"If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. <P>If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast,a but do not have love, I gain nothing. <P>Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. <P>But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. <P>When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. <P>And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; <P>and the GREATEST of these is LOVE."<P>---------------------------------<BR>For both wayward spouses and the spouses that were left - do the words above describe your marriages? Not just in your partners, but in yourselves? Everytime I read the above passage it really smacks me in the face - everytime I go to judge my wife, I look at these words and I know that I messed up as well.<P>For those spouses who are considering a divorce because you are "just not happy" or "in-love" anymore - do you see either of those phrases or words mentioned in the above passage? Would you be able to find some source that says to love someone you "have to be happy" all the time or even most of the time? Or that it is up to your partner to BRING you happiness?<P>For those spouses that are on the receiving end of a divorce (like me), do the words above say anything about "unless my spouse hurts me, then I can get mean and nasty - then love will die"?<P>Just some thoughts for the day....<P>God bless,<BR>Mike <P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Dear Mike,<P>Thanks for bringing clarity in my life. H said so many confusing things and swinging back and forth with his emotional roller coaster statements was getting me sick. <P>You have put it so plain and simple. I know these words come from the highest source in the universe and there is no disputing them. I have always known these words but forgot to apply them. <P>Again, sincere thanks for setting me straight.<P>Mahalo,<BR>L.<BR>

I think one problem with this passage, and so many passages that are included in marital vows, and so much of everything we are led to believe while we are growing up, is that it is based off the principle that love is unconditional, that it will endure everything, that you can get through anything if you have love. It's painted in people's minds to be this ethereal, magical, omnipresent thing, when in reality, it's pretty practical and can logically be broken down.<P>Should we continue to feel loved if the other person's behaviors don't "make" us feel loved? No. And vice versa.<BR>But, should we give that up because we no longer feel loved? No, I don't agree to that either. Why don't we feel loved? Why doesn't our spouse feel loved? Why does one and not the other? I think that's what we need to look into and understand what/why/how in order to make the changes to feel loved/give love again.<P>Part of the things that the Harleys and that Chapman (Five Languages of Love) teaches is that love is actually quite conditional, and that it's the behaviors that need to be examined. I think Steve Harley phrased love as something like a feeling that is elicited from a certain set of behaviors that makes you feel good. I won't quote him directly, but it was along those lines. It made sense. <P>The behaviors we perform are choices of ours. Whether unconscious or conscious, they are our choice. Once we make that choice to love, the other parts that contribute to a healthy loving relationship can begin. It could be a short road, or a long road, or under a lot of construction, but it's how we continue to make those choices along the way that matter.<P>Where we are on this board, unfortunately, is that one of us in that same relationship chose or is choosing to perhaps move against the idea of conditional love. That’s the difficulty we’re all trying to come over. You can't just make love happen! But you can, and it requires work. That work might feel effortless once you achieve the feeling again, or it might feel like the worst chore trying to achieve it. I wish marriages nowadays would recognize the effort that needs to go into sustaining love. Did we, ourselves realize it while we were in it? [Sigh] Probably not. I hope we're learning.<P>SoTired2000, You’re right. It is so easy to start to blame the other person. He/she didn’t do this/that. And if only they would’ve done more of the other, I’d be . . . And one of the hardest things to understand and to live by is that we alone are responsible for our actions. And those are what we can choose to change or not change. Those changes could possibly help revive a love that was “lost” or at the very least, I think what many of us are finding out, help us renew ourselves to make the next relationship better. <P>In a nutshell, we on the divorced/divorcing board, as bad as we may feel sometime, shouldn't get down on ourselves too much, because in reality, it wasn't our choice, it was theirs. I think if we can feel like we gave it our best effort, we tried to improve ourselves, all the Plan A-ing, and everything...We tried, and they still chose not to love, we still need to give ourselves a pat on the back and feel good about the choice we made. Making the effort can go a long way, even if you don't achieve your goals.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>For those spouses who are considering a divorce because you are "just not happy" or "in-love" anymore - do you see either of those phrases or words mentioned in the above passage? Would you be able to find some source that says to love someone you "have to be happy" all the time or even most of the time? Or that it is up to your partner to BRING you happiness?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I'm happiest when I am able to be patient with my family and friends, and when they show patience with me. I'm happy when people are kind to me, and when I'm able to return that kindness. Conversely, I get frustrated and unhappy with impatient and unkind people.<P>I'm also not happy when I'm around envious, boastful, arrogant, or rude people. Whenever anyone insists on having their own way, it tends to make me unhappy. The more time I spend with irritable, resentful people, the less happy I become (and the less likely I am to want to spend more time with them in the future).<P>Happiness and love are inextricably linked. Some might argure that you can never be truly happy without experiencing love. How, then, can you experience love without being happy?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Momentum:<BR><B> <BR>I'm happiest when I am able to be patient with my family and friends, and when they show patience with me. <P>Conversely, I get frustrated and unhappy with impatient and unkind people.<P>I'm also not happy when I'm around envious, boastful, arrogant, or rude people. Whenever anyone insists on having their own way, it tends to make me unhappy. The more time I spend with irritable, resentful people, the less happy I become (and the less likely I am to want to spend more time with them in the future).<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And how do you communicate that you're unhappy or frustrated? Do you walk away from it, stuff it, or avoid the sources? Or do you address it? Ask for change?<P>Being accountable for your behaviors includes what you do and what you don't do.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Que Sera (edited March 27, 2001).]

Mike,<P>I'm so glad you found this! I was going to put the "address" in for you on one of my posts, but to be honest, it's not easy finding a NEW testament in a Jewish home.<P>I know this is somewhat off topic, and I know you are trying to get people to evaluate themselves and their own actions in their marriages--were they really acting in Love? But one thing that I have been contemplating lately is the idea of maturity and how that relates to love. <P>In some of the first verses, note that the author (the apostle, Paul, I believe), writes: "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." WOW! Can you imagine a human being on this earth who understands the mysteries of the universe and has knowledge of God and has enough faith to remove mountains? Surely we would all consider a human being of that spiritual level to be VERY godly and SUPER spiritual--right? I know I would. And yet, if a person who was THAT enlightened did not have love, he or she is nothing! Is it possible that this is the exact reason why Moses was so severely chastised when he struck the rock rather than speaking to it? He really did understand more mysteries of the universe and have more knowledge of God than most humans ever dream of attaining. He really LITERALLY did have faith to move and remove mountains. Yet, when the time came to provide water for his people, God's chosen people, he did not have love. Instead, he was angry from their constant whining (hey, who can blame him?), and he hit the rock. <P>Now, I'm not saying that Moses was nothing, but I've certainly always wondered why God was so harsh with him when Moses had such great faith. And conversely, why was a man like David called, "The Apple of God's Eye"--his very name MEANS "Beloved"--when he was adulterous and raised his family in such an ungodly way? Why did God love HIM so? It seems to make no sense, except to think that maybe David had love--love for his people and love for God. Maybe David's very being was patient, kind, not envious, not boastful, not arrogant, not rude, not insisting on his own way, not irritable, not resentful, not rejoicing in wrongdoing but rejoicing in the truth. Maybe his very being resonated with bearing all things, believing the best, hoping, enduring, and NEVER, EVER ending. <P>Once again, in the ending verses the author writes (I'm paraphrasing here) that now we only see and understand things in part. Things that we think of as GREAT knowledge and understanding now will come to an end, when complete knowledge and understanding are revealed. The author uses the analogy of being a child versus being an adult. When we were children, we thought and spoke like a child, and we understood like a child--yet at the time, we thought we were pretty smart and thought we understood what was going on. Now that we are adults, we KNOW so much more. We can see what is going on, and we interpret as a mature adult. We have the advantage of years of experience, to help us understand things. Furthermore, WE HAVE PUT AWAY CHILDISH THINGS. <P>I'll speak entirely personally, but I think that when I first married, I thought of love in mostly a selfish way (what it would do for me, how he would make me feel, etc.), and I looked at marriage in a very childish way. I thought as a child, I saw it as a child, and I behaved as a child. Now, for me, the question is, have I matured? Am I able to see love and marriage from the advantage point of a mature adult, with all the benefits and more thorough knowledge that maturity affords? Or, in some places, do I still ACT like a child, even though I'm beginning to be able to think like an adult? If I have reached some level of maturity, have I put away the childish ways, or do I still sort of cling to them because their familiar and comfortable? If I'm clinging--I know I need to let go of those childish ways!<P>Well, as you can see, I could write a book, but I'm glad you brought up this topic. You're my favorite philosophizer! <P><BR>CJ<P> <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Momentum:<BR><B> <BR>Happiness and love are inextricably linked. Some might argure that you can never be truly happy without experiencing love. How, then, can you experience love without being happy?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No one lives very long without finding out how much of the responsibility for unhappiness lies at our own door.<BR><I>- Charles Field </I><P>If you agree with this quote, then I guess along your lines of thinking, the responsibility of love also lies at our own door?<P>My question for you is, how responsible do you feel you are for your own happiness and feelings of love or lack of those feelings? Or do you rely on other people providing that for you before you'll give it in return?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B> ...when they show patience with me...I'm happy when people are kind to me...Conversely, I get frustrated and unhappy with impatient and unkind people.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you cannot take responsibility for your own happiness in the actions you do or do not provide, then no, perhaps in your mind you will never experience love. I am sorry for that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Que Sera:<BR><B>I think one problem with this passage, and so many passages that are included in marital vows, and so much of everything we are led to believe while we are growing up, is that it is based off the principle that love is unconditional, that it will endure everything, that you can get through anything if you have love. It's painted in people's minds to be this ethereal, magical, omnipresent thing, when in reality, it's pretty practical and can logically be broken down.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am close to agreeing with you on this one, except if in the above statement we can replace the word love with "being in-love" which I believe are two totally different things. I can love someone without expecting anything in return (or at least try to), while being "in-love" requires loving feelings beging given back to you. Make sense? Take my wife right now - I love her - period. Do I think she loves me right now? Probably not. Am I "in-love" with her right now? No. Why? Because I am not getting any feelings back from her. I agree that many are raised to believe that marriage is some fantasy kind of love - the white picket fence, three kids, two dogs, no bills, no temptations, etc... I find it so facinating when I talk to couples who have been married 40, 50 even 70 years. You can quickly see that the reason for thier success was based on LOVE, not being "in love". Being "in-love" I believe is a constant state of flux. Why? Because being "in-love" requires both spouses to feel close to the same way at the same time. What is problematic about that though is that each of us as individuals are constantly changing as we grow older, but all at different speeds. One spouse may go through a period of euphoria about life, while the other may be totally depressed. Are they "in love" at that time? Probably not. Then why stay together? Because they love each other and they are mature enough to know that just as life changed once, it will change again. Just because they may not feel loving feelings today or this month or even this year, if they concentrate on "loving" their partner, those feelings of being "in-love" will return.<P>------------------------------------------------<P>Momentum,<P>Although my faith is Catholic based, one person I admire so much is Buddha. What I admire about Eastern religions and about Buddha are the beliefs that the world and its people are not made up of events and circumstances, they exist to each of us in how we perceive them. Someone can be stealing your car and you still could be happy (maybe because you are thankful you and your child weren't in the car). You can lose your spouse to death and still be happy (if you believe that they have risen and went to heaven). But on a much more practical level, you can be getting your butt handed to you and still be happy. Why? Maybe because you know that your boss cares enough about you and your work and he is only trying to get you motivated to do your best.<P>I am not saying that bad things don't happen - sometimes they do. But if you are constantly looking to your friends, family, possessions, etc... to make you happy, then I really believe you are looking in the wrong place. All you need to do is look within. If you have faith in your life, then when you look within, you will see God (as I do), but even if you are not religious, you still can look within to your soul and realize that you have TOTAL control over your feelings. If you can get to that state, you can't imagine the power you will feel. I'm not there, yet! That is for sure. But I am constantly trying to reach that point...<P>------------------------------------------------<P>FaithfulWife,<P>There is a gentleman on TV every now and then that when I sit down at night I always seem to catch. His name is Dr. Charles Stanley. I don't know of his religion, but I can tell you he has a pretty good grasp on the bible. He has a website called <A HREF="http://www.intouch.org." TARGET=_blank>www.intouch.org.</A> If you get a chance, take a visit. On the site he has archives of both audio and video from his sermons. They are only about 20 minutes long, but I can't tell you how much I have learned from them. Your post reminded me about something he spoke about - tradgedy in our lives and why some seem to have more than others. He refers to God's promise to only give us what we can handle. <P>Now stop and think about those around you... Think about those you know who have been put through *ell and back - Then think about those who seem to living the easy life. At least for me, the people I know who are living on cloud 9 all the time and have always had things handed to them don't seem to have the deepness that those who have had trouble and difficulty their who lives. I don't believe either one is better than the other. I just believe that God made us all different and we all live at different levels of understanding. The challenges He gives us all in life I believe are gauged against what He knows we can handle.<P>So for Moses and David I think God had different feelings for. I think He became frustrated with Moses often because He knew of Moses potential and when Moses did not live up to that potential, God was saddened. David on the other hand was just not "built" to face the same challenges as Moses. And the challenges that David did face were only what David could handle - The difference between he and Moses, was that David was able to live up to God's expectations more often.<P>I think.......... <P>Take for instance my friend who's husband just died two weeks ago. She has two little girls under the age of 5 and a little baby girl. My friend is one of the strongest women I have ever met. She just has a strong will and faith. And she has an absolutely fabulous family of caring brothers and sisters. I could easily think of 5 other women who if this happened to, they would probably be recked for the rest of their lives. But I truly believe my friend will face this challenge in her life strongly and courageously. That is just her way.<P>Waddya think???<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hi,<P>I think that love is more than a feeling. It starts out that way, but it is really an action word. Love in deed and truth are the true aspects of the word love. <P>For example, there are many that say they 'love God', but their lives reflect that:<P>1. They do not know God or his personality, attributes<BR> and qualaties.<BR>2. They do not have a relationship with God<BR>3. They do not respect God's principles<P>How strong is their statement that they 'love God'? Weak at best. For them it may be a programmed statement. <P>Sometimes in our lives, people also tell us they love us because of being programmed. They feel they have to say that, not that they are movtivate by deed and truth. That's where that I love you but not in love with you concept comes from. Love is not a confusing quality. You either love or don't. <P>Love is a word that is used loosely in this world. OPs and WSs use that word in a way that is vulgar to the faithful spouses. I was insulted when OW setup e-mail addresses of KEMlovesSA and SAlovesKEM, when her e-mails and voicemails kept repeating how much she loved him and he loved her. At the same time OP was saying that, WS said he really did not know OW's true personality & he did not know what she wanted from him. <P>A child loves their parent because of the feeling they get and give, as the child grows older they learn to expand that to what actions transpire between parent and child. Our children know who loves them and who does not. Parents on the other hand love their child unconditionally (as a rule) because it was an action (act of love) that created the child in the first place. E-mails, voicemails, phone calls do not by themselves produce a child, it requires action. Yet most A's are based on a lot of talk which are promises and big plans which often don't materialize. Then the WS and OPs make plans based on a bunch of words that may not hold water. <P>Those who are in A's pretend that there is a lot of active love between them but it is often limited to sneaking around and high peak physical sex that they create their history on. Hard to be real proud of that and leave a legacy to their offspring. "Dad was so great a person, because he slept around with many women." Is that what a WS/OP would want his/her children to remember them by?<P>What pure thought regarding this A. can they give to their offspring? OW in a phone call to WS said 'truth is pure'. Not sure what she meant by that because there was nothing pure about asking WS to come over so she could talk him into going back to her. They (OW/WS) think they are in love, put when put to the test there is no love. Eventually for one reason or another, one will leave the relationship. Reason: No loyalty, no faithfulness & No love. <P>Love is an enduring quality. I still love my H as the kind and gentle man he was and can be. I do not love his current actions. I honestly believe I have the right kind of love. One that sticks to the true meaning of love. The way God purposed it to be. It has been tested to it's limits, many of us have had our love tested that way. And it has endured. God's love was tested. God loved the world so much that he sent his Only Begotten Son..... that we might have hope. <P>True love and hope are God given qualities. I do not expect someone who has broken his commitment to God and not repented to know how to express those God given qualities properly as God designed them to be. <P>Based on that I know the 'love' in an A., will not endure. It is not up to me to make or break it. They have already done that to themselves. I have read too many of those in A and when they come back to reality, all have said the A was wrong. I have not seen one justification yet. There could be but the odds are already stacked against them.<P>I am thankful that God gave me what I asked for during this whole ordeal. A calm heart and a clear mind. <P>Just adding my 4 cents (probably 2 cents too long).<P>L.<P>

The word "love" is being used here in an awful lot of different ways.<P>The "feeling" of love is conditional, true enough, and it looks like that's what Harley is talking about when he talks about love being conditional.<P>It may be our partner's ability to evoke that <I>feeling</I> in us that leads us to contemplate marriage, but the kind of love our marriage vows refer to is the love we <I>choose</I>. That's the love Paul is talking about.<P>When God looks at us and sees all our rebellion and petty destructiveness, does he still love us?<P>Well, the Jewish Bible recounts an entire history of the Jewish people running away from God time and again. The Scriptures speak repeatedly of God's anger and pain as he sees this. Ezekiel has God comparing Israel's faithlessness with that of a wife committing adultery and prostituting herself. The same illustration appears in Hosea, as the prophet actually found himself <I>enacting</I> this drama in real life with his wife Gomer.<P>And yet, God always tried to bring his people back to himself, as Hosea bought his wife back from the slave market after she had gotten herself into so much trouble.<P>In the New Testament, Jesus wept over Jerusalem. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" After all their sins over the centuries, and after all that had been done to Jesus personally and all that he knew was still in store for him, his love was unshaken.<P>It is the self-sacrificial love of Jesus that is explicitly given as the New Testament model for love in marriage.<P>Unconditional love is giving top priority to your loved one's needs. Is this too unrealistic a goal? I don't think so.<P>What Harley and his associates recognize is that, unlike God, <I>we</I> have finite emotional resources. Perhaps we <I>can</I> love unconditionally, but if we drain our resources to meet our loved one's needs until we have nothing left, <I>no</I> one's interests will be served. Harley offers a method of preventing that from happening. It's the win-win way of loving.<P>But there are other ways of finding emotional resources. God can provide them, although he doesn't tend to force his aid on us and for some reason it's hard to access his resources without encountering mirrors at every turn.<P>Love sometimes must be tough. God is no doormat, and love shouldn't make us doormats either. We may not be able to live with our spouses. But that doesn't mean we can't still love them.<P>I for one refuse to stop loving my wife. My love isn't going to hurt her, since it demands nothing and since she is quite capable of refusing it. And while I already have experienced the pain my love for her has brought me, with God's help I have seen that I can bear it. What it would cost me to turn away from my love for my wife is another matter entirely. It would be like amputating and burying a vital piece of myself. I <I>will</I> not pay that price, and I don't believe God would give me a loan.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B> I am close to agreeing with you on this one, except if in the above statement we can replace the word love with "being in-love" which I believe are two totally different things. I can love someone without expecting anything in return (or at least try to), while being "in-love" requires loving feelings beging given back to you. Make sense?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ST2000,<P>Yes, that does make sense. I agree that you can choose to love unconditionally, without expecting anything in return. (Therefore love is unselfish.) And again, it's a choice. But on the receiving end, the receiver feels your love conditionally.<P>It is very much like what Orchid said that occurs between a parent and a child. (Again, these thoughts are reiterated through Chapman's work. He has the same version of the book geared towards children.) That we, as parents, choose to love our kids unconditionally. Look at all the ways they test you when they are at such a young age! But, it's the way we perceive their responses to us, and how we try to understand what conditions make them feel or not feel loved. A child given love under the wrong conditions for that child to feel love (depositing less or empty love units for that child, e.g. gift giving versus them really responding to admiration), grows up to feel obligated to love their parents -- loves them unconditionally, or perhaps grows up to really dislike or not love their parents. Adults are really not that different from children in how they feel loved.<P>Yes, I agree with everyone else here that unconditional love is a choice. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B>You can quickly see that the reason for thier success was based on LOVE, not being "in love". Being "in-love" I believe is a constant state of flux...Because they love each other and they are mature enough to know that just as life changed once, it will change again. Just because they may not feel loving feelings today or this month or even this year, if they concentrate on "loving" their partner, those feelings of being "in-love" will return.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ST2000, <P>Yes, I agree with you there too. That the choice to keep loving, whether you receive it conditionally or not, allows you to believe that things can change, that the feeling of love (the conditions) can come back. One key part in your statement is that this way of thinking might be more mature, might be something we grow into. Too often when one feels like they are "stuck" in a "bad/unhappy marriage", their belief is that things/people will never change, so why gone on the same way? They want out, so they escape. I'm unhappy, so the change I can choose to make is to leave. The problem with that is, those that leave often see that to stay, the change needs to come from the other person, and not from everyone involved.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomedePlume:<BR><B>Unconditional love is giving top priority to your loved one's needs. Is this too unrealistic a goal? I don't think so.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And no, I do not think the above is too unrealistic a goal.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B>What Harley and his associates recognize is that, unlike God, we have finite emotional resources. Perhaps we can love unconditionally, but if we drain our resources to meet our loved one's needs until we have nothing left, no one's interests will be served. Harley offers a method of preventing that from happening. It's the win-win way of loving. </B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think the above is right on. We do have finite emotional resources, so combine the two, unconditional and conditional, what do you get?<P>Quite possibly a lot of confusion if both people are speaking on different planes at the same time. I've got to a run, but maybe I'll come back to this. Still an interesting topic to me.<BR>-----------------------------------------<BR>Back now.<P>One last note, for the giver, to choose to love unconditionally, even despite the losses in the relationship (the other leaves, divorces), it's admirable, but a little sad, at the same time. Maybe it makes us feel more peaceful in our minds. Maybe it keeps us clinging to the past, or what could have been. Maybe it makes us feel like the better, forgiving person. (Forgiveness goes a long way in the healing process.) As long as that choice continues to be healthy for us, mentally and physically -- I think that's what we need to distinguish between -- then it's a fine choice.<P>I'll end with:<P>"Hope is a gift we give ourselves, and it remains when all else is gone."<BR><I>-Naomi Judd</I><p>[This message has been edited by Que Sera (edited March 28, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Que Sera:<BR><B>One last note, for the giver, to choose to love unconditionally, even despite the losses in the relationship (the other leaves, divorces), it's admirable, but a little sad, at the same time. Maybe it makes us feel more peaceful in our minds. Maybe it keeps us clinging to the past, or what could have been. Maybe it makes us feel like the better, forgiving person. (Forgiveness goes a long way in the healing process.) As long as that choice continues to be healthy for us, mentally and physically -- I think that's what we need to distinguish between -- then it's a fine choice.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What if I describe how I feel about my wife in the following way and what I will tell her: <P>Once we get divorced, I will still love her. I will still care about her as a person and I will most likely still always worry about her. Remain friends? I am not sure. Friendly treatment? Yes definitely. Will I want her to just call me up to "talk"? No. I will probably explain it to her as follows: xxxxx you are making a mistake, but its one I can not stop. I accept that. I will always love and care about you. Do I want to be friends? I don't think that can really happen. BUT I will assure you that if times in your life get tough and you need a friend to help, I'll be there for you - all you need to do is call. But please don't call just to talk like friends because that is not what we were meant to be. Know that you have hurt me more than anyone else in my life. I will recover one day. I have forgiven you for doing what you think is right - I will never accept it as the right thing, but I will accept it. I hope you someday find the happiness you are looking for...<P>------------------------------------<BR>I agree with you that if you are just holding on to love because you can't move on with your life, than that is bad. But if you hold on to love because it is YOUR choice to do so and it is based upon your beliefs - than I think you are one of the stronger people in this world.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>Once we get divorced, I will still love her. I will still care about her as a person and I will most likely still always worry about her.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ST2000 - <P>I haven't seen other threads of yours. Are you getting divorced for certain? There's no signs of reconcilation? I think you care about her. You care about her a great deal. You'll always care about her. Maybe you hope that you will still (unconditionally) love her always. I think that about my spouse too. <P>I'm new to this, and I'm learning a lot from everything I'm reading, these posts, the Harleys, etc. The first part of what you want to say to your spouse sounds supportive and caring, and that sounds fine.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B>Know that you have hurt me more than anyone else in my life. I will recover one day. I have forgiven you for doing what you think is right - I will never accept it as the right thing, but I will accept it. I hope you someday find the happiness you are looking for...<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>((ST2000)) Yes, you are very hurt.<P>But, this part I'm not so sure about. What do you think her reaction to "you've hurt me" might be? My natural feeling would be defensiveness. Are you familiar with her anger management style or even her personality type? That might be a clue into how she might receive this. And "what you think is right...I will never accept as...right." Hmmm. Now, we're getting into the who's right who's wrong thing. I don't know if that is a good move either.<P>Maybe something more general like, "I'm sorry that all of this is happening. I hurt inside. I truly want you to be happy. I hope you find your happiness." Something like this could sound less blaming. I'd write it out a few times and take out anything that might come across as criticism, you sounding better than her, etc.<P>Yes, I agree on the friends thing. You can't expect to be friends. You care for her, and you want the best for her, even sadly if in her mind she doesn't see that as being with you right now. But still , she has hurt you more than anyone. Friends don't hurt people. Perhaps, in your current line of thinking, despite all that, you will continue to love her forever. <P>I once thought that way too. But, then I realized, you know, there's a lot of things that bugged me about my spouse, little things that drove me crazy, his communication style, his anger management style. Do I think I could ever live with that again? No. Could I continue to love him if he continued to be like that and didn't change, didn't even see a need for change. That would be an easy choice -- no. The reality is, I think I'll always care about him. Do I think I'll always (unconditionally) love him? No. Sometimes, now, I flip between "wanting" to try to love him (in a way he can understand & feel it) and sometimes I see the same old reactions to situations from him and I think I really don't want to try -- way to much work. But, I usually flip back to wanting to love him, because I feel that's the better approach. It'll make me feel better as a person.<P>In a nutshell, I think letting her know you'll always care for her, that you'll support her in the future because you care, that's good.<P>Don't tell her you'll recover, get over her. Let her see that for herself. You only need to tell yourself that. I don't see any benefit in telling the WS that.<P>Okay, good luck. I have to run now. I'll try to post again if you have any responses.<p>[This message has been edited by Que Sera (edited March 29, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Que Sera:<BR><B>I once thought that way too. But, then I realized, you know, there's a lot of things that bugged me about my spouse, little things that drove me crazy, his communication style, his anger management style. Do I think I could ever live with that again? No. Could I continue to love him if he continued to be like that and didn't change, didn't even see a need for change. That would be an easy choice -- no. The reality is, I think I'll always care about him. Do I think I'll always (unconditionally) love him? No. Sometimes, now, I flip between "wanting" to try to love him (in a way he can understand & feel it) and sometimes I see the same old reactions to situations from him and I think I really don't want to try -- way to much work. But, I usually flip back to wanting to love him, because I feel that's the better approach. It'll make me feel better as a person.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but with the above paragraph you need to be careful here. It is so easy to fall into this line of thinking - I have been there! I think it is our mind trying to ease our pain by rationalizing that "I don't need or want them anyway". The fact is we fell in love with our spouses not because we didn't know of their faults, but more in-spite of their faults. Love is not blind to another's faults, rather it is seeing those faults and ACCEPTING those faults. There are no perfect matches out there - I mean perfect ones. We are all different people - we all come from different backgrounds with different beliefs - we have all been raised in different "tribes" To expect to marry someone who sees things and does things just like us, I don't think is possible. Plus I think differences are the "spice of life". Sure there were things about my wife that I did not like (bordering on hated) but I know that anyone new I find is going to have the same or other habits that I will not like. So for me to focus on my Wife's bad habits only helps me rationalize my feeling bad. If that helps some people than that is OK. For me it doesn't.<P>You are right - I still care deeply about my wife. I know I always will. That is who I am. I can honestly say that if any of my old girlfriends from the past should call in need of help - I would be there for them. So of course my feelings for my wife will go on. Any chance of reconciliation? For me - yes. According to her - no. I truly believe in the power of love and marriage. I believe that our problems were so minor in the grand scheme of things. But mostly I KNOW I NEEDED TO CHANGE and I was willing to change - to do whatever it took to make our relationship work. She just does not feel the same - she thinks of marriage like the "white picket fence all lovey dovey - walk in the roses stuff". Things got tough not only in our marriage but in our separate family lives as well. When the going got tough, I was ready to dig-in, unfortunately she feels that since life got tough, we weren't meant to be. The only thing that can combat her frame of mind is time - so she can see what else is out there and to experience life for herself. If after that time she "comes around", then maybe there is a chance. But that does not mean I am going to wait around for her. My social life will move on and if I find someone knew to give my heart to, my commitment will cease to my wife - it will now be to the new person in my life...<P>Mike<P>BTW: If you are interested in finding out about someone here on the site, there is a search button on the top of the main forum page. Click it and type in the person's screen name - then make sure you choose a long enough time frame to search (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=intro&default=34). Usually the first few times a person posts here, you will find out their whole story. Same for me...<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B> ...but with the above paragraph you need to be careful here. It is so easy to fall into this line of thinking - I have been there! I think it is our mind trying to ease our pain by rationalizing that "I don't need or want them anyway".</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ST2000 - <P>You are right. I flip to the not wanting to try because I see the pain in trying. But no pain, no gain, right?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B>The fact is we fell in love with our spouses not because we didn't know of their faults, but more in-spite of their faults. Love is not blind to another's faults, rather it is seeing those faults and ACCEPTING those faults.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know that one always knows the other's "faults" when you're falling in love. Yes, you might see them and be more accepting of them because you have love. I've been told that opposites attract, and it's those same traits that you found so attractive to begin with ("he's so sensitive") that you can find so annoying later on (when you argue the same can apply -- "he's so sensitive"). When does that change happen? Probably when you drop out of the flighty versions of love and come down to earth. How did one guy put it? When you come down to reality where the toilet seats are always up and there's hair left on the sink.<P>I also don't think that all of a person's "faults" are immediately apparent. New ones come and go as the relationship changes. E.g. After you become parents. Who knew how you'd act as a parent before you became one? Probably neither one of you.<P>But, in general, yes, I agree that if you have love, you're more accepting of all faults, new ones, old ones that weren't apparent before, etc. I would take that a step further to say, if you have love, and one of those faults really do bug you, rather than "accepting" it, you should couple that with good communication/anger management skills to solve why it's bugging you/try to come to some agreement on it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>To expect to marry someone who sees things and does things just like us, I don't think is possible.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. I didn't mean to imply that I thought otherwise. I think between me and my spouse, it really boils down to a lot of unresolved conflict. Thus, the flip back to wanting to avoid, seeing a lot of work and pain in trying to resolve or even identify some of those issues.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So for me to focus on my Wife's bad habits only helps me rationalize my feeling bad.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right. We shouldn't focus on the negative. It's tough not too sometimes. Have you ever heard that it takes something like 10-20 (some big number in comparison) positive statements to a child (& probably adults too) to make up for 1 negative. Some weird natural psychological phenomena that the hurt affects a person that much more than the good stuff. I wonder why that is?<P>I hope your wife comes around. From your id, it sounds like you've been on this board for some time. (I'll try your search when I have more time.) Sometimes it takes a little reality to sink in before they start to come around, I suppose. That's what I've read anyways. Keep the faith. I will keep the faith for you too. Time can be a good thing. <P>I do hope for reciprocated love for you again, from whoever that may be. But, I wonder, until everything is formal, legal, whatever, maybe you should avoid "finding" yourself in another relationship? That's what I've always pictured for myself. Setting those boundaries. I suppose in respect to my spouse. Ok, I don't know why really. But, I do know I want to feel loved. Maybe because I know that I think I don't want to jump too soon, for the wrong reasons.<P>And thank you for helping me to think more positively about my spouse with some of your comments. Good luck.<p>[This message has been edited by Que Sera (edited March 29, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I once thought that way too. But, then I realized, you know, there's a lot of things that bugged me about my spouse, little things that drove me crazy, his communication style, his anger management style. Do I think I could ever live with that again? No. Could I continue to love him if he continued to be like that and didn't change, didn't even see a need for change. That would be an easy choice -- no. The reality is, I think I'll always care about him. Do I think I'll always (unconditionally) love him? No. Sometimes, now, I flip between "wanting" to try to love him (in a way he can understand & feel it) and sometimes I see the same old reactions to situations from him and I think I really don't want to try -- way to much work. But, I usually flip back to wanting to love him, because I feel that's the better approach. It'll make me feel better as a person.<BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope you two don't mind, but I wanted to chime in about 8 cents worth on this one. <P>You see, my H and I are about as exact, polar opposite as two people can be: using the Myers-Brigs personality type test, he is an ESTJ (an Extroverted, Sensing, Thinking, Judger) and I am in INFP (an Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiver). These are just our "natural" personality types. He is very, very tall and built like a basketball player; I am very, very short and built like a truck (haha). He is very factual and analytical; I am very spiritual and "touchy feely". So, when I look at your thoughts about communication style and anger management style and not being able to live with it any longer because your spouse wouldn't "change", I feel like I need to take exception and refer to my thoughts about maturity and love.<P>I believe that the things you brought up--the habits that drive you nuts, the communication style, the anger management style, and others--are the things that can eventually drive a wedge between people, yet I must also say that I do not really think that those things are justification for leaving a marriage, ending a marriage or saying, "Well, I don't love you anymore." These things are exactly the faults that I think we are called to love our spouses IN SPITE OF. These things are exactly the test of whether it is a mature love or an "in love", because mature love is ACTING in a loving way because of a vow you made, whether you feel like it or not. <P>Now, the way my H thinks and analyzes and categorized EVERYTHING drives me absolutely bonkers (mainly because I don't), but to expect him to change to my way of processing things is not realistic. This is the way that God created him, and this is the personality type that God gave him; thus, I prefer to look at it as "What do I need to learn from the way he does things (even though it drives me crazy)? What can I learn from him that will make me a better person?" What I DO expect from him is that he take the time to understand the way the I process things, to realize that we are different, and to show some acceptance of the fact that since we are different our points of view will NOT be the same. I am trying to learn and be understanding of the differences we have (and how our differences affect our communication, etc.), and I expect him to show the same kind of consideration. HOWEVER, I can not expect him to become me or to do things "my way" or to "see the need for change", because he is exactly right FOR HIM. <P>I can not expect him to become introverted, even though as an extrovert he takes all his problems and talks about them out loud, and them starts to shape them externally until he understands them--and this drives me nuts because I internalize everything, mull it around, figure out what happened, figure out what to do AND THEN externalize it. I can not expect him to start suddenly evaluating everything based on how he feels about it (like I do), and he can not expect me to start suddenly evaluating everything based on the facts and analytical logic (like he does). I can not expect him to use his intuition (he has none), and I can not explain to him sometimes that I AM using my intuition and there isn't a "fact" to support my "feeling." BUT we can and do expect each other to be considerate of the other person and do our best to learn from the ways we are different. <P>In summary, I think we would be smartest and wisest if we chose life partners and spouses who were close to or compatible to us in personality type, communication styles, and anger management styles; however, we are young and foolish when we marry and we commit ourselves to one person before we know all the little kinks and quirks about them. I think our calling is to love them IN SPITE OF and perhaps because of the ways that they are different from us. And I think the highest calling of all is to be absolutely driven crazy by the style differences of your spouse, and yet honor your commitment anyway with the goal of becoming a better, wiser, more loving YOU because you have learned things from your spouse's difference. <P>In his original post, Mike was discussing the fact that nowhere in that particular "quote" did it say that love was a feeling, that you should be "in love" before you act in a loving way,or that love would make you feel "happy." Yet time and time again, that is the reason that people give for leaving their marital commitments,"I'm not happy anymore" "I'm not in love with you anymore". I think the author of I Corinthians (and Mike) was trying to point out that love is SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. Mature love is acting when you don't feel like it, and when there's no "reason" for it, BECAUSE YOU MADE THE COMMITMENT. <P>Think of the love between a parent and a child: how often does the parent love the child because the child is acting in a way that deserves love? Ha! Children can be energetic, challenging, disrespectful, mean, rude, undisciplined little whirlwinds--and yet their parents love them because they are committed to being their parent. Do the children "make the parents happy"? Definitely not all the time--and probably more often than not, no--the children's behavior in and of itself does not make the parents feel "happy". Do the parents feel that first rush of pride and love (being "in love") on the day of the child's birth for as long as the child is alive? Definitely no! Sometimes you may feel that rush of pride and love, but on a day-to-day basis, no. But think about it--do we find it appropriate to give up being a child's parent because they "don't make us feel happy" or because we don't feel that rush of pride that we did on the day they were born? Is it acceptable in society to end our parental commitment because the child is NOT acting in a way that deserves love (how about Eric Harris' and Dylan Klebold's parents?)? Then why oh WHY is it so easy and acceptable to just give up on being married? <P>The commitment between a husband and a wife should be SO MUCH STRONGER than the commitment and bond between a parent and child. We are called to love our spouse when we are not able to love them anymore. We are supposed to learn life lessons from them--and sometimes those life lessons cut off a corner in order to make us "well rounded." Don't get me wrong: I don't think we are supposed to be doormats or allow ourselves to be abused because of our marriage vows; I do NOT think that God wants us to just put up with abuse and harm because "he's my husband" or "she's my wife". But... those little things that a spouse does that drive you crazy are, in a way, part of the test of REAL LOVE. The older I get, and the more I learn, the more I see that certain people are in my life for a reason, and it is generally because I need to learn some things from that person in order to become the woman and wife that God intended for me to be.<P>Selah.<P><BR>CJ<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

FaithfulWife,<P>I so wish there was a way for my wife to sit down and talk<BR>with you and a few others from this site. I so often said many of these things to her - but to her I was only preaching (she has a HUGE authority problem - stemming from her relationship with her father) - and anything I said would only come across negatively to her. And while her parents claim to be these spiritual and faithful people, I have seen how 2-faced they can be (not that I ever expected them to take "my side" in all of this, but to at least ask for my opinions on what was going on would have been nice.)<P>Unfortunately she is young and not just in age. Before my wife I dated one other girl very seriously. But, we were in college and she also saw the "greener grass". She eventually came around after dumping me, but I was already engaged to my wife at that time.<P>I just hope that my wife is also using this time to learn about herself and not just to keep blaming me for everything and continuing to run away... Time will tell...<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>Any day that you can arrange for me to talk to your wife, I definitely will--the trick will be arranging it!<P>I have a challenging thought for you. I've heard you say, a couple of times, that your wife thinks love should be all "rosey-posey" and effortless, and that she does not like to be preached at. I'm paraphrasing, of course. Anyway, she sounds a lot like me! Are you sure you want the two of us to talk--we might end up agreeing with each other (wink, wink) <P>May I take a stab at something? It sounds to me like she is still quite young, if not chronologically, then emotionally. Remember how I said that I am beginning to see that people are in my life for a reason--and it is usually because I am supposed to learn something from them? Well, I wonder what you are supposed to learn from her? I can honestly say that just a few years ago, I was probably not too far from where your wife is now. As a child I had been physically abused by both of my parents, and then preached at by them in the name of Christianity. As you might imagine, I COULD NOT justify the behavior that Christianity taught as a guideline, and the behavior that I had done to me. But, as one consequence, I also hate to be "preached at" because I re-feel somewhat like the days when I was a child. My definition of "preached at" and someone else's definition of "preached at" are probably QUITE different, yet the person who chooses to live with me has to understand my definition in order to avoid constantly hurting me. Tall order, huh? <P>That's why I'm challenging you. Be honest with yourself--is it possible that you spoke to her in such a way that she felt it was "preachy" and you ARGUED with her that you were NOT being preachy (or something close to that)? I will share what this was like for me. My husband is 6'3" tall and I am 4'10" tall, so he is physically intimating in size to me. He used to start speaking to me, raise his volume just a little bit, move in very close to me (and it seemed like he was towering over me), and say in his big, firm, booming voice, "I am NOT being closed minded. You just won't listen!" In reality there was probably no danger or no need to feel overpowered, but I TOTALLY did feel that way--and most of that was like a flashback to what went on when I was a small child and my parents were "big". <P>Sooooo...when you get going on your soapbox, no matter how right you may be, and no matter how much you may feel like you're being open minded and understanding, she is still your wife. If she feels "preached at" or intimidated, then as her husband, you are obligated to find out what would NOT make her feel "preached at" so she can feel safe. I know that doesn't seem fair, but you picked her as your wife, and she does deserve to feel safe.<P>It took in the neighborhood of twelve years, but my husband has finally learned to stay a step or two away from me, to use a soft and gentle voice, and if I start to feel intimidated (even if it's in an argument or a louder discussion), to just back off and stop. If I tell him I don't feel safe, he doesn't give me all the facts of why I actually AM safe (which is denying how I feel), he says, "I'm sorry that you feel bad. You don't deserve to feel that way. What can I do to make you feel better?" (which is acknowledging how I feel). Does this make any sense to you?<P>If I were to talk to your wife today, the first thing I would do is listen, and listen, and listen to her and to her side--and I would acknowledge her feelings. Now that doesn't mean that I would AGREE with what she says, just listen and affirm that she does feel that way. Then, I could try to talk to her about what love is and isn't. I'll bet you that love would be more "rosey-posey" for her if she could understand some of the MB principals and stuff. <P>I know, in my experience, I have been very, very slowly teaching my husband about personality types, discussing our differences, talking about LBs and ENs, and using the MB guidelines of how to recover from an affair. It's slow going, but day-by-day the love is growing and I am SURE it could grow for her too. The "rosey-posey" periods would gradually get more and more frequent and the neutral or bad periods would gradually grow less and less frequent.<P>Send me an email if you can arrange a "meeting": cindy_wolfe@blm.gov<P>Mike, I wanted to tell you how much I have enjoyed this thread. It has really made me think, and I have really appreciated it. So, pat yourself on the back for me!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Firstly, let me give a little history for those of you on this thread. I don't think I ever did that so, it might clear up my position. I'll be vague because I think my spouse might lurk about here now and then.<P>My husband left me. He's the one giving me the same old "I don't love you - don't think I ever did" speech that everyone else here gets. We have kids. His parents are divorced and remarried. To him, multi-parental families are completey normal and can work out for everyone involved, even the children. The rest of his aunts & uncles are also either divorced or not married. My parents have been married, oh probably 30 some years, and I've seen them work through some not so happy times. In fact, almost none of my relatives are divorced and almost all have had "tough times" and got through them. I would say I value marriage and the commitment to marriage a lot more than he does, purely based on how we grew up. He seems to be more of the type, if you're not happy, it must be the marriage, so leave. You're the one who matters. Go find your happiness elsewhere.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B> You see, my H and I are about as exact, polar opposite as two people can be: using the Myers-Brigs personality type test, ...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>FW-<BR>Yes, I've read about personality types too, in a book by Barron-Tieger (sp?) which shed some lights. I agree to the underlying personality types that individuals have and along w/ the behavioral psychology that the Harleys teach that the change in how you look at things, react to things, understand things, etc. can only come from you. And that yes, if you reach that goal of understanding how the other personality type receives & digests info, and change your behaviors to try to communicate in that manner, you can grow a lot as a person, etc. etc. I agree to all that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I believe that the things you brought up--the habits that drive you nuts, the communication style, the anger management style, and others--are the things that can eventually drive a wedge between people, yet I must also say that I do not really think that those things are justification for leaving a marriage, ending a marriage or saying, "Well, I don't love you anymore." These things are exactly the faults that I think we are called to love our spouses IN SPITE OF. These things are exactly the test of whether it is a mature love or an "in love", because mature love is ACTING in a loving way because of a vow you made, whether you feel like it or not.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right. It is a test. We'll see if I pass. I would say that for the majority of our marriage, I have not "felt loved," yet, I still tried to hang in there and act in loving ways. Albeit, it wasn't 100% of the time and frustrations, unresolved conflict, it all built up, and yes, my anger management style was a big LB. Now that we are separated, I am very challenged with thoughts of whether or not I love him unconditionally. I try to flip back to the positive more often than not, but I'm getting to the point where a lot of resentment is starting to settle in and make a comfy home. That's the challenge. I'm trying to make my changes. Why should I be the only one changing??<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>What I DO expect from him is that he take the time to understand the way I process things, to realize that we are different, and to show some acceptance of the fact that since we are different our points of view will NOT be the same...and I expect him to show the same kind of consideration. HOWEVER, I can not expect him to become me or to do things "my way" or to "see the need for change", because he is exactly right FOR HIM.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In no way, am I suggesting that couples should think alike nor do I think my husband should do things "my way."<P>I disagree with your last statement -- not in terms of personality types though. When I wrote that quote you took I was thinking more along the lines of anger management. I think if someone in the partnership is not comfortable with the other's anger management style, the ownership is on that person to "see the need for change." The other spouse might communicate that, but if the owner is perfectly comfortable with their anger management style and doesn't see a need for change, then what? You can't really do anything about that. You cannot change another person. You can only change yourself, right? Okay, great. So, I'm making changes to understand my anger management style and find the tools to get a grip on it. And what it boils down to is that I'm doing that for myself. It might be a consequence that my spouse appreciates it, but I'm really doing it for myself because I want to be that better person in the long run, regardless of what happens between me and my spouse. Now, back to my better half, again, let's say he doesn't see a need to change his a.m. style. Sure, I could change my attitude towards my spouse. But I'm sorry. Our separation is giving me lots of cause to think, and the more I think about it, if he won't even recognize that his anger management style makes me uncomfortable, the reality of it is, no I will not want to continue to work on things with him. If your anger management style and/or communication styles are hurtful to the other spouse, and if you care about the other spouse, you'd try to change that, right? Well, I guess I wouldn't feel very cared for if he didn't see a need for change there, and subsequently not very loved. But, hey, that would support his current line of thinking anyways, wouldn't it? It's that expectation of showing the same type of consideration. We'll see if he'll even see a need to meet it or not. Or even make the change purely for himself (which I would love). Currently, I have my doubts. If his anger management style is "exactly right for him" well, fine, he can live with that. I can't. <P>One thing I think we both (he and I) need to understand is that anger the feeling is separate from the actions that results. It's good to feel angry. It's natural. But, it's the expressing of it that can be hurtful to others. That's our biggest LB. Again, I said, I'm trying to work on it from my end, thus, I guess I'm trying to love him -- but it's awfully challenging. In a nutshell, I think I have loved him for a long time "in spite of" my discomfort level w/ his a.m. style. And, likewise from his end (although he'd contest he never loved me). Okay, so he's put up with me for a long time "in spite of." Neither one of us could come back as the same person if our marriage has any hopes of continuing, much less growing.<P>Right now, I think he thinks he wants to change. (However, in other ways, not addressing his anger management.) But, actions speak louder than words. Of course, I'll see things a certain way from my end, but to me, other than physically being on his own, from how he's behaving, it doesn't look like he's really changed all that much. I don't know if he's even really addressing what he originally left our home to address.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>And I think the highest calling of all is to be absolutely driven crazy by the style differences of your spouse, and yet honor your commitment anyway with the goal of becoming a better, wiser, more loving YOU because you have learned things from your spouse's difference.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm still trying. I'm trying to learn something from his differences. Right now, I don't know if anything I've learned is doing much for me because I still feel "bugged" by a lot of his differences. Could be the resentment thing in the way, but, it's tougher when your spouse doesn't share your goals with you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Mature love is acting when you don't feel like it, and when there's no "reason" for it, BECAUSE YOU MADE THE COMMITMENT.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's what I was taught by my family. The commitment means more to me than my husband. My commitment is what is being challenged by the pain and sometimes hopelessness of this all. I'm also very logical. And logically, I keep thinking, I can't be the only one to change if this is going to work. But, again, we don't share the same goals. He doesn't want to stay married to me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Think of the love between a parent and a child: how often does the parent love the child because the child is acting in a way that deserves love?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think I agreed w/ Orchid on this one. Parental love is unconditional.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> <BR>The commitment between a husband and a wife should be SO MUCH STRONGER than the commitment and bond between a parent and child. We are called to love our spouse when we are not able to love them anymore.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that's where the fine line of unconditional and conditional love meet and how you do or don't handle that combination. Those of us that feel like we are more "committed" will hang onto unconditional love longer than those who are not. Likewise, we might be able to put up with less of the conditions exisiting because we can hang onto that unconditional sense of love -- (this can be our downfall too in that it can cause us not to seek out whether or not love is being truly felt by either one of you.) But the "nots" (such as my husband) have a point too. A person cannot live by unconditional love alone. It's got to be balanced with the conditions that make another feel your love. If a person goes for years without feeling love, and subsequently happiness, the reality is, he/she will want out eventually, or if the commitment is so strong, will feel doomed to an unhappy life. The ideal combination is that the commitment is so strong (or the unconditional love is strong enough) for both of you that you'll want to fix what's making you both feel unloved. I think the unconditional love is what keeps you hanging in there through the tough times, and the conditional love is what sustains happiness, keeps the marriage "alive" and is what launches you into the romantic love that the Harleys talk about achieving.<P>For me, both are being challenged.<p>[This message has been edited by Que Sera (edited March 30, 2001).]

FaithfulWife,<P>Where your husband's size may tend to make him seem overbearing, I get it through my ability to debate/argue. That is one of my biggest problems and one that I constantly try to work on - I love learning, pure and simple. I was inspired by my father, his big thing was "Mike you should learn to love to read". I am glad I took his advice to heart for now not only am I able to sit down and read a book on some entirely new subject, I can honestly put what I read into action. But what I find myself doing sometimes is using the knowledge I have aquired to help "win" arguments. It has taken me a long time to realize that no-one really ever "wins" and argument, because even if you are correct in what you are debating, the other person will soon feel stupid and probably not be happy with you anyway. So, I always try to live up to "the best argument is one avoided". In any case, I know this always intimidated my wife. EVEN THOUGH, I complimented her every chance I got.<P>My wife has extremely low self-esteem. There are a few factors that go into it: a sexual abuse incident that she still has never "faced", a dictator type of a father who my wife fears will "stop loving her" if she ever messes up. My sister is almost finished her doctorate in psychology and a few weeks back we had a discussion about my marriage. As I was explaining the dynamics that went into my relationship with my wife and her father, my sister picked up on something that I never thought of. When I was in the middle of couseling with my wife, the counselor met with me alone. During that meeting he told me that I had some kind of competition going with her father, for her attention. After that meeting I really looked hard and believed he was right, but what I could not understand was that I NEVER wanted to be like her father. He is a good man in the community, but I don't agree with how he runs his family (and I mean he "runs" his family). Well when I spoke to my sister, she said that maybe my wife was putting me in competition with her father for a couple reasons: First while she was too afraid to disagree with his wishes, I was free to do so on her behalf. So in other words, she was acting out through me. The second reason deals with her pent-up anger (which she has A LOT of) - If I became her father to her, then she was free to take out all the anger she had at him, on me without fear of me not loving her (because I was her husband and I had to love her). Right before she left, at the top of her lungs, she yelled "right now I see my father's head on your shoulders and hear his voice coming out of your mouth. I have the two of you so inter-raveled that I don't know who I am mad at or why!!".<P>Her decision to leave I see know was because she was on the verge of a breakdown - because we were having problems, because of financial stresses, because I know she was having an emotional affair and the guilt was eating her up, and because I believe her past was beginning to surface in her mind. What really gets me angry though, is that she said nothing to her dad about any of this - instead it was all my fault. And what is worse is that he made it unbelievably easy for her to "walk" - he gave her a new car, he paid for her to go to Florida for vacation, he gave her all the money she needed. I try so hard not to believe this, but I really think deep down he was a little happy that she was leaving me, since now he had his little girl to take care of again.<BR>Why do I say that? Just a few examples: Her father told her that I was selfish for starting my own business even though he did the exact same thing. Her father told her that if she wanted to get a divorce, do it fast and get it over with. He was right there to get her a lawyer as soon as she asked (he is a lawyer himself). He never once asked to sit down with me to talk about what was going on. I on the other hand approached both he and her mother - their replies "we are staying out of it, it is up to both of you". Then I would hear things relayed to me by my wife about what they were saying to her.<P>And on top of it all, I fear the person who may have sexually assaulted her when she was young, was an authority figure. <P>Listen, I knew my wife was a "wounded soul" when we married. But I loved her then, just as I loved her now. I accepted that she had a troubled past, even if she could never admit it.<P>Now I could spend sometime here going through "my faults" in the marriage, but we may be here for a few hours!!!!! I am by far no angel! The difference, as I see it, is that I admit I messed up, I told her I wanted to change and that I would change - no ifs, ands, or buts. Instead she felt that getting away from me was the answer. And blaming me for everything while not taking one ounce of responsibility for our marriage.<P>It is sad, so sad. I know that a big part of it is her immaturity (I would never say that to her though!). All I wanted from her, was for her to really try one more time - to "let me back in", to trust me again. But if she did that, then she would have to re-evaluate what she was doing with the "other guy" and then it may just be that what she was doing was "wrong".<P>So what am I supposed to learn from my wife? To see what happens when you are afraid to look at what is inside of you - to be afraid to admit your faults. To learn to temper knowledge with understanding - sometimes realizing it is better to listen, than to be "right" all the time. To sit and wait on the Lord (one of the biggies!) - I am the type of person who loves quick fixes "fix it and let's move on". This past year has blessed me with a level of patience I have never had before. I am content (most of the time ) to sit back and let God direct my life. There is a great road sign in front of a local church "If you have God as your co-pilot, switch seats!" I have learned to stop and look for those among us who may be "hurting" to offer some comfort - for no reason whatsoever. To realize that financial pressures are not worth getting upset about - take care of them, sure - get sick over them, no way.<P>But above all, I have really learned to sit back and enjoy life - driving to and from work. Cleaning the house. Going out with friends. Visiting family. I have stopped planning my life and begun living it! I'm broke and I'm single and lonely, but I still try to enjoy each day.<P>So FaithfulWife, I have and will continue to learn from this as you suggest. Like I have said before, I look at this past year as a "gift" from God. How many men learn to slow down and enjoy life at age 30? It seems to take most until they are in their 60's. I only wish I did not have to lose my wife for this to have happened.<P>But God's will be done.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.