You are a very insightful woman. How did you get so smart. I wish you could jump inside my head and talk to me when H is around and tell me alll the right things to say and how to act.<P>You are right. ANGER. I do have anger. I think I always had anger. I don't seem to know how to communicate with someone who doesn't do/understand what I want them to and this makes me upset. Not really angry. But I do have anger with my H. and the anger is NOT about the affairs. While there is some anger there about those issues, I am more angry that he just gave up without a fight, just when we have 3 small kids and our family was just forming and coming out of the NEEDY stage.<P>It is not that the A x2 is not bothersome, hurtful, etc. I know that I can forgive him. I think I have in regards to the first affair but this second one, I am not sure yet.<P>Maybe I am trying to humiliate him back into my life. Sometimes I don't know what I feel anymore. This person says do this, that person says do that. People support me in what I say but never kick me in the [censored] like you do. I need to hear the truth, the real truth. I can always seem to justify what I am doing but it may not be the right thing. I do want to save my marriage if possible.<P>I though I Plan A but I had filed the divorce and I felt weird about it. I probably didn't Plan A good enough. But the interesting thing is that When I wasdoing the plan, we got along, happy, talked to each other, he touched me in innocent ways, we chatted about non issues, but we never talked about us. That is when I wrote him the I love you letter and again he told me it was over, he was moving on with his life, get over it, blah blah. <P>Tell me how not to be angry. I can't protect my children from their father's OW in his life. I want to but I can't legally. I can't change his mind about how he is behaving. I guess pointing out all the things he is doing in his life that I feel are wrong are not gaining me any points. I sort of feel wishy washy because I don't want to be a doormat but I don't want to get a divorce. Maybe I don't really underastand all this.<P>Any advice woould be helpful.<P>Kids are calling me, got to go.<P>Thanks, Hopelessmom

You are angry at your H and his behavior and justly so. But if you want to work on your marriage you need to let that go and help him. Sounds so unfair. <P>Quote<BR>You are right. ANGER. I do have anger. I think I always had anger. I don't seem to know how to communicate with someone who doesn't do/understand what I want them to and this makes me upset. Not really angry. But I do have anger with my H. and the anger is NOT about the affairs. While there is some anger there about those issues, I am more angry that he just gave up without a fight, just when we have 3 small kids and our family was just forming and coming out of the NEEDY stage.<P>You stated right here that you can't communicate with him when he doesn't do what you want. You get angry and push him away. Everytime you get angry with him you just give him more justification for leaving. Stop doing this. As so many wise people have said don't threaten him with things you don't really want (ie D). You want to control him back into the marriage but that won't happen. He is not anywhere near coming back to you on bended knee begging forgiveness. That may take some time and you need to reach deep inside and find the strength and patience to wait. <P>Remember that H is deep in the fog and anything he says or does needs to be taken for what it is....fog induced. You stated also that when you were Plan Aing that he responded to you. Okay, so why stop? The results may take longer than you wish and no you won't be able to control him that way either. He will waffle in and out but you need to resist the urge to become angry when he draws back. <P>I am not very good at typing my thoughts. I get so far ahead of myself in ny brain and my poor typing skills don't keep up but I hope I have made some sense here. <P>Please Hopemom don't throw in the towel yet. You have the strength deep within to do this. There are lots of places for your anger keep a journal, scream into your pillow, write here. Remember you can only CONTROL yourself.<P>Take Care.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by HopelessinAZ (edited April 18, 2001).]

Hopelessmom:<P>I think these lines are the most telling:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You are right. ANGER. I do have anger. I think I always had anger. I don't seem to know how to communicate with someone who doesn't do/understand what I want them to and this makes me upset. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Stop right there. Think really hard about what you just said. You are a lucky lady, because you have just honestly pointed out the root of your problems.<P>When people or situations do not do what "I want them to" I get angry. <P>My anger disappears when I remind myself that I am completely powerless over other people or situations.<P>It sounds to me that you have spent much of your marriage and life frustrated because things kept working out less than perfectly, and if "they" had just listened and understood and DID what you told them too...it WOULD have been perfect.<P>How do I know this? How did I get so smart? Because Hopelessmom, I've been there, done that, and gotten the scars to prove it.<P>I'm going to suggest to you something that my Al-Anon sponsor told me to do. She said BR, stand up, and draw a circle around your feet. I did. Then she said, OK, BR, what's inside the circle? Well, unfortunately for me, there was nothing inside the circle except me. And she said, yes, and THAT is the ONLY thing that you have control over.<P>As long as I spend my life trying to control people/places/things outside of my circle...I will be frustrated and angry. My control over anything except myself is only an illusion. <P>I have control and responsibility over myself, and my decisions, choices and actions. And that's it.<P>When I started to truly apply this concept to my life, it became much easier to treat other people with the respect that they deserve. The pecking order, with me on top as the supreme being, vanished, and left me with the job of learning to have empathy and compassion for others and their struggles. I didn't have to frantically think up answers or solutions or "fix" others. I had to learn to respect other's choices for themselves. I also had a lot more time on my hands...I wasn't busy coming up with manipulative schemes for the welfare of others!<P>And that is only a beginning course to letting go of others as a path to freedom from anger!! It's very easy for me to write this stuff now. Learning it, and living it, required a great deal of blood, sweat and tears. I am a very stubborn woman who doesn't "let go" of much very easily.<P>But as for your anger now:<P><B>Anger is simply a passionate desire to make a bad thing<BR>stop happening.</B><P>Anger is a scary, frightening feeling. Sometimes the words rage or fury would be a much better description. All I can tell you is that if I had to describe my anger, I would tell you that it was a infinitely dark black pit where there was no life, no light, and I was desperately afraid of being sucked in and losing myself.<P>But anger is just that, anger. It's not bad, or good, or sinful, or any of those other things that we sometimes assign it. Its an emotion, just like joy, or sadness. <P>What is dangerous is when we choose to let anger control our behavior, and we react. Anger can many times be beneficial, clueing us in on situations where are being mistreated. <P>You have the power to recognize that you are angry, and then choose what you are going to do about it, instead of blindly lashing out.<P>Supressing it or denying it is not the answer.<P>That anger has to be let out. If you keep it inside of you, it will literally eat you alive, or in my case, suck me in to my death. If you read my profile, you saw my description of the years that I suffered from a debilitating depression. That depression was my anger turned inward on myself. I literally nearly DID die.<P>But right now, you are letting it out on your H. You are angry that he doesn't do what you want him too. And when he doesn't do what you tell him, it feels like a slap in the face, an insult, complete rejection. And to hide your hurt, you attack.<P>If you could just get him to understand YOUR feelings, and what YOU think, and if he would just DO what YOU say - everything would be perfect...right? <P>Several points about how destructive this behavior is to your marriage:<P>Enabling is my first thought. You actually enable your husband to continue his unacceptable behaviour when you assault him with your anger. He simply thinks "Hopelessmom is a real b&^%, what did I ever see in her, and thank GOD I found OW, who really loves me and treats me how I deserve!"<P>Think about that for a moment. While you are 100% NOT responsible for your H's choices - you are participating what is called "creating a comfortable environment for the unacceptable behavior." Yep, you are participating in continuing his affair!!<P>My other thought was punishment. When we set ourselves up as the Supreme Director in our marriages, we disrespect our spouses deeply. We begin to treat them as less than ourselves. It's easy to fall into this trap...especially when they are making decisions that to us are so clearly bad. You have to remember that you CAN NOT read his heart. You do not have the ability to understand what he is thinking and why he is doing what he is doing.<P>But since they are so clearly doing what we think is wrong, we naturally feel that it is our "job" to punish and reprimand. Are you beginning to see how disrespectful this behavior is?<P>It is not our job as spouses to make sure that there is punishment or consequences to their choices. Now, clearly, we are the instruments of those consequences many times when we react to their choices. But our reactions are our choices, and should be motivated by our healthiest thinking, instead of an unhealthy lashing out in anger.<P>For example, it has been my H's choice to continue dating various women while we were in counseling with Steve Harley. Was I angry? YOU BET I WAS. But, 2 things happened. One, I remembered that he is an alcoholic, in the fog of booze and his affairs. I can not judge his choices based on MY moral conscience and thinking. Two, I chose to protect myself. I didn't choose to revenge myself.<P>I went to my lawyer out of a healthy motivation to care for myself. I wasn't there to hurt my H. So there will be consequences for my H - and that consequence is happening because of me, but I wasn't acting out of the mistaken idea that it was my job to punish him!!<P>On the topic of humiliation: I was raised by fear. My parents motivated all of us children with fear and very little love. We were constantly threatened with brutal spankings, angry outbursts, and even more subtly, the fear of being less than perfect. We were driven by fear to be perfect.<P>And so, in my marriage, I made a grave mistake of trying to "motivate" my H to be a better person by humiliating him. I called him horrible names - I told him that he was cowardly, selfish, a liar, without honor or conscience....and do you know what he did? He ran away from me. He did NOT come to me on bended knee and say "You are right BR, and I am wrong, teach me how to be perfect like you!"<P>I can't give you the answers or solutions to your relationship. I don't know them. All I can do is share with you my experiences and how I grew to get where I am at today. In Al-Anon, we call that Experience, Strength and Hope. <P>Plan A is about changing you to be a better person. It is most certainly not about becoming a doormat. Perhaps you need to take a much harder look at what you have done to contribute to your situation - and work on YOU.<P>Leave your H to his business, and focus on yours. I certainly don't recommend that you try to bully or scare him into coming home by threatening a divorce, especially when you don't want one.<P>Do what you have to do to protect yourself and the kids so that you have money to pay the bills. After that, why not take a good hard look inside yourself? <P>One thing anger does very well - it makes a GREAT crutch for us to lean on, so we don't have to look in the mirror at our own faults.<P>(((hugs)) BR

Whew, I wrote all that "stuff" and I forgot my suggestions about letting out all that icky black anger (or whatever color yours is!).<P>1. Vent it. I do this by writing, writing, writing. My harddrive is filling up with all of the letters I have written to my H, screaming in anger, crying in anguish, and just pouring out my emotions. And he never received a single one of those letters, because they were nothing more than giant love busters. Write but don't send. If you need to have someone validate your emotions, then vent it here. We all have been there and felt those things and understand. Your H won't.<P>2. Buy a child's punching bag from Kmart. Hang it in the garage, and go for it!!!! Take out that rage on the bag, and hit it until you aren't angry anymore. The anger will come back, but it won't have nearly as much control over you the next time. And that punching bag will be available!!!<P>3. Housework. My house is sparkling clean when I am angry. Geez, I could use some anger about right now!! LOL!!! There's nothing like physical labor to work off that emotion.<P>Whatever you do, get it OUT of you. If you leave it inside of you, its going to destroy you, and your marriage.<P>((hugs)) BR

Thanks for the insight. You are right. I have done all those things, even to my marriage. Taking control, names, blah , blah. I am angry, not consumed anymore by it. What makes me angry is H saying I know your angry, but we still need to do what is best for the kids. So when I say, I am doing what I feel is best for the kids, he says I am not. I am making this more difficult ie, the divorce. I am doing all this,ie, asking for money, not mediating, out of anger and vindictiveness. However, I am not mediating because I am not emotionally strong enough to mediate a divorce with him. It hurts too much. He tells me I just need to get over it and move on withlife. Do I just let it all hang out, my true feelings and emtions, cry etc. I was under the impression that I wasn't supposed to let him see that I am needy, emotional, groveling , Human. <P>Yes, we have hurt each other. So H says, we need to talk about us and what we are doing here. I don't want to talk to him about that stuff. So he just keeps on me. Why won't you talk, I say not now, Well when. He gets at me until I explode.<P>Will be back, kids are calling.<P>Hopelessmom

Hopeless in Arizona:<P>Maybe Iam going out on alimb here but allow me to clarify your "take" on MY situation.<P>1. I have NOT threatened my husband with a divorce. He alone wants it.<P>2. I AM NOT attempting to "control" my husbands recovery. Who said he is in recovery? He still pushes for divorce. That is unless you know something I dont.<P>3. I told him I am moving back home because I love him and it is hard to cohabitate as a "partner" knowing he doesnt want me. This was not a threat to him. What I have been discussing with JL, BR, Orchid and NB was WHY I chose that path. Self discovery my friend.<P>It seems that you have a very negative opinion of me. Yes, that is MY perception. But you in medical terms "diagnosing" me with anger issues, (new to me), and really colored the facts of my situation. Hence my defensiveness right now.<P>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited April 18, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited April 18, 2001).]

Learning as I go,<P>Many apologies to you. My opinions were from what I remebered from reading your thread. If I misread them I am very sorry. It is not my intent to berate anyone for their actions. All I was trying to point out was that anger and control towards your spouse do little goos in the end. <P>If I have offended you I am sorry I will edit my post to Hopemom.

Woah, Dara!!<P>HopelessinAZ's response didn't seem to be off base at all.<P>In fact, I had thought about pointing Hopelessmom at your threads also, because there IS a great deal of similiarity. HopelessinAZ just beat me to it.<P>(just an aside but will you people stop being so darn hopeless, its confusing!!) <P>I didn't think HopelessinAZ's summation was disrespectful at all.<P>She said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Not BR sorry but I read your post and it reminded me of another post by LearningasIgo from April 16 topic Last night. Learning has lots of control and anger issues as well. Wants to save her marriage but being unable to control her H recovery she gets angry and threatens him with moving which she does not really want.<P>Am I wrong in seeing some similarities btwn you two? You are angry at your H and his behavior and justly so. But if you want to work on your marriage you need to let that go and help him. Sounds so unfair. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She didn't say that you were threatening with divorce. But you ARE threatening him with the move. In fact I think the consensus on your threads have said you were!<P>Control IS your issue, and anger is a big part of it. You are trying to control your husband into recovery and back into your marriage.<P>Dara, look how quickly you jumped on this thread in anger...do you think you might be taking some of your frustrations out on HopelessinAZ?<P>Do you really not want other people to learn from your threads??<P>(((hugs))) As always, this is not a personal attack, but meant to help you!<P>--BR<P>(hopelessmom, the baby is yelling, I'll get back to you in a bit!)<P><BR>

BrambleRose,<P><B> YEP! YOU SAID IT ABOUT RIGHT!! </B><P>i was the target of anger, and i told my X that the only way she communicates with me is with anger.<P>Yes, i can absorb alot, and yes, i was picked at to get a response at times, and it just provoked me when i had nothing to discuss and add.<P>Using anger at someone is pure manipulation, manipulation by fear, negative consequences, etc. it is not a problem solving technique. It is not a loving technique.<P>it goes along with arrogance, and being a snob. <P>After i began responding with anger to the anger, our relationship fell apart, but to be hounded constantly for problems that weren't mine, its the pits, it sucks raw eggs.<P>I was yelled at for my X's insecurities and problems. now how does that solve them? I was yelled at for exercising my rights within our agreement. I was yelled at for answering questions with my opinions and thoughts/feelings. I was told that i answered certain ways for reasons X thought were my reasons. very disrespectful judgements.<P>when i told X about this, she said she could not longer communicate with me. well, now look at us, and i can tell you one thing: when you find someone with whom you can have healthy conversations and discussions, the relationship looks very rosy, nice, and it is very easy to fall in love with a nice conversationalist, one with no disrespectful judgements, and one that doesn't take responses personally.<P>good luck, but look no farther than yourself for your contributions to the demise of your marriage, and it could be more than 50% if you want to have a scoring system.<P>

Learning as I go,<P>I think you read way too much into what I wrote to Hopemom.<P>I only referenced your situation to Hopemom because I thought you had gotten some good advice from people that she may find helpful.<P>I did not say you had asked for a D, but Hopemom is thinking about going there. <P>I'm sorry that you are not in recovery but I thought from your post that H sounded like he was trying. Never thought thinking someone might be in recovery would be such a bad thing.<P>I never diagnoised you as having anger issues. I'm not the only one who thinks you sound angry. Believe me I understand that anger. we all have it, I was just expressing the need to let it go when dealing with H. I even said let out anger to other outlets. <P>I think you were extremely quick to judge. I never sat in judgment of you I only referenced your situation. Remember I was writing to another about her situation not yours.

I am back. <P>I also am not getting a divorce because I want one but presently, I am getting a divorce to protect myself, my kids from being out on the streets so to speak. I am not trying to hurt my H, not at all. I don't want to make him suffer but what he feels is right and what I feel is right in regards to divorce, ie $, stuff, is opposing.<P>I tried to let him go and work on myself and I am. This anger business is something I can face and get control of. I know logically I can't control anyone, now it has to enter my emotions behavior. <P>I saw my lawyer today and I will be continuing with divorce proceedings as of now. We just di the "complaint" We will also ask his lawyer to have him continue to pay for child support, maintenance, and upkeep of house temporarily. I have no $ and I have 3 kids here with me. I have to protect them.<P>My H said I told him to leave. Should I ask him back home and live here and not work on our marriage, just work on myself and let him do whatever he wants. <P>I want to grow and be a better person, wife, spouse, mother. I don't want to beg him back into my life, I wouldn't mind leading him but beg, no. He is not willing to be lead now.<P>Oh, all this is so difficult. <P>HOpelessmom

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HopelessinAZ:<BR><B>Learning as I go,<P>I think you read way too much into what I wrote to Hopemom.<P>I only referenced your situation to Hopemom because I thought you had gotten some good advice from people that she may find helpful.<P>I did not say you had asked for a D, but Hopemom is thinking about going there. <P>I'm sorry that you are not in recovery but I thought from your post that H sounded like he was trying. Never thought thinking someone might be in recovery would be such a bad thing.<P>I never diagnoised you as having anger issues. I'm not the only one who thinks you sound angry. Believe me I understand that anger. we all have it, I was just expressing the need to let it go when dealing with H. I even said let out anger to other outlets. <P>I think you were extremely quick to judge. I never sat in judgment of you I only referenced your situation. Remember I was writing to another about her situation not yours.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok here we go:<BR>First out of respect to Hopelessmom I apologize for the distraction. I too face many of the same issues. <P>Hopeless in arizona..<P>I was quite quick to jump down your throat. I feel very sensitive about how I am handling my marraige. This comes from many many mistakes I myself have made. I do apologize to you sincerely, as in this case I WAS quick to provocation. My weakness, not yours. I have a hell of alot on my mind, as I am sure you do as well. This is why I do not usually post advice because I would regret someone else making my mistakes, and I feel so caught up in my little drama that it is hard to peek outside objectively.<P>Lord knows that my situation is purely my fault. My affair, my control, my mistrust, my indifference. I am trying my dammdest to make things right. To not just fix it but change myself. Not a tune up but a rebuild engine.<BR>Every part of me seems to have been a screw up in my marraige, and I am working so hard on me right now that any criticism I may have percieved bothers me. Again, my weakness not yours.<P>Sincerely, Dara<P>

Hopelessmom, <P>Please change your name!! The statement you amde about feeling wishy-washy, because you want to stand up for your rights (being a doormat) but you dont want a divorce. <P>This is something I face as well. I want our marraige, but cannot comprehend how to plan A and also protect myself from his hurt and rejection. I too have 3 little ones, and am bitter how he threw it away w/o a fight. Never gave me the oppurtunity to work on us. But ask yourself this...would you have been able to work on your yourself for your marraige as is now needed as effectively and sincerely as now if D was just consideration for him?<BR>I took many things for granted many years. And now I am frustrated as heck that he wont give me a chance. But you know what mom?<P>that anger wont get ya far. You know that. Read "love must be tough" by Dr. Dobson. In your present actions, ways, would you win him back? Is that how he fell in love with you in the first place? Bacause dammit he had to give you a shot? NOPE. So what do you do? Put on a mask of love, kindness, sincererity, safeness for him? Why even bother. Its manipulating. Do it for your self. Be sincere. Do some soul searching as to your part in the demise of your marraige. Not to construe a plan to get him back, but to learn from it. To grow. Dont lose your self in the typical anger and bitterness. You cant control him when he chooses to hurt you, but you can control how if you will let him hurt you. Try to be objective and rational.<P>I know you love him. Be that person you were when he fell in love with you. Not for him, but for you. It means letting go of anger bitterness and resentment. Face it, worse case scenario you will still need to maintain contact with him for the kids. Do you want to be the bitter dejected wife which is soo common?<P>You are better than that. Change your screen name, be positive that this is not the end of the world although it sure as hell feels that way. Key word: FEELS. When I run on pure emotion, I become very depressed and hopeless. Not good for me, the kids, and will not win him back to me. Not based on pity.<P>I sure as heck dont know much. So take my advice with a grain of salt, as I am immensed in the same hell that you are in and dont have any real objective soloutions myself!!<P>Dara

I read Dobsons Book. That is what I started with. Let him go and be free. I told him go, get out, have your mistress, do whatever you want but don't involve the children in your affair. It is not fair to them.<P>I guess part of my anger at him is the way that I perceive he is doing harm to his children. His first A involved our babysitter and he involved the children throughout, Until I stopped it. I wouldn't let him take them anywhere without me. Somehow that demised ( I think) their relationship. Now, he is involved with another woman, living in the same house although he says not sleeping with her but sleeping on her parents side of house. He still takes the kids over there, they play, nap, eat dinner, have slumber parties, go to movies, skating, etc. This woman is a widow of 1 year and also has 3 children. Now, IMHO, this relationship is not going to work out (right steve Harley?) and again, the kids will have to move on with another relationship he becomes involved with. THAT MAKES ME MAD. My oldest daughter 5, says to me in tears, since H left, If Daddy never met Mrs. X, none of this would be happening. That kills me inside and it makes me mad at H. We went to see a therapist in regards to handling the kids and he told us that "h should spent time alone with children". H thinks that even though he is at OW house, he still spends time alone with them. My H has not been alone with all 3 of my kids for more than 24 hours in all their lives. He has had me, OW#1, or OW#2. See, I can feel my Blood pressure rising just typing about this. <P>I believe in the MB but I think when you have kids, things twist alittle. Maybe I am wrong.<P>Hopelessmom

Dear Hopelessmom:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>So when I say, I am doing what I feel is best for the kids, he says I am not. I am making this more difficult ie, the divorce. I am doing all this,ie, asking for money, not mediating, out of anger and vindictiveness. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here is something to write in huge letters on your bedroom mirror: "His truths do not have to be MY truths!"<P>Just because HE says your motivations are anger and vindictiveness does not make it so. Just as you can't read his heart, neither can he read yours.<P>My honest assessment, from the little information you have posted here, is that your H is very worried and trying to keep things under control. Remember those consequences that are not our job to make happen to our spouses? Well one of those consequences is getting ready to bite him on the behind and he knows it.<P>But all the same, do ask yourself very honestly: Are you doing things that you don't have to? What ARE your motivations? Are your requests and motions to the court unnecessarily vengeful?<P>I do understand that you have to get court ordered support...that's a necessity. But you and I both know that you probably have the room to be a lot more nasty than you need be. I'm not saying you are...I'm just saying be careful.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>However, I am not mediating because I am not emotionally strong enough to mediate a divorce with him. It hurts too much. He tells me I just need to get over it and move on with life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you do not want to mediate, you don't have to. If you don't feel strong enough to do so, don't. There is nothing wrong with caring for yourself!!! You might consider requesting seperate mediation sessions however, if you are worried about being bullied with him being present.<P>Again, HIS truths do not have to be YOUR truths. So what if he thinks you need to just get over it? You can get "over it" whenever you are darn well ready too, and not before!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Do I just let it all hang out, my true feelings and emtions, cry etc. I was under the impression that I wasn't supposed to let him see that I am needy, emotional, groveling , Human. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Honestly, I can't tell you. I wasn't able to reconcile with my husband, and I have NEVER in my entire life, EVER been in a healthy relationship with ANY man. Not my dad, not my brothers, my old boyfriends, not my husband or his brothers and father.<P>Ok well maybe I have a pretty healthy relationship with my 2 sons....<P>So take my words with a grain of salt.<P>Do you pursue him while hysterically crying and begging him to come back? I wouldn't think so.<P>I think that you hold your head high, and change yourself. Stop attacking him and calling him names. Be pleasant, and polite, but stand your ground. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Yes, we have hurt each other. So H says, we need to talk about us and what we are doing here. I don't want to talk to him about that stuff. So he just keeps on me. Why won't you talk, I say not now, Well when. He gets at me until I explode.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tell him that if he wants to talk about "us" that he can do that by first talking to Steve Harley. Let Steve be your mediator for that "us" discussion.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My H said I told him to leave. Should I ask him back home and live here and not work on our marriage, just work on myself and let him do whatever he wants. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You did tell him to leave. To quote you, you told him to "get out". I understand your reasons for doing so. I had the same reasons when I asked my H to go. But notice that I "asked" my H to go, and we both discussed it. I didn't throw him out with anger or to get revenge. <P>He's already out of the house. Personally, I wouldn't ask him to move back home unless he's demonstrated a desire to repair your marriage. But that's me. You might ask some of the wiser more experienced Harleyites here!<P>You can work on yourself and just let him do what he wants right now. He doesn't have to be at home. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I want to grow and be a better person, wife, spouse, mother. I don't want to beg him back into my life, I wouldn't mind leading him but beg, no. He is not willing to be lead now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is not willing to be CONTROLLED by you. I'd forget all that 'leading' stuff. It ain't gonna work until you have figured out how to let go, not control, and lead all at the same time!!! I don't think you should beg.<P>I think that you should quietly go about learning how to be kind and respectful to your H, and let go of him. And that's it. Work on your anger issues and your control issues. If he likes what he sees, maybe he'll want to come home. That's what plan A is about. <P>Plan B may be in order when your divorce truly gets rolling.<P>At some point, you'll reach a spot where you will know that your marriage is finished, or recovery will begin. But it doesn't sound to me like you have reached it yet.<P>(((hugs)) BR

There is a thread on this board "when do I know when to give up" <P>I want to print out the thread and give it to my H, Would that be a disrespectful judgement. My thoughts are that I want H to see both sides of the story. <P>I probably shouldn't do that. What do you think?<P>Hopelessmom

Hi Hopelessmom,<P>Geez I don't know how I missed your reply until now.<P>I don't know if I am really qualified to answer your question. To some extent, it's considered "education" of your spouse, and is a love buster.<P>But sometimes, when I was unable to communicate my needs or point of view, printing things out or emailing things to my H was what I did. Honestly, I think it was probably a love buster for him.<P>I still do it. Still probably love busting. I can't help but feel that my H might be touched by something, knowing as I do that he is struggling with alot of things right now.<P>You might wanna get the opinions of a some more "expert" people here - like I've said before, I know a few things very well, and everything else, I'm not very good at, or still learning myself!

yes, it is a love buster, BUT only if you give it to him, NOT if he finds it in a convenient place, laying around and reads it without any interaction from you.<P>courtesy,<P>michelle warner-davis<P>

LOL, thanks for the clarification!!!<P>I guess that any time he visits, I could wrap the pages of the articles on the toilet paper roll or something....maybe he might accidently read something...NOT <P>Unfortunately, my H wants to be ignorant, and I have to respect that. I guess that means no more shoving helpful articles in his face, although now that the divorce is on, I only shove parenting articles at him! <P>Well Hopelessmom, I guess you have your answer!

I am pretty sure that H would see any insight I would provide as a LB and he wouldn't read anything. He has previously said "you know I don't read" So..<P>I just recieved mail, enclosed in the official copy of the complaint, and a nice letter to H atty stating you better pay or else we go to court. h is not expecting this, although in one discussion I told him I would take him to court if I had to. I guess I just returned fire at him and now the battle ensues. I better get out my shield of armor because he will come out fighting. I am scared. I am scared of what he says to me and how what he says to me is not nice and not true. I know this but when you are being attacked, it is hard to use all those logical gray cells. <P>I am NOT trying to hurt my H at all. But these are the consequences of a divorce. I am not asking for any thing that i don't deserve, that is fair. <P>When he comes at me would it be right to say, H, this divorce is what YOU want, I don't want this but your actions have made it necessary to protect myself and protect our children. I would rather us go into counseling, since all the cards are on the table, and see if this marriage is salvegeable. I love you, I always have loved you and I feel that I, you , we, and our family deserve the best fight to save this marriage that we can offer. I know you feel differently now, but that is what I want.<P>H probably won't hear from his A until Mon or Tues. Can't wait. <P>Hopelessmom