Here lately it seems as if it takes nothing to enrage most everyone here...Why have our diverse points of view become so combative???<P>We all share different experiences and ideas...<P>Here's what chaps my behind...<BR>Some of us post threads that are pure bellyaching...Constantly going on about how terrible things are...IMHO...<B>WE ALL KNOW HOW HORRIFIC DIVORCE IS !!!</B><BR>What we need to focus on, agian IMO, are solutions!! How can we get through this ordeal and still maintain some digity?? This happened so, I tried this then that happened so I tried something else, ect...Get my point??<P>What I see happening, is these threads turn into a pissing contest to see who is the most miserable and canget thier misery justified...<B>Pain is inevitable Misery is a choice</B> Then someone gets thier fellings hurt and all hell breaks loose...<P>Take the dating threads...They start out nice and cordial then degrade into a mudslinging contest...WHY ??? I think we all have very passionate opinions when it comes to this...Who is right ??? I think each argument has VERY valid points...So both sides are correct...That is the paradox of this thing called divorce...<P>Then you have the I hate my Ex threads...These are by far the worst...Nellie's last thread turned into a viscious cat fight...Why ??? Because of diverse opinions and thin skin...<P>A lot of us here a vets of this and a lot are newcomers...I pray newcomers don't get turned off and I hope the old timers don't run off with thier short pants in a wad highly offended...<P>The reality as I see it is this...We all have differing opinions, and hold those passionatly...Take what works for you and leave the rest!!<P>What I don't see happening in a lot of threads is people owning thier part in the demise of the marriage...If you are so perfect then why did your Ex leave??!! And how are are you dealing with it and what have you changed...<P>I don't buy into the it just didn't work out nor do I buy I didn't do anything, they just changed. BS!!! You did something. However small, we all contirbuted to our failed marriage. I know I sure as hell did, and I'm trying to change those shortcommings from within.<P>So all this being said...one of the solutions to my dilema is getting out of myself and trying to be a better more spiritual person...I try to take care of my health and am thinking about going back to school. I go to meetings regularly and talk to people how I feel. Most of all I use the tools I learn here to relate better to other people in general and yes that includes my self-centered ex.<P>Anyhoo....I just had to get that out...I love each of you dearly (some more dearly than others ) and I'm truly grateful you're in my life!!<P>Bill<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited March 19, 2001).]

Bill- <BR> Well said my friend. Well said. <P>

Hey Bill! <P>The MB referee!!<P>

Now c'mon Bill... tell us how you REALLY feel <P>Love ya to pieces and pieces,<BR>Sheryl

My name is Sue and I'm an ex partner in an ex marriage that I take 1/2 of the responsibilty of ending. Well, actually I take full responsibility for ending it, cuz it was my idea, but it was really his fault too. Oh hell, I'm happy!!!! Onward and Upwards!<P>Sorry Bill.. just had to

Bill,<P>"However small, we all contirbuted to our failed marriage."<P>Taking ones own responsiblity....don't we teach our children such? As adults we don't have any responsibility? It's all the "other guys" fault?!?!!<P>I contributed to my marriage demise for ignoring red flags while dating my x....pure and simple. <P>I wonder how many of us would acknowlege we had knowingly made a bad choice in a partner to begin with and darned well knew it, yet STILL made a marital committment with that person? (thinking we could change them, uh-huh)<P>Glad to see this thread Bill. There are no "perfect partners" here, including myself.<P>Ragamuffin<P>

Amen, Bill!<P>Well said.<P>I, personally, have never professed to be perfect. I did have a role in the demise of my marriage - and I know exactly what that was. However, I did find a mirror, look at myself, and figure out my role.<P>Like you, I don't like the tone of many of the posts. There are an awful lot of combative people here. And people taking their anger out on others. I don't mind venting posts but I do mind attacking ones. <P>Thanking you for reminding us to get that mirror and take a look at ourselves.

Bill,<P>Hey, buddy! I was wondering where you were--you've been mighty quiet lately.<P>Anyway, I couldn't agree with you more. It's painful enough to deal with the break up of a marriage--we don't need to be at each other's throats HERE too. I also like your ideas about discussing how we contributed, rather than concentrating our efforts on how foggy or irrational our spouse is. That's not to say they are NOT foggy or irrational, but we have no control over them and we DO have control over our lives. We can change ourselves!<P>So, Bill, are you brave enough to go first? I am! <P>One book that really helped to put everything into perspective for me was "Relationship Rescue" by Dr. Phil. From that book, I learned that I had a major bad spirit of not being able to forgive, and boy! What a burden that must have been to my H! Can you imagine being a human being, prone to mistakes, and yet if you make one, your wife will never, ever forgive and let it go? Also, without realizing it at the time, one of his biggest ENs is appreciation and yet I would pick out every little thing that he did wrong (not right), and never forgive him for it. You talk about being diametrically opposed to meeting his needs!! WOW!!<P>I'd have to say that I thank God for that book, and I encourage people to read it whenever I can. I know that a person's heart has to be ready to receive what is in there, but I think sometimes people start off all huffy and end up learning a WHOLE LOT about what they did to weaken the relationship. <P>Here's my current big dilemna, though. I realize that I'm not as forgiving as I want to be, and I also realize that I need to appreciate what he does RIGHT rather than looking for what he does wrong, BUT...knowing this (intellectualizing it) is so much easier than putting it into everyday practice! In particular, I am an INFP personality type and a Taurus by birth, and I just couldn't be more stubborn (or what Taurus' call: patience-heehee). It's not that I don't know how to forgive, or don't want to forgive, but I feel so hurt that I feel like "it's not fair" to have him hurt me like that and not have a consequence. Somehow, he should have to repent and repair--he should have to pay! <P>I'm learning (oh so crawlingly slowly) that life is not "fair" (knock, knock, knock--hello is anyone in there?), and that forgiveness and consequences are not mine to "give." It's not like I'm a superior being!! Forgiveness is almost like my duty to provide, when someone who has wronged me is truly sorry and is trying to make amends--even if their attempts "fall short" of my definition of making amends. Furthermore, the longer I hold on to the hurt and DON'T forgive, the longer I let the other person have some control over my life! And consequences are DEFINITELY not mine to impose! There is only One who can impose consequences, and here's a hint--it's NOT me! <P>So, there's my journey (somewhat) right now. The gauntlet has been thrown down...let's really share with each other.<P><BR>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Bill,<P>I agree to a point <P>I agree that the name calling, vindictive, mean spirited, judging posts aren't beneficial to anyone. But, if someone is feeling miserable and sad and feels like the world is closing in on them - I think they should post even more. Why? Because for some people, they are able to work through their emotions and feelings without saying (writing) too much. I think that men are usually grouped into this category. But there are other people who need to talk (write) a lot before they get to what exactly it is that is bothering them.<P>I don't think there is anything wrong with people voicing their opinions with such conviction - I have so often heard it said that "you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything".<P>Re-reading your post, I think that is part of what you are saying... I just wanted to re-emphasize that all are welcome to post whatever they feel or want to say, just watch the tonality in which you post. There is no reason to get mean and nasty or to attack just because you may be polar opposites on an issue.<P>Finally your point on personal responsibility I feel is a reflection of our overall society - so few people these days are willing to take responsibility for their actions. Watching the news this weekend I really began to believe that in our country, there is no such thing as an "accident" anymore. Everything that happens is SOMEONE else's fault. Just a quick example is a story I saw about the injuries and deaths that have occured at Home Depot from things falling off shelves and fork lifts. Are they tradgedies? Most certainly. Do I feel utterly sorry for the families of the victims - definitely. But have you ever been in a Home Depot when the employees are trying to work? I have seen countless people walk RIGHT UNDER a loaded fork lift. And not one visit goes by without me seeing children just running around the store with reckless abandon - no parents in sight. Now if something happened to one of these individuals, would they say "well I should have been more careful?" - I'd bet the ranch - no.<P>Kind of off the subject a little, but I just think it goes to our overall mentality of "its never my fault"....<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike <P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hi Bill, <P>Nice topic. As one of the "mudslingers" in another thread I'll comment that sometimes, someone can say something that just tops off the bad situation your currently in, in your own life. Sometimes, we all have a bad day, but sometimes certain personalities are just naturally going to conflict.<P>I haven't read the thread your talking since I posted, but agree, the main topics are venting, dating, and anger. That was why I took a break myself.<P>I think the group of people here are almost divided in half in 2 ways. One, the "vets" who came here the day this side , divorced, got open. That was a year ago almost, by my memory. Of course, we are now getting into dating. Then there are the new people just coming in.<P>Sometimes, we just need advice, from someone who's going thru it, and some people are getting afraid to post just because they'll get in a heated debate.<P>The other way we are split, are those that are still hanging on, and those that moved on. So its natural for us to disagree.<P>I take responsibility in my marriage ending. The only thing I am upset/bitter about, is that he left on xmas and I had NO clue he was unhappy. He didn't even give me a chance. I also missed red flags of an affair, but wasn't that knowledgeable either in that area. It does take 2, if we were that perfect, our spouse wouldn't have cheated.<P>I hope the newbies aren't frightened off, these topics just go to show that even once your divorced, there is a lot of pain after "its legally over".<P>Good luck, Dana<BR>

Really share? Okay, here's my part:<P>Like CJ, I had trouble really forgiving... mostly, I couldn't forgive David for his affairs of the 80's. I blamed him for moving me away from my family -- when he was actually moving us away from the OW(s)-- which in hindsight was GOOD, not BAD. Every so often I'd bring it all up. I held him responsible for every bad thing that happened in our lives... and thought all the good things were because of my doing. <P>When I began my affair (before it got physical), David asked me what was wrong. I cried and said said I didn't know. That was a lie. I DID KNOW, but I DIDN'T WANT TO SAY IT. Why? Because he might have given me a reason not to cheat. How's that for honest?<P>I'm not going to go so far as to say that David was a perfect H, or even a good H, but I wasn't the perfect W either -- or even a good one, at times. There were REAL problems, some of them significant and truly damaging. We DID NOT have a good marriage.<P>Hindsight is a beautiful thing, if you use it to learn something. I've learned a LOT, but clearly not enough.<P>Hopefully, I will be able to go forward with some dignity... but that's pretty hard to do when you're looking in the mirror at someone who has trouble looking back.<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Thanks all for replying...<P>In no way was I suggesting that we not have a conviction nor was I suggesting that people can't miserable...I have very strong convictions in a lot of areas...And I can easily become miserable...However, when I get miserable I hope someone will step on my toes and jolt me into action. What I refer to is those that wallow in self-pity and misery...That Is not healthy...<P>As far as opinions and ideal go, what I hate seeing is how we are so adimatly(sp) right that refuse to see another point of view...I may not agree but I ought to allow you to have yours without passing judgement. It is not my place to judge nor is it my place to be complacent. I can live by my beliefs and morals and allow you to live by yours and still be friendly. I can also be persuasive in my beliefs without being offensive. <P>As far as my shortcommings...I care not delve into those once again...If you want to know just look in my archives here, I have never made any bones about them....I lived in self-centered fear and neglected my exes needs and found her solice in another man...<P>Bill

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>Watching the news this weekend I really began to believe that in our country, there is no such thing as an "accident" anymore. Everything that happens is SOMEONE else's fault. Just a quick example is a story I saw about the injuries and deaths that have occured at Home Depot from things falling off shelves and fork lifts. Are they tradgedies? Most certainly. Do I feel utterly sorry for the families of the victims - definitely. But have you ever been in a Home Depot when the employees are trying to work? I have seen countless people walk RIGHT UNDER a loaded fork lift. And not one visit goes by without me seeing children just running around the store with reckless abandon - no parents in sight. Now if something happened to one of these individuals, would they say "well I should have been more careful?" - I'd bet the ranch - no.<P>Kind of off the subject a little, but I just think it goes to our overall mentality of "its never my fault"....<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not to go off topic, but a store owes its patrons a safe environment. If they want to run forklifts in there during hours when the store is open, they can darn well find a way to do it in a safe manner. And if they want to make things "self-serve", or even mark it "ask for assistance" but leave it accessible to the average doofus, then they bear some responsibility for whatever happens, and will have to pay. <P>Juries rarely run amok. And yes, there are fraudulent schemes for collecting from big companies ... some even involving potentially deadly staging of auto accidents with innocent third parties. <P>But I'm almost willing to state categorically that there is no such thing as an accident (for cars and trucks, the feds now call them crashes -- not accidents). We can go back, and find out what went wrong for most of them. And usually, someone could have done something better, and it wouldn't have happened, or wouldn't have been so severe. If they're not made to pay, where is the incentive for them to improve? (insurance companies pay -- but they provide the incentive through their rates and discounts). <P>I personally am blown away when the petty officer on the <I>Greenville</I> testifies that he wasn't properly plotting ships in the area before the sub surfaced. Here is a person following the military's admirable tradition of accepting personal responsibility ... and the military also accepts its collective responsibility when things go wrong. The Navy <I>will</I> be responsible to the Japanese families. Instead of just saying <I><B>accident</I></B>. <BR>

I agree with your post.<P>As to my marriage, I take quite a bit of responsibility for it's failure. But, I don't want to say it all again. There was a post recently where we all spilled our guts regarding what we did wrong. Maybe we should pull that up from the archives and get re-focused on ourselves.<P>Great idea. <P>

I think being able to take responsibility for one's behavior and flaws are a very good thing. I think being able to vocalize what one's needs are generally are helpful in promoting peace and reducing confusion....yet the divorce rate in this country is nearly double that in other countries. While I don't support the cultural practices in all other countries that sometimes make this possible, it is pretty tough to understand when you look at other Westernized countries and try explain the differences.<P>People in these other countries don't have a lock on marital skills. As a culture, our notions about marriage and it's function are flawed. It has little to do with "needs being met" or being the perfect person. As long as there is no stigma attached to divorce and subsequent re-marriages, then the divorce rate will not decrease. As long as people think that marriage is about romantic feelings, they will hop from person to person the second their feelings fade. <P>With every divorce and remarriage we teach those around us (our children, friends, relatives, coworkers) that divorce is a natural part of life. Just an "oopsie" that can be fixed as soon as we find someone new.

TS,<P>I agree 100% with you points above...<P>What in your opinion does one do when they are divorced and didn't want to be?? Or I should say thier spouce divorces them basicly against thier will??<P>This is the big dilema IMO...It is next to impossible to married to someone that doesn't want to be married to you...I venture to say that a majority of those on this site were divoced in stead of the one that divorced...Make sence?? I know I wasn't given much of a choice in the matter...<P>Just curious...<P>Your good friend.<P>Bill <BR>

Bill,<P>Yes, that is the BIG dilemma. Since I've always had a bit of the activist in me, I tend to believe that that the actions of individuals can and do have an impact on others. <P>I can't force others to make the same choices as me. I don't believe in passing laws, or whatever. I vote with my feet, as they say. I don't purchase books, watch movies, buy magazines, or remain friends with people who condone infidelity, directly or indirectly promote the "excitement" of an affair, or minimize the effects of divorce. I mentioned on another thread that subsequent "marriages" I call a commitment ceremony or a "union". As far as I'm concerned, marriage--in its true sense--happens only once or until either spouse dies. For instance, I lost my virginity just once. People would think it was ridiculous if everytime I had sex with someone I claimed to be a virgin, and I think it is ridiculous for people entering a second (or subsequent) marriage after a divorce to make a life-time commitment. If people feel the need to make legal arrangements approximating marriage then they can have a civil union without "vows". Basically just sign a piece of paper recognizing certain legal rights and responsibilities. Of course, the couple can call their relationship anything they want and noone will stop them. <P>I don't know what to say to address the issue of whose decision it was to divorce. I'm more concerned about the impact upon those who have never married and are contemplating marriage, or those who are in their first marriage and are contemplating divorce. If people knew that they wouldn't be getting all the "perks" of marriage a second, or third, or whatever time around, I wonder how things would be. <P>I recognize that this applies to me as well. In my first "marriage", there was no promise of a life-time commitment (which didn't become obvious until we were both at the altar and I was too stunned to stop the proceedings). The second "marriage" was indeed a life-time commitment. I personally won't be making that promise again.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 20, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>I personally won't be making that promise again.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Famous last words.<P>

TS,<P>Interesting take on things...Should I kill my ex so I can be freed <B>I'M KIDDING FOLKS!!</B> I try to convince my friends that are having marrital troubles or are seperating to concider the ramifacations of thier actions...In fact just week I learned that a friend has the "Hots" for me...She and her H just seperated...When told by another friend that J wanted me to ask her out I said NO, I don't date married women!...My friend gave me a curious look and shrugged...Needless to say it disheartens me to no end how little people put in marriage...<P>Sis,<BR>Go easy....<P>B

Bill & TS,<P>When I got married, being happy was really not the first thing on my mind. I was more concerned with just "being" with my wife for the rest of my life - sharing things with her, laughing with her, learning and growing with her. For me watching her grow and expand her horizons was such a thrill. She loved children so I told her never to worry about money, if she wanted to teach kindergarden (like she was) and made her $12,000/year - it did not matter to me. As long as she was happy.<P>I looked at marriage from the point of view of what amazing things we could accomplish together - raising a family - sharing both our established families... making a difference somehow in this world for our children. I partly became a work-a-holic because of the stress I put on myself to be a success - NOT FOR ME, but FOR HER so that she could be proud of her husband.<P>If you notice, nowhere above did I mention "making me happy". I learned long ago, and I was raised to believe that happiness came from within - Just as no one can MAKE you unhappy, you can't expect anyone to MAKE you happy. Someone could be spitting in my face and I still could make myself happy. Or I could be in the worst mood of my life and there right in front of me could be Robin Williams (he cracks me up) and I still could choose not to be happy.<P>I find it so sad when I meet people, like my wife, who look to other people and things to make them happy. In fact part of that started to rub off on me throughout our marriage. Then I "woke up" all over again and realized the one thing that ALWAYS can MAKE me happy and that is the Big Guy upstairs! But I don't even think that you need to have God in your life to be happy - look at Budda or some of the other "enlightened" people in history. Some of them did not believe in God, but were still at total peace with themselves..... And they were happy.<P>People are amazed when I tell them I miss my wife more than you can imagine, but I still am happy. Sometimes I don't even understand how that can be.....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.