Many of us here are the ones who have been left. Many of us want more than anything to have our spouses back, right? Last night on my ride home from work and then for most of the night I began to ponder the following.... - what do you think?<P>------------------------------------------<BR>If we say we love our spouses more than anything. Shouldn't we want the best for them? Shouldn't we want them to be happy and safe NO MATTER WHAT? That is what love is right? The caring feelings you have for another person. The "perfect love" should, to a point, be unselfish and unconditional, right? Then why do we all expect/want our spouses to return if they are not happy in the marriage? Are we convinced that "we" can MAKE them happy in a marriage? What if we spent less time looking for ways to MAKE our spouses return and more time helping to better ourselves and giving our spouses the time to maybe find themselves again, would that bring them back? <P>Is our desire for them to return at any cost, selfish? <P>If you love someone, truly love them, and they hurt you, is it right for you to hurt them back? To talk less of them to others? To look for ways to make their lives miserable? Why do we think like this? Don't we still love that person? Are we just acting like children ("well he hit me first!")? Divorces, lawyers, judges, courts, anger, attacking, settlement agreements, vindictive behavior, belittling, stalking, etc... Why are we so quick to let the love we hold in our hearts become soiled and dirty?<P>I ask this to all of you. I have had these feelings in my life from time to time. Do we just blame it on human nature? Isn't that just a cop-out?<P>I have read right here on this board about people who have chosen and fought to keep these feelings out of their lives. Shouldn't we look to them as examples of the "right" thing to do? Instead of listening to the family and friends who suggest we "go for the jugular"?<P>If love is everlasting, then shouldn't we fight to keep it alive instead of always trying to "move on", "get over it", "she/he is not worth it", etc....<P>I don't know the answer, what do you all think?????? <P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

I haven't gone for the jugular, but neither have I handled everything with perfect calm, cooperation, and equanimity. <P>A lot of the problem many abandoned spouses have is the sense that the departing spouse is mentally ill. How could someone leave us, unless they're off-the-rails mentally? Well, if they are, perhaps we need to recognize that we had a hand in causing the derailment. If there is a derailment at all. <P>Right now I'm having trouble finalizing some issues with my ex. There is a powerful temptation to blackmail her, and a powerful urge to turn over the blackmail material to her as a peace offering. I have it locked up and out of sight, lest I do anything rash. <P>What I really need to do is communicate in person with her lawyer ... right now I'm providing him things <I>she</I> has requested, but there has been no reciprocity.

You ask some very interesting questions and I'm interested in the side of the BS. Interested in why some act the way that they do. See, I was the WS. I've been married to the OM for some time now and what I still think about is how different his ex and my ex handled the entire affair, divorce and now the co-parenting issues. Was the differences so different because of personality or gender? I can tell you the BETTER way to handle it. My ex went for the jugular, tried to black mail and turned himself inside out with bitterness and a need to get even. In the end it backfired on him something terrible and I think deep down he's still a very miserable man. I honestly don't think he really "hated" me and in fact I think part of the reason he acted that way was because he loved me. But then again, maybe after what I did he DID hate me. I was the spouse that originally wanted out. Even though I never changed my mind about wanting a divorce I never hated him, in fact, I did truly care about him. His reaction and his years of stalking and verbal abuse is what caused me to be sickened by the sight of him. Deep down though there are still times where I cave and feel sorry for him because I still feel somewhat responsible for the sick man he has turned into because I wanted out of my marriage. Now, my husband's ex did move on with her life in a healthy way. She has put aside her feelings towards him in an effort to co-parent well. They have succeeded. Now was she less evil because she loved him MORE or LESS?? Anyhow, your questions do get a person thinking.

BonnieSept,<P>Interesting.... These might be hard questions to answer by you (I think), but how do you think you would have felt if your X acted differently? If he just went on his merry way leaving you behind in the dust? If he made it seem like your marriage was not destined to succeed? Would you have thought he loved you then? Or would it have helped you prove your point to yourself? There was a woman that posted a message here that "floored" me - She wrote that at first her husband fought tooth and nail over the divorce, then suddenly he stopped fighting. In fact she said that he just "moved on". Here is the kicker! She wrote "well then he must never have loved me at all, if he can so easily move on with his life"!<P>Darned if ya do, darned if ya don't....<P>I won't stand here and judge you... all I can do is tell you in total honesty that what you did to your X was probably the most pain he has EVER felt in his life. I don't know your story, so I can only talk to you from my experience. To have trust betrayed by a spouse is the most heart-wrenching experience. As much as I don't think you any less of a person, you need to know that you have damaged your X in ways you can't even imagine. And you are probably right in thinking that is why he acted like he did. Many people can't deal with pain and hurt - to cover there feelings they resort to anger and spite.<P>You see Bonnie, the pain my wife inflicted on me is something I would not wish on anyone, EVER. My treating her with love and respect does not mean the pain wasn't/isn't STILL there. It will always be there. Next time I am called on to trust someone special, I will feel it. Next time I look to become serious with a woman, I will feel it. Next time, if ever, I get married again I will forever be fighting a little flicker of doubt in the back of my mind. I don't dismiss that I had problems (as did she) in our marriage, but we both promised and vowed that we would NEVER give up. Then she just changed her mind......<P>To be honest, in some ways I hope she feels the guilt of her actions for a while (again my human weakness - that is not "how" I should be feeling). Your husband's X wife may think like I do and may be acting in a gracious manner, but it does not take away the pain and hurt that she has probably gone through and probably still has in her heart. I have heard people who left their spouses say that what they did was for the best, BUT I have yet to have a spouse who was left tell me that they were happy with their X and glad there X left them...<P>One final question: If you are remarried now, why still come to the divorce area here? I'm really curious <P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

You carry a good discussion Mike. I first came to Marriage builders reading up on his and her needs and understanding each other. You see, my current husband and I had/have a strong relationship. Since I have been through one divorce I have made it my quest in life to learn from my mistakes. Believe it or not, I am not the same wife to my second husband as I was to my first and I take a lot of the responsibility for the failure of my first marriage. I do give some of the credit to maturity too. Getting married in your mid 30's vs. hardly 20 does make you a better spouse I think. I look at the divorce site because I am divorced, remarried yes, but divorced. Because I went through the entire divorce thing and was a single parent for awhile I hope that I can offer some understanding to some of you. I know how I went about getting out of my first marriage was wrong. I remember confessing my affair. He left the house, came back and for two weeks refused to discuss any of it with me. Then served me with divorce papers. Between the time he was told about my affair and my receiving the divorce papers he hooked up with a bartender down the road and moved in with her very shortly after discovery. How he reacted and how he acted for years after that first day can not be excused no matter how terrible my affair affected him. That in itself is a long story but with the help of his new girlfriend he destroyed his relationship with his parents/siblings and children. To answer your question, I would have preferred he shrug his shoulders like he didn't care and walk compared to how he actually reacted. Affairs not only affect the couple but they affect children, parents, siblings, friends etc...I have led many people to this site hoping that they keep their marriage strong before something happens.

Mike,<P>I don't think we want our spouses back because we think that we are the "right" match for them (at least I don't think so). Rather, I feel like we made a commitment to each other to spend our lives together no matter what, and even more so when we brought little kids into this world. <P>I'm sure if we were to go "comparison shopping" now, like our WS's did, there is a perfectly good chance that we WOULD find a better match. The point is, we made a commitment to not go "comparison shopping". As someone here said, we married "till death do us part", not "till the tingly feelings go away". <P>So I don't think we want our spouses back because we are selfish. On the contrary, I think we want our spouses back because we want THEM to stop being selfish, and to honor their commitments to us and to the kids.<P>Of course, the whole discussion is based on the assumption that we DO want our spouses back, and I think in many cases here (mine included) that assumption is very tenuous at best these days .<P>AGG

Mike, Mike, Mike!<P>First, I'd say drink some warm milk at night--maybe you'll sleep better (haha). These are some SERIOUS questions! Well, let's dive in, shall we?<P>You wrote: "If we say we love our spouses more than anything. Shouldn't we want the best for them? Shouldn't we want them to be happy and safe NO MATTER WHAT? That is what love is right? The caring feelings you have for another person. The "perfect love" should, to a point, be unselfish and unconditional, right? Then why do we all expect/want our spouses to return if they are not happy in the marriage? Are we convinced that "we" can MAKE them happy in a marriage? What if we spent less time looking for ways to MAKE our spouses return and more time helping to better ourselves and giving our spouses the time to maybe find themselves again,<BR>would that bring them back?" <P>Wow! Okay--when people marry each other, I believe the perfect goal for which we strive is "perfect love", which is unselfishly, unconditionally loving another human being above ourselves. HOWEVER, like so many of the spiritual things for which we strive, we are weak old human beings and we don't quick hit "perfect love." The fact of the matter is, we are selfish sometimes, we do love conditionally, and we do usually love ourselves more than we love our spouses. In fact, I think many of the spouses who do end up leaving have lost track of the goal of loving another person more than themself--they get selfish and only consider their own needs. Many of the spouses who are left behind do not want their stbx's to return--at all, period--because they are also thinking of their own needs, and not the needs of their stbx. But some of the spouses who are left behind want their stbx's to return because unlike their stbx, they are seeing clearly that two people CAN work out their problems and work to attain "perfect love" while their stbx is in a fantasy fog. As you know, Mike, the feeling called "happiness" is fleeting and fickle, and most likely the stbx is looking to someone else to "make" them happy, rather than realizing that they can create their own happiness right where they are AND that feelings come and go depending on how you ACT. <P>I have to admit, I love what you wrote when you said, "What if we spent less time looking for ways to MAKE our spouses return and more time helping to better ourselves and giving our spouses the time to maybe find themselves again,<BR>would that bring them back?" This is so profound and was exactly my interpretation of what Plan A was. In other words, I thought Plan A was not knuckling under to meeting my spouse's needs while he had OW, but rather, working to better myself, giving him the time to find himself, and (as I've said so many times) becoming the woman and wife and mother that God intended for me to be. I was so far from that mark that it is embarrassing now! But, thank God, I woke up and realized how far off the mark I was. I look at it like, if I become the person that God wants me to be, then He will send me the people who are supposed to be in my life, and I will be ready for them. If I am hitting my potential, it may be that my stbx will notice the changes, find the changes attractive, and come back. Or it may be that the stbx is not supposed to come back, in which case I will STILL be hitting my potential! If I am supposed to share my life with someone, and I am the acting as the person God intends for me to be, then I will be ready for that person. <P>Next, you wrote: "Is our desire for them to return at any cost, selfish?" to which I would answer, possibly yes. In fact, it is probably selfish. Wouldn't you say that a good portion of the reason you want your stbx wife to return is because YOU are lonely and YOU miss her? Selah.<P>Next, you wrote: "If you love someone, truly love them, and they hurt you, is it right for you to hurt them back? To talk less of them to others? To look for ways to make their lives miserable? Why do we think like this? Don't we still love that person? Are we just acting like children ("well he hit me first!")? Divorces, lawyers, judges, courts, anger, attacking, settlement agreements, vindictie behavior, belittling, stalking, etc... Why are we so quick to let the love we hold in our hearts become soiled and dirty?"<P>To this, I say AMEN BROTHER MIKE! I have to say that I do not think it is right to hurt them just because they hurt us. In fact, I think that we have a great opportunity to minister to ourselves and to them when they act like children and we act like an adult. When I was a child, I spoke as a child and acted as a child, but now I have become an adult and I am responsible for acting in a mature, adult way. I have taught this lesson to my kids when they were in their diapers: Get the Right Guy in Trouble. If the other person is acting like a mean, crabby, idiot of a jerk, that does not give you permission to act like that back to them. If you act like that too, you are no better than they are and you deserve to get in trouble too. BUT if you properly in the face of their acting out, then the right guy will get in trouble (THEM!) and you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you stood up and acted like a grown up! Isn't this the same lesson that we now must use as divorcing adults? If my stbx acts like a mean, crabby, idiot of a jerk, that does not give me permission to act like him! haha. <P>Next you wrote: "I have read right here on this board about people who have chosen and fought to keep these feelings out of their lives. Shouldn't we look to them as examples of the "right" thing to do? Instead of listening to the family and friends who suggest we "go for the jugular"?" Well--first I would say it's probably best to measure ourselves against a godly standard rather than against another human being, because we're all nuts and we all do wierd things. But, the more basic question of not listening to friends and family who encourage you to rip her to shreads--come on, Mike! You know the answer to this one. Every human being makes mistakes--even you and I--and so your stbx has done something wrong. That does not give you permission to do anything other than to fairly and patiently give him/her everything to which they are due. HOWEVER, I would warn you that I am not suggesting that you roll over and expose your jugular to your stbx, either. IMHO, it is perfectly reasonable to protect yourself and defend yourself--you just don't need to "harm" your stbx in order to protect yourself!<P>Last but not least, you wrote: "If love is everlasting, then shouldn't we fight to keep it alive instead of always trying to "move on", "get over it", "she/he is not worth it", etc....?" <P>Once again, WOW! This is a toughy. I think that we should indeed fight to keep it alive. Best case scenario, fight to keep it alive WHILE IT STILL IS ALIVE. However, unfortunately we are usually like big old boulders sitting in a field, and we don't see it dying until we are hit over the head with it, and by then, if it's not dead already, the spark of life is nearly out. I think some folks "move on" and "let go" because they are accepting that they can not change what is going to happen, much as we will often accept the fact that someone is going to die before they actually are pronounced dead. Yes, a small part of your heart still wishes for a miracle recovery and wishes that the dying person would live, but you get ready and kind of accept the fact that this person you care about is going to die. In fact, it may even be in that person's best interests to die (maybe they were sick for a long time, etc.), but for your own selfish reasons and for your own loss, you don't want them to go just yet. So, Mike, do you see any correlation here? You may not want your marriage to die, but some folks "move on" and "let go" because they realize that it IS going to die. I know, I know. As long as there is life, there is hope--and until the ink dries, there is life. But if your spouse has hardened their heart, and if the ink is going ot dry, for some, it is most reasonable to "let go" and "move on" rather than pining for the dead.<P>Well, there are my thoughts. Pretty philosophical stuff, huh? <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

AGG hit the nail on the head for me! <P>I could only add one thing: I cared for my Ex deeply. In a way I still do. While I want to see her happy, I also don't want to see her hurt. Not only did she throw away all we worked for together, she threw it away for an uncertain future with a man who has already proven he can't keep his committments!<P>I feel that, after a while, he will tire of her (or she will tire of him), and infidelity will most likely end their relationship. Once again, she'll be out on her own, looking for a "better" match, burdened by the pain of yet another failed relationship.<P>I would ask a question of the WS: Is your happiness worth another's pain? Are you willing to seek happiness at ANY cost, even if that cost is unbearable pain for your spouse, your children, and your family? Isn't that rather selfish?

Let's see, will try to answer these in order.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shouldn't we want the best for them? Shouldn't we want them to be happy and safe NO MATTER WHAT?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. However, one needs to factor in the fog. Sure, they will make a case that OP is the best thing since sliced bread, but what have they given up to get them? In my case, she gave up a husband, a girlfriend, two children, financial security, the respect of her friends, etc.<P>I don't think we should want them to be happy no matter what. What about my son, who breaks down at least once per week, wondering why his mother will not come home? Is her happiness worth the pain that he is going through?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is our desire for them to return at any cost, selfish? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In my case, yes and no. Sure, there was a time that I wanted her to come back because I felt as if someone took away one of my toys.<P>Now, I have no desire for her to return at any cost. As a matter of fact, I can see no significant chance that she will come back. One should never say never, but I can't see it happening anytime.<P>All I have ever asked from her (and she will probably dispute this) is that she be responsible for her actions. To take others into account when she decides to do something. She wasn't any good at it when we were together, and she is not any good at it now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why are we so quick to let the love we hold in our hearts become soiled and dirty?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There are many of us here, and I include myself in this group, who have gone the extra mile and then some to make our space safe for the WS to come back to. Only to have them s**t on our heads. I think this goes backto the question of "Is love unconditional?" I would say no. If you continue to treat me with disrespect, my love will eventually die.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you love someone, truly love them, and they hurt you, is it right for you to hurt them back? To talk less of them to others? To look for ways to make their lives miserable? Why do we think like this? Don't we still love that person? Are we just acting like children ("well he hit me first!")? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't intentionally try to hurt her. However, I will not be a doormat. We no longer have a marriage. That was her choice. We now have a business relationship primarily involving the children. Our parenting plan is the contract. I will not deviate from the plan, because every time I do, she takes advantage of it. If it hurts her that she can not see her children whenever she wants, well, welcome to adulthood. She made a conciouws decision that this is what she wanted. Don't blame me for your decisions.<P>Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. I would like nothing better than to have my life of 18 months ago back, but it is not going to happen.<P>

Dear SoTired2000,<P>You ask alot of interesting questions and others have addressed them with their opinions. I just want to address the first part of your questions....<P><B>If we say we love our spouses more than anything. Shouldn't we want the best for them? Shouldn't we want them to be happy and safe NO MATTER WHAT? </B><P>Wanting the BEST for someone is not the same as wanting them to be HAPPY. I think our society's quest for "happiness" at any cost is actually what is undermining our ability to be happy.<P>Sometimes the best thing for someone will actually make them sad...in the short term. But in the long run, the best thing for a person will eventually be the thing that will bring them true happiness.<P>When you love someone, you want the best for them. You want them to know that inner strength and integrity that comes from honoring their commitments; you want them to know that true happiness that comes from loving others in spite of their momentary feelings; you want them to know that doing the RIGHT thing, while not necessarily the "happiest" thing, is what will truely bring happiness in life.<P>Giving our kids a diet of candy, ice cream and chocolate just because it makes them happy is not really the most loving thing for them. Putting them to bed at night when all they really want is to stay up and be happy playing, is really the most loving thing for them.<P>Be very, very careful not to confuse love...even unconditional love...with happiness. True happiness comes from a long history of making good choices, based on integrity, love, unselfishness, etc. When people today talk about "happiness" they often mean "whatever turns them on." That kind of happiness is a momentary feeling...and will fade eventually. <P>That is just my opinion. I don't necessarily think I'm the perfect person for my H; but I'm the person he committed to and I committed to him. We made it work for 11 years and I know that the issues he said made him want to leave, could have been addressed, had he had the fortitude to do that. He just wanted to be 25 again, with no responsibility and no "demands" on his personhood. It's no surprise that this is the second time he's bailed out on a long-term relationship....he learned it from his Mom and it will forever be a pattern for him until he chooses to address the work that needs to be done, rather than jump to whatever makes him happy at the moment.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><BR>

Bravo to all!<P>I told you I was up a lot of the night thinking about these things myself!!!!! I view these questions as getting to the heart of the matter - not thinking about the OM or OW, not worrying about the financial ends of a divorce - but the actual feelings and emotions behind ALL of our actions.<P>One excellent point by AGOODGUY - You are exactly right! We can constantly search for the better person for each of us - our whole lives... We can constantly look for more and more happiness at every moment of our life (and we would probably continue to think there is more, right around the corner!). I see people like this everyday - searching, looking, desiring. But you know what they are NEVER HAPPY. They are never satisfied. In my opinion they are looking in all the wrong places! There is only one place to look to find happiness - true happiness. To me it is to look within yourself - the place where you can be at rest with who you are - the place you can go to communicate one-on-one with "the big Guy"...<P>God never promised us a great marriage to the perfect person. I recently read somewhere that some consider marriage to be the closest way we can get to loving, as God loves us..... That really made me think.... To be able to almost love as God loves His children - that is powerful stuff. Think how great His love is: To love someone IN SPITE of their faults. To forgive them, just because they ask us to. To place their wants and desires in front of our own - A LOT!<P>-----------------------------------<P>Many of these questions I go back and forth on. Somedays I feel one way, and the next it may change. The only way I can feel right or wrong about my decision is to think about how I would act or what I would say if God Himself where standing right next to me.....<P>Glad I got you guys thinking!!<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hey Mike,<P>Funny you should bring this up. When I last spoke to Val, I told her that I wish her the best. Her reply was "No, you dont" Um, yeah I do. Yesterday was the 2 year mark that she was asked to leave. I have made great progress in myself during this time period. I accept the responsibility for my actions and hold no grudges against her, her family or Brian.<P>I loved her. Ok, probably still do. I wish her no harm. Her response was guilt talking, plain and simple.<P>I have forgiven her for her actions and hope that in years to come she doesn't repeat her mistakes. I pray that she is not in the fog and will not be hurt or hurt again and proceeds in life with a clear mind.<P>My life has improved greatly since the seperation. So many opportunities have opened up for me that I would not have found with her.<P>Wishing us all the Best,<P>Zippy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjack: <BR><B><BR>I could only add one thing: I cared for my Ex deeply. In a way I still do. While I want to see her happy, I also don't want to see her hurt. Not only did she throw away all we worked for together, she threw it away for an uncertain future with a man who has already proven he can't keep his committments!<P>I feel that, after a while, he will tire of her (or she will tire of him), and infidelity will most likely end their relationship. Once again, she'll be out on her own, looking for a "better" match, burdened by the pain of yet another failed relationship.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I couldn't agree with cjack more. He expressed pretty much what I feel. Except, I <I>do</I> want my STBX to fall flat on her face. Not because I want to see things go bad for her, but because I want her to realize one day exactly what she has put me and the kids through. <P>Griz<P>------------------<BR>Sometimes the hardest journeys in life are not the ones you embark on alone, but those that you choose to travel together.

Mike:<P>I agree completely with your original post. <P>Jen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>Many of us here are the ones who have been left. Many of us want more than anything to have our spouses back, right?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, <I>I</I> certainly fall into that category. But I'm not sure how typical my situation is, since throughout our twelve years of marriage, both my wife and I tried to meet one another's needs. Our inability to do so was primarily due to my wife's unresolved family-of-origin issues, and our failure to understand that that was the problem.<P>Since there were relatively few love busters in our marriage, and since my wife's departure was so uncharacteristic and sudden, I don't have the kind of baggage that most people here seem to have accumulated.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If we say we love our spouses more than anything. Shouldn't we want the best for them? Shouldn't we want them to be happy and safe NO MATTER WHAT? That is what love is right? The caring feelings you have for another person. The "perfect love" should, to a point, be unselfish and unconditional, right? Then why do we all expect/want our spouses to return if they are not happy in the marriage?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I want what's best for my wife, and my love for her is unconditional. I believe I would give my life for her if circumstances called for that kind of sacrifice (and perhaps circumstances <I>do</I> call for that, in the sense that my commitment to her may well mean that I spend the rest of my life as a married bachelor).<P>I want my wife to be happy and safe. Although I personally want her back more than I want anything else in the world, my wife was not happy in our marriage, and so if she called me up today and admitted that she was wrong to leave me, I would still ask her <I>not</I> to come back if doing so would make her miserable.<P>So why don't I just abandon my wife to her own desires? My answer is that I truly believe that my wife's greatest potential for happiness lies in a restoration of our marriage.<P>I've been married to my wife for twelve years, and I knew her several years before that. I know her well, better in some significant ways than she knows herself, and better in some significant ways than her own mother knows her. I know my wife's character and her values. I know how she soaked up my love and my affection.<P>I don't claim to have been the perfect husband, but my failures were rooted in ignorance and human limitations. I can honestly say that I don't believe my wife could have found a better husband. And at the time my wife left me, she said much the same.<P>As I have come to understand it, my wife left because she felt she was losing her sense of self, and she panicked. She thinks the only safe existence for her is one without intimacy. But I know her, and I know that she will find such an existence to be bleak indeed.<P>Then there's the guilt aspect. I believe we are most at peace when we are doing what we know to be right. And knowing my wife as I do, I cannot believe that she feels no guilt over her abandonment of me and her subsequent attacks. I believe her sense of guilt will tear her up inside until she acknowledges her wrong and seeks to make it right. The best I can do for her now is to try to minimize the consequences of her actions and make it as easy as possible for her to make things right if and when she chooses to do so.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Are we convinced that "we" can MAKE them happy in a marriage? What if we spent less time looking for ways to MAKE our spouses return and more time helping to better ourselves and giving our spouses the time to maybe find themselves again, would that bring them back?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For a long time, I <I>did</I> believe that I could make my wife happy, and my failure to do caused my self-respect to plummet. But eventually I figured out that taking responsibility for someone else's happiness is foolish and wrong.<P>In my situation, there are precious few opportunities to influence my wife to return (let along MAKE her do so). My wife has made very sure of that. So all I <I>can</I> do is give her time to find herself again.<P>In the meantime, it would be foolish of me not to work on bettering myself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Is our desire for them to return at any cost, selfish?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't wish my wife to return at any cost. Rather, I believe that the cost of <I>not</I> returning will be higher for her than the cost of returning. However, if my wife <I>does</I> decide to return, I expect to recommend deferring that return until we are able to find a way of doing so that will minimize her trauma. Until she is a strong enough person to handle interdependence, I don't believe it would be wise for her to plunge right back into marriage, no matter how much I long for that to happen.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If you love someone, truly love them, and they hurt you, is it right for you to hurt them back? To talk less of them to others? To look for ways to make their lives miserable? Why do we think like this? Don't we still love that person? Are we just acting like children ("well he hit me first!")? Divorces, lawyers, judges, courts, anger, attacking, settlement agreements, vindictive behavior, belittling, stalking, etc... Why are we so quick to let the love we hold in our hearts become soiled and dirty?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sometimes you <I>have</I> to hurt them, because sometimes truth hurts. Sometimes love must be tough.<P>But that isn't what you are talking about. The hurtful and vindictive stuff...well, I confess that I have never had any inclination to do any of that. I am a bit concerned about whether I may have been too free with what I say about my wife when I tell others of my situation, but my intention has never been to put her down. In my view, when I say that my wife is acting out of desperation and dissonance, I am presenting a more positive explanation than the alternative, that she just decided she was tired of being married and that her vows were meaningless. However, I'm not sure my wife would see it that way.<P>I refuse to endorse the <I>other</I> alternative explanation, the one my wife has put forward, that I am a raging tyrant. Although that would certainly present my wife's actions in the most positive light, I am <I>not</I> going to lie for her.<P>My wife would probably prefer that I didn't say anything to anyone about what's going on between us. Out of respect for her, I said very little about our problems to our friends and acquaintances (except for our therapist) while we were still working on these problems. But when my wife abandoned me, I realized that I would never be able to cope without a heavy-duty support network, and so I opened up a lot more. I don't feel very guilty about it, even though the result may be that some people lost a certain amount of respect for my wife. In my view, her own actions are responsible for that, and I have done what I could to defend her character.<P>Again, my situation is somewhat atypical, but I have not had any problem with my love becoming "soiled and dirty". Every time I have to do something to defend myself, it causes me great pain. I do not want to hurt my wife, and even though I continue to do what I need to do to for my own protection, I am trying to do it without going on the attack.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I ask this to all of you. I have had these feelings in my life from time to time. Do we just blame it on human nature? Isn't that just a cop-out?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The feelings are natural. The primary cause of my depression was my belief that it was wrong for me to feel hurt and anger toward my wife for her neglect of me and my needs. I thought unconditional love meant that I should be free of expectations, even when all I was expecting was for my wife to honor her promises. I was wrong.<P>The irony is that when I finally allowed myself to feel anger toward my wife, I no longer <I>had</I> any anger. By that time I had come to understand enough about my wife's emotional problems that I felt only empathy for her, and did not take her treatment of me personally.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I have read right here on this board about people who have chosen and fought to keep these feelings out of their lives. Shouldn't we look to them as examples of the "right" thing to do? Instead of listening to the family and friends who suggest we "go for the jugular"?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think it's wise to listen to those who suggest that we "go for the jugular". However, I'm not sure what the best approach toward our feelings should be. It is dangerous to suppress feelings. Perhaps it's better to work on our actions and attitudes, and let our feelings run their course.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If love is everlasting, then shouldn't we fight to keep it alive instead of always trying to "move on", "get over it", "she/he is not worth it", etc....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have so many good memories. I don't know how I could keep them if I "got over" my love for my wife.<P>My objective is to find a way to "move on" that is compatible with maintaining my love and commitment toward my wife, while not requiring her active involvement in my life. I believe that for me, this is a realistic goal.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I don't know the answer, what do you all think??????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Obviously, I think too much! <BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited March 14, 2001).]

I don't know if anybody posted this or not as I haven't read all the posts, but when I told my then w that I would do what ever it would take to make her happy, I wanted to be in the picture too!!!!!<P>My x said some of the same things. "You said you wanted me to be happy!" And also I must not have really loved her when I treated her betrayal with lots of anger at times.