So, what do these two things have to do with each other?<P>H wants to move to East Coast as a family (3 boys) as our options for jobs in our field are vast out there. Instead of renting a place, he's suggesting buying a house together and once we get settled he'll move out. He's committed to what's best for the kids and he feels this is it (also wants to find himself and decide for himself what is best).<P>I've been Plan Aing for four+ months now and he still claims "Nothing has changed. My intentions are for separation. I see no chance for our relationship." Why do I have expectations that if I "perform" in Plan A - things might change? <P>We have had one (poor) incidence of intensive 5-day counseling and since then I've been going to work on my own issues. The question is... should I just go out there and go along with this plan to get settled and for him to move out? My Cslr says the onus is not on me to make any move since I can do my consulting work from here. How can I demonstrate my commitment to HIM (Husband) but not make the Separation/Divorce easy as apple pie when I'm against it?<P>I know I can't force him into anything and it's better if I remain friendly with him but my integrity goes against this because it's AGAINST everything I want (is that my taker - wanting a healthy marriage)? Shall I be a GIVER at my own expense? <P>Thoughts...?<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Let's deconstruct his thinking. If he is forced to leave in order to move ... he will inevitably have a great deal of difficulty with visitation.<P>If he cajoles you into moving with him, the divorce leaves the kids in town (and he will perhaps have a legal right to keep you from moving them out of town). <P>It's all about him, with a slight nod to the best interests of the chiildren. <P>So what can you say? Say you won't move unless it's to stay married and repair your marriage. Get an agreement that there will be a total commitment on his part to counseling if you move, and put some teeth in it and verify whether you can enforce a contractual right in the new state to move back to where you have been living--or for that matter, anywhere else. Without that it's a no-go.<P>Disrupt the childrens' lives twice in quick succession? First a cross-country move, then dad packs up and leaves? He's trying to sell you something <I>you could step in for free</I>. If you go along, that's not being a Giver -- that's capitulating to his Taker.

I like the idea of de-constructing his thinking since he's not terribly verbal ... I'm left to drawing conclusions based on very limited information.<P>He will not be forced to leave our present circumstances (we're staying with my folks until we move - he's here he says for the kids). I asked him why is he waiting to separate? He said he'd leave right away. He hasn't and I told him again that I don't want him to leave but if he's bent on leaving why is he waiting until we have the trauma or situation of a cross-country move and resettling before he decides to move out? <P>I am capitulating to his <I>TAKER</I> mode but giving him an ultimatum - we get help or I don't move won't set well with him and will have majorly diminished returns emotionally. <P>He is looking out for himself and he's not talking to me because he's afraid of my reaction and how it may impact him. He's told me that. I don't think he's being vindictive towards me... he just wants his independence and freedom to live his life his own way without involving me. In his perfect world, it would be the children and him - with me only involved with the kids (for their well-being). <P>He's through with the relationship... I don't think he's trying to hurt me (although I don't know). His choice now to separate and eventually terminate the marriage, are a direct result of my past behavior. Mind you, it wasn't anything pathological (IMHO) but he would disagree stating that I tried to control things and him.<P>Anyway, I've seen the error of my ways, waiting for him to see his own contribution but not holding my breath. In the meantime, the kids need their Mom and Dad close and not fighting. So, what choice to I have but to capitulate to his TAKER at this point? As you can see, I'm not being a martyr without resentment and this scares me for the future.<P>As far as legal concerns, what questions or areas should I be clear on before we decide on this? Shall I get an atty before I make the decision to go? Your insight about getting an agreement with a clause about things not working is sound. Though I see it as a major lovebuster at this point - and definitely NOT a part of any POJA. I think he would be majorly upset if I sought out an atty.<P>Anyway, he's clear that he's moving out once we get settled. I'm not clear whether I'm going to make this move or not. He's already stated that he is not going to seek counseling as there is "no chance" for this relationship.<P>Ok, deep breath now...... whew.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

By "forced to leave" I meant that he couldn't make the move without "leaving" you and the kids behind, not that you and the kids and your parents would be pushing him out.<P>What you <I>won't</I> do may be a lovebuster, but what about what you <I>can't</I> do? If I were you, I don't think I <I>could</I> leave my parents' home to establish myself and my children on the opposite side of the country, all the while knowing to an almost-certainty that my husband would shortly abandon our home and leave me with the children, though likely unable to move back for both practical and legal reasons.<P>You just <I>can't</I> do that. And if he can't see it, it's his problem, not yours. My only possible softening of that position would be if your parents themselves were a meddlesome, destabilizing influence. And I would still probably say stay put. Grandparents who are there trump a daddy who isn't. Especially when there's a move involved.<P>Faced with your <I>inability</I> (not in the physical sense, but in the psychological sense) rather than <I>unwillingness</I>, <I>he</I> may find some flexibility, or motivation to reconcile. Even if he starts out thinking he's fooling you by acting out a reconciliation, I wouldn't be surprised if his heart doesn't follow his behaviors. Especially if you do nothing to foul it up.<P>He might even find his way to an attorney first, in order to try to find a way to give you further assurances ... but I just can't see following around someone who doesn't want you anymore--unless he's <I>$uperdad</I> (with the accent more on the "dad" than the "$" dollar sign). <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited April 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>You just <I>can't</I> do that. And if he can't see it, it's his problem, not yours. My only possible softening of that position would be if your parents themselves were a meddlesome, destabilizing influence. And I would still probably say stay put. Grandparents who are there trump a daddy who isn't. Especially when there's a move involved... Faced with your <I>inability</I> (not in the physical sense, but in the psychological sense) rather than <I>unwillingness</I>, <I>he</I> may find some flexibility, or motivation to reconcile... but I just can't see following around someone who doesn't want you anymore--unless he's <I>$uperdad</I> (with the accent more on the "dad" than the "$" dollar sign). <P>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited April 05, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Once again, thanks for your insight. You see, I hadn't thought about inability psychologically... directly anyway. I've been very concerned about being able to make it financially on my own, purchasing a house may force me to work (mortgage) and it will definitely limit my options if things don't work out... it's kind of a permanent situation one that's hard to get out of. <P>My parents are fine - well my husband will argue that my mother is awful (he states, "she can't help but be manipulative - everything that comes out of her mouth is an attempt to control others). He really likes my Dad and sees him as a really positive influence on our kids.<P>Regarding being a $uperDad? He is pretty awesome with the kids... before we left Europe he said he'd take on a job as a janitor as long as he could be with his kids. Well, words are one thing I guess... He hasn't been in favor of taking on a full-time job - so he's looking at setting up a home-office with one organization near DC so that he can be close to the kids and close to opportunities in the city.<P>Meanwhile, I will work from home as a consultant (traveling once every other month or so). There's a lot of uncertainty though with that... Buying a home is such a commitment! But, he says the house will be mine and then he'll go find his own place.<P>I don't know... in his mind it works. For some reason, in mine, I still have reservations... But, I will do due diligence and go have a look to see if it possibly will work. I really wish we could do it together... he doesn't play games with me about reconciliation notions to trick me. He's very consistently saying, "It's not going to work." So, I'm not being led by the nose - I don't think...<BR><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Dear Ovrc's,<P>Thanks for the reply to my other post. I will respond to you there. I just wanted to add that his promise to buy you a house 'over there' can be made a sure thing, if he means what he says. I don't know your full story, but it sounds like he wants to be a free bird. My H wanted his freedom also. It came with a price. He is finding out that freedom is not as rosey as he thought but he is stuck out there now. <P>You have already said you question his words (or at least that what is sounded like). Making a move on words can be dangerous. Sounds like you have some stability where you are right now. Can he go and setup himself and see how good it really is? Do you trust him to do that? <P>Just some questions, I know I would raise. <P>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited April 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>Dear Ovrc's,<P>You have already said you question his words (or at least that what is sounded like). Making a move on words can be dangerous. Sounds like you have some stability where you are right now. Can he go and setup himself and see how good it really is? Do you trust him to do that? Just some questions, I know I would raise. <BR>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited April 05, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I've been thinking about that. So, we're going out there in two weeks to check it out. If things work out at this visit, it would be good for him to go and start living there. But, he'll say he needs/wants to be here (in the Midwest) for the kids - which is true. <P>Basically, his argument will be that when we go, we will go together. I, however, would like him to experience this freedom now while the rest of us are somewhat settled. He wants to get us set up (at least) and then move out on his own. In his mind though, this is not an experience - this is his life and he's pretty stubborn about this once his mind is made up.<P>I'll go and see before I make any commitments as to whether this will work out in the long-run for me and the kids. But, the kids need both of us so do I just suck it up and go with the flow? I can't convince him to stay with me - he doesn't want it at all. So, how do I live with that "fact" and get on with my life?<P><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

If he wants to see how it's gonna go, why doesn't he move out of the nest <I>first</I> (but stay local) ... with some interim means of earning (<I>janitor</I> perhaps?) until he decides if separation is for him? I'd frankly be tired of having his icy butt in my parents' home. Let it go be icy in a 600 sf. apartment built by Cardinal... (those prefabs they truck to site and lay side by side ... also like Knights' Inn).

OvrCs,<P>I think you are well advised to be cautious. There is something missing here, the story just doesn't hang together right. So, I'm kinda hoping you will trust your own instincts, and resolve all doubts in favor of your own best judgement.<P>I read somewhere once that women fall out of love much easier than men. Generally speaking, men have a very difficult time leaving a marriage unless they already have something or someone else to go to. <P>You describe STBX as a man who is really good with his kids, yet he wants to haul them across country so he can leave the home they live in? Is he looking to use that house as a hitching post he can tie you and the kids to while "he finds himself"? That's buncombe! If he really wants to know who he is, all he has to do is check his drivers license.<P>Going through a separation is hard enough without leaving your entire family and support system behind. If ever there was a time to apply POJA, this is it. I would really recommend that you not do this, unless you both <B>enthusiastically </B> agree. And right now, you just don't sound all that enthusiastic. <P>Prayers and stuff, <P>Bumper

DON'T GO.......it's hard enough to go through with seperation or divorce, let alone do it on your own in a new city/state without any family.<P>If he wants his own life then he should move out there and find one. If he wants to be by his kids then he should stay there.<P>It's hard on kids to move anyway. But then for your H to get them settled and then move out!!! He's not thinking about the kids at all.<P>If there really is no chance to save your marriage you would be better off staying put. Don't suck it up as you have said to make things easier on him or your kids. They are going to hurt no matter what.<P>Dee

Lets see...uprooting your children away from extended family, school, friends, their home....and THEN moving out and leaving you to deal with it all alone on a daily basis?<P>This is not in the best interest of anyone but your H.<P>My kids have gone through their father moving out. It was extremely traumatic for them. I can't imagine having them lose EVERYTHING but their parents, and then losing one of those too.<P>If you are going to have to go through a separation, the BEST thing, IMHO, for your children, is to give them a stable, loving, environment, surrounded by lots of people who love them. <P>Security is key, how more unsecure could they feel, losing everything at once??<P>And not to mention how incredibly tough it is to manage alone with no support. I know, I've been doing it for 3 children (one was a pregnancy and now an infant) for 13 months, with only my H's family an hour away.<P>I can't even begin to stress how much you are going to need help and support from family. <P>And your H wants to uproot you from that?<P>Your H is thinking of H, and not your kids, not even for a second. <P>I'm sorry if I come across rather opinionated on this, but honestly, it just steams me when I see parents using "the kids" as an excuse for their own FOG behavior.<P>--BR

Another thought....<P>Before you decide anything, you might want to check the divorce/separation laws before you move there. <P>I know that in NJ for example, you have to be a resident for at least a year before filing for divorce. And there is no legal separation. So if I had moved here with an H that had already told me flat out he was leaving....I'd have been completely without legal protection. When my H stopped supporting me briefly last summer, and threatened to take me to court to force me to give him the children on weekends with the OW, I was told there was not a darn thing I could do legally until I had filed for divorce. It was simply seen as a domestic disagreement that the courts had no business in. He had the freedom to do what he wanted to me financially as long as there was no divorce complaint filed.<P>This isn't an accusation that your H is trying to trick you, I'm just pointing out that you stand to lose ALOT more than he does in all of this. So you'd be wise to make sure you understand all of the angles....

Hello... thanks for the many words of wisdom. So, from the sounds of it, there is NO support for my moving out there in the efforts of trying to demonstrate "love" so that just maybe he'll change his mind?... The odds are extremely against it, BUT if I just stay here where my parents are (and move out myself with the boys) that would send him to the MOON and his anger would last forever! I mean already I'm dealing with an environment of unforgiveness and living in the penal justice system - you do the crime, you pay in time (but I haven't been given a sentence yet so I have no idea if/when I'll ever be up for parole). <P>Anyway, is there ANY support for my going out there to live close by so he can be near his kids? It's not like I won't be able to work there - I do have some leads. It's the complete LACK of emotional/social support that concerns me... the psychological aspect of going through separation and divorce. I feel like I've already gone through so much and we've not even separated yet. You mean to tell me it gets worse?<P>Am I just fooling myself here? <P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

I'm not familiar with your situation, but I had to jump in here just off of what you said. You have received so very good advice from the others as something is "just not right here." <P>First, I am in total agreement with everyone that he is doing this for himself and not you or the kids. It sounds to me as if he is trying to get you away from your support system.<P>Second, I am wondering why he wants to move, buy a house, then up and leave, and say he is going to give you the house. My thought when I read this was...what is he trying to gain out of this? Is it possible that the state he is wanting to move to will have divorce laws that will benefit him? While I respect you for not wanting to rock the boat, you must always look out for you and your children. It may be a LB, but it could save you many problems in the future. Especially, if he does decide to leave, you will still have the support of your family and friends if you stay where you are. And there is a good possibility that if he moves alone, the grass will not be so green anymore. <P>I say this because my ex was extremely hateful throughout the divorce and everything was to benefit himself and certainly not the kids or myself. We are now trying to work on us, but it is amazing the Jeckyl & Hyde some spouses can become. Remember, some LB's are necessary to protect ourselves. Take care of you and your kids.

OvrCs,<P>I've read this post several times and feel so badly for you. There is no good answer in all this. <P>Personally if I was going through a D while living with my parents I think I'd go mad. Bad enough having to deal with all my emotions but then having my mother tell me how she never thought he was any good BLAHBLAHBLAH. Don't get me wrong I love my mother she can just be highly insensitive at times. OTOH being somewhere without a support network would be terrible as well and I think the kids would suffer way more as you would have no outlet for your grief and they would feel more responsibility for you.<P>Take care. Let us know what you decide. <P>

Yeah, it's a tough situation. I'm not only dealing with relationship issues with spouse, but family-of-origin issues that have a LOT to do with the situation I'm finding myself in. Well, I'm thinking that where the problem lies, there also the answer will be found. Anyway, thanks for your supportive words... I'm going to go check it out but not make any commitments. I was hoping the worst was over but we haven't even physically separated yet - not with him staying in my parents home now. If I decide not to go, I'm moving out into my own place,... he can stay here if he wants! That's kind of a funny thought actually! But, my parents would have him... they'd do nothing to add to his ammo against me including setting some boundaries.<P>Oh well... life goes on! And I KNOW there are people who are in a much worse situation! So, no more cheese please becuase I've stopped bringing the 'wine' (whine) - for now anyway...<P>G'night!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Dear OvrC's,<P>Confusing isn't it? All of us want what is best for you yet, we don't have all the right answers. <P>Can you stand another idea? How about asking your husband to write down the pros and cons of this move? Is he familar with the area, schools, shopping, day care, safety of the neighborhood? Let him do the research and show you the benefit. In the meantime, you do your pro and con list for staying. Be honest. If you need, with a mutual friend compare the two lists. Maybe talk with someone who is from that area to get an idea of what he should be telling you. <P>There are a lot of people from all over here at this board, maybe we can shed some light on some of those concerns. You can also do some internet checking about the vincity and rating of the schoold, weather, neighborhood groups, activities, etc. <P>Just another opinion. <P>L.<BR>

Thanks Orchid for the thought... I will keep it in mind. He resists these types of things as lists are more my sort of thing. But, the onus is on him to move not me. So, I've got to think clearly on this one. I've already looked at neighborhoods and schools on the net. I've found an area that might work... but then there it's me doing the work and I'm not even convinced this is right at all. So, there ya have it! Thanks for the positive solution! I'll ask him about it once we return... though he has a tendency to "flood" emotionally and can't express himself verbally the moment I ask a provocative question like that. So, I'll wait for it... Cheers and NOW I'm going to bed!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Just another thought that I'd appreciate your consideration on...<P>My H says he will separate and likely eventually D, but has done nothing to start it. We are going to Maryland next week together to look and see if this would/could be a place to settle down.<P>He's made it clear to me that he intends for ME to buy a house on my own with nothing to do with him, and then once we get moved and settled in, he'll move out.<P>Now, my question: I'm NOT for this separation/divorce thing in the first place - in my eyes we're still married and will be until he makes everything final (as I stated - he's done nothing up to this point). Should I really consider purchasing a HOUSE in my own name when we're still married? Wouldn't that just facilitate or enable him to move on no strings attached? I'm definitely NOT enthusiastic about this...and the separation/divorce isn't even MY idea!<P>He knows I'm committed to the kids and that means locating within 50 miles of each other. But, if I buy the house, then he's free to do whatever he wants... I know he's equally committed to the kids but it really leaves me strapped in case I change my mind or if it just isn't working out living there. What do you think? Thanks for your questions and advice... the time is getting near for us to go and he's putting some pressure on to be in touch with real estate agents. I've been clear to him not to expect any commitments from me - as this is a venture trip to SEE if I could live out there. Thoughts?<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Don't do it from someone who did move. Biggest mistake I ever made. If your H is not planning on moving, don't move unless you want to, if you feel you will need your family close be stay where you are. Your kids have already moved from Europe, they don't need to move again & dad move out. Do only what feels right for you. Your kids will not be happy if you are unhappy in a new place, I haven't mangaged to hide my unhappiness from my OS & there are many problems because of it.