My husband and I got into a long discussion, which was a nice breakthrough. But what he said really bothers me. <P>Since the A, I have always done a lot of talking and crying to try to express my feelings. What this has done (I guess) is compounded his feelings of guilt and remorse(which he has never shared). He has shared resently that he is so overwhelmed with these feelings that he just wants to leave. He believes that I deserve someone better who won't treat me like he has. He says that he can't love me like I should be loved.<P>I think that these feelings of his will fade and he will move on to the next stage. I've asked him to stay until I feel the same. Is this crazy? Will his feelings change? We have an 8 wk old baby and I want to do what is best. Should I let him run away from his problems. Or is keeping him here better, so he has to face them and deal with it? I am still plan A'ing, but I think he would like to head towards divorse land. I could really use some advice.

This may not be what you want to hear but in my case H never did get over guilt. He had A 5 years ago and he is leaving me now. After 4 years of recovery I thought we were doing good. What was bad in our case is that H refused/refuses counselling and did not deal with what caused A in first place. Since then guilt has eaten him up and ruined our marraige. His reason for leaving is that he is not happy and feels he can find that happiness with someone else. Guess he feels a new start with someone else will make it all better for him. He loves me and cares for me but needs to D to protect me from further pain caused by him. He is begging me to get couselling to help me cope with my loss but refuses to see that he needs any help. <P>Guess in my case the ending was he ran away. Hope you hear better things from others. I'm sure there are many success stories out there.

In two months or so, you may feel like getting rid of him. There is a spike in wives' unhappiness with their marriage around 4 mos. post-partum. Watch out!

Mine actually said "I am running away from you!"<BR>i think that is the definition of "conflict avoidance."<P>Why do they run away? because maybe they don't know how to forgive themselves? if they can't do that, then why can anyone else? maybe because if they will hold it over someone's head, they can't stand the thought of it being held over their heads? the lack of emotional control is perceived to be too difficult with which to live. How about admitting being wrong and taking blame? is he an SJ personalitytype?<P>That is the why they want to start over, but yet, they really can't be successful until they change themselves, and that requires alot of work.<P>I saw X two mornings ago, she blew up at me. why? because her mom is in the hospital, probably never to come out again or go to a nursing home. misplaced anger, and i have told her she only communicates with me in anger. any change? nope.<P>then she apologized, and said she didn't know how to tell me. i wanted to say, "just open your mouth and utter the words." but she is used to communicating with anger, her mother taught her that. she said she is working thinking first, but it is very difficult.<P>So her therapist told her WE don't communicate well, she admits she doesn't communicate very well, she apologizes alot for her behavior. Do you think she would ever say to herself that she has solved her problems with divorce? Do you really think that coming from a family that makes excuses for wrong behavior is going to admit a personal failing? Do you really think that someone who loves getting attention for being bad, or loves sympathy, is going to just turn around and act responsible? the power of manipulation has just been transfered to the BS, and that is too much for the WS to handle.<P>It will take her a failure at a second marriage that she thinks will go really well because of the issues she is running from, to really take alook at herself, and then, and only then, will she possibly realize that she is responsible for her own happiness.<P>connorsmom,<P>your H was not ready to be a father, and has issues with his father that needs to be resolved, been there, done that. He has to decide that he wants the responsibility of fatherhood, and if he can do that with counseling, he may come back.<P>I suggest that you not do anything right now, but keep encouraging him to get counseling for his confusion. Whatever is the best way, get him to a counselor, and if he can, he can return very strongly and be very dedicated.<BR>But he has to decide and i would give him 6 months, easily, and i bet the situation will change. just my hunch.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited April 11, 2001).]

My husband was ready to be a father... we have been married for 6 yrs, but you right he does have issues with his own father. <P>We tried couples counceling, but it didn't really benefit either of us. I will try to get him to go on his own, but I can't see him doing that.<P>He sounds a lot like HopelessinAZ describes. He says he is not happy, but doesn't know what to do. I guess it doesn't hurt to give it 6 more months. I am just really frustrated because I have a hard time seeing this 'unhappiness' in him.<P>Hopeless... how did you guys go five years of this and then turn to divorce? I would be interested to know more about how you coped.

I, too, think that the guilt they feel is too much for them to handle. My H seemed to feel no guilt, but I'm sure it is there, well-buried. Rather than face it and deal with it, he ran away, and married his OW. I also think that when he had the affair and ruined our marriage, he somehow, somewhere inside realized that in order to stay and rebuild our marriage, he would have to face himself, and admit what a heel he had been. Not just because of the affair, but also because of the shabby way he treated me (with no good reason) the last 5-6 years of our marriage. It was so much easier for him to leave and start over with someone else, someone who he had not mistreated and with whom he could re-invent himself. When he looked at me, he saw the reflection of the selfish, uncaring, cruel person he had become in our marriage. By leaving me, he was able to become someone else, someone he didn't have to feel shame about being. Shame is a powerful emotion. I can't help but believe that it will re-surface eventually. One can only keep such things buried for so long. Eventually he will have to face it, but it may not be until near the end of his life. He may very well live in denial until then, or until some tragedy occurs that brings forth strong emotions and may cause him to engage in retrospection. He took the easy way out, and convinced himself that being with someone else was the answer to his problems. But we all know that you take your baggage with you....

Connersmom,<P>Like WIFTT's wife I deal with a conflict avoider. When I found out about the affair I was told by him never to bring it up again or he was gone. He wouldn't deal with it in any manner. So we did just move on. We moved and made a fresh start. We each stated some things that we would like to see change in the M and I did just what was expected. I planA'd like crazy because I knew I was working against the perfect fantasy woman who could do no wrong. I gave him freedom to do pretty much what he pleased. He took a job that required extensive travel, gone 5 days a week 52 weeks a year and then on weekends he came home and golfed and whatever. I never complained and never WANTED to complain I lived a very comfortable life and when he was here he was good to me. All this distance though made our relationship grow stale, I was pretty absorbed in the kids and my daily life and he in his that we grew apart. There is where I accept responsibility. I always felt caught in a catch 22 situation I wanted to ask him to not travel and when he would mention getting a job in town I would enthusiastically agree. But also knew that he likes change and felt he would be happiest travelling more. While travelling and living the life of a bachelor he saw what the other side had to offer and the marriage suffered. I will say here that I had come to trust him completely again. He came home every weekend and was available for me to call 24/7. But he is the romantic type and thinks that people can have that tingly type love all the time. Of course the young girls he meets while travelling fill that need in him and I did not.<P>Out of the blue he drops the I'm unhappy line on me and so the story goes. Were there problems yes. Were they fixable I do believe so but not unless he was willing to change. Here is where conflict avoider rears his ugly head again. Making that change and recommitting would mean admitting fault and changing. Things he would not do. He knew what he had to do to make the marriage work he just chose not to do them as he sees D as the easier of the two roads. Will he ultimatly be happier? Maybe, but chances are he will be in the same situation with wife #2 in a few years. His ways are too ingrained and he is unwilling to change. There is so much more to say. If you would like to talk sometime my e-mail is amosedal@home.com and I will give you my number. <P>Hang in there. These times are very hard. And what SIS said is true. After I had my second child I did not like my H at all. I even wished he would die in a wreck. I hated the thought of him touching me and I just endured making love to him. All his bad points were highlighted!<P>Take Care.

Lady M...<P>How do I help him get passed the shame and guilt? After our talk I now know that telling him how I feel only makes him feel worse. We've stopped talking about the A, which is fine by me. I can't stand talking about it anymore (of course there are still things I want to know, but never will). <P>I think he is holding back in the affection department (not sex though) to prove that he still has problems with his feelings for me. In my eyes he is not trying, but in his he says he can't because of the guilt. I am really big on hugs & kisses and saying I Love You, so this is the most difficult part for me. I've stopped doing it because I don't want him to feel more guilty, but I really want to do it. What do you think?

Connorsmom,<P>I don't know what to do to help them past the guilt. I think it would be great if we could but some people have to face things for themselves in order to deal with them. Almost like trying to get a drug abuser to admit he has a problem. You want to try to help them, but unless they want to help themselves, things will never change.<P>I'm curious to what other men on the board would say to the question of your H withholding affection but not sex. Affection, admiration, honesty, is what makes many women want to have sex. Without it, we tend to feel "used" or wonder if thats all we're here for. <P>I know you want to help your H, but realistically to help him might involve trying to change him and I don't know that we can ever change someone else, only ourselves. In the meantime, keep plan Aing and keep posting, you'll learn a lot here.<P>Hugs, Dana<P><BR>

Connorsmom - If he will consider some sort of counseling, it may be of help. When he feels he has made some progress, the two of you could go together and attempt to re-build. But he continues to avoid the issues, this is going to be difficult, as Dana said. Conflict-avoiders will do almost anything to avoid unpleasantness, even if facing it will result in the situation improving down the road. Not only do they avoid facing themselves, some of them (like my H) assign the bad attributes of themselves to the nearest available target, usually the spouse. They will accuse you of feeling and doing what in reality they are feeling and doing, but cannot admit it. They do these things to avoid facing the parts of themselves that are contrary to their image of themselves and that they wish to disown. In psychological terms this is called projection. Your H's avoidance is not a good sign. If it continues, he may begin to blame you for his actions, and assign to you the bad feelings that he, in fact feels. According to a very interesting book I found (that, unfortunately, is out of print) called "Sudden Endings", the author, Madeline Bennett discribes this occurence, which she calls the "Wife Rejection Syndrome". She says that it is usually triggered by mid-life issues or some kind of failure or other occurence that makes the spouse (most often the H) feel like a failure. He may be angry at himself or other family members (most likely his family of origin), but chooses to take out his wrath on his wife, first by withdrawing, blaming her, attributing his anger and bad feelings to her, and finally, by what the author calls a "Bonding Crisis" wherein the H detaches from his wife and very quickly establishes another relationship (affair). Often, once the affair begins, they become elated, with the conviction that all the problems will be solved if he can just jettison the wife. This book gave me a lot of insight - I plan in the next week or so to post some excerpts here from the book. In the meantime, encourage counseling, and don't attempt to make your H feel overly guilty at this stage. If he can work through this, his anger may dissipate, and then you can begin the real work of rebuilding your marriage.<P>I, also would be interested to know more about men's withholding of affection. My H did this also (before the affair, even). Not only did he withhold affection, he withheld sex, as well. Did anyone one else have a H who withheld sex for very long periods of time?<P>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited April 12, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited April 12, 2001).]

Well, i could be accused of it, but all i got were the mercy f*cks that Passionate Marraige describes as not very fulfilling. excellent book by the way, recommended reading<P>One reason why i did was POJA, because i was overworked and asked that we change our very dull, standard routine, because it was not exciting in the least. X refused, and said that it was impossible to do what i wanted, like a little foreplay. she had also told me several times that she didn't like sex.<P>so what to do? receive dead fish mercy f*cks? or ask for what i need, and X had stated what she needed, i tried to do accomplish what she asked, and nothing back. She did do it once, right before christmas, i thought it was great, recharged me, felt close to her, and she said she was so stressed out over initiating a sexual encounter, that she hated it.<P>and the last time we had POJA sex, the next day she came back and was furious with me, accused me of all sorts of stuff.<P>The projection is correct, it is from someone who is struggling on the inside, not knowing how to discuss feelings on his/her mind. using their magical powers of wishing away the problems. I even gave my X a sheet of<BR>examples, and how to talk to me so that i could listen. She just hammered away at stuff like HNHN was sexist favoring men.<P>so, here i am, but i will be ok, i'm somewhat fearful of having sex, that i will get turned on if it isn't up to snuff, but it will eventually return if the courtship period is long enough, and trust is built up enough to risk it.<P>

Dear Connersmom,<P>Your H sounds like many Ws's whose spouses are here trying work with MB ways. If your H is shy from counseling, could you try using the books like suriving an affair, his needs/her needs & givers/takers? Also the questionnaires can be done in the privacy of your own home. They reveal a lot about how you both feel about yourselves and each other. There is also the phone counseling option with the Harley's. <P>You have the added emotional pull of having a newborn baby. Let your husband know that you want to work this out with him and need this help. Is he up to that? Now, if his help at this time consists of you not crying so much, then find another way of relieving your stress. A friend, counselor, keeping a journal, venting here at this board are some alternatives. Others can chime in a give other ideas. Warm baths, little pampering, etc. <P>Bottom line is cooperative working network between the two of you with the same objective. Hard but in your case it can be possible. Is your H willing to read some of the posts here? Send him an e-mail. Maybe even e-mail some of your concerns. Mine perferred me to write so that he did not hear my pain. His ears hurt more than his eyes, I guess and he retained more info that way. <P>Just some suggestions. You are a new mom and need support. So does your H. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Hi Connorsmom,<P>I'm sorry, but my ex-h couldn't face anything, or everything, and ran away. He made the **classic** choice of choosing a new life, because it was too hard to repair this one.<P>We have two beautiful daughters (6 & 3), had a marriage that was a bit tired but that was all, it wasn't bad, he got fired, had an affair and within 8 weeks, my marriage was over.<P>He hasn't looked back, he's made no apologies and offered no explanations. Sometimes I get so mad, but that is quite rare these days. I've almost just chalked it up to experience.<P>I was interested to read about that book where someone mentioned projection. I think that's exactly what happened in my case. He got fired (we later sued for wrongful dismissal and won) felt unworthy or inadequate or whatever, made himself feel better by having the affair and then a succession of girlfriends, and moved on with his life.<P>But he's not happy. He still tears up on a regular basis, (he did with my dad two days ago on the ph.) and still quite often says and does things that don't add up to his having moved on and being happy with his life.<P>But d-day is almost 2 years ago now. He still doesn't know what he wants. He was never taught to deal with problems or how to solve them. You just sweep then under the carpet according to his family. So that's what he did. But it will come back to haunt him one day. One day he will realise what he has thrown away.<P>From what I've read here, conflict avoidance is a huge issue for a lot of people and a lot of marriages. If they (WS's) only realised that communicating about things can bring two people closer together, and that working and solving problems together is so satisfying. If they only realised how much it matters to a marriage that you solve things together. It's one thing my ex-h never understood. He probably never will. I feel sorry for him sometimes, because I don't think he'll ever have a real deep commitment to anyone while he is like this. If ever I meet and get involved with someone who is a conflict avoider again, I will run a million miles away. <P>Take care of you and your precious little bundle. I'm sorry I don't have anything nicer to say.<P>hugs for you<P>Jo