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Hi all. Its been awhile since I last posted so allow me a moment to catch those of you who are interested up.<P>I had been plan A'ing my heart out, only to live for the infrequent moments of affection from my H. He has lived with much repressed anger and unforgiveness for my actions of the past and has chosen to renew his life. Understandable.<P>For awhile, in fact I even posted about this, I practically begged for a chance to show him what I have to give. I'll sign the papers, go through the motions, whatever, just to give him the peace he so desperately yearns for. I only asked him not to shut me out, to be open if possible to my love and any feelings for me that he might experience.<P>Well, he agreed. I was ecstatic. He even admitted it felt good to be loved. But, (you knew it was coming ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) ), it wound up feeling like pressure for him. He still saw the hurt in my eyes when he chose to be cruel. This bothered him, as he told me that he is tired of being cruel, that is not who he is. Why then? He feels as is I am ignoring the inevitable by loving him. I would give, he would withdraw.<BR>Makes sense again to me. <P>The prior agreement was for me to continue living with him while he finished school, which would be an enormous benefit to my (our)children. At first I was grateful.<BR>To work together as "partners" for the children. End result..he has a career to better support them and is not forced to rejoin the military. He has been an excellent provider for us throughout the 12 years. This would benefit every party involved.<P>So what happened? Well, I cont'd to show love only to live with the knowledge that he does have a gf and felt, well, there is no delicate way to put it...like a whore.<P>I eventually came to the conclusion that I could not cohabitate with him and not still want to be his wife. <BR>Live like this for 2 more years only to be left then?<BR>To allow myself to be wounded repeatedly for the "dim chance" for healing?<P>Sorry I am not that codependent. He needed space, and I wanted for us to heal. Oil and water.<P>I began to think about moving back home to Texas with the little ones. I discussed this with his mother, she also agreed that it may be the best thing to do. I came to this conclusion after my 8yo and 11yo told me about 3 wks ago if dad is still writing "love letters to his gf". Ouch!<BR>(we have been very civil around them, but back in Jan when I found out I confronted him and they must have heard)<P>They said they felt very uncomfortable talking to him and older D stated he is a different person when he walks throuhg the front door. I respected him and simply comforted them and encouraged them that we all make mistakes. I refused to elaborate. Thinking that this is a whole lot of unbridled emotion for them I thought it would be best for all of us to talk, to allow him to reconnect. He stammered, didn't know what to say. I recommended he just comfort and reassure them. ( We have chosen to not tell them for awhile, at least until our heads are level.)<BR>Well, when 8yo D said she wants to "beat this OW up" he defended the OW and said she is really sweet and nice. <BR>Does anyone see the funnel clouds forming?<BR>And yes, I am leaving your mom.<P>[censored].<P>No comforting statements of unconditional love. Just facts. He said to me in front of them that is another one of my manipulative ways to change his mind.<P>Next morning I decided I am leaving in the summer.<P>I tell him this in a very loving way. I cannot cont this way. Yes I love you, but I cannot keep living in limbo.<BR>I refuse to be your second choice. You have the profound ability to take me through peaks and valleys. I want to begin my own life now. It is too tough to feel this vulnerable. I am doing this to let go and acknowledsge your desire to be on your own. To find some peace.<P>Same principle's from Dr. Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough."<P>Bear with me guys...almost to the point. Well, after that he completely shocked by asking me to stay. For the kids. For him. I asked with what consideration for me? He replied that we cont as previously planned. I said Hell NO!!! You refuse to make any concession for me? No counseling, openness, a shot in the dark? No.<P>I withdrew, without hostility. Began planning. He bacame upset. Asked me several times to reconsider for 'him'.<BR>Then, he goes to see the recruiter this weekend. I suspect he remembers at the beginning me asking him not to do that. Closes so many doors for him and the kids. I viewed it as some sort of tactic. I told him I really dont care what he decides to do now. Seperate lives. Last Fri night in bed he expresses all sort of anger to me. "Inever allowed myself to hate you, I only grew to hate myself. You are a beautiful woman..I hate myself for letting you go. I dont know what to do. What shoud I do?" he asked. I replied do what you want out of your own free will. I refuse to influence you at a weak moment.<P>Last night he was talking about his visit to the recruiter and I listened. No expressions of uncertainty on my behalf. Do whatever you need to Rick. <P>Ok, so here's my question. Last night he said that this is way too much. Too stressful. Lets take one month and <BR>1. not pursue any plans, forget about Texas, forget about the military, and forget about my wanting a divorce.<BR>2. allow him to chance to see if he can forgive<BR>3. To see if there is ever a chance for us (!!!)<BR>4. If not to see if, without the stress and pressure to <BR>see if we can cont to procede through this Divorce without war.<P>Ok folks, what do you think? Is this a second shot? How do I behave? Show love? Would that pressure him? Give him room? Distance myself to allow him room to pursue if he so choses?<P>I dont want to blow this. It seems that the remorse came when he actually began to realize the full implications of his choice. He is overly stresses, and so am I. We have been internilizing all of it. He wants relief from it.<P>My apologies for being so verbose. I respect the opinions here on the board as we all share a common cause. Please indulge me.<P>Dara<P>
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come on guys...anyone there?<P>back to the top
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What would you want from him if he were to come back?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>come on guys...anyone there?<P>back to the top</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
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What would I want from him if he were to come back?<P>Seems to be a very simple quetion, doesn't it?<P>What are we all looking for here?<P>Reconciliation if possible, if not, at least the peace of mind to know that we tried.<P>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>Ok, so here's my question. Last night he said that this is way too much. Too stressful. Lets take one month and <BR>1. not pursue any plans, forget about Texas, forget about the military, and forget about my wanting a divorce.<BR>2. allow him to chance to see if he can forgive<BR>3. To see if there is ever a chance for us (!!!)<BR>4. If not to see if, without the stress and pressure to <BR>see if we can cont to procede through this Divorce without war.<P>Ok folks, what do you think? Is this a second shot? How do I behave? Show love? Would that pressure him? Give him room? Distance myself to allow him room to pursue if he so choses?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your husband's proposal is so vague and meaningless as to be worthless. Perhaps he is using the proposal as a means of creating an illusion of stability or control, or perhaps not. But the proposal contains no behavioral components.<P>Nothing is said about counselling. Nothing is said about contact with the OW. There is simply no <I>plan</I> here, and no criteria by which any kind of assessment can be made when the month is up.<P>If you and your husband want to spend a month re-assessing your relationship, then apply some structure to it.<BR>
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Agree with above comment. Your H just "got" you right back into the corner that he wants you to be.<P>He's gotta give more...to truly repent and seek help. Keep up the respect for yourself that you have going... It will get you through no matter what...plus you are doing it very lovingly.<P>I made the repeated mistake of getting sucked in emotionally, primarily due to kids and pressures of inlaws who think I have to bear the weight of all of this. Now it is too late. <P>Keep doing whatever you are doing, but let him pursue you!!
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> Your husband's proposal is so vague and meaningless as to be worthless. Perhaps he is using the proposal as a means of creating an illusion of stability or control, or perhaps not. But the proposal contains no behavioral components.<P>Nothing is said about counselling. Nothing is said about contact with the OW. There is simply no <I>plan</I> here, and no criteria by which any kind of assessment can be made when the month is up.<P><BR>I agree wholeheartedly Gnome.<BR>I dont want to be a sniveling baby and pressure him as to what his intentions are. (Can we say needy?)<BR>I told him this confuses me and there needs to be some objectives and boundaries. What is it that you watn to accomplish I asked?<BR>Just one month to think things through w/o all this stress.<BR>Remember as I said before Gnome, it seems that once I "let go" and began planning my life without him did he show any sense of reevalating his choices.<BR>I DO NOT want to push for reconciliation. This would lead to the very same problems in the future. If he wants me it needs to be on his own free will.<P>So do I have the right to jump the gun so to speak and ask him to bar contact with her and work on us?<P>I dont believe I do. I dont want to make any assumptions right now. This is why I am here asking for your opinions on his frame of mind. He is weary and confused.<P>"lets just take some time to really think things through before we pursue any course of action." <P>My question is, just what is it that he wants to think through? He has expressed to me that he does not hate me, but desperately seeks to heal himself and to forgive me.<P>If you and your husband want to spend a month re-assessing your relationship, then apply some structure to it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited March 20, 2001).]
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Sorry for the bold print. I screwed up the Quote mechanism thing.<P>This sense of independence and self-worth is wonderful. Feels good, and helps me to realize that my world hasn't ended because of him. I tread these waters VERY carefully, as I dont want everything I have worked for to be percieved as being superficial, only to be easily taken away to become desperate for him.<P>I did not reveal any enthusiasm to him, only asked him clarify what he wants out of it. "Time to think about things w/o planning and w/o all this stress."
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Learning as I go,<P>You mention "Love Must Be Tough" - I really learned a lot from that book. It has been a while since reading it, but isn't there some examples of your exact situation? I kind of remember Dr. Dobbson talking about a spouse who would try to stand up for herself(himself), only to be convinced to stay, without any changes being made. It is only another form of control.<P>To be honest, I can't say if that is what your husband is doing here. In my opinion though, you shouldn't let things "just go" for another month. Don't misunderstand, I am one who believes in saving a marriage at all costs, no matter how long it takes. I just don't think that staying in your current "status quo" is going to help either of you. If he wants you to stay and you are open to it, then you both need to "work" on your relationship. For starters ALL CONTACT with this other woman should be stopped - absolutely, totally, no exceptions. Tell him that if he is serious about trying, then his OW can wait at least for a month. Tell him if there is one slip-up, no matter how small - you are gone.<P>Your marriage is so important in the grand scheme of things, but that does not mean you should be treated like a doormat. I also don't believe in separation, but if he does not see any reason to change, even for the trial period you mention here, then maybe you need to move out...<P>It is a hard call to make. All I can do is pray that you gain the wisdom to make the right decision...<P>God Bless,<BR>MIke<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.
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Mike,<P>This is exactly why I posted. Things should not be "let go of" for a month. However, I am concerned about making any demands. What is it that he is working for here? If I knew it was for a shot at reconciliation I would not hesitate to request him to bar contact with OW. <P>However I do not know if this is what he is seeking and I am leary of assumming that it is, at the cost of losing all that i have gained by letting go of him.<P>I asked last night for him to clarify what he wants out of this. All he responded was too lessen the stress level, yet he DID start the whole idea of this with those four objectives as previously mentioned by me in my post.<P>Sorry for the convolouted sentences. My brain is convolouted right now as well.<P>Thank you for your reply.
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Part of what's puzzling is that your husband already <I>has</I> the month, and more. You weren't talking about leaving until summer, right?<P>So there's no reason for you not to continue with your plans, while leaving open the possibility for reconciliation if your husband actually decides that's what he wants. It doesn't sound to me like you were planning <I>war</I> in any case, and demonstrating love for your husband does not require you to be a doormat.<BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>Part of what's puzzling is that your husband already <I>has</I> the month, and more. You weren't talking about leaving until summer, right?<P>So there's no reason for you not to continue with your plans, while leaving open the possibility for reconciliation if your husband actually decides that's what he wants. It doesn't sound to me like you were planning <I>war</I> in any case, and demonstrating love for your husband does not require you to be a doormat.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes you are right. He stated that he just wanted us to "forget" that he mentioned divorce and all the implications it has caused (move away, enlist, etc.) for one month.<P>So, what do I do? I have practically ignored him since I have decided to leave. Do I see this as an oppurtunity to "work things out?"<P>Or, remain distant and let him figure out what he wants.<BR>That sounds like a power play on his behalf to me even though I know full well he is not a control freak or manipulative by any means.<BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>He stated that he just wanted us to "forget" that he mentioned divorce and all the implications it has caused (move away, enlist, etc.) for one month.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How does him living in a fantasy world for a month help either of you?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So, what do I do? I have practically ignored him since I have decided to leave. Do I see this as an oppurtunity to "work things out?"<P>Or, remain distant and let him figure out what he wants.<BR>That sounds like a power play on his behalf to me even though I know full well he is not a control freak or manipulative by any means.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why don't you ask him what he prefers? Does he want you to make suggestions on how to improve your relationship? Or does he want to come up with the suggestions himself? Let him know that you are flexible and <I>willing</I> to negotiate and to work on your relationship, but that until he lets you know what he wants from you, you can't tell him whether you can give it.<BR>
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LAIG,<P>Just read this thread and I agree with the other posters here. You need a plan, more specifically you and your H need a plan. Let me offer you some things I would want if I were your H.<P>I would want to know what you plan to do about your past affairs.<P>I would want to know what you would do to make the marriage work.<P>I would want to know how you plan to overcome the indifference you displayed in the past and you appear to be displaying now.<P>I would want to know how it is that you want me to love you, but you haven't offered any clues how I can make sure your behavior of the past won't repeat.<P>In short I would like to know what you are going to do to meet me half way.<P>From your perspective, you will need to know:<P>That he will give up OW to try and see what is there, but here is the tricky part: He is unwilling to take risks on your behavior, so you need to make some agreement about this issue, so he doesn't feel like the only on at risk here.<P>That he will try and forgive you for the things in the past.<P>That he will do his best to be a good H.<P>That he will do his best to love you again.<P>Finally, I do think it is necessary that you recommend that you both get into counseling. With your busy schedules I would think that the Harley's would suit you well.<P>Do you see where I am going here, LAIG? You need to bring something to the table other than I won't leave if you completly do everything I want. I don't think you will get much out of him with this approach,because it will remind him of the years you treated him with indifference.<P>This is going to be really tough LAIG, because it is clear he is in the fog. He wants his family, but he wants the love that the OW gives him. He wants the respect she gives him. I suspect if you sat down and thought about it there are many things, besides sex, that she does for him that you have not in the past.<P>So I say, be civil, be honest, and negotiate this one month thing, but do so with the idea that you have a few things to prove to him as well as he to you.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL
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Well well JL. You did it again. Saw practically right through me.<P>I dont want to coerce or strong arm him. I have alot I would like to give. I want to continue to give (plan A) but I do have feelings! Rejection and cruelty is something he doles out but he learned those tactics well from me.<P>No I dont want him to just give up all his needs for me to stay here. But if I were to I do have alot to offer, I want to offer. I CANNOT go on like this. The only connection we have had really is phsical. I want a new life, with or without him. A better one.<P>If I knew he was ready to be "open" for a month, then w/o hesitation I can seize the oppurtunity to love him w/o fail and hopefully surface some old wounds to enable him to heal.<P>Yes this is a risk for him. It was his idea. I sincerely desire his happiness. I want to give him what he has sought out in OW and never found in me.<P>As Gnome has said, I need to know what he wants from me, before I can be willing to give it.<P>I suppose that statement sums up this whole post.<BR>Whatever he wants I am willing to give. He wants freedom, I can move. I wants me or at least a shot at "seeing if this will ever work between us", I will give my heart to him and then some. Overflowing.<P>I am so afraid of approaching this topic with him. Many times after tenderness he always reminds me that I "read into things way too much." Little ole emotional me, after an hour of kissing and him saying I do love you...I always find it hard to comprehend how he could then be cruel.<BR>Women equate physical closeness to intimacy...intimacy to care or love.<P>I dont want to read into him and blow it.<BR>
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LAIG,<P>Then the answer is obvious. You two need to talk. I suspect his cruelness, is pay back. I suspect he still does love you or his pain would not lead to cruelity. <P>BUT I KNOW, you need to talk with him and make him the offer you just outlined. You may be reading too much into things, so talk with him. He may not realize that you have changed your outlook about him. That deep down inside you aren't indifferent. You do realize you were but you aren't now.<P>I suspect he sees your lips moving but he is not hearing you, old habit. He needs to hear you and you need to hear him. It would seem that you have underestimated the damage done before. It appears to be pretty extensive, hence the cruelity, or perhaps as you said it is learned from you.<P>I don't know that. ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) So I recommend talk and then talk some more, and then... ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) talk some more.<P>You two have a lot to air out,before he will take a risk. Oddly, you don't seem to be very anxious to take a risk with him either. That ole' indifference arising again? I hope not.<P>So LAIG, talk, negotiate, talk somemore and see if you two can come to a win-win thing, that minimizes risks on both sides, and gives you both the healing that you need.<P>God Bless,<P>JL
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Learning As I Go,<P>What about counseling? Or mediation? A parish priest? Anyone... I think it would be a good idea because we don't really know all the facts here, so we can only go on what you are saying. I know that when I post about my wife, even though I try to be as fair to her as possible, I am sure the posts sometimes become biased a little towards me - it is only human nature. Now I am not saying you are not telling us everything or that you may be embellishing (why would you?). But there may be things that you are not even aware of that may be affecting your situation.<P>But more importantly, counseling would give your husband someone else to answer to.... Especially if he is controlling. Being married for so long, someone who tends to try and control other people, has probably become pretty good at it with their spouses. They have learned exactly what to say and what to do to get their way. When you inject a counselor into this type of situation, the controlling personality is now forced to answer for their actions - the counselor is often able to see the control aspect of the situation and help bring the marriage back to an equal playground....<P>Sure your husband may object to it - especially if he fears being forced to atone for his actions. I think if you are able to approach the counseling issue in a positive light, you may have a shot at getting your husband there. But EVEN if he DOESN'T go, I really think it would be a good idea for you to visit someone - even if it is for only one session. True the good ones cost money - but isn't a couple hundred dollars now worth a lifetime marriage?<P>Good Luck and God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.
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LAIG,<P>I'll be brief. I'd say get all these things you're trying to do with the marital mess ... and take them in front of a pro. Or at least do an intensive weekend workshop like Pairs or Retrouvaille.
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LAIG,<P>I understand your desire to try to work things out whenever there is the tinest glimpse of hope. I did the same thing with my XH. <P>However, agreeing to his terms...does that mean giving up what you believe in and what you NEED from this relationship with him. Do what is right for you and it will be what is right for the relationship and for the children.<P>I gave in to all of my XH's concessions just to have him continually cheat on me. (7 affairs) I was not happy therefore, my child was not happy. Don't lose yourself in all of this because that is exactly what I did. Not only did I have to adjust to being a single parent when I got divorced but I also had to learn who I was and what made me happy. Finding myself was much harder than learning how to become a single parent.<P>You do have a right to state what you NEED from this relationship. Don't give those rights away.<P>
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