Hi all,<P>I still wonder what the consensus is on the proper relationship with an EX, especially with kids involved.<P>I understand that kids should not be made to suffer, so clearly being bitter, angry, and argumentative with the EX in front of the kids is unacceptable. I have no problem with that.<P>What I do find hard to accept is the idea that my W and I need to be a "friends" even if we divorce. I can see us being civil, I can see us being cordial, but why do I need to be her friend? She betrayed my trust in her with her affair, she continued her affair until I lost all respect for her, and now all of a sudden I need to be her friend? I just don't get it.<P>Moreover, I wonder if that sends the <B>wrong</B> message to the kids. Sort of like "well, kids, mom and dad gave it a go, but then mom got a better offer and split, but it's okay, no harm no foul". I don't want to show bitterness towards her, but wouldn't I want to somehow show them that this is <B>not</B> the right way to resolve issues?<P>I read on the GQ forum about the concept that relationships start out as friendship, and thus if the marriage fails, people can still be friends. I don't buy that logic. I don't think that this is a reversible process. I think that people who start out by being friends, get married, get divorced, and then still are friends, either must have made a mutual decision to divorce, or never grew into anything more than being friends in their marriage. I made a commitment to my W to be her <B>spouse</B> for the rest of our lives, and if she throws that away, she throws away the whole bag. I fail to see how I can be friends with someone whom I don't trust or don't respect(?).<P>So, what's a good calibration for acting towards your EX in a way that doesn't hurt the kids, yet doesn't force you to live your life as a fake?<P>FWIW, I chatted with Harley about this last week, and he seemed to think that it would be absurd for my W to <B>expect</B> that I will be her friend if we divorce. He said that after divorce, I will learn to cope by buiding an emotional wall between myself and my W so as not to hurt anymore, and that that wall pretty much makes it impossible for us to be really good friends. I liked this thought process, but I got a little beat up on the EN forum for suggesting this, since the kids need a "united front from mom and dad". So I'm still scratching my head...<P>AGG<p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited March 26, 2001).]

Whether you can be friends I think depends on whether you can ever reach a shared view of the factors that resulted in divorce, and a shared view that there should not be a marriage (if there's a shared view that there should be a marriage, obviously then you remarry each other). With each party taking an amount of blame that satisfies the other. And where possible, making such amends as are appropriate.<P>For some, that will never be possible. For others, it would be unwise. But I think in the majority of cases where children are involved it is both necessary and appropriate, and helps to restore their model that men and women <I>can</I> work things out, forgive, come back together (perhaps not all the way back together), etc. The other alternative appears to children as simple obstinacy, rather than as an example of morality in action.

I have to say that I totally agree with your point of view on this.<P>Remaining civil, and cooperating over issues related to children, I can complete understand and agree with. Friendship is asking far too much. <P>Detached courteousy is the way I hope that I will be able to maintain things with my stbx.<P>But then again, I logically know I should do lots of things, and do something else entirely...<P>

This issue is such a sore spot with me right now. I do believe that the anger bitterness and resentment that come as baggage with D need to be dampered for kids sake. But I feel like AGG in that all this united stuff for the kids sake is for the birds. It is just another example of how we never make any one responsible for anything!!!!!! It Pi##es me off. MY H IS RESPONSIBLE for breaking up this family. He needs to take on that responsibility and all the fall out it causes. <P>Example: D has a friend on the street who constatntly tries to cause problems btwn D and another friend. D gets all upset when they tell her they don't like her and don't want to play with her. They will then turn around suck her in and then reject her. IT is all a control issue with the bully friend. He fears being left out and intentionally causes this conflict. I always tell my daughter that someone who acts like that is not a true friend. A true friend stands by you always and treats you nice. You treat friends in a way that you would like to be treated.<P>So do I back up what I say by showing her that Daddy treated mommy poorly so he no longer deserves my friendship because he wasn't a good friend to me or do I set a bad example and remain his friend "for the sake of the kids" In my book... I don't think so. Think it shows D that she should accept being treated without respect. I certainly don't want her to grow up like that!!<P>This is a great issue to debate. Wish we could all sit down together and talk it out face to face!!<P>Anyway I think H is using want to be friends as a crutch to alleviate guilt during D and as soon as he is off onto a new relationship the kids and I will be yesterdays news and no friendship will be required. He will be gone!!! All we will be is a thorn in his financial side.<P>

I've been on many different levels of friendship since my ex and I split up.<P>In the beginning, we tried the "friends" thing, but I was still hung up on the marriage/pending divorce. Like you said, it seemed strange to say, ok it didn't work, but hey lets be friends.<P>I tried hating him. I thought, that would be easier. Guess what, its harder and it made me feel bitter and angry all the time.<P>My lawyer said, think of him like a business partner at this point. You know you have to deal with him the rest of your life. Stick to the terms of the contract (divorce papers) and when its not followed go to court, make changes, but remember it as a contract.<P>I tried that for a while too.<P>At some point, like Sisyphus said, we both took the 50/50 blame. In my eyes, I gave 110% though,but still I wasn't perfect and missed something important to lose my H to an affair, so right there, I'm at fault. <P>We just had a talk last week , 15 mos after he left, and we decided that we should always be civil and respectful. Not only in front of the kids, but its too much of a drain of energy to play games and put on an act in front of the kids, and bicker when they are not around. We agree that , we fought when we were married, we'll surely fight now, usually its over the over involvement of OW in the kids lives. But for now, thats where I'm at.<P>I feel slighted though. He cheats on me after all I felt I tried, then he goes off, lives with OW, falls in love, now they are engaged. He decided to do for her everything I asked of him, and she's SO happy all the time he feels its a great relationship. He admits if he just did the dishes, or picked up his d*mn underwear, I might have been more pleasant. <P>So with that, its still a burden for me to even be civil at times, but I do it for the kids. <P>Good luck, Dana<BR>

Hi,<BR>This is a real topic that is often painful to discuss. I have been given many opinions pro and con on this item. Based on my situation, H is not acting as a friend. That course unfortunately is not a secret from our child. He has seen his dad in action (like smashing his laptop to smithereens and pushing me down). Children are not blind. They have their thoughts and feelings which are often not considered or acknowledged. <P>I think it is important to know what our children's opinions are and this will and has helped me know how to deal with H. H has been taking advantage not just of me but also our child. Our child is quite aware of this and when asked has expressed disappointment and displeasure in his father's actions. <P>Just yesterday, my little one asked if dad was not coming back, could I please get him another dad. He said that he would prefer his real dad to be with us but if his real dad did not want to be with us, he would be willing to have someone else who wanted to be with us. INSIGHT!!! I would not have found all this out if I did not ask. My son thinks that his opinion should not be volunteered. Yet he did have a very strong opinion. <P>So, my actions on being 'friends' with H or STBXH (whatever) is based on not just my opinion but also that of our son. I still think that H's definition of being a friend may be very different than mine and if I don't clarify that soon, we may be running in 2 different directions because of misunderstanding a simple word like what being a friend really means to each of us. <P>Why am I so staunch on this subject? Because I see that Ws's have their own mental warped definitions and we often mistake what they say because we are using the Webster definitions vs the WS/OW dictionary. So I would like to see more clarity before saying I can be his friend. <P>L.<P>

We had n children and so once the D is final we need not see each other again. The thing is through all this BS we still managed to have very good days in which we had a lot of fun. Maybe that's why this D seems like such a bad idea. My h and I "got along" and never fought until the A. Very strange.<BR> I mean the day before I left we ended up playfighting on the living room floor and having sex. The day before I had to leave because he flipped out. Now, what's wrong with this picture? <BR> I would love to have him as a friend but only as his old self, this new persona is not to my liking and I'd rather not.

AGG,<P>How can you be friends with someone who has qualities you don't agree with. Before the affair/divorce, my x and I were in pretty close agreement on childrearing.<P>Now she has flip-flopped, allowing the kids to watch anything they want including R rated movies (kids are 10&13). When we were together, she wouldn't let the kids watch anything with witches in it, like Sebrina, now anything goes.<P>If I try to discuss anything with her, it usually gets all blown out of proportion like a couple weeks ago.<P>I am trying to handle it as a business arrangement. I will be cordial only, I do not plan on being friendly even though the kids expect more. LAst year, my son told me x was sick, and I did't respond, and he said I acted like I didn't even care, and I didn't, but couldn't let him know that.So I had to make a big deal about it to him. That made him feel better. I could care less about x now.

David (my ex) and I just got off the phone from a very long conversation about just this subject.<P>We agree that remaining friendly is important for the kids, but that being "friends" in the classic way is impossible. <P>For example, I might ask a male friend (if I had any) a question about the man I'm in a relationship with now -- something like, "When he says this, what does he mean?" -- just as David may ask a female friend about his GF. I'm not going to ask David my question, as he won't ask me. <P>Unlike Bob, I **do** care about my ex, and the last thing I want to do is hurt him more than he's been hurt already, and he has said (and shown) the same curteousy (sp?) toward me. I am thankful for that!<P>So... friend<B>LY</B>, not friends.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 26, 2001).]

Thanks, AGG, for starting this conversation. <P>My H (married 11 years, no kids, separated 1-1/2 years, he lives with OW) wants us to be friends too. I don't think it's possible....for us or for anybody, for that matter. I just don't think a once-married couple can separate out the "friendship" factors from the other factors in their marriage....they are too bound up together. I also don't think it's a "nice" thing to ask of the BS...to me it's disrespectful...to anything and everything that was good about the marriage.<P>I'm in Plan B and will remain there until a divorce happens (which I don't want and don't want to file, but might have to eventually). We hardly communicate now except about common bills, but when we do, we are civil and I treat him like I'm doing business...("detached courtesy"...I like that). I know it bothers him that I'm not more friendly, but you know...you just can't have it both ways. I was MARRIED to him, for God's sake! I was BOUND to him....heart and soul. I gave my all and he didn't. He made a choice that has real consequences...and one of those consequences is that this will not just boil down to a generic term called "friendship."<P>That's the truth and covering it up with..."okay now that's all in the past...let's just move forward being friends...." Bull!<P>Anyway, thanks...because I've been thinking about this myself and I'm glad to see that others feel the same way. Ya know....life has emotion and passion. To just mesh all the joy, pain, love, hurt, etc. into a pot called "friendship," is denying that there are REAL DEEP and STRONG feelings involved here, both good and bad. Even tho our society wants it to be so, you can't always tied everything up into one, nice, simple, fast and easy package.<P>We're ALIVE, for heaven's sake. And life isn't that simple.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Hey Gang,<P>Just got off the phone with Valerie. She wondered if I called the office early this am asking for her. The answering service didn't get a name. Nope, not me. I have nothing to tell her. I like doing things by mail.<P>We don't have children together, only bills that we have worked out that we will continue to pay 50/50. I also got the "let's be friends" gig. No "friend" of mine ever lied to me and remained a buddy. But, I remember that I love/d this woman for 13 years and can't be mean to her. What comes around goes around, the law of three fold, she is not happy and the relationship will not last. I don't need to be nasty, the universe will take care of that all by itself.<P>Anyway, I answered her question in under thirty seconds. She wondered why I was out of breath, what am I doing, what's new, I thought you were moving, why are you fixing up the house? Geez, chick, you didn't talk to me that much when you were living here. <P>I could sit and analyze this to death, but I won't. Not that I don't care. It's because I know why she does it. I'm very happy with my NEW life and she is not. I found someone that truly cares and that I doubt would ever lie to me. If she does, GINA is dead!!!<P>Friends? NO!!! Friendly, yes<P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

HI AGG,<P>good topic.<P>NO WAY.<P>I will be civil, and courteous, but that is it. I will never badmouth him to the children, I will never hit him again(!!!) but I will not be friends.<P>I tried that, but like in my marriage, I was the only one doing it. Unless I did all the hard work, it didn't happen.<P>I got tired of doing all the work re maintaining our friendship. No more.<P>I agree with everything you said. It's NOT ok for them to do what they did. It's NOT ok for them to treat us the way they did. Like Medic said, none of my friends have ever treated me like that, and if they did, they wouldn't be friends for long.<P>can't talk about this, it still makes me upset.<P>Jo

MrsO.<P>You stated so well what I feel. I get so wrapped up in emtion that I find it hard to says things as I would like. My mind races miles ahead of my fingers and it comes out boggled.<P>You are so right on the mark.

I think it is possible for mature people to be friends, even after infidelity that leads to divorce. But in order for it to happen, both parties need to fully acknowledge the wrongs they have inflicted on each other and make a substantive and sincere effort to make amends. I think most people are fully capable of forgiveness when genuine remorse is present.<P>BUT, when there's an unrepentent, unremorseful, cheater and liar who has never owned up to what he's done, FORGET IT. Who could genuinely respect someone like that? Without respect, there's no friendship. Sure, you can put on a smile and be civil in front of the kids and in public (I do this constantly), but that's not friendship.<P>So, I say it depends on the circumstance. Odds are, however, that if you're capable of being great friends after divorce, you were probably also capable of fixing the marriage if both parties were willing to do so.

I agree with what Distressed just said. So now I don't need to type anymore!

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject. I see that I am not the only one for whom this "let's be friends" line seems odd, if not insulting .<P>Distressed, I love your the way you phrased it: "if you're capable of being great friends after divorce, you were probably also capable of fixing the marriage". How true.<P>Anyway, I wanted to explain the reason for my original question. I got a little beat up on the EN forum for even considering a Plan B, since there are two small kids involved. I was told (by someone whom I greatly respect) that Plan B hurts the kids, and it is not fair to hurt them, and that even if we get divorced, I should always be on the same "team" with my (X)W for the kids' sake.<P>So I am trying to find a reasonable balance between protecting the kids and educating the kids. I understand that especially for little kids, it is probably better to "suck it up" and play a big happy family for their benefit. But at some point, they will ask whose idea the divorce was, what were the circumstances, etc. And I do have a big problem with lying to them. I also don't want to give them the impression that divorce is no big deal, that there are no real sacrifices that go along with destroying a family.<P>A very hard balance to find, IMO. How do you show kids how painful divorce is (in hopes of discouraging them from following the same path) without subjecting them to the unnecessary pain??<P>AGG <p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited March 27, 2001).]

I think it depends - I agree plan B is painful for the children, BUT, if the result is that you can save your marriage, in the long run, it is a positive for the children. Plan B is about protecting YOU anyway, and I don't know about anyone else, but I had to go to plan B when my turmoil from my relationship was affecting my ability to be a good mother. <P>In my case, I wrote a plan B letter that included detailed rules for visitation. That way, we didn't have to communicate. I also gave my kids their own phone and unlimited freedom to call their dad anytime. They have their own computer, and their own ICQ account that they use to 'chat' with their dad during the day while he's at work.<P>I had to plan creatively to make sure that they had contact, but I didn't.<P>Yes, it hurts. But I personally feel it is wrong to lie to my kids. I don't drag them into the nitty gritty of the problems in my marriage, but I am very clear with them that their father is an alcoholic (I took them to 14 week course geared for kids of alcoholics) and explain to them clearly what the impact of the disease has on our marriage, and on his relationship with them. We are Catholic, I'm raising catholic children. So, I have explained to them about the signicance of the sacrament of marriage, and vows made to God. I explained to them about the 10 commandments, and that the "shalt not committ adultery" meant that Mommys and Daddys can't have girlfriends or boyfriends or dates.<P>As a result, they understand that grownups make choices and sometimes grownups make bad choices. They understand that their dad is making choices under the influence of a terrible disease that none of us can control. But regardless of the reasons behind the choices, that choices and actions have consequences. And that EVERYONE deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. And that when someone doesn't treat you with respect, that its ok to protect yourself.<P>I explained that their father's disease has caused him to stop loving me, but that he has never stopped loving them and that they will always be his children - nothing can change that.<P>My son's therapist told me later that I had done a good job of explaining our complicated mess to my children, because my son clearly understood and communicated to the therapist that he did not feel at fault for the problems. <P>So to make a long reply shorter - I can say that I think I have shown my children the seriousness of marital commitment, and the importance of values, choices and consequences. They understand all too painfully well the seriousness of divorce.<P>I think there are alot of positive life lessons that children can learn - protecting our children IS very important, but sheltering them from the lessons that we can teach them is not always the best answer either.<P>I don't think I'd be teaching my kids a very good lesson if I decided to continue a 'friendship' with their dad after all that he has done to me.<P>I will of course, do everything I can to assist them in having access to him - but I can do that without friendship!<P>

Hi,<BR>this is the first time I am writing in a forum but I read a lot of interesting things here, which helped me a lot.<BR>My ex-wife started talking about divorce and then I found out her 3 or 4 months old affair and tried hard to save our marriage. I was very disappointed and depressed with the affair but she said to not be able to help me. Even though I tried hard with plan A. Three months latter she admitted to have quitted the affair but still insisted on divorcing.<BR>We have two children that I love (7 and 4). I convinced her to go with me for counseling and after 6 months of sections I found out that she was still deeply involved with the OM (a client of her small advertisement agency). At that time I immediately convinced myself to agree with her, quit the marriage and apply for divorce.<BR>She ran into a deep depression crisis and asked me to give her another chance and that she would do all her best to save our marriage. The only point I insisted with her in order to start the recovery would be to sever all contact to the OM, i.e., she would lose her client. She said she would never do that because she is very professional and know how to separately handle professional and personal matters and that this meant that I didn’t trust her any longer and would be trying to control her.<BR>She came back again to all my faults that she used to justify her affair and decided that I was a bad husband, father and companion.<BR>She never accepted any criticism to her and strongly believed she was an almost perfect person and that all our marital problems were due to my faults.<BR>I discussed all these matters alone with our therapist and concluded she has a narcissist personality (is very proud of herself, never imagines herself in your situation, can not be criticized, only faces reality when in a deep problem crisis but returns to the old style as soon as such crisis is over, etc). <BR>Now as AGoodGuy said, how can we be friends if she betrayed my trust in her with her affair, she continued her affair until I lost all respect for her, lied to me, disrespected me and humiliated me in the worst way she could do and never admitted that she had any fault or that the affair had anything to do with me (she said: “You shouldn’t focus on the affair. It is not due to the affair that I want the divorce”).<BR>As if this were not enough, latter on, during the divorce paper issues, we had a hard time on the negotiations. It was really hard to make an agreement with her. She made a lot of black mailing (using children, money, etc), which were not successful but just increased her feeling of being a victim.<BR>And now I need to be her friend? Impossible.<BR>She left home with the children 4 months ago and seems to be no longer with the OM but he is still her "most special client". When talking to her few friends, she keeps blaming only me for the end of the marriage as if she had no fault. As Sisyphus said, it would be important that each party takes an amount of blame that satisfies the other. And where possible, making such amends as are appropriate. She does not know the word blame for herself.<BR>Now that I am almost completely recovered form the affair and divorce, she is frequently calling me to ask a lot of favors for herself, which I reject. I do everything I can for the children only. I am always telling her that she should ask such favors to the better friend she ever had, to the person that will always be on her side in any circumstance as she told me thousand of times, not to me. For her I do just what is clearly written in the divorce papers.<BR>Impossible to be friends. We could act as friends in front of the children but they would see this is fake. I simply do not talk to her in front of the children. I know this is not good but what can I do? It would be too unrealistic to pretend we are friends.<BR>Trying to be civil is my limit.<BR>

From my post... MB Concepts in Christian Scripture for Plan B (whether before or after divorce)...<P><B>Mark 6:11</B> - And if any place will not receive you and they refuse to hear you, when you <B>leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet</B> for a testimony against them." (and Matthew 10:14, Luke 9:5 and Luke 10:11)<P><B>1 Corinthians 7:15</B> - But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace. <P><B>2 Corinthians 6:</B> 14 Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? <P><B>1 Ch 28:9</B> - ... know the God of your father, and serve him with single mind and willing heart; for the Lord searches every mind, and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will abandon you forever. <P><B>Hosea 10:10</B> - I will come against the wayward people to chastise them; and nations shall be gathered against them when they are chastised for their double iniquity. <P><B>Joshua 2:20</B> - But if thou wilt betray us, and utter this word abroad, we shall be quit of this oath, which thou hast made us swear.<P><B>Joshua 24:20</B> - If you leave the Lord, and serve strange gods, he will turn, and will afflict you, and will destroy you after all the good he hath done you.<P><B>Nahum 1:3</B> - The LORD is slow to anger and of great might, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.<P><B>Acts 2:26-27</B> - therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; moreover my flesh will dwell in hope. For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let thy Holy One see corruption.<P><B>Revelation 2:3-5</B> - I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Distresses stated it very well, my x has shown no remorse. She said she was leaving anyway and om just happened to come along. When I have tried to be friendly, she has just acted like nothing ever happened and that we are acquaintences and inevitably brings up om's name.<P>I don't need friends like that. As for being on the same team for the kids, yes I will do that. But as residential parent of them and them only spending a limited amount of time with her, what imput does she really have? <P>They only time she came to me on something about the kids was when our d was having problems accepting om. X wanted to use my benefits to pay for d's counseling. Since it involved my d, I said yes.<P>I have called x about concerns I have with d, going to R rated movies, going to a restaurant/bar. X semi backed me up on these, first agreeing with my take, then changing her mind and not telling me about it.<P>I even called x about which orthodontist to take son too. No offer to pay or recommendations. So do I have her as a team mate, barely in my opinion.