I expect to be excoriated for this, because it's contrary to the Harleys ideals, but flames are cleansing so....<P>First a little background for those who don't know the story. Got the speech last Aug. Plan A'd big time. She moved out a month later. Continued plan A & got counseling, but she never participated. A month after that she said she no longer wanted to try. I continued to let her know that I still thought we were worth another shot, but never, ever got a glimmer of hope from her. As a matter if fact, her first words that night back in August when I asked if we could try were: "I don't want to get your hopes up". To her credit, she never did.<P>It is now past the date I told myself I would wait through, and I have made up my mind that I cannot ever open my heart to her again. She thinks that we're going to transition from husband and wife, lovers and life partners to just "good friends". Well, you know what? I don't want to be friends with her. She is obviously continuing her affair, and exposing my son to the OP despite my sons request for her not too. She chose to end the marriage and break up the family, she took everything she wanted and left.<P>I do not enjoy her company, yet she continues to e-mail me recipes, lets me know about specials at the market & wants to chat at my sons soccer games. But she has <B>NEVER</B> once given the slightest indication that she wanted to try.<P>My question is, should I send her a letter letting her know that although I want the relationship to remain cordial for the sake of my son, I want to limit it to that only. That I don't consider her behavior as an example of "friendly". Or would I be better off to just keep my mouth shut & let her figure it out for herself? I have never once expressed how she's really made me feel because I know she doesn't care. That much is obvious.<P>I don't feel sad right now, honestly, I don't feel much of anything, save for a bit of anger and a tinge of disappointment.<P>I don't think this would be a plan B letter, as I don't have any love left for her to protect. She's made sure of that. I'm not sure a letter is warranted. Maybe plan C for see ya! <P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<P>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited April 17, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited April 17, 2001).]

Nick,<P>I remember when you first came here. You have grown so much and also taken time to help many others along the way.<P>I really don't think anyone is going to flame you for deciding your done with Plan A. We all get there sooner or later, some of us, just have the ability to hang on a lot longer. <P>I went and read the links again for Plan A and Plan B just because its been over a year since I was really doing the Plan A. <P>I never did a Plan B, because at one point, I finally realized there was no hope, and I was hurting myself and my kids by hanging on unrealistically. <P>I do regret not sending a Plan B letter. And if it's not a specific Plan B letter, since you feel your love has been lost already in Plan A, I still think its something I wish I would have done.<P>I would have loved to write my ex a final letter. Telling him all I wanted to say but never got the chance. The reason I didn't was the OW was so closely involved with my kids, and I was afraid he'd show it to her, causing us more grief. I did write a letter to my now ex MIL and she went and showed it to ex and OW, so that was another reason for the fear.<P>I think you have every right to say what you feel like saying. You have worked hard, tried to understand, patiently waited and she continues to keep the affair. Maybe the letter would provide a little closure for you.<P>One thing you mentioned, is you don't want her constant emails, recipes, etc. Well I think Plan B, can ask for no contact EXCEPT for the discussions about the kids. That might solve the issue of the unwanted emails, and also, put her in a land of reality for a moment. If you don't want to be "friends" , but just "friendly" for the sake of the son, thats your right. <P>It sounds like she really wants to be "good friends", (as does my ex), but its really too hard to do that. Not this soon anyhow. My girlfriend and her ex, after 6 years are now good friends, he fixes her car , etc, but this soon after, I feel its too painful, and you get too many "what if's " Popping in your head.<P>Sorry for the ramble, guess I'm emotional this month , but I think a Plan B letter , or closure letter can't ever hurt. Maybe you can go to the Plan A/Plan B forum and find some that other people posted.<P>Keep up the great job with your son and continuing to work on yourself . I don't think I was doing as well 8 months after! <P>Hugs,Dana<BR>

Dana expressed exactly my thoughts exactly!<P>Write the Plan B letter.<P> <P>Jim

Nick,<P>It is time for plan-b....<P>Write the letter....<P>Send it....<P>Bill

c00ker,<P>There is a time to be true to yourself. Given a little time, a friendly relationship can develop, but it needs to be a two way street. Both need time to get friendly again, it doesn't happen overnight. And it is soooo hard to be friends after you've been lovers.<P>My vote is to write the letter. I would suggest that when you write the letter, take time to edit and rewrite it with an eye on the fact that you still have to raise and educate your son together. Say what you mean, mean what you say, don't say it mean. There is nothing at all wrong with saying that "I just don't feel all that friendly toward you right now."<BR> <BR>Good Luck, <P>Bumper

Hey Nick,<P>I was going to suggest sending out a post to Jim or Bill because I thought they both sent the letter, looks like they already beat me to it!<P>I'm sure you can post it for comments if your comfortable with that. I know you'll do great with it.<BR>Hugs, Dana<BR>

Nothing here to contribute to your situation...more like I want to say thank all of you for posting these ideas...i lurk over here once in a while and I learn each time.<P>It looks like the msg is a loving break. As I think it should be, always but esp. when kids are involved.<P>Thanks again...d2<P>

I'm feeling the same way after yesterday's latest rejection. I don't think I have any love left for my stbx, if I do it's buried awfully deep now. <BR> The fact is I'm just dog tired of it all. I'm tired of hoping, of waiting and of playing good girl while there is never crumb thrown my way by him. Under those circumstances it is nearly impossible to keep hope and love alive. I feel terrible for throwing in the towel but I think it's the most humane thing I could do for myself right now.<BR> I wrote him last night letting him know that he needs to move on a divorce and that I'm ready to move on. I am, there's a lot of other men in this world and I have myself and feel good about that. I deserve my own chance to look for happiness as he did and now I just want it over with. It's time.

Nick<P>IMO the WS wants to remain "good friends" as a way of easing their guilt. "Good friends" is for the WS's benefit - certainly not for the BS's. I imagine somewhere deep in their fogged thinking, it's even kind of an ego stroke..."he just couldn't live without me completely, so I dumped him as 'gently' as I could and have remained a supportive friend in his life." Total bull - <P>Friendly ex's should be reserved for the person you dated a few times and mutally decided the chemistry just wasn't there for anything more. Not for someone you intimately shared your life and love with for years only to have them throw it away without a backward glance. <P>I'm not sure a real Plan B is called for here - that letter is meant to protect your heart and PRESERVE the love you had for your wife. What you want is a "get it through your fogged head that I am moving on without you" letter. A "I will not be an emotional doormat any longer" letter.<P>I say "letter" but what I think I really mean is "moment of communication." Like Dana, I have had letters I've written to my stbx - where I've poured out heart and soul - be shown to the OW for entertainment benefit. It bothered me some - though I knew I'd written them for me more than for him so it didn't bother me as much as it could've. If you're comfortable with the idea that OM might read it or your stbx might show it to your son one day to prove that "Daddy gave up too," go ahead and write it and send it. If you're not comfortable - I'd say to write out your thoughts (so you can be clear and remain unemotional) and just read it to her at one final meeting - then take the letter with you.<P>Closure...it's closure you're seeking. Closure to the pain, closure to your feelings, closure to her ability to inflict further emotional damage. Do what you need to do to get it.<P>Lisa<p>[This message has been edited by soon2b_alone (edited April 17, 2001).]

I agree that closure is what you need and you should do whatever it takes to get there, save anything that would hurt your son. I too am faced with my ex wanting to be friends (he just sent me a manuscript for me to read) They cannot let go of the relationship so they hold on to what they can. Trading recipes and things like that is a bit much. Can't have the cake and eat it too, I say. <P>I think that even if you do not mail the letter that you will discover that it is cleansing anyway. The truth is though, is the letter just words or do you mean what you will write? Will you eat your words if she does try to come back? I think the letter is a start to feeling free. Actions come first in Harley land....then feelings, remember?<P>I think it is a plan B letter in every sense of the term. It will help you preserve any love you have for your wife by helping to alleviate some of the pain you have about all of this. You don't want to build resentment and keep opening that wound? Letting go in turn will make the relationship that you have with her as parents of your child better. <P>And I do not think that letting go and releasing yourself from pain is contrary to Harley's ideas or anyone on this board (save maybe a few). You have been here a while. You deserve some freedom. <P>Take care!<P>

Nick,<P>I did a verbal plan B statement, meaning, I told her she was the only one that could change this. As disrespectful as i might be, I think she wanted to wait for me to say something, but i put her to the divorce simulation as soon as possible, and like you, no reconciliation peeps. However, i truly think she is better off where she is than where we were, not to say we couldn't be fixed, just i am not the best fit for her in her new mode of life.<P>Although you have been given many great opinions, one more slight difference: my time table for waiting for a discussion from WS was one year, ended second week in February. For a whole year, i was ready to discuss anything, etc. during the final month, my letting go accelerated. But, after the year, with nada and tons of looney bin behavior, excuses, sympathy gathering, etc. i am satisfied for myself.<P>I think a plan B letter is great, but you need to wait longer before legally closing the final option.<P>I think after you are legally divorced, then the rules change: plan B and there is no love to save, don't bother expecting anything because you have only a business relationship left, cordial, friendly demeanor, co-parenting goals. don't put up with any feel good crap, etc.<P>One last point i wanted to make: i know you go out on sea trials for extended periods of time, as I did and lots of my friends did. most of my sailing friends are divorced once.<BR>the long time away from home for you requires that you marry an I_T_ personality type, one that generates energy from within, and thinks first, so that emotions don't need to be shared so readily as a driving force.<P>I believe that without realizing it by both of you, the time away played a significant part of your marriage's demise. I have been there on ships when people come back to the ship after going home, and seeing nothing in the house, no furniture, nothing! and it is the long days and nights that most women can't take emotionally, regardless of whether they agreed to live that way for the money.<P>good luck, just my opinion. go for it! can't hurt at this point!<P>tom<P><BR>

Nick,<P>Tom makes a good point that I can relate to, the long days and nights waiting is very hard. Seems like something I have gone thru recently. I don't think its an excuse for an affair, but I think some people just aren't capable to handle that distance as much. I know I'm not one of those types. <P>Dana<BR>

Well, here's my first try...<BR><B><BR>Dear Xxxxx,<P>I am writing you this letter to let you know that although I wanted more than anything to save our marriage and our family, I have given up all hope of that ever happening. The past 8 months have been the most difficult of my life, and although I am healing, I still feel pain over the loss of you and our family every day.<P>A long time ago, you stated that we would always be friends, but for right now, I don't feel very friendly towards you. Your decision to leave broke my heart, and it is going to take some time before it heals. <P>I have tried to be fair and compromising throughout this ordeal, and I would like our relationship to remain amicable, but I would like to limit contact and communication solely to custody and divorce issues. I would also ask you to please respect my feelings about being exposed to your friend at events we that we will attend together for Xxxxxxxx. You have been considerate about this so far, and I appreciate it.<P>Someday I hope that we can be friends again, but right now the wound is too raw for that. It still hurts to see you, knowing how much I cared for you, and to know that you no longer have any feelings for me.<P>I want you to know that I never wanted this, but I have accepted your choice. I feel no animosity toward you, but it would be best for me right now if you could find it in your heart, in memory of what we once felt for one another, to respect my desire for closure and limit contact with me.<P>Nick</B><P><BR>Tom & Dana,<P>I offered to change jobs, I offered to move, I offered anything she wanted. All she wanted was someone else. I'm OK with that now, but I can't imagine why she would imagine I would want to remain friends with her. That's baffling to me. Almost insulting. But, I've learned a lot in the last 8 months. About myself, and about her. I'm very disappointed in her choice, but I know that I did everything that I could, and I can look at myself now realize that although I made some mistakes, I didn't quit and I didn't run away. <P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited April 18, 2001).]

((((Nick)))<P>Like I said before, I don't justify her actions in the least. I was a very lonely and neglected wife and I never once thought of cheating, or another man, just fantasized the one I had would show me the affection I was looking for. But thats just me, and up til now, I've never cheated and after being betrayed I really don't want to cheat either. I can see how you might fall into it after being betrayed though.<P>I have watched you grow and learn since you've been here and I believe you when you say you are ready for this next step. I also think you have every right to send your letter and ask for your "space". What you mentioned is very realistic, right now, it is just "too" soon for the "friend" thing. And you know what, a few years from now, if you have a new woman in your life, you may still NOT want to opt for the "friends" title, but that will always be your right after what's happened.<P>It's great that you care about your son and are willing to be pleasant and accomodating for him. I still think your on the right track. I only wish I sent the letter, but was made fun of when I sent one to his mom.<P>Hang in there, Dana<BR>

Nick,<P>Wow, your writing style is very powerful and very effective. It communicates the idea tactfully, firmly and clearly. It really is excellent.<P>You have been through a lot, and you have come a long way. Before you send it, are you really certain that you have passed the point of no return? No one can predict the results, but if you are not already passed that point, once you send the letter, my guess is that the issue will no longer be in doubt. It will take all the suspense out of the matter.<P>Bumper

Thanks Bumper,<P>It's nice to see a minor in English wasn't a total waste <P>Honestly? If she were to ask to try to work on us exclusively I would have to consider it, but to be perfectly blunt, I really only find her exterior attractive. I guess if I had to make a snap decision, I would say yes. And I guess that obviates the intelligence of sending the letter before her divorce proceedings are complete. That's the reason for me taking this sounding.<P>Upon further reflection I suppose I'm strong enough to let my actions communicate to her that I've accepted this and am moving on. Telling her how much she's hurt me and that I want her to leave me alone really only helps me, and certainly isn't going to affect her. And it's possible that I could sabotage her willingness to remain flexible about custody issues, which is critical to me now.<P>I think I'll just hang on to the letter for awhile. I suppose that sooner or later, she'll catch on to my indifference to her overtures of friendship, and figure things out on her own.<P>Thanks Bumper. One of the things that I've come to appreciate about this place is the diversity of opinions, which really help expand my field of view.<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Nick,<P>I think just the writing of the letter is kind of cathartic, don't you? It's like prepping yourself to a time when you are sure and are willing to send it. <P>I waffle back and forth between hanging on to the last shred of hope and giving up. The problem is my pride, I think. Giving up sort of feels like giving in...like in accepting the inevitability of it, it somehow gives tacit approval to what stbx did. Brain mush!<P>Perhaps the first step is to just not acknowledge the "friendly" emails. No "thank you" replies or anything...think of it like SPAM...have her emails forwarded to a separate folder and wade through them once in a while for custody/divorce communiques.<P>I can really relate to your request to avoid exposure to OP at your son's events - it's nice/good that you gave her a pat on the back for giving you at least that much respect - as you know my stbx takes great glee in doing just the opposite.<P>Just fair warning...when it does get down to the nuts/bolts and reality of the divorce being final - not just the waiting period - it almost always gets at least a little contentious and nasty...it is the nature of the beast.<P>You are a good man. You have bent over backwards giving your wife space and time to find her way out of the fog. But you do need to take care of you first now. You'll know when the time is right to give her your letter...maybe next week...maybe on the courthouse steps...but you'll know.<P>Take Care!<P>Lisa

Hey Nick,<BR>I know exactly how you're feeling. I'm still on that rollercoaster myself. I got the same as you, the same words too in the beginning, "I don't want to get your hopes up" and all along she had no intention of trying to save our ten year marriage, she was eager to get things on the fast track with the OM, her co-worker. I wrote numerous letters to her trying to get her to come around and talk to me and telling her what this was doing to all of us but none of them got a single response. I too wrote a plan B letter and it still sits on my desktop in my computer never sent and there it'll most likely stay. The ultimate test that she now longer gave a crap about me was when I suffered a motocycling accident and was laid up for awhile. At the time she still had access to the house to get personal belongings and such for our daughter. The pain I was in at the time was actually a distraction from the pain of heart break. Anyway I was lying on the couch and could barely move, much less fix myself anything to eat or get anything to drink, she came in and just looked at me and laughed. Not asking how I was or if she could get me anything, just getting things for our daughter, saying good-bye and leaving, cold right? This from a woman who used to tell me how much she cared about me.........That was one year ago to the day. She also wanted to be friends and I told her straight out that there was no way in hell that I could be her friend after the way she treated me, friends don't do that to each other. She sneered at my comment and stated that I should just learn how to take this whole thing like a man. We don't talk at all anymore, very rarely to communicate things about our daughter that can't be relayed via e-mail. I still care for her but there is no way that I'll let her know that anymore and I feel sending her a plan B letter now after we're divorced would just get silence for a reply anyway. So you have to do what you think will get you through this and to closure as quickly as possible for your own sake of sanity. Although the situation with me is not perfect, I do have to admit that the no contact has helped me tremendously. Best of luck Nick.<BR>Jax.<P>

Nick,<P>No flame here either...I say write the letter..<P>Yes, it will probably it hurt a little bit..but it will<BR>bring the closure you need to the relationship..and help you<BR>to move forward in your own life..<P>and who knows..she may realize that she's really lost you..<BR>and what she's giving up...and do a 180..then what??<P>What I mean is..that maybe by your always being there the<BR>way you have she feels that it's never really over..but once you tell her good-bye..it's over..no more..it may hit her like the 2 x 4 that you've been wanting her to feel...<P>You can tell her that you really don't want the e-mailed recipes and that the no contact except for your son is what is needed now..and that you know she's found someone else<BR>and you don't want to interfer in her relationship with this <BR>OP and by her continuing to contact you except for the child..that it's not healthy for her "new" relationship..<BR>so in order to give her that chance....your letting her go..<BR>and she should (if she hasn't already) contact a lawyer, so that you can both move forward with your lives..and if you <BR>could add that you have or will be contacting a lawyer yourself..and if she has any questions she can contact you through them...<P><BR>Good Luck...we all know how hard it's been on you..

Nick,<P>If your not ready to send the letter, than just hang onto it. I would guess that even when you send it, you'll still have some bad days and possibly regret it, but no more than we all regret the situation we're in anyway. And you never truly know what WS is going to do. There was a time when I "thought" I gave up completely and exH did come around and make a half attempt to work things out, and I said no. I think it was bad timing on both parts mixed in with too much nastiness on his part. I'm just saying sometimes when you let go, and give up, its the wake up call for the WS. But if you feel the slightest doubt, than hang onto the letter. Write a new one everyday if you want, thats what I did for a while.<P>Jax,<P>That is very wrong about the accident and her behaving that way. Its hard to believe the people we once loved could be so cold, and most of the time, its only because "they have someone to fall back on". I know mine would NEVER act that way if he was single, but he would when he had someone in his life. One time someone from MB sent me a quote (I collect them) and it said "You never truly know your spouse until you divorce them". I thought that was perfectly true in my case.<P>Hugs Dana<BR>