nb,<P>I, too, worry about your 16 year old son. It seemed from your previous posts that you were definitely his primary parent. And from what you have said, he was certainly not one of those "resilient" kids that people claim exist (not that I believe they really do). <P>I have not seen my 20 year old for almost 6 months, because she is studying abroad. I miss her so much that it literally hurts...<P>

Hi Nellie,<P>Yes, you're right. I was absolutely his primary parent. There are two major reasons I didn't take my son with me, although I wanted to:<P>It took me years to get him settled into the Hospital Home Care situation where he is. I got his schooling settled, his therapies, and his doctors. I didn't want to take him from that.<P>I was moving out of the country. I have to get myself settled, and then can work on getting him here with me, if his father will allow it. David and I talked a LOT before I left, and he seemed williing to work with me on this. <P>Don't get me wrong. I miss my kids horribly...achingly... all three of them, no matter what their ages. My daughters, of course, told me that they were leaving soon anyway, and David and our son both said that they wanted the chance to work at this together. David would have PREFERRED that I stay and handle things for our son, but he did feel that he could find his place to shine as a parent through this, as he hadn't before.<P>I'm sorry you're still here Nellie... I know you're still in so much pain. Take care.<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 09, 2001).]

Hi Sheryl,<P>Darn it. Why can't we friggin escape this place? Obviously, we both have issues that have not been resolved, whether it is grief, resentment, fear, whatever. Ugh. <P>At least K and Bystander (now, where is JL?), my favorite folks, have replied to you. I guess they've given up on me. <P>Hey K,<BR>About three years ago, I asked you if you knew of a good nunnery. I suppose that has turned out to be prophetic. I've been celibate now for almost two years. Hope all is going well with you. You are still one of my favorite people here, but I'm glad you don't feel the need to be here as often.<P>Bystander,<BR>You too! I'd rather be celibate than honest... Some things never change <P>And JL, if you are lurking out there...glad that you've found other things to do than obsess in this place like me and Sheryl.

Sheryl: I am not all that familiar with your story but will try and do a search later. My XH left myself and our 2 children and moved 3000 miles away to be with the OW. I understand if I was so awful to be married to;however, what I will never come to understand is how some other human being can be that much more important to move that far away from his young children. Why he couldn't stay in town and be available for them I will never understand. They miss him so and he says he misses them to pieces too and cries at night so then why? Why not do something about it? Your story peaks my interest because of similiar circumstances. I don't want to judge you for your choices - everyone's situation is different. I just don't get how one can still be in their children's life so far away. And I also can't imagine how your XH would allow his son to move so far away from him down the road. I wish you well - I really do!<P>Missy3

Hey Sheryl, 'ol pal,<P>me again. I'm reading through the posts here and one thing comes to mind....<P>In my own experience, when new people come on board, they haven't seen the whole, (darn, what is the word?) drama unfold. Even the old-timers, like me, K, Bystander, JL, and a few others here, have only seen what you (and others) have shared on this forum. Coming back now will only encourage you to rehash alot of old stuff and reopen old wounds. Maybe there is a reason for this. Regret, second thoughts, resentment, pain. As much as this place can suck sometimes, it does kind of provide a sense of history to our agony. In times of uncertainty, I think both of us (me more than you) come back here to relive this junk. Why? I can't speak for you, but for me it is maybe masochistic at times, alternating to punishment of people who remind me of my ex.<P>In my oh-so-lengthy time here, there is one and only one thing I've learned here. Appearances are deceptive. Almost everything we call "moral" behavior is subjective. Take a look at any person here. Even if they haven't done the things you've done, or sinned in the exact same way, odds are pretty good that they've hurt someone, somewhere. The only "sins" in my book are failing to learn from your mistakes, arrogance in believing my sin is somehow not as bad as YOUR sin, being too "lazy" to make a change, and not taking responsibility for one's own behavior.<P>I do worry why you are coming back here now, as I worry about my own self. We both need to leave this place.

OMG!! OMG!!! OMG!! OMG!!!<BR>I just couldn't believe my eyes!! Sheryl, I am sooooooo glad to hear from you!!! I saw this post and went to clean my reading glasses to make sure I saw the poster's pseudonym correctly.<P>I'm so glad to hear from you!(I already said that didn't I). And reading the replies to this post took me back over a year to when the board was so much more active and so much more a positive place. <P>You know you are one of those here that I owe my sanity too. Missed you big time(especially after you trashed the one e-mail address I had on you).<P>(Pardon me for a sec..) TL, good to hear from you again. Your story was one incredible saga. I sure hope you are doing well!!! <P>If you still have my e-mail addy, send me a note and I will update you privately. Think most of the people on the board either don't know/care or are tired of hearing from me, so I don't post much anymore. Even if I did, there isn't as much fun here as there was in the past, what with the frozen salmon, pop-tarts, flaming cats, etc...<P><BR>Big, huge "platonic" hugs to you(haven't said that since you left)<P><BR> -- DeWayne -- <P>P.S. I think I started posting here about a month before you, so we went through a lot together and I still feel gratitude to you. <p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited March 09, 2001).]

My dear, dear friend, <B>TheStudent</B>,<P>I'm gonna address both of your replies here:<P>Yes, I wonder why I came back here too... <P>I've always said I just loved people here and wanted to help. Maybe I'm not really in the position to help much... and you are so right about people not knowing the whole history... but even when some do they don't understand how I could have done what I did -- and I mean with regard to everything from my divorce to leaving. <P>I think I wrote to process my thoughts on a forum where I could get feedback... and yet, I knew before I hit the "submit reply" button that I was opening up a HUGE can of worms. <P>Maybe I am still punishing myself. After all, I knew that I might get flamed... <P>HOWEVER, nearly everyone has been <B>very supportive</B> and is trying to understand my motives. Whether this was the right or wrong thing to do (postiing, I mean) remains to be seen... we will see.<P>Big Hugs, and much love to you...<P>Hi <B>missy3</B>,<P>I appreciate your thoughts, and believe me, the distance between my children and me, and possibly between my ex and the kids, has all been thought about, talked about, and cried about... it was the most difficult decision I have ever made.<P>Ohmygosh it's <B>Heartpain</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...reading the replies to this post took me back over a year to when the board was so much more active and so much<BR>more a positive place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know!! It's been wonderful to hear from everyone... and it has been a healing process, for the most part.<P>Thank you for your kind words about how I helped you at one time... and I owe you a debt of gratitude too... you were always one of my fav guys!!<P>DeWayne, send something to the old email (not work though) addy... it's still there, just not active at all. I'll forward to my new address and we can go from there!! I'd love an update! <P>Big, huge "platonic" hugs to you(too... how fun, I haven't said that either!!<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 09, 2001).]

Sheryl,<P>I'm not trying to imply that coming back is necessarily right or wrong for you. For me, it has started to become quite an unhealthy place. You know, my only wish is for you to be whole and at peace. I haven't found that here. In fact, I think Harley's principles tend to promote an atmosphere of selfishness and manipulation. It distills something that is supposed to be spiritual (a life-time commitment) into something base and duplicitous, "meet my needs, or else". Maybe he's just practical. Who knows? <P>

Oh Stu,<P>I only meant that *I* have wondered if it's "right or wrong" for ME to have come back here... and for some of the reasons you mention. I know it isn't always the most healthy for me to be here... and yes, it became an obsession... and I did "leave" about five times, only to return. I keep trying to tell myself it isn't for selfish reasons... I don't know.<P>Hey, you know how I see Harley's stuff... not "meet my needs, or else" but rather, "MEET HIS/HER NEEDS OR ELSE"... I know you see the difference. <P>I am honestly thinking about my motives in coming back here... I've exchanged a few emails with some old friends, and there have been some rather *harsh* reminders to me... so yes, I'm still thinking about what I hope to gain, or give, by coming back. Maybe, just maybe, this will FINALLY bring some kind of closure for me. I hope so.<P>Actually, I've come back for an edit... the Harley material has merit, I believe. I think it does work in some cases, and it is proven by some couples here. In some cases it doesn't work, hense the D/D board. I love the idea of meeting needs, and Plan-Aing everyone in your life, and also trying to avoid what Harley calls lovebusters. As I said above, which I believe, about "meet his/her needs or else" is true too. I knew a preacher who stood at the pulpit and said, "be a good H or W or else your spouse will find someone who is"... I guess the question would be WHAT DOES THE WORD 'GOOD' MEAN? And therein lies the issue to debate. <P>Anyway, thanks for helping me regroup and rethink my motives for being here... I never, ever mean to hurt anyone... I guess I should include myself in that one, eh?<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 09, 2001).]

Sheryl,<P>Sorry I'm lagging behind the crowd here...But it is good to see your name on the boards...I won't go into my opinion because I think you already know it...What most don't know are all the events that led up to your current situation...So judgements have been passed without all the information...That is too bad...<P>As far as comming back here to relive old pain...That certainly has some merit, but I come hear because this place was and is a haven in my oh..so chaotic world...It is filled with experience, strength and hope.<P>Love Ya,<P>Bill

Oh Bill...<P>What can I say... but... THANK YOU.<P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...this place was and is a haven in my oh..so chaotic world...It is filled with experience, strength and hope.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh yes, this is what brought me here over and over again over the last 18 months... and I think what I *thought* brought me here now... except... now, as I've written above, I am wondering if I was using/sapping my friends here on MB. I'm thinking... I am.<P>Love you too.<BR>

NB,<P>Here's my problem with the Harley approach...see, this is my opinion of the function of marriage...<P>"The purpose and function of (my husband) is to grow to be the most of which (he) is capable, not for my benefit but for (his) own and to the glory of God"<P>"Genuine love not only respects the individuality of the other but actually seeks to cultivate it, even at the risk of separation or loss. The ultimate goal of life remains the spiritual growth of the individual, the solitary journey to peaks that can be climbed only alone. Significant journeys cannot be accomplished without the nurture provided by a successful marriage or a successful society. Marriage and society exist for the basic purpose of nurturing such individual journeys. But, as is the case with all genuine love, sacrifices on behalf of the growth of the other result in equal or greater growth of the self. It is the return of the individual to the nurturing marriage or society from the peaks he or she has traveled alone which serves to elevate that marriage or that society to new heights."<P>--The Road Less Travelled.<P>I do agree with alot of the lovebuster stuff. Mostly because many "lovebusters" come from a lack of respect, lack of understanding, and fear. On the other hand, the emphasis on "getting your needs met" makes me ill. Probably because so many people here have focused on dating, and the "what's in it for me" scenario. They've already got this list all lined up before they even step out the door. Anyway, I digress.<P>I know what you've been through, and in my VERY HUMBLE AND CARING OPINION NB....be careful. One of my goals in staying here is to thicken my skin. It has come at some price, however. I'm pretty sure that is not your goal. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 09, 2001).]

Ok Ok!<P>I guess I will have to post here. <P>Hi TS have you defended yet? <P>Hi Sheryl, you KNEW I couldn't stay away.<P>I would like to address TS's comment about the Harley approach. <P>TS in a way you are very right. But I think you are missing something. On a very slippery slope everyone is grabbing and clutching to find a toe hold to stablize themselves. Clearly, an affair, or the marriage breaking up is a very very slippery slope. I have always thought that the Harley method or approach offered a way to get a hand hold or a toe hold. Working on yourself Plan A, is a very productive thing to do even if your spouse isn't a jerk, but in the case of an affair or the spouse wanting out of the marriage, it gives you something productive to do while that spouse reevaluates you.<P>The issue of needs is the same thing. I doubt that anyone has all of their needs met at anytime. Further, I doubt that anyone really knows what their needs are until they are confronted with the idea that they have them. Finally, those needs change. I have always thought that meeting needs and having needs met, was a very good idea for getting people to shift their focus away from their pain and on to helping the spouse through a tough time. <P>Now as you said TS people can then become very focussed on getting their NEEDS met. If that happens, then the chance of success goes way down. So to me the Harley method is a very a method steeped in charity to the spouse, a source of evaluation, a way to dealing and rationalizing the events that are transpiring, and finally a way to allow time to pass and healing to occur with a minimum of damage occuring to either of the marriage partners.<P>Does this sort of square with what you are thinking. It is also clear that if one becomes too focussed on one aspect of this approach, then a rather unsavory transistion occurs. <P>Of course, I do know why your are here TS. You like to debate. Where else can you debate with people that understand your circumstances, where many know your source of pain, and will tell you what they think. You come here to talk, to speak your opinions, and to think about a subject that is very important to you. Right? Of course I'M RIGHT. .<P>As for you Sheryl, hang in there. I suspect it is good to post to people that know you a bit. Whether they agree with you or disagree with you, you do know you are amoung people of good heart and spirit. So take the comments in that spirit as well.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited March 09, 2001).]

Hi Sheryl,<P>Guess who? Yeppers, it's the Village Idiot.<P>God, our stories are so similar. I also have met someone here from the boards. I tried my damnest to get back together with Val over the last two years to fix the M. I even spoke with her two weeks ago to make sure she was positive about there being no way in Hell to reconsile. I needed the closure. It's over, done, finished. I can walk away with a clear conscience, not sure about her.<P>Anyway, most folks here know who I linked up with. She is planning on moving here this summer. We have no expectations of each other than to have a great time together. We will always be the best of friends, she understands my humor. If something more comes out of it, GREAT. I have to believe that WE have a far better chance of this being till death do us part because we understand the principles and the concept of LBs. <P>Of course K is right and could say the same of me. But, sometimes you just gotta do it. Life is too damn short. I have found happiness, something that I lacked for years, just wasn't aware of it. Life is good again for me.<P>I wish you the best in your new relationship. Good to hear from you.<P>Your Bud,<P>Tim

TS,<BR>JL has a good analogy on the needs topic...He surmised what i struggled putting into words...You are correct in your asumption of the taker ruling the EN landscape....that IS dangerous...but if the giver in you is meeting ENs then it is in the spirit of commitment..<P>Bill

Hi again <B>Stu</B>,<P>I was going to copy and paste so much of what you said about marriage and it's function. What else can I say than I agree...and really, much of the Harley material DOES agree with you too... <P>My gosh, what you said about being careful... I also very MUCH agree with that. I have been on this site nearly all day (I'm in the east, and it's nearly midnight now)... so you see how addictive it can be. I haven't even gone to other postings... so caught up in my own. I don't want to thicken my skin, and you don't need to... we just want peace and understanding. I think we have found some... and you have mine. I think you know that... and you have my friendship as well, for as long as you want it. <P>Hey <B>JL</B>,<P>Thanks for dropping by! <P>Your comments to TS are well thought out and I understand where you're coming from too...<P>...and about what you've said to me... thank you for understanding, and yes, I know that most folks here are coming from a place of caring.<P>OMG <B>Tim</B>!!<P>You nearly have me in tears... <P>First, thank you for coming here and sharing your story. I haven't been around for quite awhile, as you know. <P>I am almost at a loss for what to say, and that is something quite amazing, as you know! <P>All I can seem to come up with at this moment is this: I have, at times, felt very alone in so much of what I've gone through in the last six months... although I've had some wonderfully caring friends, both RL and among this board (and you all know who you are)... I couldn't quite come to terms with the choices I was making, and felt terribly guilty, as I said in my original post. It wasn't about my marriage, but the feelings surrounding this new relationship. I've felt like defending and justifying my feelings, and I have felt that it was wrong of me to even try to do that, although, again, I've had a good support group despite that. You are one person who truly does understand what happened, even without our having spoken outside of this place. <P>I thank you for coming here tonight, putting yourself on the line, and reaching out to me.<P>I'm sending you good wishes Tim... <P>

Hey Sheryl!<P>It's good to hear from the Mega-thread chaperone!!! (Actually, I was thinking of starting a new mega-thread! Ya know, just to see if it could be as fun as the first! LOL)<P>I won't comment too much about your current situation. But I will say, I can completely understand where you are coming from! It had to be a hard decision for you to make and I'm sure you weighed the pro's and con's! <P>I wish you all of the luck and happiness you deserve!<P>Hugs,<BR>Mitzi

Okay Sheryl....where's my mail????? Never got it. Are you sending it to the right place? Please, please resend...<P>Your friend,<BR>Tanya

Hey <B>Mitzi</B>,<P>Thanks for the well-wishes!! Yeah, that mega thread was so much fun... even from the sidelines (although I did get a good tan! - LOL).<P>I hope you find the happiness you so deserve too!<P>Hi <B>Tanya</B>,<P>You have mail, dear lady!!<P>Hugs!

Hey JL,<P>You got me pegged The best part about this PhD thing is that I get lots of opportunities to debate!!<P>I'm proposing soon, and am also starting to write my dissertation. Work/school is going fabulous!! Crossing my fingers and hoping for a June 2002 graduation. <P>Sheryl,<BR>You can just blend everything that JL said into my previous post. I do agree that Harley's methods tend to minimize emotional/irrational and likely long-term damaging behaviors, along with alot of the other things JL mentioned.