car (we hunted around the house, so I think that's the truth at least), and after being turned on all night, the cell batteries ran out. HOWEVER, this morning he called me from FORT COLLINS (a totally unexpected one hour trip out of town) and told me that he did not know how long he would be there--and with his cell batteries dead, I have absolutely no way of getting ahold of him and no way to check and see if he is actually where he says he is. Sooooo...for hours and hours today and tonight I have no way to reach him, no way to check up on him, no way to get ahold of him, and no warning. Hells bells, he could spend all those hours doing Godknowswhat, and I have no way of knowing.<P>The funny thing is, although I feel pretty confused on the inside, I feel oddly calm too. I know what I'm supposed to do, and I'm doing it. I knew I was supposed to hang with the kids this weekend, and I did: we went friends over Friday night and went to a play on Saturday night. I knew I was supposed to think about recovery, restoring trust, and forgiveness this weekend and I did: I re-read certain chapters of "After the Affair" and renewed what I had learned. I even know now that if he IS with another woman even as I sit here at work, I am on the right track. There's not a darn thing I can do to "make" him do the right thing--it's his choice to make--but there are things I can do to help encourage him pick the right choice. <P>The thing that is killing me right now is that I feel so suspicious and I don't know how to take ANYTHING. I drives me crazy not to be able to trust my intuitions, but I have no ability right now to tell if I'm just being silly or he's being sneaky. I'd have to say that my gut feeling is that it doesn't look good, but looks can be deceiving. When I thought he was totally gone and choosing the OW, it took a little while, but eventually I was standing on my own solid ground. Then, when he came back home and seemed to be working with me, I believed him and it felt like I was standing on our solid ground. Now, it feels like I'm standing on jello. I don't know if he is REALLY picking me, or just fooling me. I don't know if he's telling the truth or lying. It's the uncertainty that is driving my buggy!<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

A cheap solution? <A HREF="http://www.mil-spec-industries.com/truster/index2.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.mil-spec-industries.com/truster/index2.htm</A> <P>I've heard of something with the same name recently being sold as a small, hand-held box ... like a giga-pet or PDA.

Yeah. Like that's going to build trust.<P>Talk about a major love buster, Sissy!<P>CJ - you're doing ok! All you can do is walk the walk and he'll either sink or swim on his own. Just work on yourself, read, and talk. And don't get caught being blind.

CJ,<BR>Don't know if this helps any, but 5 mins is a long conversation on the phone for most guys! I would also imagine, that being a guy, it would be very hard to have to be checking in all the time. <P>Not, that this is the wrong thing to have him do, I just imagine it must be hard.<P>Hang in!<P>Bob

CJ,<BR>All of your feelings are totally valid. Re-gaining/earning trust is a hard thing (for both the deceiver and the deceived). For his part though, I do wish that he'd be alot more reliable with the lines of communication (ie. his cell phone). Believe that you are on the right track and you are doing all the right things. <BR>Try not to get to "out of your mind" thinking the worst. Easier said than done, I know. <BR>This is one tough test you are being put through! I'm thinking about you!!!!<P>{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bleubelle:<BR><B>Yeah. Like that's going to build trust.<P>Talk about a major love buster, Sissy!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was just a thought. FW might do it in secret, or H might agree to it. <I>Imposing</I> it openly over his objection would be the only lovebuster.<P>Drunks expect to have to submit to breathalyzers, don't they?

Sisyphus, you slay me! ROFLMAO! <P>I have a great idea! How about a transdermal lie-detector, that shocks the liar when he tells anything less than the absolute truth! Heehee. <P>Last weekend, someone suggested whole body tweezing without anesthesia. Are you people warped or what? <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Are you people warped or what? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh, heh hehe...you said warped...heh...<P>There was a guy whose nick was Wexwill who posted for a while who really had some warped revenge fantasies. If I can find the thread, I'll come back and edit in a link for your entertainment. <P>

It occurs to me scientists might invent an infidelity breathalyzer. But it would probably work better on women than on (straight) men.

CJ - you're on the right track. You are feeling the calm from inside of YOU inspite of your circumstances. You can't rely on them. "Wise as a serpant and Gentle as a dove"... so, think through what that means for you... anyway, what could you do besides get angry if he was cheating? I'm not suggesting be blissfully ignorant but the suspicion trap is just that a TRAP - take captive every thought and think on THESE things: whatever is true (real), whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admiorable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy - think about such things... {I just point out that I find this much easier to say than to do - God help us all!}<P>Be of good cheer friend, you're on the right path - it has to come from WITHIN you and not what your H is or is not doing. Hope the week goes better than your emotional ups and downs on the weekend!<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR>Doing what you like is freedom... Liking what you do is happiness

Hi Faithful,<P>thinking of you.<P>I'm sure it will all pan out. In your favour. Just the fact that he did call constantly. For a man, that number of times is constant!!!<P>And a spa helps a cold. Maybe that's why he had that.<P>Have faith my friend. You love this man. He is sorry for what has happened. Keep focussing on how much you love him. Everything else is out of your hands.<P>big hugs to you<P>Jo

OK CJ,<P>Fact is, you got through this, maybe not everything according to the script, but it was a good start. My guess is that it will take you two a little while to get the hang of what you are trying to do with the frequent communication. But with practice, you'll both get the hang of it.<P>RWD pointed out that five minutes on the phone is a long time for most guys. That is true. The average woman speaks about 2000 words each day, the average man only about 800 words each day. That is a common area for couples to get into trouble, because the woman has more of a need to chat than a man does. Dr. Laura once noted that some women have a tendency to try to turn their husbands into one of their girlfriends in the chit-chat department. That is an area where guys just don't excel.<P>When our family gets together for a dinner at a restaurant, including daughter and ex wife and cousins and inlaws, the difference is obvious. The women talk non stop for two or three hours. Everyone goes home, then daughter gets on the phone with the ex wife to make sure everyone got home OK, and they have another twenty minute conversation. There is nothing unusual about that. Doesn't hurt a thing.<P>May I suggest that while this is going on, that you take a little time each day to visit on the phone with women friends and relatives so you have some conversation in addition to your husband? And be sure to let him know how much you enjoy that few minutes of conversation in the evening.<P>Sounds like you are handling this pretty well. We are all pulling for you.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Bumper

CJ,<P>during recovery, the WS also gets a chance to look at the OW from a detached point of view. This fog free view often cements the focus back to the original relationship, because the WS can view all relationships more clearly. Sometimes, if the OW wants to protect her hurt, she stays away, which gives the WS the opportunity to further strengthen against future repeat episodes.<P>These scenarios are all very good for the BS, you just have to give it time to cement, to gel so to speak, before your relationship is completely rebuilt. Some BS know that the exposure to the other woman is ocassionally necessary, and allow it in minor doses so as to build trust on both ends, for WS to harden against the temptation, and the BS to learn trusting again.<P>So its only been a month, you must figure at least six months to a year to have the relationship completely rebuilt.<P>Also, as we discussed earlier, your WS's episode may be caused by the FOO issues which he doesn't completely understand, ie, he is repeating in a different scenario what happened to him in his teenage years. When this happens, the relationship is much more likely to be rebuilt if the FOO reasons can be understood. Why? a significant part of the episode is not related to you.<P>But this still does not let you off the hook to not improve yourself to be the best you can be! continue posting and questioning here and talking there, and you will have the best chance for recovery!<P>good luck!<P>tom

Thank you all for your responses. It just seems like such a struggle!! UGH!!!<P>OvrCs: I like your abbreviation--it's cute. Anyway, thank you for reminding me that I need to capture my thoughts and "think on these things." You are so right. As I said, even if he has chosen to stray, that's a choice he has to make, not me. The thing that causes me to pause, though, is how I come across when I am constantly concerned about where he is and who he is with. I know in my head that I can't stop him, but I can honestly say that I wish trust had been gradually BUILT versus jumping in up to my neck like I did this week and weekend. However, as you so wisely reminded me, I can obsess with thoughts about what HE is doing, or I can "think on these things" and keep my own thoughts and minds on track. Thanks.<P>Jo: Thanks for your good thoughts. I feel so fortunate to have some many people thinking of me and praying for me.<P>Bumper: Thanks also for the quote from Dr. Laura (LOL) and for the idea about calling one of my girlfriends. My H and I have quite a huge mtn. to climb, because he doesn't talk hardly at all, and I LOVE to talk. He is an ESTJ and I am an INFP. Almost everything we do bugs the other person, just because our personalities are so different! Anyway, I'm beginning to wonder what kind of magnet I may be <P>Tom: Wow. Let's just say I had to ponder your post for a minute, but I think I get it. In summary, you are saying that sometimes, in certain situations, limited contact with the OW might be okay and might even be helpful. I agree with what you're saying, but I would like to have been involved in making that decision, not just have it dropped in my lap. For example, I think it would be more reasonable to discuss it and reach a Joint Agreement, than to just disappear on Wednesday night, not call at night on the weekend, and disappear yesterday and today. One quick thought does come to mind, though: reaching a joint agreement would be the goal that we reach for--and it would appear that we did not attain the goal this time.<P>Next, you are also saying that some of the problems we are having may be related to his FOO issue (I remember that discussion)--thus, some of what is going on this past year and now may need to be understood and resolved for a much better chance at recovery. Good point. I have to confess, sometimes I get so wound up in what is going on that I loose perspective, and that why I rely on you and the rest of the MB family here to remind of these things. If that FOO issue has not been understood, I bet there will be parts of him that will keep trying to repeat it!<P>Thank you all so much for your help and your good thoughts. This is SO HARD!!!!!<P><BR>CJ<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ, limited, unavoidable, business contact<BR>NOT regular, chosen, social contact!<P>and i agree, it requires work to understand and see the FOO issue, but not your work, his work, and educating the WS is a LB!<P>and remember, Plan A is not forever!

Tom,<P>I understand what you mean about the limited, unavoidable, business contact. I would have preferred the first business trip to be to the east coast (totally opposite side of the US); yet that wasn't what happened. Next, I would have prefered to be present during the first, unavoidable contact; however, that didn't happen. Then, I would have prefered to be forewarned of the first, unavoidable contact; but that wasn't the way it happened either. I guess, from my point of view, we dove immediately from no contact/focusing on each other to an extended business trip right into the lion's den. As someone put it, trial by fire!<P>I also hear loud and clear what you are saying about the FOO issue being his work. To be honest, I've been concentrating so hard on my own self and relationship issues, I don't have time to think of his issues, but it is certainly helpful to have a possible "explanation"--it makes what is happening seem more reasonable. Yes, you are making my little Thinker a little happier! <P>I know the best thing I can do is to DO the new things I've learned about myself and DO the new things I've learned about relationships (from my end), but I have a question for you. Why isn't Plan A forever? My definition of Plan A is to learn what the ENs of each person are and work to meet those needs as much as you can, learn what the LBs of each person are and work to avoid them, and work on yourself to become the kind of person and spouse that you have the potential to be. Why wouldn't that be a lifelong endeavor? Wouldn't ENs and LBs occasionally change throughout the lifecycle of a relationship? Wouldn't both people also be learning, growing, maturing and adjusting? Gosh, I may have misunderstood something, because I honestly thought Plan A was forever!<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited March 06, 2001).]

<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007757.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007757.html</A>

Okay, good discussion and all, but I for me, I never looked at Plan A as a way to "reward bad behavior"--then again, my view is a little skewed, isn't it <P>Anyway, I always looked at Plan A as 98% working on me: becoming the kind of person I am capable of becoming, investigating behaviors and working to change myself. For example, as you know, one of my own personal "bad spirits" is hanging onto stuff, holding it over, and having difficulty forgiving and letting it go. Thus, Plan A (IMHO) would not be letting him get away with stuff and blindly forgiving him. Plan A would be admitting to myself that I have a problem in this area and working to do better at being forgiving. The hope is that when the doodoo hits the fan, I might fall back into holding onto it from habit, then remember that this is my area, then forgive--and the basic change of behavior would be "shocking" enough for him to see it and go, "Wow, that's a change!"<P>In my mind, this is not the actions of a doormat, but rather almost the exact opposite--I am becoming the best I can be, and if he sees that as attractive, well then yahoo for me. If he does not see that as attractive, I still have the self-esteem to say I am the best me that I can be! Also, as someone who loves another person, I would want to know what builds love and what hurts the person I love, and I would want to do more of the things that build love and do less of the things that hurt. In a wierd way, that part is just common sense.<P>I hear what people are saying about rewarding bad behavior and an escalating competition, but I have to be honest--I don't think that's really Plan A, and I don't think that's what the Harley's had in mind. In fact, I'd say it's the exact opposite of the intention, because Plan B is quite a bit about standing up for yourself and not being a doormat. I can't imagine my H sneaking off with the OW and my reaction would be meeting his ENs at the cost of my own self-esteem -OR- avoiding a discussion that needs to take place because it might be an LB. That really would be having his cake and eating it too!! What I can imagine, though, is staying true to myself. If he is sneaking off with the OW, I can still work on being a more forgiving person. See what I mean? It's about personal power, not about letting him have power over me.<P>Well, I could ramble, but here's my challenging question then. If Plan A is not forever, then when do you stop? What are the circumstances under which I would want to stop being the best I can be, trying to avoid LBs and trying to meet ENs? Honestly, that seems illogical to me, but I will keep an open mind until you can explain some of your thoughts to me! <P>P.S. I'm also posting this on the other thread.<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B><BR>Well, I could ramble, but here's my challenging question then. If Plan A is not forever, then when do you stop? What are the circumstances under which I would want to stop being the best I can be, trying to avoid LBs and trying to meet ENs? Honestly, that seems illogical to me, but I will keep an open mind until you can explain some of your thoughts to me! <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>To quote <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Dr. Harley's article</A> on this site,<BR>"My overall plan for marital recovery after an affair has three basic stages. The first stage separates the unfaithful spouse and the lover; the second stage maintains that separation through the period of emotional withdrawal experienced by the unfaithful spouse who is addicted to the lover; and the third stage recovers love between spouses, eliminates resentment of the betrayed spouse, and protects the marriage against future affairs. The goals of the third stage are achieved by following four rules (protection, care, honesty and time). <P>With this background, we're ready to talk about Plan A and plan B. These two plans are used in the first stage of marital recovery to separate the unfaithful spouse from the lover. They are alternative ways to deal with this objective and are both described in my book, "Surviving an Affair" (pages 75-83)." <P>and,<P>"Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other. <P>So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B." <P>We may be dealing mostly with semantics here. I think you and many others may be calling Dr. Harley's four rules Plan A. In any case, I suggest that reading Dr. Harley's article at the link I gave above will answer more questions than a thousand words from me.<P>Steve<BR>

{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}<P>I'm not on much anymore, but I want you to know I'm wishing you the best of luck. I know what your going thru, I did it 8 years ago with the second split up of my ex and second affair. The third time was the final time for us. But anyway, I remember how agonizing it was. It took me about 18 months to feel as back to normal as I could but there was never a complete recovery. Every time he was five minutes late, I had that memory or curiosity. <P>Good luck and keep your strength, you can do this, but it takes a lot of strength! Hugs, Dana<BR>