I was thinking about AGoodGuy's thread and came across this in my Documents folder. Just thought I'd throw it out there for anyone that might appreciate it.<P><< A FRIEND..... >><BR>(A)ccepts you as you are<BR>(B)elieves in "you"<BR>(C)alls you just to say "HI"<BR>(D)oesn't give up on you<BR>(E)nvisions the whole of you (even the unfinished parts)<BR>(F)orgives your mistakes<BR>(G)ives unconditionally<BR>(H)elps you<BR>(I)nvites you over<BR>(J)ust "be" with you<BR>(K)eeps you close at heart<BR>(L)oves you for who you are<BR>(M)akes a difference in your life<BR>(N)ever Judges<BR>(O)ffers support<BR>(P)icks you up<BR>(Q)uiets your fears<BR>(R)aises your spirits<BR>(S)ays nice things about you<BR>(T)ells you the truth when you need to hear it<BR>(U)nderstands you<BR>(V)alues you<BR>(W)alks beside you<BR>(X)-plains things you don't understand<BR>(Y)ells when you won't listen and<BR>(Z)aps you back to reality<P>Since my stbx is none of these things...friendship won't be in our future....

BrambleRose,<P>Maybe those here who say they are divorcing because they think they should have just been "friends" with their spouses should read the above... Are the decisions they are making about their spouses based even on friendship? Or could it be just their own selfishness instead??<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 27, 2001).]

duplicate<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited March 27, 2001).]

Hi Mike:<P>I can't answer for anyone else's reasons for divorcing. I know that a very long time ago, I used to think that divorced people were basically selfish and who didn't try hard enough at their marriage. I used to think that divorced people didn't love their children.<P>Now I am being repaid for every snotty judgemental thought I have ever had about divorced people, as I join the ranks of divorcing/divorced Americans.<P>I haven't been on this board very long, but I have yet to read a post from anyone who just got divorced because they were selfish. I have seen a great deal of agony, anguish and hurt - a great deal of soul searching and struggle to find answers.<P>In my case, if moving heaven and earth would have saved my marriage, I would have done it. I know that I poured out myself heart and soul into my marriage, and got repeated betrayals back in return.<P>I know that I spent hundreds of dollars on counseling, hours and hours of reading, attending Al-Anon meetings and talking with my Al-Anon sponsor. I talked with several priests, and spent hours of heart wrenching conversations with both my parents and my stbx's parents. I have been reading posts on this board and other boards for months and months, gaining insight from the advice and experience of others.<P>The bottom line is that a marriage takes 2. And not one person who intimately understands my circumstances advises me to stay even a minute longer. Most say it is long past due. <P>There are those who don't understand, and who judge me harshly.<P>I pray every day that God remove my character defects that lead me to judgement of other's decisions and actions. I can only know and judge my own.

BrambleRose,<P>I was speaking to a class of spouses that we categorize here on this site as "being in the fog". These are the spouses who seemed to wake up one day and decide that they don't want to be married anymore (not in just one day - I exaggerate a little ). Their marriages were not bad, they had problems - but often they are problems that every marriage has. These are the people who become wrapped up in their wants, their needs, their desires for whatever reasons.<P>One phrase that each of these spouses seems to use is "well I think we were really only meant to be friends - we never should have married". It is so funny when you think that your best friend should always be your spouse! But what these spouses are trying to do is re-color their lives so what they are now doing does not appear to be too selfish. That there really is some reason for their actions. Then you listen to them talk and in one sentence they say they are such good friends with their spouse, then you hear them say how they really feel - as if they could not care any less for this person they once loved. With friends like that, who needs enemies!<P>I just read a little about your circumstances in another post and you have some more serious problems in your marriage. It is up to you to decide if you have done your best to make things work - not for us to decide or anyone else to decide and judge you.<P>One quick personal example: In my wife's divorce complaint, she wrote that one of the reasons I was "extemely mentally cruel" was that when she got an "A" on her college paper and brought it home, I was too busy working to read it. Was I wrong? Should I have read it? Of course - But is it a reason to divorce? please.....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>Thanks for the clarification. I suspected that perhaps you might be referring to the "fog" crowd, but I haven't seen any of those foggy types around on MB. In fact, come to think of it, even on a divorce website that I frequent, those "fogged" types get pretty much ridiculed right off the site when they show up with their "in love but not in-love" lines.<P>I've spent most of my life in relationships that involved my constant giving, and the other person's constant taking. It's taken me a long time to learn what friendship and marriage really means.<P>I'm struggling to learn that I don't have to keep people in my life who abuse me in a relationship. 3 years ago, my parish priest said to me as I sobbed in his office one afternoon: "Marriage was meant to be spiritually uplifting and supportive. You aren't expected to remain in a marriage that spiritually degrades you. You are made in the image and likeness of Christ and you deserve to live a life of dignity." And its taken me 3 years to understand and to take to heart his advice....<P>And I find it appalling that most "foggers" seem to define friendship as: I do what pleases me, and you keep silent. You do what pleases me, and maybe I'll grace you with my presence...