I was important to me that whatever happened, my kids did not lose their father completely. A lot of my decisions were based on that. I made it easy for him to see them whenever he wanted. I was flexible in regard to scheduling. I did not move far away, where housing is cheaper. <P>I have come to regret all those decisions. For one thing, it made no difference - he spends less and less time with them as the months and now years go on. My first priority should have been securing their financial future. I should have moved immediately to a cheaper area, when I could afford the housing there on the child support alone. I should never have made the assumption that he would remain employed - he has not had permanent employment for almost 11 months now. Now, I am between a rock and a hard place. I can't qualify for housing where it is cheaper without a job, and I can't qualify for housing here even with my job - even though it pays pretty well. Housing assistance is not even an option, because only about 5% of the people who qualify are able to find places to live that accept the vouchers. <P>There is one thing worse than having your spouse desert you and the kids for an OW. It is having that happen, and then end up destitute as well.

Nellie,<BR>I am so sorry.....yes in our attempt to keep their father involved in our kids lives we have,in very different ways made it worse. You are financially destitute,my children are rotten. Same reasoning to have their father in their lives,different consequences...and only due to the fact that I do not need H's money...or I would be in the same boat as you.....<BR>This is all control on their part....in your case it was to leave you in a very dire predicament...in my case,since he could not control me by holding back money, he has done and succeded, in taking from me the one thing that was the most important.....being able to parent my kids so that they would become responsible adults(of course I hold the kids as responsible for buying into his behaviour....but they are not able to see the very pathological lies and manipulation<BR>he invests in his relationship with them....thet are old enough and should know better....but they do not so will have to live with this)<P>Can you notmove away now??????<BR>When this MLC and/or illness infects them,their behaviour is so alien,that no-one not intimately involved can even believe the craziness....because it is so out of character form the former human that lived in their bodies!<BR>Get your kids away from any part of him and do what is best for you all.

Nellie,<P>you had the best of intentions, and have the correct philosophy for bringing up children in a difficult situation to be the best they could. you should not regret your decision, you made it out of love and devotion to your kids and to your husband. the fact that you could not see the future as so different than the past is not to be regretted. no one can tell the future of people's actions, i agree with you! <P>it is such a risk, and you have been very trusting, and worked very hard at a situation that kept getting worse and worse. i can imagine that your situation really s!@#$%% to be completely honest, and i wish i had a ton of money, because i would send some of it too you.<P>take care, but don't beat yourself up over it. you are a great mom for holding your family together under some of the most bizarre conditions.<P>yeah, and i know we disagree, but don't for a second feel that i would wish what you have on anyone! you are amazing in that you haven't given up, and i respect that tremendously! <P>tom<BR>

willbok,<P>Yes, his behavior is so completely out of character - and unpredictable. I would move away tomorrow, to a cheaper part of the state, but, without a job, no one would rent to me. <P>Tom,<P>I really appreciate your support. Thank you. <BR> <BR>If I could have foreseen the future, I would never have left my well-paying, secure career. I keep hoping something will get better, but so far everything has gone downhill since 1996. Believe it or not, I used to be a fairly optimistic person. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited March 11, 2001).]

Nellie1,<P>I am so sorry to hear of your story. And I can appreciate at least in part the difficulties you are encountering. Sometimes it is just sooooo hard to think that there are better days awaiting us down the road, but you know what? There are! I promise. If you have friends and family like some of mine, I am sure you are hearing all the familiar phrases "its darkest before the dawn" "every cloud has a silver lining" and on and on.... <P>I have come to believe that the positives in your life need to start from within - That sometimes we need to reach deep down inside of ourselves for the strength to get through "just one more day".<P>I know that God is looking down upon us all, and I know that He is even more concerned with people such as yourself - someone who is not only hurting for themselves, they are hurting for their children - the innocent bystanders. Trust Nellie - pray. Believe in yourself and in God that things will get better and slowly, one day at a time, they will.<P>Use this time as a learning experience. Don't let life's turmoils get the best of you - you ARE better than that! You ARE better than your current circumstances (and that is all they are "current circumstances"). Hold on to your optimistic beliefs and they will get you through this *hitty time in your life.<P>My prayers are with you and your children!<BR>God Bless,<BR>Mike

Mike,<P>For six years I have been holding onto hope, and, especially in the last three years, things have just been getting worse. Hope has proved to be unwarranted. I'll just do by best to keep my kids from going hungry. <BR>

Nellie,<P>Ya know what, if you can't afford any hope right now, I'll give you some of mine! And some prayers to go along with it for you and your children.... I KNOW things will get better for you soon - I just know it!<P>hugs to you........<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Nellie1,<BR>Please don't lose hope. Things will get better & you will be that optimistic person you once were. I will keep you and your children in my prayers. <BR>Love & Prayers,<BR>Petrie

Nellie- I totally feel your pain. I just filed for bankrupcy and I still am struggling. I had no choice. My X left me with alot of debt and no money. I wish I had a solution for you. I work a full time and two part time jobs and I can barely make ends meet. Just know that you are not alone. If you ever need a place to go my door is open to you.<P>Jill<P>------------------<BR>live for today for there may not be a tomorrow

Mike,<BR>Thanks for your support. <P>Petrie,<BR>Thanks., I don't know which is worse, having your hopes constantly dashed, or not having any hope.<P>Jill,<P>I am so sorry about the bankrupcy. Thank you for your offer - I often wish I could just up and move there. I have found that the problem here is not even so much the pets and the number of children, but even finding anything at a reasonable rent.

I agree with what you wrote. I too regret my efforts to be nice and accomodating during this fiasco.<P>While there are some differences in circumstances and in the characters of the waywards, for the most part I think Plan A is totally ineffective with an uncommitted spouse that will not stop cheating, shows no regard for the feelings of the betrayed, and acts like the victim in the situation. I too feel that I wasted alot of time and effort, and that the decisions I made early on with the hope of reconciling have worsened my financial situation.<P>I have received no credit for my almost two years of a well-implemented Plan A. As recently as last week, my stbx made it clear to me that I am the evil party and he is the victim, and deserves to be compensated by the courts as such (?). Seriously.<P>At this stage, I cannot in good conscience recommend to any betrayed dealing with this set of circumstances much Plan A. If you were really rotten in the marriage, a short time in Plan A may demonstrate how you could be. But that's it. You have to start looking out for yourself early on before you lose too much, especially if you have children. The odds on turning around these situations are not great, and recovery has almost nothing to do with the behavior of the betrayed. It's all about the wayward and the OP, an aspect none of us can control.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>I don't know which is worse, having your hopes constantly dashed, or not having any hope.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've pondered this question many times myself. There's a <I>reason</I> hope shared Pandora's box with all the evils in the world.<P>Here are a couple of other questions: which is worse, to have one's trust betrayed, or to never trust at all? And is it better to have loved and lost, or never to have loved at all?<P>Sometimes our only choices are among different pains. Perhaps these are the choices that reveal our true character.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DISTRESSED:<BR><B>While there are some differences in circumstances and in the characters of the waywards, for the most part I think Plan A is totally ineffective with an uncommitted spouse that will not stop cheating, shows no regard for the feelings of the betrayed, and acts like the victim in the situation. I too feel that I wasted alot of time and effort, and that the decisions I made early on with the hope of reconciling have worsened my financial situation.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it's the character issue that really matters. Plan A is about trying to restore something that once existed, not about creating something that never existed in the first place. It will have no effect on a flawed character.<BR>

Distressed,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ecovery has almost nothing to do with the behavior of the betrayed. It's all about the wayward and the OP<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. There are undoubtedly extreme (and mostly illegal) things that one could do that would make reconciliation less likely, but nothing, positive or negative, within reason makes any difference at all.<P>According to the author of "Sudden Endings," men who suddenly leave long term marriages often believe, for no reason, that they are being persecuted by their wives. <P>Gnome,<P>I believe that this is way more than character flaw. Plan A makes no difference when the WS is suffering from mental illness. <P>Would I rather have never trusted or loved (not counting my kids/parents/sibling of course) - absolutely.

Nellie, I'm so sorry you find yourself in this position financially and also of questioning yourself re: the kids.<P>It is a very difficult place to be. As their MOm, you have done everything you possibly can to maintain civility (beyond the call of duty) to create an environment conducive to a relationship with their Dad.<P>At some point I guess we really have to examine our options as well. My H is in the picture with the kids, but like Willboks, in a very dysfunctional way. <P>I've accepted being the enemy to my H's vicimhood, but I think I finally decided not to allow my kids to feel responsible for his unhappiness anymore. <P>You know when they are that unhappy, there is much more under the surface than problems within a marraige. It is unfortunate that they keep finding a safety net to land in, which allows the underlying problem to go on.<P>I know you probably feel like I do, confused re: the direction to go it, because we have young kids. It is a dilemma because it is difficult to explain it all to them in a way that they could understand and not internalize as their problem. For me, it will be the distance of moving and us creating a new life and new memories that I hope will take some of the burdon off of them. I know the scars will always be there for them, but I have faith that we will go on and make the best life we can for ourselves despite this "event".<P>We all have only one life... We all are not getting any younger.... WE all have questions and no clear answers... We all have choices to make. I just hope I can teach my kids to rely on the core values inside of them so that when times get tough (and they always will) they won't be left with nothing... <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>According to the author of "Sudden Endings," men who suddenly leave long term marriages often believe, for no reason, that they are being persecuted by their wives.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, according to Bennett (or whatever her real name is), these husbands really <I>do</I> have a reason for this. It's a twisted psychological reason, with no basis in contemporary reality, but it's a reason nonetheless, and it's understandable.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Plan A makes no difference when the WS is suffering from mental illness.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This, I believe, is very true.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Would I rather have never trusted or loved (not counting my kids/parents/sibling of course) - absolutely.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But you <I>have</I> to count your kids/parents/sibling! The fact is, any of them could also turn on you. When you give love and trust, you are taking a risk. The only way to avoid that risk is to shut yourself off from other people completely.<BR>

tootrusting,<P>One of the many things I worry about is that my kids will see the conflict between their core values and the fact that their father is living a comfortable life, and apparently feels no remorse or guilt for what he has done. If he misses them, it is not at all obvious to the kids. People claim that it is his loss, but he does not appear to be suffering from loss. It certainly appears that the way to be happy is to do whatever makes you feel good at the moment. <P>GnomedePlume,<P>I think there is a huge difference between choosing to love and trust another adult, and loving/trusting your parents and children. You obviously don't get to choose whether to have parents or siblings. Your love for them is innate, as it is for your children.

Nellie, Exactly. It is something I have truly struggled with this past year. <BR>It is hard to try to raise children who have "boundaries", when they SEE that their parent has none. It is difficult to teach the importance of being responsible, honest, a resolver of conflict....or "happy" with themselves, when one of the people they will "mirror", has forsaken these qualities.<P>Some people will say that it is better for the child to have unlimited contact with the parent no matter what behaviors the parent exibits. (I realize your H has very limited contact with your kids)...but I really wonder about that.<P>Look at what we see going on right now in the world with our children...and conflict resolution.<P>My H wants unlimited contact...and even stormed into the kids counselor's office to ask why she thinks it is better for them to have a set schedule.....<P>But my H's unlimited contact..was simply to come to see them briefly... to have them do with him all the things he wants to do.... to react negatively to any behavior that was less than "perfect" or up to his high standards...as in acting like little automatons. He seems to feel that simply driving them to their activities when it didn't coincide with his important "stuff" like work and sports and telling his mother that he "loves" them...is enough.<P>I guess I don't see that as worth it enough for the kids to be around on a daily basis. <P>I just have to wonder what it REALLY does to kids to be exposed to such dysfunction. My kids seem to have taken it on themselves. Like living with an alcoholic, they seem to feel the burdon of his unhappiness. They have internalized it...taken it on as their own. If my son thought his dad was coming over he would drop his own kid life to take the brief crumb of time he would give him.... My son has been torn apart by this.<P>But my H doesn't KNOW his kids...anymore. what they are doing...who they play with, what they think, what they are learning in school. It isn't important enough for him to deal with. I keep wondering what this is really doing to them.<P>I think it was you on either this post or another that mentioned that at least if a parent dies...you may have good memories.<P>In this instance, it is more that the memories you have that were good....are of no value anymore.<P>I guess I still love my H, but I am certainly not 'In love" with him anymore. And it is not really the affair...or the baby that did it to me. Because as we can see on this site....it is just a cliche.<P>It really is more how he has treated me and the kids as human beings that I take issue with. <P>Anyway, we can't seem to do anything about them. What are we going to do about the kids??????????

The character issue is the critical one to evaluate. I agree with GnomeDePlume that Plan A will not create character when it isn't there to begin with. The problem is, how can you really assess this? In my marriage, there was no other major test of character that happened during our 17 years together.<P>One of my conclusions is that you are correct, usually the issue is about character and it is a pre-existing problem with this specific type of infidel. I think that during the marriage, the problem often isn't apparent because the marriage obscures it. In my household, I made nearly all the decisions, had all the friends, kept all the family relationships, and had primary responsibility for rearing the children. When I was removed from my husband's life (by his choice), his ineptness in all these areas was quite apparent. Then I was stuck with trying to determine whether something had "changed" within him (i.e. the fog/temporary insanity, depression arguments), whether I made a major judgment error that lasted 17 years (which I was unwilling to accept but may be the truth), or whether there were other environmental factors at play. I've concluded that I WAS THE OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL FACTOR that obscured the real situation with my husband. I didn't see the problems during the marriage because they weren't there under that set of circumstances (me taking care of everything).<P>Changing topics, I don't think it is for us to determine the relationship the wayward has with his children. In my opinion, we should neither help nor interfere. They are responsible for that relationship exclusively. We are powerless to do anything sustainable to help in any case (believe me, I tried). Since we question their values and ability as role models, we shouldn't be incentivizing additional time. We should just stay out of it and let them be whatever type of parent they can be. <P>Frankly, I don't think they're bad parents on purpose. It is all they're capable of, at least at this point in time. I also think that if WE do a solid job with our kids, they will see for themselves the nature of the situation and reach valid conclusions. The difference in parenting styles is overwhelmingly obvious in these situations. My eight year-old sees it but still loves his father (which is what I want). But watch to see where he turns when he has a problem, or seeks other viewpoints about an issue, or has an interpersonal relationship issue to resolve? He already knows the score.<P>It reaches a point where we all realize/accept the nature of what we're dealing with and have severely reduced expectations (that are reasonably accurate) of what our exes will do. Once that point is reached, we're no longer victims. It becomes meaningless to complain about the spouse. Each of us on this thread KNOWS that we are the only responsible parent. We need to consistently act accordingly. We cannot control our exes, but we can have a HUGE POSITIVE IMPACT on the lives of our children even under these circumstances. Our parental behavior is the most critical factor in our children's development.

D<P>Very wonderful reply. I don't know how long it took for you to come to your conclusions, but I think I am finally at the refusal to be a victim stage.<P>Your analysis is most helpful, as I have been struggling with how I could have MISSED any signs along the way in our 13 year relationship. Although I carried the emotional weight for our relationship, my H was very much a primary caregiver with the kids. He was devoted and loving and compassionate etc. etc. etc. So this is different behavior and I thought it was typical a behavior.<P>I'm thinking I was just my H's "supply" during these years. The kids and I were "it" for him.<P>He found a different supply OW who mirrored something else, and poof he became what she wanted. Not much depth there.<P>Unfortunatley, in my plan A...I let him have his way. Was out of my my compliant regarding this.<P>I agree with you. We are NOT responsible for their relationship with the kids. I tried to compensate for our kids because it was such a difference to them in about a week's time. I've finally gotton to the point of letting it be his responsibility. Like you, I want my kids to love their Dad, but I'd prefer they model me right now.<P>I really appreciate your reply, because I have spent so much time blaming myself for the demise of the marraige and doing Plan A, while my H and OW have thumbed their noses to everyone in this town with their blatant jr.high school behavior (and they are both 40something visible professionals), including a pregnancy and birth of their son. Plan A definately does not work when it is an apparent character or personality disorder issue.

do you want to know what the other part is that really sucks? it the fact that if it is a latent personality disorder, there is a chance it get passed on to the kids.<P>It was in my X's case. so be sure that your kids understand that the behavior is unacceptable, AND they may be subconsciously programmed to repeat the behavior, or even genetically.<P>Alot of this thought is brand new since the length of life radically increased over the last century.<P>will it ever end?