I am the BS, and also the one filing for divorce. I have tried my hardest at Plan A... but basically got nowhere. I have not only had to deal with a not very discreet affair and pregnancy and OC between H and an also married, also separated, also parent of 2 coworker.... but my H's "changed personality"...I guess a MLC, identity crisis or life crisis or whatever.<P>My dilemma now, is that although I feel as if I have detached and made peace with the issue of the affair and child... I have had difficulty with simply the behavior displayed towards me and the kids as human beings. Not really very different than what many others here have dealt with.<P>In addition...my kids are pretty much the only ones who still have no idea what has really happened. His family knows, and although they don't agree with what he is doing basically have felt backed into a corner too...and yes, blood is thicker than water. And I know that and accept it also.<P>H and OW are NOT living together, but work together and H will not give it up... He still tells people that he doesn't know what he is going to do... (as in marry her, live with her whatever....not that anyone really believes that anymore).... but he still seems to want his cake etc... as in having us here for whatever reason he wants that...I do not know..., but to still live his real or fantasy life....with OW and work taking priortity.<P>My big problem is his inablility to talk to me at all. I tried my hardest for about a year to be his friend...to make it safe....etc. etc.. Even doing that, he tells people I won't talk to him. I have spoken to him, written letters etc. I'm not sure if it's guilt.... or whatever anger he has towards me or himself that is projected...but I have to make decisions.<P>I need to sell the house...split the assets...make decisions about moving closer to home...which is NOT a popular decision with his family, because they think that I need to stay (cross to bear) no matter what he does...for the kids sake.<P>I'm going to have to be unpopular, because I do need to move closer to family and to a place where I can get a good job and put the kids in good schools...and it is unfortunate that it is 8 hours away... but too me at this time is seems like the lesser of two evils.<P>I want to try to make it the best situation. I am willing to do whatever it takes to make visitation work. Drive to meet him...etc. etc. My H has the financial means to fly.. He could even get a small apt... near us for his "home" when he sees the kids. I have given him access to this house..he even stays here with the kids if I am away. I have bent over backwards to make him feel safe...and yet he will NOT deal with ANY of the issues....<P>I am NOT going to bad mouth he or OW or the baby. All I want is peace and a chance to move forward in our lives.<P>I was wondering if anyone has used a mediator for such issues. Does a mediator actually help with the communication. Or at least get it down on paper....what the two parents agree on..so it can't be blamed solely on one parent..... (as in..."she is taking my kids away from me, therefore, It is her fault that I don't know my kids")<P>I am just at my wit's end with this man. I have gotton my life together...taken good care of my kids... I have set him completely free........ I don't know what else to do.<P>But I have to talk to him. The last time I tried to move ahead...which was last June...he said he would go to marriage counseling. (He was still denying the affair at this time) We went.... and he got into the room, after a whole car trip of talking to me...and folded his arms and said to the counselor..."I can't talk to her" "I have animosity towards her" "everything she says bugs me".<P>Anyway....just wondering if anyone else has this dilemma.

Yes, an inability to talk has been my dilemma. I too plan A’ed, for almost two years. My husband did all sorts of fun things with us, all while having his affair. He apparently thought he was entitled to be part of our family and that I should treat him as such. BUT, he would never and still will not talk to me about any “unsafe” subjects – the divorce, the problems of the marriage, his affair, his role in the marital problem (apparently, he doesn’t think he had one), marriage counseling, or problems with the kids. Although I have apologized for my mistakes in the marriage many times, and written him lovingly many times, he won’t apologize himself (he’s done nothing wrong) or forgive me. This has been our stalemate.<P>For the first few months of the separation, I tried many times to get him to talk. He wouldn’t. Then I didn’t try at all. He still didn’t. I would go six months without mentioning any of these things, just making him nice dinners, buying him gifts, inviting him to fun places (fairs, waterparks, Disneyland), making holiday dinners for him and his family, an incredible Plan A. He too stayed in the house while I traveled. He felt totally safe and comfortable, neither divorcing nor reconciling, all the while keeping the affair active but never talked about. TWO YEARS Tootrusting.<P>When I let go around August, I really let go. I too am divorcing him. I feel nothing but disgust for him. Not only do we not talk about issues, I don’t want his input. The few little glimpses inside have shown me that he still blames me for everything and is holding onto huge anger/resentment. This is totally beyond my control and I now invest zero effort to fix it. His viewpoint is not one I value or respect.<P>My strong opinion is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to constructively negotiate with someone of this mindset. When you’re dealing with someone that’s done something this bad, yet takes zero responsibility for it, you know that no introspection is going on whatsoever. It’s a black and white view of the world, you are viewed as “evil” and the problem, regardless of what you actually do. I wouldn’t bother with mediation under this scenario because I don’t think it can work. I think you need to determine the best course of action for you and the children, and then develop a sound strategy for implementing it. You will be blamed for the actions you take regardless of the safeguards you put in surrounding the process. You will continue to be blamed for everything as long as your husband views everything in his life as having an external cause, instead of seeing his own role in the process and trying to take control of it.<P>Tootrusting, there’s one mistake I keep making over and over. I keep expecting my husband to, at some point, act like a human being. I expected him to be reasonable in the divorce process, I expect him to eventually apologize and show remorse, I expect him to see the impact this has on me and the children. It’s the “if only” game. “If only I could find a better way to communicate, if only I could get him to work with me on decisions, if only he could see what’s happening to our son”, yada, yada, yada. Our natural inclination is to continue working the problems as-if the problems could be solved by us. THEY CAN’T. Our husbands left and the burden of responsibilty to maintain the relationships with those left behind is on them. There’s nothing we can do about it except try to make the best balanced decisions we can, with the help of trusted friends, family, and counselors. We can’t expect anything from our husbands at this point. Their degree of participation is up to them. Your husband needs to bring himself to the table to initiate discussions with you. You can’t force him to talk. I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon. I’ve been waiting almost three years now.<BR>

Wow, thanks Distressed for the input. I have been feeling pretty much at peace with my decision to leave, with the exception of knowing that it an unpopular decision with his mom and at least 2 siblings. <P>I've come to realize that they too are having a hard time accepting that he has a "problem",,,,and they are a part of the problem. They always get him off the hook. He kind of has an adult temper tantrum...and bully's them into accepting what he wants.<P>Until he got "caught"..(she became pregnant and he had to finally fess up about the affair) he was mean and pretty much dismissed me and the kids...said he was only "pretending with me and the kids".. Of course that doesn't really look like "the good guy"...so he had to fit the kids into his schedule and tell his mom he "loved the kids"... so he won't look like such a bad guy.<P>They believe him when he says he feels bad. I don't any more. My MIL will even get him off the hook by saying that he acts so distant and cold to me and the kids because he feels guilty or doesn't want the kids and I to think he is happy. As if that makes his behavior OK. I am finally at the point that I believe it is not OK, nor is it in the kids best interest to be around it all the time.<P>His mom thinks I should stay no matter what... but neither he nor his family is thinking of me or the kids...only him I'm afraid.<P>And as far as the marraige...I still haven't a clue... He pretended pretty well..we were very intimate until he went on a 10 day business trip with OP...and then all of a sudden he didn't even remember being intimate with me.<P>He has only stated a few things like I slept too late one saturday and I liked some treee in our yard that he didn't.<P>When THAT didn't fly...he began the "I am unhappy with my life...I have too much..I've changed...the OP and I have a coworking antimaterialsim bond"...<P>Again..as if wearing different cloths or being different takes all of your responsibility away suddenly.<P>In hindsight...I wish I had moved when I said I was going too a year ago. But...got sucked into thinking he would do the right thing. He told me his life was complicated and he was unhappy. So I foolishly believed him. Like you, I don't any more. Like you, I've apologized to no avail. <P>You are right. I will always be the bad guy. He always has to have one. And you know...I am even OK with that. I'm just ready for some peace.<P>As far as the mediator...I was simply thinking at least a third party would make sure he knew what was being done regarding my move and his ability to visit. Because I will let him visit them or take them as much as he wants. I just don't think he really wants to...but will use me as an excuse again....for not having a relationship with them. At least if I have it down via a third party...some day I can show my kids that I wasn't stopping him.<P>I still find it difficult to think that my H could treat me and the kids so poorly, not even as wife and his children, but as human beings. As bad as he has treated us...publically and privately....I could never treat him this way... and I won't. <P>I guess it comes down to at least knowing my conscience is clear. I can look at myself in the mirror and know I gave it the best shot I had. <P>Thanks for your reply.

Tootrusting,<BR>I am presently educating myself to become a mediator....because I fully realize its value, and because I know that it could never have worked in my situation!!!<P>I am the bad and evilwicked witch....by trying to parent my egocentric and selfabsorbent teens while thier father (the WS) played the victim. Also refused to iniate contact at all with me from July 1999. Expected me to enable his parenting/relationships with our children etc...which I would no longer do once he was out of the house. So a very different situation,but similar behaviour somewhat from the WS.<P>He has battled for the kids, manipulated,lied to them and done nothing for them but be uncle dad....no boundaries etc, which 3 older ones love!!!!!<P>I was told to go to mediation...and the mediator will tell me how it has to be i.e. it has to be his way!<BR>I replied that I would be willing to go this route but would not facilitate this,(as I always have taken care of everything,giving stbx freedom to rise in his career!)and gave his lawyer a name....and nothing happened.So he can talk the talk ....as always,but the walk has never been done!!!!!<P>Mediators are neutral and it is a voluntary process. Be careful not to get into this though and get an agreement that you think you can live with,which he agrees to in mediation, and then has no intention of carrying this through....more pie in the sky stuff and trying to look good to the mediator.<P>On reflection....you have evrything to gain and nothing to lose by going this route. You can leave if there is no agreement or ideas which make no sense to you are suggested.<P>Mediation is a facilitated discussion which both conflicting parties control the results of. All mediators should be neutral and Make sure you have a mediator who is interests based and is able to get to these over positions.<P>Make sure that you research the mediator you use and do not settle for one whose work you are unaware of.<P>Good luck<P><p>[This message has been edited by willbok99 (edited March 21, 2001).]

This is very interesting. I too believe my husband's family is a large part of the problem. They also accept his explanations and easily let him off the hook. I'll go a step further and suggest that my husband's behavior was learned from them! No wonder they can't deal with it.<P>Early in the separation, my inlaws were not talking to me. I eventually invited them over about two months later to talk about the situation. My husband had told them a load of lies - that I had thrown him out (a technical truth, but highly misleading. He was emotionally abusing me and having an affair, and was never around to help with the baby.), that there were no third parties involved, and that I was unwilling to reconcile or go to counseling. When I met with them that night, they were angry at me - how could I kick my husband out when we just had a baby? Imagine that.<P>It wasn't hard for me to clarify what happened. All I had to do was say "OK, tell **** that he's welcome to move back home tomorrow. The door is open. Tell him that I have a few candidates for marriage counselors and would like his input on who to select, and I'll be glad to go with anyone he selects if he prefers someone else.". What do you think happened when they went back to him with everything I told them? Acknowledgment of some of the lies that were irrefutable (that I wanted to reconcile but he didn't), but more lies. For example, he told them that he started dating the OW AFTER I threw him out. They continued to buy this garbage and mostly still do. I don't think they can emotionally deal with reality of what he is, and that they raised him and have a role in it. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE.<P>Our husbands have become masters of living the selfish life. It's so ingrained that they can't even SEE a different viewpoint. They are right, we are wrong. By keeping it that simple, they never really have to consider anything we say. That keeps them from looking inside.<P>In the thousands of hours of analysis I focused on understanding this, I have come to believe that my husband must have always been this way. When we were a happy couple, I didn't see it. He looked to me to take care of almost everything in the relationship anyway. If he disagreed, for the sake of keeping the peace, he didn't tell me (even when asked). He made decisions that he disagreed with himself, because of what he believed I WOULD HAVE said, if he had actually discussed them with me. I was blamed for those self-inflicted decisions too. In short, I was blamed for everything. Nowadays, I'm blamed for his not seeing our daughter for almost two years, even though I arranged countless family outings during that time. He says that he didn't see her because I felt she was too young for overnights, even though I never said this and he never asked to see her. I have many letters to him requesting that he open his heart to her and spend time together, and e-mails to his family asking their help to get him to see her. Still, it's my fault in his mind. He couldn't be responsible for something this bad, after all.<P>We will never act in the selfish way that they do, but that doesn't mean that we need to invite them into our decision making process at this point. As I said in my last note, there are objective and reliable people WITH CHARACTER that can help us make balanced decisions. Our husbands can't do that. As long as you make your decisions fairly, they can be explained to the children at the appropriate time. There will be many trusted family members and friends to support your version if necessary. When you act with integrity and try to do the right things, it's usually apparent. Your children will know your normal pattern of behavior and be skeptical of interpretations that deviate from it. It's just as likely that once your kids do understand the situation, they question why you were so nice and understanding during this time. I ask myself that constantly.<P>I do nothing to get in the way of my husband seeing our children and I don't bad mouth him. But I no longer ask for his input on major or minor things. I inform and give him some time to object, but it's his responsibility to raise issues. I don't arrange things for him, there is no longer "family time", and I don't cover for him in public any more (he tries to act like we're a happy family at our son's sporting events, even as recently as Saturday). OK, I'll admit taking a perverse joy in "outing" him at a soccer team party in November, when I told one of the mom's we were getting divorced, and it spread like wildfire to all the parents. He left the party 15 minutes later. That's the most aggressive action I've taken during this divorce fiasco, believe it or not.<P>I take no responsibility for his life and neither does he. So he drifts along with nothing happening. But that too is his problem. The children and I are my concerns and I do the best I possibly can for us. At this point, my husband has nothing of value to add. If he ever does, he'll have to take the initiative to get involved. It won't be through my invitation or arrangement. But I will be glad to see it if it ever happens, and I won't interfere.<P>I hope you'll start to feel less guilt about what you're doing because I know your heart is in the right place. This is a very tough decision but my sense is you're making it responsibly. That's all you can do. Best of luck. I hope I didn't bore you - this turned into a vent for me.

tootrusting:<P>You are very strong and very brave. And though I believe in divorced couples living near each other normally for the good of the children, I encourage you to move closer to your family.<P>(I have no experience with mediators, since that is what your topic is.)<P>I've read your posts since coming to this board. You are absolutely right to move. Eventually your kids, if you stay in the place you live, are going to find out about their little half-sibling and their father's betrayal of THEM. It isn't just you he betrayed. He screwed the kids over too.<P>You have behaved with class. His family will never support you morally and emotionally they way they ought to. You're right; they are part of the problem.<P>Keep posting from your new home. And bless you and your kids. They have an excellent Mom.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Distressed wrote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> If he disagreed, for the sake of keeping the peace, he didn't tell me (even when asked). He made decisions that he disagreed with himself, because of what he believed I WOULD HAVE said, if he had actually discussed them with me. I was blamed for those self-inflicted decisions too. In short, I was blamed for everything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This has a familiar ring to it. A couple of months before he left, my H and I were discussing whether to sell our old car or fix it once again. I told him I wanted him to decide. Later on he claimed that we sold it because I wanted to. He apparently thought that I wanted to sell it, and consequently chose not to believe me when I said anything that conflicted with that belief. <P>Of course now he is going along with whatever the OW wants, or maybe even what he thinks she wants.