I've not posted before so here it goes. I've been married for 4 years to my best friend of 15yrs. Through counselling and soul searching I've found myself out of love for my husband. I love him but I'm not in love with him and haven't been for the last two years. Nor am I physically attracted to him. I don't think I ever was. I've been so lonely and sad in our marriage that is has pushed me in a different direction to find myself again.<P>We are in our early forties and have no kids or the desire for family. I've been emotionally divorced from him for almost two years now. We have a good life and share the same ideas but something inside is missing. I personally think we never made the transition from best friends to 'husband & wife'. We have not been intimate nor have ever shared intimacy. I'm not interested in trying anymore. I've decided to leave him and find myself again. I'm not blaming him for the way I feel it's just I've tried books, counselling etc. and my feelings have not changed - I want out. Maybe I just fell out of love. Is it worth rebuilding? I don't want to. <P>The feelings I'm dealing with are of saddness and guilt. My husband and I never fight. We have great respect for each other. I hate seeing him so hurt and therefore find it hard to make the actual move to 'leaving'. I feel so bad for him. Sometimes I think if I stay he'll be okay but what about me? I've read Dr. Phil's books (both of them, Life Strategies and Relationship Rescue). The books just opened my eyes more and made me realize that maybe this isn't the true realationship for me? I just don't know how to fully let go of him. I need and want to go but his saddness holds me back. The longer I stay, the more we don't move forward or doing anything. Anyone going through something similar?<BR>Help>>>>>>

I understand how you feel. My husband and I have known each other for 13 years and have been married for 5. He is my best friend in the world and someone I cannot imagine being without. I love him but have never been "in love" with him in the traditional romantic sense. We have no children but have shared wonderful times together. Yet I have always felt that something was missing in our relationship and unfortunately, have looked for it elsewhere.<P>I left my husband almost a year ago to be with someone else, but I still talk to and see him frequently. I am filled with guilt and sadness at the thought of getting a divorce (neither of us has filed) because my husband is a wonderful person and I do have tremendous feelings of love for him. It feels wrong to divorce someone you love and do share a great relationship with, even if the romantic/sex element is not really a part of it. It also feels wrong to always be longing for that missing element. Everyone tells me I have to "decide what I want" but that is very little help in my situation, where I do love my husband but am also fundamentally dissatisfied with him. I posted to this site for the first time last week asking whether I should reconcile with my husband (he is willing) or stick with the new relationship (very fulfilling except for my guilt and the strain of my feelings for my husband). <P>II am sorry I do not have any a nswers for you but hope that knowing others are in the same situation helps. <P>

Thanks for your reply. You sound just like me. I also have a chance at a new relationship which is exciting and new. I've actually know this new person for awhile as a friend and we could start a relationship. He is everything my husband is not in the intimate department. I just want to be sure of letting my marriage go before I start something new. I'm in limbo and my husband needs to know. I've given myself the next couple of weeks to make a decision because I don't think we can take anymore stress! <P>It is hard to divorce someone you still love. My husband is a great person and we've had some exciting times. I sometimes feel like I'm being selfish and wanting too much? I know I have the right to be happy and this marriage is not cutting it for me. I'll keep you posted on how it's going. Thanks again.

Out of curiosity, why are you (either of) you posting on this site, a site which is dedicated to the preservation and restoration of marriages? outoflove, you ended your post with the word "Help", but I don't understand what kind of help you are looking for.<P>A peculiar characteristic of both of your posts is that you don't say anything about how your husbands feel, almost as if they don't exist in your minds as real persons. It would be unfair of me to <I>conclude</I> anything from that, but it does make me wonder...<P>In our culture today, it seems taken for granted that actions result from attitudes which result from feelings. I don't deny that, but I <I>also</I> believe strongly that feelings result from attitudes which are affected by actions.<P>I recommend taking a look at Susan Page's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440507820/qid%3D985126984/sr%3D1-4/ref%3Dsc%5Fb%5F5/002-9618493-4324828" TARGET=_blank>The 8 Essential Traits of Couples Who Thrive</A>.<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>So what's the glory in living?<BR>Doesn't anybody ever stay together any more?<BR>And if love doesn't last forever, tell me<BR>What's forever for?</I> - Rafe Van Hoy

Outoflove,<P>I was reading your original post and thinking how to respond, and I was going to ask if you already have someone else lined up... I guess in my slowness to respond you followed up and told me what I already suspected:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by outoflove:<BR><B>I also have a chance at a new relationship which is exciting and new. I've actually know this new person for awhile as a friend and we could start a relationship. He is everything my husband is not in the intimate department.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yippee for you!! How happy you must be! I agree, go for it, you deserve it! Uh, BTW, how do you know that this new person is "everything your H is not in the intimate department"? You haven't by chance "tested the waters" already, have you?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It is hard to divorce someone you still love. My husband is a great person and we've had some exciting times.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, it must really suck, huh? But the other guy is so much more fun, isn't he? And he <B>will</B> make you happy, won't he? And that's all that counts, right?<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I sometimes feel like I'm being selfish and wanting too much? I know I have the right to be happy and this marriage is not cutting it for me. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yup, you're right again. You come first, screw the commitments and what not! Selfish? You? Nah...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>I'll keep you posted on how it's going. Thanks again.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Uh, lady, this is a marriage<B>builders</B> board, I don't know that many here are interested in the progress of your affair... They do have OW boards, you know, you guys can all compare notes there...<P>The problem is not that you're "outoflove", the problem is that you're "inlove", but in-love with an OM, and it's making your H pale in comparison... <P>Yuck!<P>AGG<BR><p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited March 20, 2001).]

I appreciate your opinion but unfortunately this is not the site that is dedicated to "preservation & restoration" of marriages...The Forum is Divorcing/Divorced. It's the big "D" word. <P>My husband is a great person and has lots of feelings but unfortunately they are not full of love nor do his feelings offer me any signs of hope. I've read it somewhere that marriage doesn't fail, it's people who fail. That is true in my case. I have failed. Usually failure is due to needs not being fulfilled. I do have needs that can't be denied. You just can't fake love. The heart doesn't lie. And everyone needs intimacy. At least I recognize what I need. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by outoflove:<BR><B> unfortunately this is not the site that is dedicated to "preservation & restoration" of marriages...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, it <B>is</B>. Marriage<B>builders</B>. Get it?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The Forum is Divorcing/Divorced. It's the big "D" word. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, yeah, but the unsaid part is <B>coping</B> with Divorce, not <B>promoting</B> it as a solution whenever a better catch comes along...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I do have needs that can't be denied. You just can't fake love. The heart doesn't lie. And everyone needs intimacy. At least I recognize what I need. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did you love your H when you married him? Did he provide you what you needed then? Why not give him the chance to redeem himself before dumping him. Oh wait, I know: "you both have changed and grown apart", right? Funny, this always happens when someone new comes along...<P>So, have you been intimate with the OM yet?<P>AGG

outoflove,<P>First let me say that I will try my hardest not to become attacking in this post. Why? Because I am your husband, or rather I am/was in your husband's shoes. While younger than you both (30yrs old), my wife came to me last year with your exact words. Now we are almost divorced. I hate to say it, I don't mean to make you feel any worse, but you are on a course that will no doubt rip out your husband's heart. No matter how you try to rationalize it, you will. It has been a year for me, and even now as I write this post, I feel absolutely sick to my stomach. You see my wife never stopped to truly tell me how she was feeling - she told me I "should have known". That is a crock - Men are not mindreaders.<P>Gnomedeplume raises a good point - love is not about just making yourself happy, I believe it is the exact opposite - its about making your spouse happy (or rather trying to). I have done a lot (a lot) of reading about this feeling of being "in love" and I have written quite a few posts on this board about it as well. First you need to realize that there is no "fairy-tale" marriage. Period. So often we look to other people's marriages as examples, but guess what? I have friends who looked at my marriage as the absolute PERFECT marriage - now look at us.... You can't judge your marriage by someone else's marriage because you DON'T KNOW what goes on behind closed doors.<P>As far as "looking elsewhere" for being "in love", well of course you are not going to have to look too far. I am not even going to get into the religious aspects of how Satan is so quick and sure to "tempt" us humans. I only need to go as far as common sense: Your marriage is in trouble... sure you are best friends, but admit it, you don't just fall out of love with someone - something happened, something changed in your relationship. You (and your spouse) somewhere along the lines stopped working on your marriage. Things that he may do, while at one time you found endearing, now drive you crazy. Or, it is just that life has left your marriage and relationship boring - you know each other too well, you don't work on keeping the spark alive. Now here comes "Mr. New" - He is exciting, he is new, he is good-looking, he pays you attention that you are missing, he seems so smart (even though at one time you thought your husband was the smartest man on the planet). Now comes the rationalization "well if I am supposed to be 'in-love' with my husband, why do I have feelings for this new man? I must not have loved him, or I don't love him anymore". Zip, bang, boom - you are in an affair. Sure it starts as friendship, so innocent. But don't kid yourselves, just because you haven't kissed or slept with each other yet does not mean you are not cheating on your spouse.<P>Now am I saying that your husband does not have any blame in this? NOOOOO WAAAAYYYY. If you are feeling like you do, then there IS SOMETHING WRONG with your relationship. Is he aware of how you feel? I mean really aware???<P>As far as I see it, you have a couple options (remember these are just my opinions): You can do as my wife did - leave, move away, try to forget the 9 years we have known each other. Think of every little reason "why" what she is doing is right. Or you can re-commit yourselves to your marriage - I mean 100% commitment, there is no way I want a divorce I'll do whatever it takes to make this work. I made a promise, a vow to myself, to my husband, and to God that I will forsake all others in sickness and in health FOR BETTER AND FOR WORSE til death do us part..... (remember those words).<P>There are spouses here that while I personally don't believe in divorce for myself, I can somewhat understand why they want to leave. Whether it be because of anger, physical violence, infidelity, abuse, etc... But I apologize to you in that I can not understand this whole "well my feelings just changed and there is NO WAY they will ever change back". Well how can they change for the bad, but there is no way they can change back to being "in love".<P>Listen you are probably a great person. I don't mean to sound so hostile. I just want to make you aware of the seriousness of your decisions. My wife and I were best friends and she even used that as an excuse why divorcing is the right thing to do - she said that maybe we were just meant to be "best friends". I asked her if she was nuts - how could you NOT be married to your best friend?????????<P>Now here I am. Some best friend - she hurt me more than anyone has in this entire world. While I can forgive her and have, I am so far the exception. Many men would have turned on her in a second. And I guess I will end with this thought - don't ever think that you will be able to get through a divorce and still be best friends with your husband, especially if this comes as a surprise to him. And don't think it gets any easier after you are gone, sometimes the grass is not greener, it was only the green glasses you were looking through....<P>I pray you think long and hard about your marriages and decisions. May God grant you the wisdom to think this thing through.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Thanks to all of you who know so much more than me. It sounds like you were all the ones being "left". I guess if you were in my shoes (not that you want to be) it would be a different post. Well we the "leavers" have feelings too. <P>I guess I know why I don't get involved in these forums. There has been no constructive advice but lots of criticism. I posted to people in 'similar situation'. Why did you all respond when you can't relate to me anyhow?? <P>I don't promote divorce nor did I ever think I would find myself in this place either. I'm sorry you are all having such a hard time by the tone in your posts. I think you should all read "Conversations with God" and you know what...you're not obligated to anyone or to any marriage!! <P>I'm gone from this forum not because of anything that was posted,,,because it's just not civilized.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>I am your husband, or rather I am/was in your husband's shoes. While younger than you both (30yrs old), my wife came to me last year with your exact words. Now we are almost divorced. I hate to say it, I don't mean to make you feel any worse, but you are on a course that will no doubt rip out your husband's heart.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I should admit that I am being hard on outoflove for the same exact reason that Mike stated above...<P>I too was the recipient of the news that our marriage was "over", she needs to be "selfish", and she has "grown". Of course by then she's been screwing, I mean "being intimate" with, a coworker for several months. It hurt me worse than anything I could have ever imagined, no matter how "gently" she tried to break the news to me (oh, and BTW, please be honest and admit to him about the OM! The only thing worse than being betrayed is having to spy on your spouse to find out that you are in fact being betrayed).<P>Let me tell you this, outoflove. A new boyfriend will not save you from yourself. You may think he will make you happy, but he won't. Only you can make yourself happy. A new boyfriend is a crutch, and nothing more.<P>My W has moved out two weeks ago, and she tells me she is miserable and cries every night. She says she sees how great a guy I was, and how much more respect she has for me now that she is on her own. So much for the joy of the "new relationship". Make sure you don't follow your rosy path to the same destination...<P>Good luck,<P>AGG

I have to agree with GDP and Mike. You are making a mistake that will cost you so much in the long run. <P>Love is more than a feeling, it is a commitment.<P>I can tell from your posts that you are not going to listen to what any of us tell you about love and commitment. Unfortuntately, it appears that you are going to learn that over time through the pain and suffering both you and your husband are about to endure.

Out of Love,<P>The "selfishness" question plagues me, too. Opinions differ on this one. Some people (including my mother) feel that I am very lucky to have a marriage I describe as 85% happy/satisfying. Others tell me they would never stay with a spouse who was more of a roomate than a lovemate. In response to some of the other posts, I am guessing that your husband, like mine, loves you and is content with your marriage, whatever its shortcomings. My husband is definitely much less of a perfectionist in general than I am, so I don't believe his contentedness is based on a stronger marital committment. Am I wrong for wanting more? I don't know, but I have spent almost a year of very hard emotional time trying to figure it out. I am currently reading the book "A Course in Miracles" which is<BR>helpful on the spiritual side. <P>Mindy Sue

We're not civilized because we believe in marriage or the preservation of it??? Then I am proud to be a barbarrian!!<P>If you would have read what was responded you wouldn't have been offended...You were given advice on looking deep and not acting self-centeredly(is that a word)<P>Good luck finding happiness in you future behind your rose colored glasses...<P>If you want advice on what you can do then stay...Try the EN board and read the Basic Concepts...<P>Bill

OKAY BREATHE MIKE....<P>Outoflove, you are right - we did seem to jump down on you. But I can not really say I am sorry to you. I will apologize for the tone, but not the content. If you decide to leave, then that is fine. But I do believe that if you stay around you may learn somethings here. Not everyone thinks like I do or like those who have posted. Yes there are many spouses who have been left, but there are also a lot of spouses who have chosen to leave that post here. And we do learn a lot from each other.<P>By your leaving it appears to me that you are even more similar to my wife than I first thought - you see she turned on everyone whom she believed would disagree with her decision, like a little girl. I believe, as do many of HER friends that she was afraid of what might happen if she stayed - afraid that she may be wrong and selfish to want to leave. I am very sorry if this angers you or hurts you in anyway, but why are you so inclined not to listen to opinions contrary to yours?<P>Finally you mention the book "Conversations With God". I have read that book. I believe the underlying premise was well thought out (that you can talk to God like a regular friend), but some of his conclusions I believe were way off the mark. You know my wife converted to Catholicism about 2 years ago, by her own accord. She really liked the church and was fascinated with its beliefs... Then she decided she was not "in love" with me anymore and she left the church quicker than you can blink - why? Because Catholics do not believe in divorce for any reason. A little harsh? A little. I disagree slightly in that for something like physical abuse, I think a divorce could be warranted. But she left the church JUST because she did not want to face that she might be wrong.<P>I challenge you to stay and post here. I promise that I will not attack - If I do, then I will apologize. But I will also not hold back any "punches" - I speak right from my heart. Maybe I can learn some more about my wife from your posts as well - And believe me, I would like nothing more.<P>Stick around for a while....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Out of love,<P>I thought you were trying to figure out what direction to take, as I am. If that is the case, all the responses received (whether strongly opinionated or not) are valuable for the different perspectives they provide. I hope you continue to post here. I do not feel either of us are in the "wrong place".<P>Mindy Sue

Mindy Sue and OutofLove,<P>I was on both sides of infidelity. It sucks no matter which side you're on. I KNOW!<P>I have been where you are, so please take what I say with the kindness, sincerety, and experience I am offering...<P>If you don't want to work on your marriages, then get a divorce. I'm not being funny. AND, if there's <B>EVEN A CHANCE</B> OF SAVING YOUR MARRIAGES, <B>THEN TRY</B>!!!!<P>You must grieve for the end of your marriage before you can give yourself fully to someone else. You will regret it if you don't go through this process.<P>Put another way, <B>DON'T GET INVOLVED WITH ANOTHER MAN UNTIL YOU GET THAT DIVORCE</B>. <P>My other questions to both of you: <P>Do your H's know of the affairs you are having (or thinking of having, even if they are "emotional" attachements only)??<P>If not, you must tell them and give them the chance to be the husband's they were meant to be.<P>If, after that, you feel the love is gone, then get a divorce and move on.<P>Not until then though...<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 20, 2001).]

Mindy Sue,<P>I agree with your mother that 85% happy is not bad...why? Because you have such a great opportunity to launch your marriage in to orbit!!! To make it 150% happy!<P>A little personal note here: My wife thought like you do - like I was happy/content with our marriage. She never spoke to me about it. You know what? I knew we had problems, but I did not know what I could do about them! I wanted our marriage to be great, but I did not know where to go or how to get there. Finally after much prodding, my wife got me to counseling. THE BEST THING I HAVE EVER DONE IN MY LIFE! Only it was a little too late. She let go of so much of her love for me, that by the time we went to counseling she had already "left" the relationship. For me though it was a new beginning - I learned what I was doing wrong and was so eager to change. And I did (and still do today). Right before my wife left she even told me that "now you are the husband that I always wanted" - amazingly she left anyway...<P>I guess what I am saying is give your husband the benefit of the doubt. Understand that men are scared of the unkown, especially with relationships. We are bred to be strong and all-knowing, so when it is suggested that we may need to see a professional for help, our initial reaction is to resist with all our might. But once there, you may see a new husband emerge. I can't promise you this, but I can tell you it happened for me. Again it was only too late. Don't let it be for you - Your husband may just surprise you - and what a gift from God that would be...<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hi Out of Love and Mindy Sue,<P> Before you make such life altering decisions please get a copy of "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman....it's an excellent book based on years and years of his counseling.<P>The chances of your new relationships lasting is very, very low.....You are both the classic romantics that are following their feelings....<P>If you follow the MB principles you can be "in love " with your H's again.....it's a shame to throw away good men the way you are both about to.....I just hope you know what you are in for........LU

Thanks to all who gave miss high & mighty a piece of your minds. As soon as that post was listed I wanted to reply but as a relatively new user I wasn't sure how my reply would have been taken. We have all been or are going through hell and it is conforting to visit with people that have been through or are going through it.<P>Love, Bill

outoflove:<P>I'm a betrayed spouse, married 14 years in June. We have a 12 year old son. 2 years ago in July my H gave me the "love you but not in love with you; care for you" speech. Yep, there was/is someone else. An ongoing EA for several years. <P>We tried 1 year of counseling without him giving her up. So of course it did no good. You can't rekindle passion when one of the counseling pair is indulging in their romantic fantasy. I could never live up to his little paragon of bottomless giving. I'm a giver too, but in past years have learned to say "no" unless I really mean "yes" and unless I believe the asker is really in need and not just taking advantage of me.<P>Now, my 2 cents. <P>Given that you have no children together, your path is clearer. Divorce, leaving, they are viable options. I can't be hostile to you even though I am the betrayed spouse.<P>What your husband deserves is the truth. It is crueler to keep him in limbo. You deserve the truth as well. Maybe his feelings are like yours, maybe his passion is absent. <P>If you haven't had this conversation, how do you know what he feels? And if you haven't had this conversation, how do you know that your marriage wouldn't benefit from some work? Have you read the Harley stuff, about 15 hours a week one-on-one with the spouse? The recreational activities spent together? <P>Those types of things kindle passion. <P>Without children as distractions, without the need to find sitters to make it possible to be alone and work on things, it would be easier. <P>What is the biggest obstacle to your talking about your feelings with your H? Is it that you don't want to see the hurt on his face? Is it anticipation of the guilt you don't want to live with?<P>I want to encourage you not to give up yet. There has to be something that will work, something you haven't tried yet. Can you set a time to really invest a lot of energy into rebuilding your love, becoming intimate? And by the way, how can you feel intimate if you don't share your doubts and fears with your husband? <P>As for the other posters, the blessing of this board is that you can download things and read the postings later, and think them over, and decide if there are valid points that you haven't thought of. You have the privacy to rethink other points of view. Maybe there is a grain of wisdom to glean out of each of the posts, even the hostile ones.<BR> <BR>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited March 21, 2001).]