Hi ST2000,<P>Here is part of your post to LibraGirl. Reading it was an eye opener. My H is just like what you described. His BIL said the same thing earlier this week. Now my questions are how to handle someone in this situation. Is it salvagable?<P> ***********************<P>Here is your post:<P>When I met privately with my counselor without my W, he told me that what she is going through (and what you are going through) is a very common occurrence. But he said that it usually does not come to light until later in marriage (10 to 15 years later). We were married for 3 years when this all came to the surface. Did we have problems before that? Sure. Were they huge problems? No - nothing drastic or serious. The counselor put it to me this way: He asked me if I had ever lived by myself alone. I said yes. He asked me what it was like. I said "it was OK, I mean I like being by myself, but there are a lot of responsibilities and bills and such". Then he asked me to try and imagine what it would be like if I never had the chance to live alone. What would I imagine. I said "it would probably appear to be great! I would be focusing on all the positives of living alone - no worries".<P>He said "exactly! That is what your wife is doing". In his opinion she had become dissillusioned by our marriage. Things had gotten tough, so she began to look for reasons why it was a mistake to be married.<P>From what he told me, I have expanded it a little further. She began to rationalize our entire relationship - ALL the way back to the beginning. She said we should have just been friends. She said she did not want to get married. She said that she didn't think she ever loved me. That there were no good times in our relationship. That I needed someone better than her - She could not give me what I needed.<P>You know what - I began to believe her - I really did. That is up until about 6 months after she moved out. Then the memories began to come back - the good times - the times we were in love. You see, she was focusing on the bad because that is what she needed to do, to convince herself that a divorce was the ONLY solution. She did it so well that she had me doubting myself.<P>Now I see it for what it is, and I am sorry if this sounds blunt but, she was/is only being selfish. You may have heard these words spoken to you (or you will soon enough) "the grass is not greener on the other side". But you know what, most people don't listen to those words - unfortunately they must experience them. You too sound like your world is all about what "you want" and what will make "you happy". I don't know, maybe we are just that different - Living to me is more than just making myself happy - It is caring about other people - family, friends and most of all my wife.<P>Almost everything I have done in our marriage was done to make her happy. But what I realized is what was previously written here "you have to make yourself happy". But that does not mean you need material items or to be selfish. It means that happiness comes from within. Happiness can occur in any situation. People who are starving poor can still be happy. As much pain as I have gone through since my wife left, I am still very much happy. I think until people figure out that what they focus on is what makes them happy or sad, they are destined to keep "looking" for other people/things to MAKE them happy.<P>But like my wife, I don't think anything will save your marriage. That is until you have a change of heart. I don't mean "until you fall in-love with your husband again", I mean until you believe that your marriage DOES have a chance to be saved, BUT it will take some hard work on both of your parts. Until you want your marriage to work, nothing you say or do will change it. You must want it. Whether you can or not is up to you.<P>God gave us marriage to share, to give, to grow in each other, to love. No where did He ever say it would be easy, or it would be the "white picket fence" feelings every day. To me, marriage is a test. A test of true love. A test that both spouses continually take day-in and day-out. There is no room whatsoever in a marriage for selfish thoughts and/or desires. Bare with me as I quote something for you:<P>[actually I was going put it here, but I think it deserves its own post - I will post it under "what is love?" - take a read]<P><BR> **************************<P>Here are my questions:<P>1. Can you please provide that quote you were referring to in the last sentence? I could not locate it. <P>2. Does the WS ever come out of that feeling they need to be<BR>on their own and if yes, about when? H has been on his own for 3 months. In that time, he has gone further in debt and it is not paying his bills. Due to community property laws in CA, I am stuck paying them so as not to ruin my credit. I also cover all his insurances (med/dental/vision/auto). My financial resources are not endless. He is running me dry. <P>3. Why can't they learn this be on your own feeling taking care of the family? This is a constant battle for me. I would love if someone would take care of me and I did not have to worry everyday and month if everything was being taken care of (not just the financial piece, but everything). <P>H lives in "I don't know" land & "You don't understand" township. He is not able to make a commitment to either OW or his family. I understand that they need to like themselves, but this is wearing me and our family,friends, etc. all out. It seems like WS likes to take me to my limits then backs out and says that I stress him out. <P>Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. <P>Mahalo,<BR>L.

Dear ST2000,<P>I found that post this morning and it was one that I had actually read and posted on. My memory is going. Anyway, I read your comments again and yes they are just what my H needs to read. I have also sent him a copy of your comments on that post. Thanks for that. <P>I still have the questions listed above. If you or others could please indulge me and provide your comments, it would be greatly appreciated. <P>I can from a very close and loving family. My sister has chosen to completely ignore my family (parents and I) for over 10+ years. This is her choice but I know that this is not how she was raised. Her issues are personal and appear to be similar to H's. Yet, my sister did not have the reasons that are apparent in your wife's case nor as in my H's case. Her's could be chemical dependancy issues (my parents have been dealing with that and it has broken their spirit and their hearts). <P>Yet, I feel there may be hope for my H but it is getting harder and harder for me to hold on. H has always fought with any ideas irregardless of whether he knew it was good for him or not. He is still fighting and can't explain why. Now my concentration is on my family. I want to help H but don't really know how. I have exhausted every means and idea available. I have stepped back and am currently watching him fall into despair with him resisting all help. <P>H even told his dad that he knew he needs help but will not go and get it for himself. Is that a cry for help or not? How bad must it get before something needs to be done? <P>These are questions that run through my mind almost every hour. It is tormenting my soul. <P>Any assistance, words of wisdom, kick in the proverbial pants is appreciated. I feel as if I am at my wits end. <P>Thanks for listening,<BR>L.

You asked, how bad does it have to get before something needs to be done??<P>Your H has to hit a bottom. For every individual, that bottom is different. And what's worse, there's no way of knowing where someone's bottom is.<P>Until he hits a bottom and *chooses* to ask for help with his problems - AND changes what he is doing - nothing will change. And there is NOTHING to be done, except take care of yourself.<P>It's up for you to decide how you can best care for yourself - be that a Plan A, Plan B, separation, divorce, or whatever.<P>If he asks you for help, then by all means, give it if that's what you want to do. But forcing help on him won't change or fix anything.<P>I know this from my own long bitter experience.<P>((hugs)) BR <P>

I'm afraid BrambleRose is right. And it is very frustrating when the laws and the courts actually work against a person's having to face reality. In your case, community property laws force <I>you</I> to experience the consequences for your husband's choices, and thus he has no incentive to get his act together.<P>In my wife's case, she is living rent-free with her mother (who could really use the rent), with no responsibilities while she sucks in spousal support. Meanwhile, I worry about losing my house.<P>These wayward spouses have no motivation to seek help except for the slow internal grind of guilt and self-loathing.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>Here are my questions:<P>2. Does the WS ever come out of that feeling they need to be<BR>on their own and if yes, about when? H has been on his own for 3 months. In that time, he has gone further in debt and it is not paying his bills. Due to community property laws in CA, I am stuck paying them so as not to ruin my credit. I also cover all his insurances (med/dental/vision/auto). My financial resources are not endless. He is running me dry. <P>3. Why can't they learn this be on your own feeling taking care of the family? This is a constant battle for me. I would love if someone would take care of me and I did not have to worry everyday and month if everything was being taken care of (not just the financial piece, but everything). <P>H lives in "I don't know" land & "You don't understand" township. He is not able to make a commitment to either OW or his family. I understand that they need to like themselves, but this is wearing me and our family,friends, etc. all out. It seems like WS likes to take me to my limits then backs out and says that I stress him out. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Orchid,<P>You may find some answers in a book by James C. Dobbins called "Love Must Be Tough" - <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849916542/o/qid=986326010/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-8167113-5863941" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849916542/o/qid=986326010 /sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-8167113-5863941</A> <P>In it he discusses a different way of handling what we call here, the wayward spouses. As for "how long" it takes for a spouse to come out of the fog? 6 months, a year, 5 years, never..... For everyone it is different and sometimes they never return to who they were. It has been more than a year since my wife entered "the fog" and she still shows no signs of changing. Our divorce is close to being finalized in the next couple months. <P>I guess you can say there was one very small sign for me so far: About 2 months ago we were discussing what was left to be divided and what exactly she wanted from the house. I asked her what she wanted and I agreed to her requests. First off, they are all material things and to me material things were/are not important. Plus she was not asking for too much. I also offered her a few things that she did not even ask for. <P>[here's the sign] She stopped on the phone and asked me "why are you being so nice?". I told her "xxxxx, this is how I have been being throughout this whole affair - it was you who was making me out to be some kind of monster. Why am I being so nice and doing all this? Because you are my wife - I married you and I love you. This divorce is 100% your decision, not mine." Believe me when I say that this has been the only ray of hope I have seen in over a year. But I still have hope and faith.<P>As for the financial end, while I don't personally like separations as a solution to marital problems, it sounds like you are already separated? If that is the case, can't you get a separation agreement done in your state? It does not mean you are beginning a divorce or anything like that, it just goes to protect you financially from the things you describe.<P>Why can't they have the "being on their own" feeling within a marriage? Good question - I don't think there is any good reason why they can't. I know that when I got married, I never viewed it as losing any kind of independence - in fact I never viewed any part of marriage as negative. But we need to try to put ourselves in the "selfish" mindset. Recently I have been back and forth with a few people here on this site - If you read their posts, the focus of all their messages are based around "I" and "me" - "my happiness", "I deserve" with little if any concern about their spouses. And they wonder why they don't feel "in love" anymore? It amazes me - how can you truly love someone when the current focus of your life is all about yourself? Selfishness to me, is the exact opposite of love. What about commitment? For better AND for worse, not "until my feelings change". If they divorce this time, how in the world can they ever make those vows again? Knowing that once things got tough, or boring, or hard they would be gone once again!<P>My lawyer has a nickname for what I am going through - he calls it the "late 20th century divorce". People who were raised to believe in this fairy-tale marriage mentality get married rather young, before life has had a chance to smack them in the face. Then once they are married they continually look to others outside their marriage because they don't understand why their marriage is not all lovey-dovey. They see other married couples and secretly wonder why their own marriage is not as good as these other couples. Not taking into account that most married couples, no matter how bad things may be behind closed doors, always put on the best show in public. I am the perfect example - when my wife left me, not one single person said they expected it - they were all totally amazed ("Mike I thought you had the perfect marriage"). <P>Then what is even worse is when these spouses begin to look to the "single life" - no responsiblity - no worries - no one to worry about but themselves. To them, the single life begins to look so much better than what they currently have. Not until they give up what they have and go out into the world will they ever realize what they are truly giving up. If/when they ever realize it, that is when the regret sets in.<P>Also on a side note: What really amazes me is their total disregard for their spouse - it is almost like they have no guilt whatsoever. And the best, absolute best line ever is "well I'm doing the best thing for me AND HIM/HER". Yeah, keep telling yourself that and maybe you'll start believing it.... But I digress <P>That leaves spouses like us in such a quandry. The best thing we can do is "let go" of them, but the only thing we want to do is to "hold on" to them. This puts even more stress into the situation and instead of the wayward spouse stopping to think about what they are doing, they tend to "run" in order to get away from all the stress.<P>Remember the story of the dog on top of the bridge? He has a brand new tasty bone in his mouth. While he is on top of the bridge he looks down into the water. Suddenly he sees another dog down there who also has a good looking bone. The dog then opens his mouth to bark at the other dog so he can get that bone to, when all of the sudden his own bone falls out of his mouth - the bone keeps falling until it hits the water. Then the reflection of the dog is shattered and he realizes that it was not another dog, he was only looking at the reflection.<P>Our spouses are "all about themselves" now. Unfortunately I am beginning to realize that when people are in that mentality, nothing we can do or say will shake them out of it. What I decided to do is to let my wife do what she thinks is best - I know it is not. I know we loved each other and I KNOW overall we had a pretty good marriage. Now she is in an atmosphere that I label a "target rich environment" - she is living near a big naval base in Florida (Her brother is there and in the Navy). I don't want to stereotype, but I know what many service men are like when it comes to women. So I think to myself "let her see what a bad guy is really like".<P>For me, I will continue to love her - but I won't wait around for her. If she "wakes" up and I am still un-attached then I will agree to try again. But if I am with someone new, I don't know if I could go back.... Don't get me wrong, I am definitely NOT looking for someone knew - I totally believe that if God wants someone knew for me, he will place her right in front of me. For now I am just enjoying life....<P>Hope some of this helps...<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited April 03, 2001).]

Dear B Rose, GDP & ST2000,<P>Thanks for you replies. <P>B Rose & GDP, you are both right, watching and waiting is about all I can do. So hard that they get to play while we pay. <P>ST2000, I appreciate your taking the time to write to me. I will look up the information you posted. Like the others, you are telling me to watch and wait. This is so hard for me to do, but something that H has forced me into. As much as he claims I am forcing him to make a decision, he is forcing his family to watch and wait. Oh how I wish this could change. I am not even picky anymore who changes it, just make a decision so we can get on with our lives. <P>It seems as if there is some type of sick enjoyment knowing that he is keeping us in suspense. Is that what it is? I am getting a queezy feeling in the pit of my stomache just asking that question. These momments of anxiety and light headed rushes when these thoughts come in are at times unbearable but we must keep plugging along. Here at work, I must juggle my time with important issues at work (I work on payroll taxes) and put my personal issues aside. For the most part I have been able to do that. I resent the fact that H can do whatever he wants at my expense. The physical, emotional toll and mental anguish is often more than 1 person can handle, yet they keep piling on more and more. <P>Ok, enough. You are a qualified board member and not my therapist. You may start charging me a fee if I keep talking. (ha ha)<P>Just one more item to post. In addition to your comments, I am reminded of what my 6 year old said about his dad. His dad commented the other week in front of his son that he was a bad dad and bad husband. After his father left, our son said, "Mom, if dad is a bad husband why would he want to be married to another woman? Wouldn't he just be another bad husband? My dad used to be a good dad for 6 years, why did he turn into a bad dad?" <P>Wow. I was left speechless. <P>Thanks again for all your help.<BR>L.

Geez, I usually pretty much a semi-lurker, dunno why I have so much to say today on this board...must be all the caffiene I've been downing since 6am...<P>Orchid,<P>I've been where you are at with the anger and resentment at an H who won't make a decision, leaving his family hanging.<P>And what I discovered was that I spent all my time focusing on what my H was or was not doing, so that I did not have to take responsiblity for my own life and my own choices.<P>I remember calling my Al-Anon sponsor and venting huge amounts of anger at my H - basically for the same reasons that you are angry now. He got to run off and have the freedom of his single life and new girlfriend and no responsiblities. ME, on the other hand, was saddled at home in a new community, with no family or support, 2 children, and another one on the way. I was at home slaving away 24/7 taking care of it ALL while he got to play.<P>Oh boy was I angry. And you know what? My sponsor said to me (and it took a LONG time for me to understand what she was saying) - Bramblerose, it's your choice to be at home with your kids taking care of things. Your H has chosen differently, but he is not forcing you to do what you are doing. You choose this, so why are you so angry?<P>For a long time, I completely rejected her approach to my situation. Then one day I realized - that I too could dump my children, running off to live a carefree fantasy life too, but that I chose to stay and love my children.<P>Suddenly the anger evaporated. Sometimes the anger creeps back in, when I am feeling victimized, but all I have to do is remind myself that I choose my children. He chose alcohol and women. <P>And what do you think my choice will result in? And what do you think his will?<P>All I am doing is pointing out that you are making a choice in your situation too. Your H is doing his thing, and you are choosing your resulting response. You could choose something different, but don't. This isn't a judgement on what you are doing - frankly I hung out waiting for my H to see the light for waaaaaaaaaaay longer than I should have. But that was what I needed to do, as obviously you need to do now.<P>Once I began to see things as "my choice", instead of "what H was doing to me", I began to take responsiblity for my own life, and suddenly, anger wasn't ruling my emotions.<P>

Dear BRose,<P>Ok, I feel like I need a big sister to talk me through so please bear with me for being a bit slow. I understand what you are saying, but is the choice really mine? Protecting my family's interest (making sure we have a roof over our heads, bills paid, food on the table, clean home, clean clothes) is not a choice, it is a responsibility. It should be a shared responsibility. Right now that is not happening. Is it ok to be upset about this? Do I have a right to be? Should I be? <P>You are right about my anger, I feel violated, taken advantage of, walked all over. Now, if you can, tell me again what is the right way to view this? Who can I give away these responsibilities to? <P>H gets to avoid responsibility with little consquense. WHY? HOW? <P>Stubborn isn't she?!?!?!<P>L.<BR>

Heehee, do you know how long it took me to get that concept?<P>It took me most of a year. And when I passed that bit of wisdom on to a very dear friend, it took her about 6 months - then suddenly she called me out of the blue and said: "Guess what? I GET WHAT YOU MEANT!!"<P>Taking care of the kids, managing the house, paying the bills...is a responsibility.<P>It's a responsiblity that you CHOOSE to do.<P>Its your H's responsibility also, but where is he? He ain't around because he chooses something different. <P>No one can force your H to honor his obligations and responsiblities. No one can force you to do it either.<P>You are CHOOSING this. Your H is choosing something else.<P>There will be consequences to those choices. Some consequences are more immediate than others. <P>For now, my H has his freedom (cept financially, and oh boy, wait til my lawyer gets him!! <G> ). <P>Ok, and I'm totally tied down. I've got 2 boys, a brand new baby, and a business I am trying to get up and running so I can support myself after 10 years of being a stay at home mom.<P>But in the end - I will have the love and respect of my children. I will be surrounded by people who love and respect me. I will be happy, regardless of what my H chooses for himself. THAT is why I choose to stay. THIS is my choice.<P>My H on the other hand, may be having "it all" seemingly for the time being. And eventually....his bottom will hit. He most definitely won't have the admiration and respect of his children, not because I have turned them against him, but because of the consequences of his choices and actions.<P>It's a subtle change in thinking that's not easy to 'get' right away. <P>But really, what it means, is a shift in the way you view yourself. Are you a victim? Or are you responsible for yourself? You can choose to sit helplessly on the side while your H makes his choices. And in that case, you can stay the victim - not taking responsiblity for your own choices and life. OR you can begin drawing boundaries, making choices, and choosing your actions. You can be willing to make decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. <P>When I am in victim mode, I sit around feeling helpless and powerless. I wail about what my H is doing, instead of accepting that he is a grown man making choices, and that I have the very same power. I can't control him, but I can control me.<P>If I'm a victim, I have no power.<P><BR>

BrambleRose,<P>That is a great way to be looking at things. I too often feel myself getting, for lack of a better word, jealous. While we have no children, I moved here for my wife. I started my own business, for me AND for my wife. I have a Siberian Husky that we bought together. I have a house that we bought together. All the bills right now are coming to me - I don't even have two dimes to rub together. And don't even get me started on the house - figures the year she leaves "things" just decide to start breaking or leaking While I can usually fix them myself, having my own business leaves little spare time.<P>And on top of it all, I still am only 30 years old - many of my friends are still single, living in apartments, no real responsibility except their jobs - their social lives are thriving.<P>But then God brings me back down to reality. If you noticed in the first paragraph I used the word "have" several times. That is right - I HAVE ALOT! A lot to be thankful for. My wife left it all behind in search of happiness. You know what? I am happy right here and now - I don't need to look for it. I can miss her terribly and STILL be happy. I have the respect of EVERYONE who knows us (and me). It is not as if there are people saying that she left because of the monster I was. Rather they are all saying "what in the *ell is she thinking".<P>Could I sell the house and get rid of the business and the dog? Sure. Will I? No I don't think so. I choose to have them in my life, and my life is so much better for it.<P>Let her go search for happiness, for as long as she keeps searching for it, she will NEVER find it. I have my happiness - it is being myself and walking with God. So I have hit some rough times right now - who cares! It WILL get better - It can't get "much" worse <P>Thanks for reminding me of my choices!!<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Ok you two, you have opened my eyes and taught an <BR>'ol dog' a new trick. Listen and learn from those who know irregardless of their age. <P>You are great!!!!!! Can I adopt you as my big bro & sis? <P>I have viewed myself as a victim. Because I am. However, I can choose to pull myself out of that status myself. That is my choice. <P>There is hope for the once helpless. There is light at the end of the tunnel. You two have made my day. You have given me strength to grin and bear it. I will truly remember your act of kindness and care when it meant being tough enough to put it in my face. <P>Grateful as always,<BR>L.<BR>

Well, it seems both of you two are smarter than I am!! <P>I am not kidding, it took me almost a year to understand what you guys 'get' so much faster than me....<P>Anyway, sure Orchid, adopt me - I'm warning you though...I'm the oldest of 10 so you'll have to get in line!!! <P>I'm only 32 though, so I've got alot of time to spend learning these life lessons though...let's hope I'm not nearly so stubborn with the rest of them!!<P>Now I have a question for you Orchid:<P>You said: "This is so hard for me to do, but something that H has forced me into. As much as he claims I am forcing him to make a decision, he is forcing his family to watch and wait. Oh how I wish this could change. I am not even picky anymore who changes it, just make a decision so we can get on with our lives. "<P>So, now that you understand about YOUR choices, and YOUR responsiblity, and YOUR power.....just what are you going to choose???<P>You can't force him to make a decision anymore than he can force you to watch and wait. <P>You can CHOOSE to watch and wait. Or you can choose to do something else. I'm not going to tell you what you SHOULD do, because only you can decide that. Just be very clear with yourself that regardless of what you decide to do, its about YOUR choices, not about your H forcing you.<P>You want it to change? Well let me share with you something else that my sponsor says to me when I am whining...(I *hate* it when she says it too - but that's because she's right)<P>"Nothing changes if nothing changes...."<P>So what are you going to change? <P>And if you choose to change nothing, that's OK. But just be clear again, with yourself, that you choose to change nothing.<P>((hugs)) BR

Dear B Rose,<P>Do you remember that old Star Trek episode where a girl (who is an android) has a emotional human momment and she has to choose? OK, so I am a little bit older since I did watch the original show.<P>Well, I chose..... to go on with my life. With or without H. I am not standing still. This is not healthy for myself and our son. I say with or without because legally, we are still married & I respect that status. I respect the marriage arrangement. When that arrangement is broken by divorce, it will be a legal and spiritual divorce. For those that know, in the Bible the only allowed divorce is adultery. <P>My life will not stagnate while H lives in 'I don't know land'. My son & I are actually doing ok, it is just those momments of encounter with H that is a setback. Well and a bit more. We still miss him. The good him. The good husband and father. We do love that man. <P>Every so often (I guess a bit more lately), I get depressed. Another poster who gave me a lot of advice said I needed to go to the acceptance stage. I feel myself slipping back to the depression stage and posted here today to fight my way out. You and ST2000, saved me. You pulled me out of that stinking hole of depression. Lifesavers that you are, you deserve a medal. I hope others reading your words will feel the same. Words can not express enough how I feel. I am almost welling up with tears writing this, but this time they are tears of joy. <P>But I can't cry too much because I am still at work. Doing nothing more interesting that other companies payroll taxes. So back to real world, having to face normal everyday issues plus this A stuff. <P>I've wiped my eyes and can now face the commute traffic. <P>Have a nice evening and hope to see you all here tomorrow!!<P>Sincerely,<BR>L.<P>PS: Maybe our problems have not disappeared but their reasons have been minimized for a while.<P><BR>

Dear Orchid,<P>No, I don't remember that Star Trek episode, but that's just because I have a memory like a sieve. One thing I'm really going to miss about my H is that he remembers everything that I have seen and read. I always have to ask him - Did I see this movie/show? Did I read this book yet? He remembers it all - and he remembers if I liked it or not!!<P>Funny that you mention spiritual vs legal divorce. Of course, our WS's want to talk about emotional divorce as rationalization for adultery...but all I can say to that is FOG! <P>Being Catholic, my getting a legal divorce has nothing to do with my marital status on a spiritual level. I am choosing to divorce my H because I need the legal protection and I need certain legal measures put in place so that I can raise my children to the best of my ability.<P>But in the eyes of the Church, and I believe, in the eyes of God, we are still husband and wife. And everytime he sleeps with someone else, he'll still be committing adultery.<P>But after this legal stuff is out of the way, I will be asking for an annulment also. Because my H is an alcoholic, there is a good chance, according to my parish priest, that I will be granted an annulment - meaning that my H was incapable of taking the vows of marriage when he did, and that our spiritual marriage never existed.<P>Acceptance is truly key to the healing process. As long as I fight what my H is, what the reality around me is, then I am miserable. It wasn't until I accepted that my H was not what I wanted him to be, and that nothing was changing, that I was able to let go of him and take the steps necessary to move on with my life.<P>I'm glad I could help make you feel better. All I did was pass on to you what my wonderful Al-Anon sponsor told me. She's a smart lady, and I'm glad her wisdom could work for you too!<P>Just remember that depression is suppressed anger turned inward. It's a funny thing that we human beings do...someone hurts us, and instead of being angry and working through it, we stuff it and beat ourselves up instead.<P>If you are angry, just be honest about it, and get it out of your head. Don't leave it sitting in your head just waiting to ambush you when you most need your strength!!<P>((hugs)) BR

Orchid,<P>Kudos - That is exactly what I did about 6 months ago. For me it took the advice of another great person here at MB - FaithfulWife. About six months ago she asked if I had "truly" given my marriage over to God. While I always believed that it was up to Him how things would work out, I realized I was still trying to control the situation and my wife. Two nights after I read Faithfulwife's post, I found myself alone in our bedroom in the dark. I stopped and literally got on my knees and prayed hard. I decided then and there that I was not strong enough to handle all this myself and that I needed to stop trying to "control" it all. I asked God to take my marital worries from me and do what He thinks is best for me AND for my wife - and that I will trust and have faith in His work. Amazingly from that day forward I stopped focusing on the "whys" - I stopped worrying about the "whens" and the "hows" and I began living my days. Happiness came back to me. Memories of my wife turned from sadness to actual happiness.<P>Do I still miss her. Oh so much. But I just decided that I did not have control over any of it - nothing I did or said would really matter. But someone who has full control over it is God and He will see us all through our difficulties.<P>Once I "let go" of the control (notice I did not "let go" of my wife) I felt a change inside of me - and it builds everyday.<P>------------------------------------------------<BR>BrambleRose,<P>Being Catholic myself, the issue of an anulment is also on my mind. Not sure of your experience, but once I started exploring the ins and outs of an anulment, I quickly realized that everyone (even priests - one would contradict the other) have different ideas of what an anulment involves. To keep my piece of mind on the issue, I decided to research it myself. I found an incredible book on the topic. It does not preach about the issue, it does not take sides - it simply gives the history of the process and it dispells alot of the misconceptions. The author is a layperson but has been involved in the process for quite a few years - his conclusions are based upon his experience AND upon Canon Law. If you are considering getting one, I highly recommend you invest in this book - it is soooo worth it. "100 Answers to your Questions on Annulments" <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0536001723/o/qid=986391196/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-8167113-5863941" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0536001723/o/qid=986391196/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-8167113-5863941</A> <P>It helped me get things straight and actually understand more in-depth what an annulment actually is.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hi Mike, thanks for the tip, I ordered the book - I am sure it will be very helpful. I have done quite a bit of reading online about annulments, and have talked to a couple of different priests, AND I have a friend who just went through the process.<P>So I think I have an OK grasp on the topic, but I have yet to find any information on how it might be handled in the Byzantine Catholic rite. Although we are both Roman Catholic, we were married in a Byzantine Catholic ceremony, and my parish priest (Byzantine) tells me after some research on his part, that I must go through the Byzantine Tribunal for an annulment. I am sure there are some differences...<P>Legalities!! <P>Owell, it's not like I'm rushing off to get remarried any time soon, so when I get to that point, I'll worry about it!