Hi ya folks. Thought I would let ya know about last night, I am a bit confused about it. <P>We were out for awhile to a game, and after getting the kids in bed he was workin out as I sat quietly. I dont want to force relationship talks. After awhile I asked him if he planned on ignoring me until I leave, that he doesn't speak much to me at all. He deinied ignoring and asked if I had something in mind to discuss. Not really, I just wanted to talk to ya!<P>Anyways, I said goodnight. He mentioned that he is not ignoring me. I said all this time it seems that when we do talk I just kinda let ya know whats on my mind and you listen. That I did not want to just "vent", I just missed his conversation. So, I feel that you are ignoring me because you never initiate conversation anymore. I said that I realize this is just a "feeling". I just miss you I said. I fully expected him to study, but he came into bed, AND did not do the usual turning away to the opposite side either!!<P>I started by saying I feel so transparent lately. He said he thought I was hiding something. No, not what I meant.<BR>I told him that I was posting here, and my "deficiencies" seem so obvious to everyone. Like what? Well, me controlling and manipulating. Havent I been telling you that for years Dara? <P>Anyways, I was telling him as JL so keenly pointed out how my control issues have kept me "safe." He was bothered by this, as he said that he has never done anything to me to make me feel insecure or unsafe. I acknowledged that. I pointed out about how right after he first told me he wanted the D how I confided in my mom. Asked her to keep it private. She told everyone. I said that I never even recieved that "safeness" from my mom. The primary bond in life, a bond that should be completely trusted. I have been in a trust none mode since childhood. It has kept me safe, but it has been my undoing also. It was difficult to establish trust with him when I never recieved it even from my parents. But that he has never given me a reason to doubt his intentions for me. He HAS always had me in mind.He could not understand this. I encouraged him to read my posts; but he said that he wouldnt do it. If I wanted to share something with him than I could. But that is hard to do when he automatically becomes defensive!<P>I wanted to be intimate, he said it would just cause problems. (MY fault, as I said to him in a rage last week that he is taking advantage of me, making me feel like a whore.) Well, we did, but he just lay there doing nothing really. No touching, kissing or the like. I kinda think he is testing me, to see if it will cause problems. Heck we did not even finish because I got a muscle cramp and he wouldnt take over. It made me feel pretty low, because I know that I am the cause of his withdrawl.<P>Is this good? Is he slowly testing the waters? Or is it just more of the same withdrawl. I wish I had answers. I fear greatly showing him my love and affection, opening up to him. I am scared!! To be refected and hurt even more.

Okay Sweetheart, I'm gonna do what I do best, and you'll be mad, but stick with me...<P>I only need to quote one line you said, because it colored the ENTIRE conversation you had with your H: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>After awhile I asked him if he planned on ignoring me until I leave...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Instead you should have said:<P>"H, I would love to talk to you. I'm feeling lonely right now. What would you like to talk about?"<P>What he got was a passive-agressive opening line that made him feel like he can't do anything right and you're gonna leave anyway, so why bother.<P>Do you agree with me? If not, how do you see it??<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Yep, Sheryl, that line lept out at me too.<P>Dara, when you express your honest feelings, you have to do it in such a way that you don't judge your H.<P>You disrespectfully "judged" his motives and intentions. You read into his actions what you thought was there, when in reality you have no way of knowing what is going on in his head.. <P>Sheryl's opening would have had the same affect of opening the conversation, without love busting to start it off.<P>(((hugs))) BR<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR><B>Okay Sweetheart, I'm gonna do what I do best, and you'll be mad, but stick with me...<P>I only need to quote one line you said, because it colored the ENTIRE conversation you had with your H: <P> <BR>Instead you should have said:<P>"H, I would love to talk to you. I'm feeling lonely right now. What would you like to talk about?"<P>What he got was a passive-agressive opening line that made him feel like he can't do anything right and you're gonna leave anyway, so why bother.<P>Do you agree with me? If not, how do you see it??<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No it doesn't make me mad. I really wondered how to even ask him if he wanted to talk. That statement was a "protective" one. I knew it was not the wisest. It did not seem to bother him though. But I do need to learn to do "better". "I'm feeling lonely right now" throws out a weakness from me. But I see your point, you are right. <P>Soooo Sheryl, what do you think about the rest of the events?<P>

Hi LAIG.<P>I have been lurking a little while in the back ground and I'm coming out to try to help a bit. <P>First let me say that I was on the recieving end of what you are going through right now. Execpt for one thing in that my wife had a much, much more difficult time growing up than you did I asure you. You could read a few of my past posts to find out more..<P>I have a few things to say that come from my heart. <BR>first, Let go of the anti-trust thing. It is absolutely imparative that you must let go and trust your husband. He very well may be testing the waters. Love him, let go of the distrust. there is NO place for it at all. period. Trust completely. <P>second, as NB said. No pasive-Agresive stuff. I found that this came from distrust. If I was expecting to get into a fight that I was going to lose I would also try to get the first lick in before I was takin out with the first reply hit. <P>Third. Slow down. You seem to want to communicate but neither of you remember how. The old pathways of communications are not dead, they just haven't been used in so long you have forgotten how. Yes you may fall off the bike but at least you remember how to ride one. Get back on. <P>More later, I gotta go work<BR>Tex.<P><BR>

Hi Dara,<P>I think that telling him about this place and what JL said (and the rest of us) was EXCELLENT! When he said the comment about "Haven't I been telling you that for years" a good response would have been: "Yes, but I couldn't hear you. I'm sorry about that. I hear you now."...<P>The intimacy...tough one. My ex and I could NEVER get it back after my affair. It was the "beginning of the end"... partly my fault, for feeling like a whore (just like you said) and partly his fault, because he *forced* me to be intimate to make himself feel better... and then after his affairs (the last two, after mine) he was in no shape to be close to me. He *hated* me. I did what you do, which is why I am so very wise (wisdom borne of pain, like I've quoted all over this site)... I pushed, begged, pushed AWAY, blasted with my mouth, cried, yelled, begged some more... really quite unattractive and didn't make him feel like staying very much. Then, I filed for divorce... and about half way through the process, when he would NOT sign the papers... he showed up on my doorstep in tears... with the signed papers. He was letting me go. By then, his tears made me sad for him, but I was so very tired of the whole rollercoaster ride that I grabbed them and ran (not literally, but I did take them without question) and I just did not care enough to stop and THINK about what was happening. Then, to top it off, I began a relationship with someone else, the man I am with now, and the rest, as they say, is history.<P>I have regrets. I don't want you to have any.<P>I did work hard to save my marriage, but not hard in the right ways... not all the time. <P>So, at 42 years old, after a lifelong marriage, I am beginning again. Thankfully, I have a **good** man in my life. I sure coulda picked a dud to punish myself more. I got lucky. That doesn't mean I don't regret having gotten here the way I did. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Thanks for your reply Texas. I realize this too about the trust issue. It is a 2 way street, he doesn't communicate his thoughts/feelings/dreams with me because he does not trust me. Understandable. And, I am afraid of loving him, or expressing to him my hope/thoughts/dreams because I am afraid of being hurt/rejected/divorced.<P>No win situation huh? I do need to take the first step. By doing that I fear that he will continue as in the past to shoot down any hopes of us.<P>Hell I dont want a "written waruntee" that he will try. It may or may not work out. Just to be open to the possibility of "us." And my love for him; that it will not burn him again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR><B>Hi Dara,<P>I think that telling him about this place and what JL said (and the rest of us) was EXCELLENT! When he said the comment about "Haven't I been telling you that for years" a good response would have been: "Yes, but I couldn't hear you. I'm sorry about that. I hear you now."...<P>The intimacy...tough one. My ex and I could NEVER get it back after my affair. It was the "beginning of the end"... partly my fault, for feeling like a whore (just like you said) and partly his fault, because he *forced* me to be intimate to make himself feel better... and then after his affairs (the last two, after mine) he was in no shape to be close to me. He *hated* me. I did what you do, which is why I am so very wise (wisdom borne of pain, like I've quoted all over this site)... I pushed, begged, pushed AWAY, blasted with my mouth, cried, yelled, begged some more... really quite unattractive and didn't make him feel like staying very much. Then, I filed for divorce... and about half way through the process, when he would NOT sign the papers... he showed up on my doorstep in tears... with the signed papers. He was letting me go. By then, his tears made me sad for him, but I was so very tired of the whole rollercoaster ride that I grabbed them and ran (not literally, but I did take them without question) and I just did not care enough to stop and THINK about what was happening. Then, to top it off, I began a relationship with someone else, the man I am with now, and the rest, as they say, is history.<P>I have regrets. I don't want you to have any.<P>I did work hard to save my marriage, but not hard in the right ways... not all the time. <P>So, at 42 years old, after a lifelong marriage, I am beginning again. Thankfully, I have a **good** man in my life. I sure coulda picked a dud to punish myself more. I got lucky. That doesn't mean I don't regret having gotten here the way I did. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>The Queen of one liners speaks!! <BR>No offense. I think that maybe I am staring to "get it" now that I hear from you more Sheryl. I did apologize for never hearing him before. Told him that I hear him now. He still refuses to read my postings, says it should come from me. I did say it is much easier to be open when writing and that it wont put you on the defensive with me. <P>As was the case when he could not understand why I have been in this trust only myslef mode. Thought it was HIM. That he did that to me. He knows that he has given me no reason to not trust him ,but thought I did it TO him. <BR>I told him that I would have done it to ANYONE, but unfortunately it was you who has never hurt me and just gave and gave.<BR>

BTW Sheryl,<P>The intimacy issue last night wasnt related to affairs. we have been having wonderful times in that area even recently. It got better after D day. I want him ALL the time. Pretty frigid before. <P>Last night was different because I told him last week it made me feel like a whore bacause he says he doesnt want me /love me yet still "F**** me." My words. Bad move.<P>You know the whole woman/man thing about how they see sex. Women see it as an emotional/ mental bonding as well as physical. Most men (key word most) dont. Purely physical. <P>He said he doesnt want to "lead me on" with being intimate, so since it has caused these problems he would rather not do it at all.

Let me make a suggestion. <P>Sometime when you feel he is ignoring you. Or even better you think his mind is on something else. Calmly, nonsalontly(sp?) quitly walk by him and just lightly, very lightly brush you finger tips up his arm. If he stops and looks at you just smile a loving smile and then go about your business. Don't say a word. <P>If he does say something like "What was that for?" Say something like "I was just thinking of you". Something very casual. No gushing or lovey/dovey, nothing heavy. <P>The next thing I would suggest is just look at him as if he was the only thing that mattered in the world. Don't say a word. Just look. Once again when he spots you doing this he will reply with "What was that look for?" Say something like "I was just thinking of you". Something very casual. No gushing or lovey/dovey, nothing heavy. <P>I think trust start as a small little seed then grows. Be honest, let it grow. Go slow. It will not be ez, and it will take some time. <P>If you keep beating the dog, the dog will always think hes going to get hit, and never trust you. <P>Tex.<P>(send me your e-mail address, if you want other ideas.)<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AgoodManInTexas:<BR><B>Let me make a suggestion. <P>Sometime when you feel he is ignoring you. Or even better you think his mind is on something else. Calmly, nonsalontly(sp?) quitly walk by him and just lightly, very lightly brush you finger tips up his arm. If he stops and looks at you just smile a loving smile and then go about your business. Don't say a word. <P>If he does say something like "What was that for?" Say something like "I was just thinking of you". Something very casual. No gushing or lovey/dovey, nothing heavy. <P>The next thing I would suggest is just look at him as if he was the only thing that mattered in the world. Don't say a word. Just look. Once again when he spots you doing this he will reply with "What was that look for?" Say something like "I was just thinking of you". Something very casual. No gushing or lovey/dovey, nothing heavy. <P>I think trust start as a small little seed then grows. Be honest, let it grow. Go slow. It will not be ez, and it will take some time. <P>If you keep beating the dog, the dog will always think hes going to get hit, and never trust you. <P>Tex.<P>(send me your e-mail address, if you want other ideas.)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Funny, I thought of the "beaten dog" theory also. And yes a small seed does grow. Your suggestions make a GREAT way to start small to see how receptive he is to me.<P>E-Mail:<P>Dara_Lynn2001@hotmail.com<P>

Dara,<P>You said : <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Understandable. And, I am afraid of loving him, or expressing to him my hope/thoughts/dreams because I am afraid of being hurt/rejected/divorced.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do hope you see the irony of this statement. You do love him, you have children with him, you are threatening to leave because you love him. So what are you afraid of? That he loves you? The second part of the quote hits it on the head, you are afraid of being hurt, rejected, divorced. Well with the exception of divorce you are already there aren't you? And divorce will come if you don't love him that is for sure.<P>So where are you? Dara, be honest with your H. Tell him what you have told us. Love the man even if he doesn't love you (or more precisely, even if you don't THINK he loves you). NB's post to you was dead on, now wasn't it? <P>Dara, do you believe in Santa Claus? Probably not. I do! My kids are getting older, much older, but I still believe. You know why? Well, I am glad you asked, why? <P>Because Xmas is a very special time. Yes, for the religious aspects, but I want to discuss another aspect. You see parents during Xmas do something rather extraordinary. They give gifts to their children. Nothing surprising about that, but what is interesting is that they give the gifts anamolously. The parents don't get any credit for those gifts being under the tree. Some elf named Sanat Claus brought them to the kids primarily just because they are kids.<P>Now I believe in Santa Claus because I find it remarkable that such a spirit exists in us all. It is a time when we give without ever expecting any thanks in return. We do it just to see the joy on the childrens faces. You see Santa Claus is within us. We give simply to see joy. No thank you's required.<P>I mention this to you because in your deliberations and fears, it seems to have forgotten the joy you see on your children's faces when they get gifts from someone they will never meet, but they already know. Your H could use such a gift. Do you really need the thanks? Wouldn't it make you happy to see him smile? Wouldn't it make you happy, for him to look forward to seeing you?<P>Dara, the things you fear are already there. What you haven't done is used the good things within you to change your life and your families life. I do understand why you grew up without much trust, but that doesn't mean you cannot learn the lessons Sheryl (NB) is trying to offer you. Her cost was very high for those lessons, yours can be much lower if you listen to her.<P>Dara, you are a good person, and you do have Santa Claus within you. I fear that you have forgotten these things and grew up way to soon. Me, heck I just may never grow up. <P>I thought for the most part that what you did last night, was very good. If you want your H to see what is going on with you here, print out a thread and let him see it. Talk about it,but don't be defensive. You are trying to save your marriage, and you are learning how to love him. Those aren't bad things you know.<P>Talk with him again tonight. You can see his reluctance to be intimate. There are many reasons for this. What you have said, but most likely his inner battles. He doesn't want to hurt you Dara. So talk softly to him, ask him a question and then listen, it may take minutes for him to answer give him time. You will learn much from just watching him try to answer you. You will see the battles Dara.<P>Have patience with him and yourself. If you are thinking of not leaving discuss it with him. There are many advantages to your children, and you that you remain.<P>Dara, I see a lot of progress within you. I do believe that many of us see the potential you possess. Heck, you even got AGMIT out of lurkdoom. You are making progress even if you don't know it.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

All I can do lately is ditto everyone else! As JL said, you are making great progress!<P>I just want you to know that I am still reading and following, even though I don't have that much to offer. I'm great at what NOT to do, but when it comes to what TO DO, I don't have a clue, not having been in a healthy relationship EVER! ! <P>I really really admire your brutal honesty with us, and your dedicated work on yourself. You are a very special lady!<P>And hey, who knows, one day if I ever end up in another relationship (in the far distant future) I'll be here asking you for advice! <P>((hugs)) BR<p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited April 17, 2001).]

Just Learning, <P> <P>Thank you for the pat on the back. <P>I know he doesnt want to hurt me, just didn't think of that was his reasoning to distance himself physically. Good point. He is struggling internally, I know this is very hard for him. He said las night thats he knows me better than I know myself. But didnt have a clue what was going on when I mentioned how much I am learning about myself. He also said that I confuse him. I think that he does know the " old me" but doesnt understand the new me and how I am not out to get him or hurt him.<P>Pateince and time. <P>Stop breathe and rest.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>All I can do lately is ditto everyone else! As JL said, you are making great progress!<P>I just want you to know that I am still reading and following, even though I don't have that much to offer. I'm great at what NOT to do, but when it comes to what TO DO, I don't have a clue, not having been in a healthy relationship EVER! ! <P>I really really admire your brutal honesty with us, and your dedicated work on yourself. You are a very special lady!<P>And hey, who knows, one day if I ever end up in another relationship (in the far distant future) I'll be here asking you for advice! <P>((hugs)) BR<P>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited April 17, 2001).]</B>[/QUOTE<P>Advice from me? NOT<P>Thanks for the pat also. I respect your rebukes here, and well heck it does feel good to know I am making progress.<P>Hope I am not wearing you guys out!!<P>

Wearing ***US*** out? HA! Never happen!! <P>((((Learning as I go))))) Big Hugs!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sorry Dara. Your e-mail address is a notta.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AgoodManInTexas:<BR><B>Sorry Dara. Your e-mail address is a notta. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I just set it up. Havent used it before, the primary is joint account.<P>BRB<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B> <BR>I just set it up. Havent used it before, the primary is joint account.<P>BRB</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Might be case sensitive.<P>dara_lynn2001@hotmail<BR>Let me know<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B> <P>