This is my first time posting on any site. I will try to make this very brief. I have been married for a year and a half. I dated my husband for 4 years prior to marrying. He lived with me for 3 of those 4 years. Basically, the problem is that I should not have married when I did. I had tried to get him to move out of my apartment so I could enjoy "single life" and being by myself but he would never leave. He wanted the marriage more than I did. So, I gave in. We then bought a house which I also didn't want to do. He, of course, wanted a house and couldn't obtain one without my financial help. We had problems before we married and had problems the first year of our marriage. About five months ago, I fessed up and told him how I've felt. He was hurt of course. Now, I want to seperate and probably eventually divorce. I'm not in love with him, I'm not sexually attracted to him, I want to be by myself and take care of my own problems, etc. I've been unhappy ever since right before we got married. I'd like to know if there is anyone who is or has been in similar situation.

Hello Libragirl and welcome.<P>Many of us here are spouses like myself that havbecome the BS (betrayed spouse.) Many of us have been told that our spouses are leaving so that "they can find themselves."<BR>So I'll take a shot here and throw in my two cents. Unfortunately marraige is viewed in this day and age as a matter of convience. When it becomes inconvienent people leave each other. We all seek that excitement of new love, and yearn for it from our partners as days pass and responsibility increases. <P>Do you really think people who do have sucessful marraiges that have withstood the test of time consider themselves still "infatuated with their partner"? Heck No!!!<BR>Love is much deeper. Think about your vows. Love, honor, respect. These things are established from a mutual trust and unconditional love. They are not present in the beginning of a relationship, when you "feel it."<P>A love that remains burning needs to be kindled or it will go out. That takes work!! But, we get busy with children, carreers, finances, etc. We lose any sense of ourselves sometimes. Until we wake up and say Whoa! stop the train. I am not happy. Happiness is subjective at best. <P>Consider why you decided to marry him. Take responsibility that he did not twist your arm. Marraige should not be disposable!! Talk to him, tell him that you are not happy. Something is missing. Be careful not to hurt him.<BR>Dont let this go too long, as it will continue to fester.<BR>He loves you, and I am willing to bet he wants you to be happy too.

I also welcome you LIBRAGIRL<P>You left an important fact out, do you have any children?<P>I do not in any way want to sound harsh but I think your only seeing what you want to see. Lets stop pointing blame at him for a while and look at yourself. <P>1. You had a choice on whether or not to shack up. You chose it as much as he did.<P>2. You had a choice on marriage. You said "I Do/I Will" and chose that.<P>3. You had a choice on the house. You signed and chose that.<P>Why did you make those decisions? Have you always been a person who is easily controlled? If you really feel that you were basically forced into those decisions than you probably have a lot of pinned up anger and unfortunatly your H will get the blunt end of your anger. Is it possible that you had this anger problem before you were dating him? <P>The decision that you are contemplating is one that should not be made without exploring yourself. You may be just as unhappy divorced as you are married. I would suggest some counseling for both of you together as well as apart.<P>There was a saying that we had in the Army "When you point one finger at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at you". I wish you the best and hope that you truly think through your decision.<P>Love, Bill

I will attempt to reply to my respondents. Thanks for replying by the way. I didn't realize how fast this can be! As I said, I don't know why I married when I did. I think part was a fear of hurting him if I said no. Other part maybe that I thought I would start to "feel" as if I really wanted to be married and it could all work out. It was an illusion. I've been trying to get that feeling since I"ve been married and it hasn't come across me. I just do not have the feeling of wanting to be married as I think most people who want to be married have a feeling that it's actually what they want for their life. I've talked to my husband about how I felt and actually when I told him 4 mos ago how I felt, he has done a 360 but I still don't have the desire to be married. It's like he's the perfect person now but it still hasn't changed my feelings of wanting to be married or even staying married. All I can think about is getting away from him and living the life I wanted to live before we got married; that being a single person living by myself, etc. I was happy with that life. I'm not happy with my life now. We do not have any children together, however he has a son and a two STEP CHILDREN from his previous marriage. All three live with his exwife who has custody of them. I don't have a desire to have kids right now. I'm 30. It was not my idea to "shack up". I was living by myself and he gradually moved things in from staying over a lot. You know how it goes. Then, he just moved on in without asking and without any conversation. I expressed for a long time how I wanted him to move out. I was close to throwing his things out but I didn't go that far, of course. From that point, he talked about how he wanted to buy a house bc he didn't like renting. Lease in my name, mind you but I had him to pay me 1/2 of the rent since he was living there also. He also gave me 1/2 utilities but everything was in my name. He wanted to buy a house before we even got married and I wasn't going to do that. So, I figured I go ahead and marry him then buy the house but I didn't want to do either. I dont' know why I made these decisions. I have been in counseling for about 8 months. My husband doesnt believe in counseling. He has gone with me a few times but doesnt' feel it helps him. I don't have an anger problem. I feel everyone deserves happiness and everyone makes mistakes. I feel I happened to have made probably the biggest mistake in my life so I learn from it and move on. However, I've told myself I will not divorce until I feel in my heart and mind that I have done everything I could do to make the marriage work.....Even if I didn't want it in the first place.

Hmm. You've posed a troubling conundrum, LIBRAGIRL. I am about as staunchly pro-marriage as you can get, and yet I wonder about the legitimacy of a marriage obtained by manipulation or coercion. At the same time, I wonder how much revisionism you are experiencing. The fact that you now say that you do not know why you married may be significant. When you are feeling as you do, it is natural to rewrite the past and believe that you didn't want the marriage. The truth may not be ascertainable even by you.<P>So let's just take matters from they stand <I>now</I>. What is it about being a single person living by yourself that you find so attractive? What do you miss about being a single person? And what would you miss about being married if you left your husband? Are there <I>any</I> conditions you can imagine in which you might actually find marriage to be preferable to being single?<BR>

I understand what you are saying. I only have one question: <P>In your statement "However, I've told myself I will not divorce until I feel in my heart and mind that I have done everything I could do to make the marriage work."<P>Is/did the last sentence bacome a self fulfilling prophecy?<P>Tex

In response, the thing I find attractive about singleness and living by myself is only having to deal with my own issues. The things I am about to mention maybe petty to most but they are things that are high on my list of things that will allow me to be happy and sane. By myself, I only have to worry about whether I have food to eat. I don't have to cook if I don't want and wouldn't have to hear someone else complaining if I don't. If I leave dirty dishes in the sink I'd know I did and noone else. Food I leave in the fridge would be there when I return. I don't have to clean unless I want. When i come home from work, I wouldn't have someone I HAVE to talk to. Time can be spend doing things that I enjoy doing whether at home or away from home and I woudln't feel like I HAVE to make time for someone else. It goes on and on. I woldn't have to have s.. when I didn't want to. The one thing I'd miss about being married is having the security of someone being there when you need them. Marriage can be preferable for financial reasons however, I can manage on my own if it meant my happiness.<BR>I don't quite get your question, Tex, but I think my answer is yes if I understand it correctly. It's something I need to do for myself, in other words.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LIBRAGIRL:<BR><B>The things I am about to mention maybe petty to most but they are things that are high on my list of things that will allow me to be happy and sane. By myself, I only have to worry about whether I have food to eat. I don't have to cook if I don't want and wouldn't have to hear someone else complaining if I don't. If I leave dirty dishes in the sink I'd know I did and noone else. Food I leave in the fridge would be there when I return. I don't have to clean unless I want. When i come home from work, I wouldn't have someone I HAVE to talk to. Time can be spend doing things that I enjoy doing whether at home or away from home and I woudln't feel like I HAVE to make time for someone else. It goes on and on. I woldn't have to have s.. when I didn't want to.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. Sounds kind of like what I know of my brother's marriage. He and his wife are both pretty self-contained people. As far as I can tell, he lives downstairs, and she lives upstairs.<P>None of these needs are incompatible with marriage, assuming they don't conflict with your husband's needs. You can have a separate shelf in the fridge if you want, or even a separate fridge if you've got room. Heck, make yourself a separate apartment if you want.<P>My point is, if you engage in some creative negotiation, you might be surprised at how much more comfortable you could be. Here's a really trivial example: my wife squeezes the toothpaste tube from the top, while I squeeze it from the bottom. Result: irritation. Solution: separate toothpaste tubes.<P>You sound like someone who requires more personal space than most other people. There's nothing wrong with that. But even people who like to be alone tend to value security and companionship.<P>It sounds to me like your husband trampled roughshod over your personal boundaries in the past, and this has placed a lot of stress and pressure on you. You haven't really had the opportunity to find out how you might respond if your relationship was restructured to give you the personal space you need.<P>But if you can get into a position where you can once again feel secure within your own boundaries, and if your husband does a better job of meeting your emotional needs, you might well find yourself <I>wanting</I> to reciprocate. You may well find yourself more and more frequently venturing from your secure personal space to spend time with him because that's what you really want to do.<P>If your husband's game, I think it would be worth a shot.<BR>

Thanks ..DePlume, you've pretty much got it in a nutshell. I appreciate your encouragement. Actually, my hustand has allowed me more time to myself. It's nice I must say but I still don't have the desire to even be at home with him under the same roof. I have no desire to do anything for, in or around the house. I just live here. I have visions of beutifying my own humble abode. I don't think HE is happy bc I'm not meeting his emotional needs. He wants to spend time together and I don't want to spend time with him. Maybe sometimes but definitly not as much as he'd want or even as much as I think a wife "should" spend with her husband. I really don't feel like I'm the type of person he truly would be happy with and he's even told me so. He's bending over backwards now to keep me but in the long run he would also suffer if his needs aren't met.

LIBRAGIRL, are you and your husband getting counseling? It doesn't sound to me as if either of you are in a position to make a good evaluation of your needs.<P>This is a bit weird, but for the second time today I am going to recommend the book <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809225131/o/qid=985207526/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/002-9618493-4324828" TARGET=_blank>Should I Stay or Go</A>. Separation came <I>very close</I> to turning my marriage around, but unfortunately my wife and I didn't apply any structure to our separation. (And then there were unrecognized psychological issues that torpedoed the whole thing. Perhaps the separation actually worked too well, and allowed us to get too close...)<P>I have come to believe that we need to be capable of emotional independence before we can be truly interdependent. I wonder if your husband has that level of maturity? There must be some reason he was attracted to you in the first place...<BR>

Libragirl, I KNOW what you are going through, currently going through it myself. This weekend I had to confront my spouse to talk about separation terms.<BR>I can just say from my experience that my spouse is more of a friend to me then anything. He never thought anything was wrong when there was, so my decision for divorce was a complete shock to him. <BR>I agree with LostHusband, you may be unhappy divorced also, but YOU must find out WHY you are unhappy. Sometimes, no matter how great the other partner is, it isn't going to change YOUR opinion of things. <BR>And Learning as I go said 'be careful not to hurt him', I think it's already at that point. It's practically impossible NOT to hurt someone when you're thinking about divorce. I wasn't 'mean' when I told my husband I wanted the divorce, I sat for hours upon hours listening to him, and even telling him 'it's not you' WHICH I know when you are the one hearing it, you don't believe it. However each situation in unique. <BR>I believe you have to HAPPY with yourself FIRST before getting involved in a relationship, THEN have happiness as a couple. (and some of these lessons I learned a little late!) But if it's not there to begin with, it is possible to have made a MISTAKE and gotten married. True, marriages are easier to get out of then some gym club memberships, but this doesn't mean that all people find it a convienence to get a divorce. It's not a convienence. I truly believed that my marriage would work out, I did not "believe" in divorce. I now believe until you are in the same situation you'd never know how to react and NO ONE will EVER be in the EXACT situation as you for we are all individuals. I also believe it is NOT fair to your partner if you KNOW this relationship isn't working for you. I want my husband (soon to be ex) to find someone that can love me as he loved me. It may be ironic, he and I are friends and I think I'll be protective of him! I don't want another woman to hurt him as I did and I didn't do it intentionally.<BR>Sorry for the soap opera, but I wish you the best! Everything will work out for both of you.<BR>

anonymous1, I am not going to argue that getting married is never a mistake. Sometimes, clearly, it is. And I'm not going to pretend to know your circumstances, because I don't. All I can speak to is regarding what happened to me.<P>My wife told me that I would be better off with someone else. She told me she couldn't meet my needs. She told me that we "needed" to get a divorce.<P>My wife did not take the time to learn what my needs actually were. She <I>assumed</I> she knew what they were, she even <I>told</I> me what they were, and she was wrong. She wouldn't or couldn't understand what I really wanted.<P>Everything I wanted from her was something she had already demonstrated a willingness, even a desire, to give. Once upon a time.<P>My wife is intelligent and talented, but she is <I>not</I> a good actor. There was a time that my wife was "in love" with me and was happy in our marriage. But she has forgotten this. She is so fixated on her "need" to get out of our marriage that she can no longer allow herself to remember how our marriage once was.<P>I understand this, and I even believe I understand how and why this happened. But no matter what my wife believes about me or our marriage, it will not and can not change who I am. And I would rather have my wife with all her problems and all my resultant frustrations, than have some fantasy woman who my wife decided to invent for me.<P>Yes, every situation is unique. But the <I>patterns</I> are not. However different the situations are, somehow it's the same old stories that get told over and over again. I don't know which story you are in, but I can pretty much guarantee that you're playing a role that has been played countless times before.<P>It would be wise to figure out your role. Because not all the stories have happy endings.<BR>

GnomeDePlume, are you saying that people form a pattern in relationships and therefore they are doomed to repeat the same 'mistake' in each and every relationship? That people do not change? That people don't learn? <BR>If so, I might as well not look for a relationship. <BR>I KNOW what OUR mistake was, my husband and I are friends and I know that it will never be the same between us but I rather we learned that this marriage wasn't for us sooner then later. <BR>I'll also admit that I have not been in many relationships and that my 'longest' relationship was with my husband before we got married. I've learned A LOT about myself throughout it all. And I'm still learning.<BR>My "story" is indeed unique, I know this because I have yet to find anyone with a similiar tale as mine on ANY website. I do not feel comfortable talking about all the details in my situation. However this site has opened my eyes to new things and it is helping me. I have to KNOW myself before someone else can 'figure' it out. There's more to it then just knowing myself. And I do believe there was two of us in the marriage and it takes two to make it work. But isn't hard to make a marriage work when neither of you should have been in it in the first place?<BR> <BR>I know all stories do not have happy endings, but it doesn't have to have end in horror either. As long as we both know it wasn't meant to be and it wasn't any ONE person's FAULT... I think that will do for both of us.<BR>

Thanks Anonymous1. I can relate to what you are saying and I agree also that you must be happy with yourself before being able to make someone else happy. I also believe everyone deserves to be happy and it came to me today to have the following look on life: If you die tomorrow, would you die happy with the way your life is going or not? I would say I woudn't die happy bc I'm in a marriage I do not want to be in at this point in my life and one that I should not have entered into when I did.

Libragirl,<P>I hope you find happiness! It's not an easy road either, still taking my time walking through it! But I am happier now! Just taking a day at a time you know?<BR>Take care!<P><p>[This message has been edited by anonymous1 (edited March 26, 2001).]

LIBRAGIRL,<P>When I met privately with my counselor without my W, he told me that what she is going through (and what you are going through) is a very common occurrence. But he said that it usually does not come to light until later in marriage (10 to 15 years later). We were married for 3 years when this all came to the surface. Did we have problems before that? Sure. Were they huge problems? No - nothing drastic or serious. The counselor put it to me this way: He asked me if I had ever lived by myself alone. I said yes. He asked me what it was like. I said "it was OK, I mean I like being by myself, but there are a lot of responsibilities and bills and such". Then he asked me to try and imagine what it would be like if I never had the chance to live alone. What would I imagine. I said "it would probably appear to be great! I would be focusing on all the positives of living alone - no worries".<P>He said "exactly! That is what your wife is doing". In his opinion she had become dissillusioned by our marriage. Things had gotten tough, so she began to look for reasons why it was a mistake to be married.<P>From what he told me, I have expanded it a little further. She began to rationalize our entire relationship - ALL the way back to the beginning. She said we should have just been friends. She said she did not want to get married. She said that she didn't think she ever loved me. That there were no good times in our relationship. That I needed someone better than her - She could not give me what I needed.<P>You know what - I began to believe her - I really did. That is up until about 6 months after she moved out. Then the memories began to come back - the good times - the times we were in love. You see, she was focusing on the bad because that is what she needed to do, to convince herself that a divorce was the ONLY solution. She did it so well that she had me doubting myself.<P>Now I see it for what it is, and I am sorry if this sounds blunt but, she was/is only being selfish. You may have heard these words spoken to you (or you will soon enough) "the grass is not greener on the other side". But you know what, most people don't listen to those words - unfortunately they must experience them. You too sound like your world is all about what "you want" and what will make "you happy". I don't know, maybe we are just that different - Living to me is more than just making myself happy - It is caring about other people - family, friends and most of all my wife.<P>Almost everything I have done in our marriage was done to make her happy. But what I realized is what was previously written here "you have to make yourself happy". But that does not mean you need material items or to be selfish. It means that happiness comes from within. Happiness can occur in any situation. People who are starving poor can still be happy. As much pain as I have gone through since my wife left, I am still very much happy. I think until people figure out that what they focus on is what makes them happy or sad, they are destined to keep "looking" for other people/things to MAKE them happy.<P>But like my wife, I don't think anything will save your marriage. That is until you have a change of heart. I don't mean "until you fall in-love with your husband again", I mean until you believe that your marriage DOES have a chance to be saved, BUT it will take some hard work on both of your parts. Until you want your marriage to work, nothing you say or do will change it. You must want it. Whether you can or not is up to you.<P>God gave us marriage to share, to give, to grow in each other, to love. No where did He ever say it would be easy, or it would be the "white picket fence" feelings every day. To me, marriage is a test. A test of true love. A test that both spouses continually take day-in and day-out. There is no room whatsoever in a marriage for selfish thoughts and/or desires. Bare with me as I quote something for you:<P>[actually I was going put it here, but I think it deserves its own post - I will post it under "what is love?" - take a read]<P>It kind of interests me that you barely mention your H's needs at all in any of your posts. But, you say he is a good friend, right? Whenever I talk about my good friends, I am ALWAYS interested in their needs. So following your messages, I guess I am to conclude that you are not even a friend to your husband huh? What I am trying to say is that be careful not to "re-color" your whole relationship because you are not happy. It is very, very easy for us humans to rationalize our actions, especially when we are worried that what we are doing may not be the "right" thing to do.<P>I am sorry if anything in this message seems attacking. It is just that I went through (going through) a similar situation and I am on the other end. And while I do admit my W and I had problems, it is so clear to me now what she did in her mind to want a divorce... In addition, she even has recanted some of the things she said to me all those months ago (things that you are now saying). No she still has not come back and to be honest I don't know what is going to happen with us. But I have left that all in God's hands.<P>But do keep in mind that you will be putting your husband through a living hell. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind of that. You will hurt him more than anyone has hurt him in his whole entire life. You will NOT be doing him a favor. You are not looking out for his interests. Just don't kid yourself. Know the severity of the decisions you now make. I am not telling you what you should do, that is entirely up to you. All I am giving you is some things to think about as you make-up your mind...<P>God Bless both you AND your husband..<BR>Mik<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.<P>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 27, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anonymous1:<BR><B>GnomeDePlume, are you saying that people form a pattern in relationships and therefore they are doomed to repeat the same 'mistake' in each and every relationship? That people do not change? That people don't learn? <BR>If so, I might as well not look for a relationship.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, I am saying that despite the <I>uniqueness</I> of our individual "stories", our stories are never entirely <I>original</I>. The nature of the human psyche is the same the world over, and there are psychological and spiritual patterns that recur again and again, in one story after the next.<P>If you think you're a "special case", that could be because you're hung up on the details, or because you haven't looked hard enough for similar cases (it took me weeks of poring through dozens of books on all kinds of different subjects before I stumbled across one that had <I>my</I> story). Or, it could be because you need to <I>believe</I> you're a special case because the hard-won wisdom of others goes against what you want to do.<BR>

GnomeDePlume,<BR>"our stories are never entirely original"<BR>I agree, not entirely, however life isn't a story, everyone could live the same storyline but it's the PEOPLE that make the 'story' unique, each person will react in their own way. And this is what make each 'story' different, so now it's not the 'same story'.<BR>"you're hung up on the details, or because you haven't looked hard enough for similar cases (it took me weeks of poring through dozens of books on all kinds of different subjects before I stumbled across one that had my story)."<BR>DETAILS is what makes each 'story' unique. DETAILS are important. I haven't looked hard enough? You looked for weeks, I've been looking for years... <BR>Each story began with an original... although the possibility might seem small, it is POSSIBLE that a new 'story' comes along... OR it seems like a new story because it hasn't been previously publicized. I do not believe I am the first person to be in the situation I am in, however I do believe the people don't go sharing it as easily as other situations. As I've said before I DO NOT feel comfortable sharing my situation, as many others aren't. Maybe one day I will, but not today.<BR>I listen to everyone's 'wisdom', I have my own too, everyone gives their wisdom from their experience right? Their experience isn't the same as mine, therefore, I do listen, for there's always a chance some part of their story may relate to mine, but in the end, it is I that has to live with the decision I make.<BR>I wish the people on the 'receiving' end of the divorce speech that DO agree that the divorce is mutual would post. It seems like whoever gives the speech is automatically branded 'evil'... <BR>Libragirl wish you the best! <BR>

anonymous1, I can relate to your reluctance to share the "unique" details of your situation. There are extremely significant elements of my own situation that I have not shared, for reasons of privacy and discomfort.<P>I became aware of certain problems in my marriage almost immediately, but was married for eleven years before I inadvertently tripped over <I>one</I> of the right questions to ask. Even then I stumbled around in the dark for another year, until the hole I had unwittingly made in the dike suddenly gave way and brought the whole thing crashing down. My multi-week search for a pattern that finally succeeded (or so I believe) occured only <I>after</I> all this mess happened. Sometimes an autopsy is more effective for diagnosis than a medical examination.<P>I remain convinced that the patterns are more important than the details. Not that it matters if you can't <I>find</I> the pattern...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anonymous1:<BR><B>I wish the people on the 'receiving' end of the divorce speech that DO agree that the divorce is mutual would post. It seems like whoever gives the speech is automatically branded 'evil'... <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe it is because there aren't any people out there who think a divorce is "mutually" beneficial. Kind of like when we were back in school (or for some even now) and two people tried to have an "open" relationship where you are free to date other people - one of the parnters ALWAYS gets hurt.<P>And if they feel all fine and dandy about the divorce, there is a good chance they would not be here on this site...<P>Just a thought....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.