For those of you who don’t know, my wife of 12 years and 3 children has decided that she is not “happy” and is not “in-love” anymore. She wants a divorce. We are living together and planning on splitting at the end of May. She thinks that we can use mediation and not have any need for lawyers (we’ll see). We have agreed to 50/50 joint custody (she has them 1 week and I have them the next). Obviously this is not what I want and I am trying a lot of different things to save our family. Thanks to “SoTired2000”, I have a nice Easter letter for her (got my fingers crossed). <P>Now on to my question.<P>I know that children always pick sides and play one parent against another. It seems in divorce this trait is heightened. I have already seen our oldest daughter start pulling away from me at times and siding with her mom. The thing that my wife fears the most is that the children will find out that she is the only one that wants the divorce. She believes that this would be “destructive” to her relationship with the girls. She didn’t think about the “destructive” behavior when she decided that she wanted a divorce. I do not want my children to pull away from me cause we do have a great relationship. I never have and never will “bad mouth” my wife to the children, but should I ever tell them that I don’t want to divorce? Should I ever tell them that their mom is the only one who wanted to divorce and she refused to try to reconcile? Should I let the children read some of the letters that I have written my wife?<P>Any thoughts are appreciated.<P>Love, Bill<P>There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.<BR>

That's a really touchy subject. Since my wife split, my son recognized that this was all about her. I told him I would do anything to save our family, but that was not what his mother wanted. Since she's exposing him to the OP on the weeks she has him, I'm pretty sure he's got this figured out. Kids are really pretty observant. They just hide it well at times. <P>I try to keep any discussions with him about his mother as neutral as possible, although that can be difficult at times. I have let him know that he can discuss anything with me, but that I prefer not to hear about the OP.<P>Interestingly, he actually told her that he didn't like all the time she spent with the OP, and her response was "tough" I think this has a lot to do with his request for me not to date until his mother divorces me.<P>It's really tough to keep things even, but the kids aren't at fault, and as difficult as it is, it's important not to vent to the kids. They know that the wandering/abandoning spouse is really the one who destroyed the family. Reinforcing that does us no good in reality, and only hurts them in the long run.<BR><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

I think you have to ask yourself what purpose it would serve? Would it make your kids feel better, worse or change the feelings that they have about either of their parents? That should give you your answer. What is difficult is holding your tongue when you want to tell your kids something that would benefit yourself yet hurt their feelings. To them I don't think they really care who wanted the divorce, they just hurt that you are getting divorced. They want and NEED a loving and close relationship with BOTH parents and I think it's wrong if any parent says or does anything that could jeopardize that.

To me it is a no-brainer - it is wrong to lie to your kids, and that includes lying by omission and leading them to believe that the divorce is a mutual decision when it is not. <P>Even if they never find out, which is unlikely, lying is wrong. And if they do find out, they will no longer trust you either. <P>

I'm having a hard time with the fact that at some point down the road I will be faced with just such a choice. I have told my wife that I will not lie to my children, and even though they are way to young to understand all the facts, I will not tell them that I wanted the D. I have no intentions of telling them about her A, as far as I'm concerned that is her nightmare to deal with in the future. But I'm very afraid that a few years from now, one of them may ask a relative of family friend what happened and they will tell them. Neither my W or I would want theat to happen, but that is certianly a possibility. <P>I am leaning more toward telling them the truth, that Mommy doesn't love Daddy any more, even though Daddy loves Mommy with all his heart. That the decision was not made by me, but I have to go along with it. It doesn't come right out and say that Mommy was the one that broke the family apart, but of course that is implied. <P>My wife is very concerned about this, as she should be. She is worried that they will end up hating her. While that may happen, I don't think that they will ever hate her. Sure they may be mean to her in the short term, but the long range relationship remains to be seen. For what it is worth, I'm sure they will hate me for a while too. I'm not as concerned about this as my wife is, but it has crossed my mind more than a few times.<P>I know that there are books on this topic. Someone posted a few titles the other day. I wrote them down, but the paper went threw the washer. My fault, I do all the laundry these days. As a professional to help. I'm not a big fan of the mediation process, I have to say I will trust a lawyer much more than I would trust my W. (this assumes we get to this point, which I hope we never do)<P>Good luck, I can't say my advice is great but it is most likely the plan I'm going to use unless someone else has a better idea.<P>40

Have you discussed sitting down together and talking to the children together? because it does affect them as well..<P>You could explain it like..your mom and I are divorcing..<BR>let her explain to them her side..and you can tell them it's not what you want but that because you love her so much your willing to let her go so she can find whatever it is she's looking for..and that you'd hoped things could be different<BR>but that it's just not working out that way...<P>Yes, it may put her on the spot..but she will have to face at least part of the consequences for her actions at that time by having to vocalize it to the kids..she may find it difficult to do..but it's something she'll have to do eventually..because they will ask..<P>

Boy one day I will start going to bed I hope as all the undead do & sleep maybe 6 hours instead of 2 but till that time comes it is better to give than receive.<P>For all of us who got the I never loved you routine after a decade or more & are loving mothers & fathers concerned with our chidren, consider this: Never Loved You means I can not give you my heart anymore to break, bleed, or to damage any further as I no longer trust you. I know this is a shock & I feel as we post some other poor unsuspecting soul is about to hear those very words (May God watch over & help them all tonight & every night). This is a tragedy no doubt, but as my wise Father In Law told me your chidren are the only innocents here not you, not me, not my W, not yours. <P>I don't suggest you lie to your chidren I suggest you change your perspective. As in a conversation the one responsible for getting the message correct is which ever role "you" have at the time, speaker or listener. In other words if you accept 51% of the responsibility in all you do, you & only you wind up in the drivers seat of "your" life. You are in the unique position to positively influence your children at all times, why should this situation which they have 0 responsibility for, be any different? <P>On a softer note as an example when I told my child there was no Santa Clause, after the last Christmas I may have together with my W having been told months before she to never loved me & wanted a D, (all issues big & small are better learned from those who truly love you than the streets, or anybody else for that matter - ooops does that mean I just said I have to teach my son about sex - oh well) I told him in the usual but effective good news / bad news style. The good news turned out that I am not just your Dad I am the one with your Mom that has guaranteed these past wonderfull gifts that you requested, & did it with style (yes, even when it is me that does the actual talking I find a way to give her some of the credit, even at a time when I knew she was wanting out)! MY sons response (God thank you again for such a joy in my life) was WOOOAH you guys are the ones who did all these neat things (like put his bike right outside the living room window with an 8 foot pole with a huge red ribbon on top & note from Santa) & actually paid for all this stuff, "WOW thanks Dad, thanks Mom".<P>I know at times like this it is hard to find the positive, but if you forget yourself & your W because I know your children mean more than life itself it will be a good start. You both are in the unique position to shine here if you realize whats at stake - your childrens future which is one of the reasons God blesses a marriage. I know right now you do not feel blessed - that will pass with time. Don't have regrets that are about your own flesh & blood - me and my wife used to joke to make an important point that may bear repeating: "We were only related by marriage our son is related to us each by blood Forever & Ever"! Change your perspective to include them 1st not your situation, however hard it may be there will never be anything more noble to accomplish in your life.<P>By the way for my W although it took me 6 months to see it I realize she is not asking for this D out of selfishness, running away from our son, she is just trying to survive what turned out (I of course at the time could not see) to be a very diffucult marriage for "her". She as I stated is not running away from her son she & I will help him in any way possible - and I will help her to move on with or without me - as I still love her with all my heart and must let her go because it is all I have left to give her. I like you also do not want to divorce & I have told my W I can not give her that - that however is "I know" a minor point as I to go to mediation this Monday, as my W & I will legally separate on May 1st when she leaves - she as I knows that if she decides its over at the end of our year long separation she by herself will & can file the D papers. A lot can happen good & bad in a year, but that is now in Gods hands.<P>You Have the Power to Change,<BR>You have at least 3 reasons to want to do better,<BR>Slow & Steady (its not a race),<BR>May God Keep You, Your W & Your 3 Children Safe & Warm,<P> <P>------------------<BR>StarCrossed<p>[This message has been edited by starcrossed (edited April 13, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR><B>Have you discussed sitting down together and talking to the children together? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We have sat down to discuss things as a family a couple of times. The last time we sat down, our middle daughter asked "Why don't you want to stay together as a family?". My response was "Honey, I want nothing more than to stay together as a family, but right now that can't happen". My wife believes that this statement was pointing the finger straight at her and she will no longer sit down as a family to discuss items.<P>Thanks to all for your posts and keep them coming.<P>Love Bill<P><P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

To not point your finger at your wife it would be difficult if there are only 2 people & 1 says "It Wasn't Me" (a rather popular song these days - on the radio to).<P>I think there is a way to do this easier, please look up a recent post on April 11th titled "Told my Son, weight loss & sleeplessness" by me. There is a brief description of how 2 days ago I & my W told our son - it went really well mostly because the emphasis was on him not us - I must admit I was expecting to open the floodgates on this one untill it dawned on me that these concerns for my son were "mine & mine alone" & may not be his, turns out they were not concerns of my sweet & sensitive 9 yr old son.<P>I know you have already started the process of telling your children from your perspective - you are not bound by any contract here other than your own moral beliefs. Remember your children whenever you look at your W, as it will be most difficult to not as they are as much a part of her as they are a part of you.<P>Slow & Steady (its not a race),<BR>Forget anger, Avoid pain, Find love, Find happiness, <BR>God Bless & may the Son keep all of You warm today,<P>Tim

Hi LH,<P>There are many opinions on this and it varies. The age of your children, emotions (not always something that can be hidden), living arrangements, finances, relatives, changes in schedules, etc. all have an impact on the children. <P>So, here is my 2 cents. While I believe that what the children are told should be kept to a minimum, telling is important. They already know something is happening. They may not view it to the same degree as you or they might. Each child has their own personality and may react differently. As a parent, even if you give one statement there could be 3 different reactions, you as the sane one will need to be as prepared as possible for this. <P>My 6 year old is very alert. You see, children talk among themselves at school and while playing. They may be giving their viewpoint and opinion to others and both you and your wife may not even know it. Our son has made some comments about his dad that shocked his father. "If dad is a bad dad (based on a conversation he overheard H say) and a bad father, then why would he want to get married to another lady and be a bad husband to her too? I think my dad was a good dad for 6 years, why did he get bad?" There are more but you can see his mind is thinking. <P>Your wife does not want to hurt her children. But her actions already have. By not saying things clear enough for her children to be able to work with it is more of a cruel action. It leaves the impression that the children are not worth an explanation. Some may disagree, but I know others would not. <P>I did not have to tell my child that it was his father's decision to leave the family, my child already figured it out. I encourage discussion with him about how he feels at least once to twice a week now, used to be more frequent and he easily tells me what he is thinking. One of his fears was that the children in school would find out that he no longer has a dad at home. This is of more concern to him than his dad actually not being there. <P>See you need to find out where their concerns are not just what you think they are worried about. That was an eye opener for me and helped me know how to work with my child. While H did not want to focus the 'blame' on himself, our child was told, there will be changes, dad is moving out and that is your father's choice. My son thought about it and his response was, if dad does not want to live with 'us' mom, then can we get a new one? While that statement hurt both H & I, we saw that our son recognized his need for a father @ HOME!!!!! You know what, that got H thinking.<P>For me that is the key, while H is in the fog I try to utilize every chance I can to say or do things that gets his gray cells moving. Keep him thinking helps him help himself get out of the fog!<P>Just my thoughts. <P>L.

Thanks to all who replied. This is a very touchy subject for me. My stbxw and I had a discussion over this topic the other day and she said "Well Mr Morality why don't you call Dr. Laura about this, I bet she'll agree with me". Well Friday I called and got onto the Dr. Laura Show and guess what she agreed with me. She said, just as many of you did, that we should be honest with the children. We should not give specific details or try to harm the parent.<P>Thanks again all and hope everyone had a Happy Easter!!<P>Love, Bill

Have you thought about going to a counselor? Every counselor I've ever talked to, have recommended total honesty with the kids. THats not to say we should say "Hey, your dad had an affair and left me", but if one spouse doesn't want the divorce, its not fair to lie either. Thats just my opinion, but I'd seek out the advice of maybe your church, pediatrician and go to a counselor . There are also programs at most schools that deal with this too and there might be a professional there also to give you some insight.<P>I think how you handle it now, might determine their views on divorce even as an adult. I don't think any of us want our kids to grow up and land in the situation we're in.<P>Hugs, Dana<P><BR>

LostHusband,<P>I too told my STBXW that I would not lie to the kids. If they ever asked about why we D, I would tell them the truth. I won't talk bad about my STBX, but I won't lie for her either. Since then, both of my older kids have come to me with that exact question. My response was:<P>'I don't want this divorce, and if there was anything I could do to fix it, I would. But I can't fix this. I love your mother very much, but she does not want to be married to me any longer.'<P>Both of my kids seem to have understood this, without me telling them specifics. I don't believe that she is a bad mother, and I do not want to come across to the kids as the one that bad mouths the other.<P>Griz

Awesome thread... I've learned a lot. Starcrossed, your point about your W not deserting the family but protecting herself is spot on to my H position as well. Very sad to have driven his tender heart to that position.... Lord, have mercy!<P>I'm struggling with how to tell the kids (ages 3, 5, 7). We'll likely wait until we move but have learned heaps from you all... like keep the focus on the kids and how it will and will NOT affect them from having access to both of us.<P>We're actually considering moving into a duplex with a joint backyard and have an open backdoor policy. Well, this suits me because I'm not the one who wanted the Sep/Div so at least we won't be across town from each other and only interacting when we pick-up and drop-off the kids.<P>The kids are innocent - they didn't ask to come into this world and THEY DESERVE the very best we have to offer. My H can't offer any more of himself to me as he feels he'll lose himself. He'll have to come to his own decision about that as I can't convince him of anything else. <P>So, I feel like I'm laying my own life down for the sake of the kids and my H... as I'm letting him shape the city we move to based on his best job offer.<P>I'll be BACK asking for advice - or reading the wealth of advice already given on how to explain this in the most appropriate way to the kids... though maybe there won't be much explaining to do because we sleep in separate rooms now anyway, moving next door won't seem so strange to them maybe...<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once