Sheryl read some of your story, mostly your stuff from march when you came back and gave update. I (as a ws) came here and posted on a board which seems oriented to bs, precisely cause I wanted feedback from the other side. Your story is interesting cause it includes being the bs and a ws as well as choosing the the op, against the conventional wisdom. Lori is an inspiring (and amazingly tireless)advocate for the bs position, and speaks clearly re the reconcilliation/divorce issue in general. Her heartfelt contributions speak well to her concern for marriage and people.<P>Having found myself in this unexpected place in life, I have been doing what I always do when lost and confused, I cope by reading, studying, talking, seeking, analyzing till I start to feel some fundamental understanding develop. This has not been easy because of the emotion, emotions I buried long ago. What I was lacking was the stories and peer review of others. Friends and relatives are not all that helpful, is much more satisifying to be talking with folks who have been/are there. I will answer stuff about me on the thread I already started, but I wanted to comment on this issue of the other people. Some say you must put them out of your life until divorced (interferes with assessing whether you can reconcille), others leave for the other person, some say even if divorcing should not "date" other person cause rarely works, be alone, heal and then seek another life partner when you are stabilized emotionally and hopefully wiser. You (sheryl) have experienced this, and sort of agree with not taking up with op, yet you did anyways, even leaveing your home and children. Something some who posted to you find incomprehensible, yet people do this all the time......why?<P>Some would just say those who do, are emotionally selfish, undisciplined, and so forth. They would be right some of the time, maybe lots of the time, but not all the time. I have pondered this alot. Would I be more receptive to reconcilliation if the ow did not exist, and I had just agreed to divorce cause I was tired of being alone. I don't know, probably, but only cause I was in denial of how bad things were. It bothers me a great deal that the emphasis of MB and various marital self-help manuals and Christianity itself, is that marriages are worth saving simply cause they exist. It almost seems the marriage is more important than the people. In starting to really look at all this I find myself wondering what the heck marriage even is. It seems to be nothing more than 2 strangers choosing each other to live with. There is nothing inherent (that I can see) in that choosing being good or bad for the people, simply cause they chose. The goodness or badness would seem to arise out of how the people fit together. If they fit well, something wonderful can result, if they don't it is emotional/psychological torture, and everything inbetween. Clearly people choose poorly quite often, hence so many troubled marriages. The question is then, shouldn't we first assess whether 2 people should even be together, before trying to "fix" whatever is supposedly wrong. And what do we do when the marriage is "good" enuf for one, but not the other? Is the leaver then just a good for nothing bum? It troubles me we seem so fixated on convincing people who want to leave they do not know their own hearts, and just need to be fixed. The spouse will change some to (under the threat of divorce, a dubious motivation), and all will be well. Ok, sometimes it is, but I cannot help but wonder for those who truly know their own feelings, have done the work for a long time and are done, why they should be expected to invest more emotional resources and time in a longterm effort for the benefit of the spouse being left. Why are the leavers are made to feel defective, cruel, selfish and so forth? True, often the leavers do so as the result of an affair, and the bs can take the moral high ground. But except for the shallow womanizers (and female equivalent) I would have to say affairs are the inevitable consequence of broken marriages (and therefore the responsibility of both partners) and are plain and simple, emotional survival. <P>If this is so, then it makes sense that people would be reluctant to give up this new person simply to satisify some idea of "fairness". True, the op relationship may be flawed as well, and not worthy of pursuit, but sometimes it is too. I don't know the answers, but saying some artificial time limit, behaviour must be followed will not always fit human needs. If someone does indeed find the person they fit better with, it only makes sense to pursue them. Yes they might wait, but maybe someone else will come along and the opportunity lost. It is all well and good to get poetic over people waiting for long times, while the object of their desire works out their life, but that is analytical. Our hearts know people want to bond, and if we leave the op we risk losing them forever, as someone else who also fits well may take our place. I think that is might be why Sheryl and others who feel they are emotionally mature and have assessed the possibilties of bonding with the op are reluctant to follow the "guidelines". Indeed is difficult to fit messy humans into neat boxes, and certainly if one can take the time to proceed cautiously in matters of the heart, they should. But those who pass by opportunities for love may pass by their best chance, and I think that is a powerful reason why many don't. IMO it would seem worthwhile to not say just forget the op but to help all of us assess our relationships and look at them very very hard. If indeed the affair arose strictly out of emotional need, and a realistic look reveals significant problems beyond that need being met, then prudence is in order. But if the assessment seems to indicate a deep connections, and the realities of the emotional status of the individuals is acknowledged, maybe one should not pass by. I get the sense this is where sheryl went, she looked hard, assessed all the issues as best she could, and opted for a chance at life. Took the risk, left the kids, closed off reconcilliation, accepted the reality her (and his) emotional turmoil would stress them, but was unwilling to give up something important, her chance at life, at bonding to the right life-partner and all that that means. It would be nice if life let us do things by the book, but it does not, one can analyze themselves right out of happiness, we need to listen to our hearts too. I think that is why people do the things they do, we make mistakes, but our motivations are emotional survival, and that means different things to different people. Some need a lot more than others. Some can settle for relatively shallow marriages (emotionally) as long as everyone is nice and caring, some need a much deeper bonding, and I think that is also reflected in the unwillingness to give up op.<P>I know lori is adamant about the reconcilliation process, but I think it is untenable to say every affair is unworthy, when in fact it might indeed be the discovery of the person you belong with. However, I do think when underage children are involved the stakes are much higher, and the standards for leaveing/reconcilling must be higher too.<P><BR>

I know my opinion was not sought on the title but I can't help but respond.<P>The tendency for separated/divorcing people to rewrite history is real, very common, and almost a given. Those who want to stay together only see small problems that could be easily surmounted with effort of both parties. Those who want to leave can only remember the bad - tainting every encounter,holiday, memory with the feelings they have right now. Neither is probably true - just their perspective.<P>What I do know is that the "fog" is real. There is no way your "has been" marriage can compete with the rush of new love/lust. And you are smack dab in the middle of that rush. That is why so many here are telling you to not make any permanent decisions while still involved with OP. It is an unreal situation, neither of you are legally or morally free to pursue each other, and the secretiveness and maybe even the deep down knowledge of the "wrongness" of it somehow heightens the intensity of the rush. OP is supporting your every emotional need right now...but it is in an artificial relationship...and not based on how or even who the two of you might be when you are actually single. You are in the "giving" mode to OP now too - and the intensity of the neediness of both of you is feeding off of each other...BUT IT IS AN ARTIFICIAL RELATIONSHIP. You are married and so is OP. You are not in a real relatioship. <P>It's like the difference between living together and actually being married - it doesn't SEEM like there would be a difference, but somehow there is. One is artificial marriage and the other really is - true colors don't come out in an artificial situation. Only when the rose-colored glasses are removed can you evaluate what you really have or don't have and whether it is worth saving.<P>I don't think anyone here really advocates keeping a marriage together simply because it exists...but we do advocate taking the time to see/realize that what goes down CAN come up again...if both people are willing to try.<P>Justification for our actions is very powerful...be careful that you are not trying to find a justification for what you've done that makes it more palatable to you. Be honest with yourself first, above all else. <P>Just my two unsolicited cents...<P>Lisa

I'm sorry, but in almost all of the cases on these boards I have promoted working on a marriage and I do not suggest an affair to anyone. But, I am one person that left my husband for the other man and he left his wife. We've been together/married for awhile now. I didn't leave my kids. They live with me and their step dad and his children are at our home on a regular basis. He was not and is not a womanizer and I'm not a "slut". We were not trying to escape to a fantasy world and hide from responsibilities. In fact we now have more responsibilities. We have 2-4 kids all of the time and more bills because of his child support. I know what I did went against marriage builders but he wasn't and isn't a fog. I love him just as much today as I did years ago when we first met. I just regret that we didn't meet before we first got married. So, we are a statistic and I agree that most do not work in our situation. But, you've been honest with your feelings on this board and I feel it's only fair that you know that sometimes "affair" relationships do work out.

Not adamant, Confused, remember this IS my second marriage. And not bound and determined that ALL affairs are doomed to failure. The true Harleyites here will attest to the fact that I am not one to follow the Harley theories to the letter (hence my problem with Plan B - among other things that others will be happy to list for you ad nauseum ).<P>I don't have a lot of time, Kristin's on her way home. NB's situation and her h's affairs are a lot more complicated than you could have read in a short time here. I haven't agreed with her every decision, but I love her as a friend and support her 100%. And I gotta admit, she's given it her all.<P>BonnieSept is a good example of how things CAN work. All marriages cannot be saved, nor should they.<P>In most instances, marriage is entered into b/c of love. In most instances, this love dies or the marriage unravels due to neglect (barring addictions and abuse and other more extreme problems). Before disolving the marriage, everything that CAN be done, should be done to resurrect it. That is just my opinion. <P>We all know that love can come more than once to all of us -and generally has. That's why I don't discount the feelings of love for an OP as you'll see many Bs's do. It IS love - as real as love can be. It's not been tried by day to day responsibilities, but has been tried by guilt, inconvenience and other things. By nature, the secrecy does help, but sometimes it can hinder as well.<P>I simply feel that love lost should not simply be replaced. And the decision to end something as serious as marriage should not be made while in heat. And beginning love is just that. Not necessarily sexual, but emotional as well. It's too serious, it affects too many lives.<P>Now, I do NOT advocate living in pain or loneliness your entire life. I do not even advocate living in mediocrity for the sake of "keeping" the marriage. But make the decision when your head is clear, not muddled by feelings for someone else. And go only when you know that you have tried everything possible to rekindle. <P>There is a chance you could lose that someone you have fallen in love with....but she's not available anyway, right? I mean, she'll never leave her family, right? And, if you do, that's certainly not the reason you're chosing this moment to leave. Of course it has heightened the sense of discontent...even normal life would seem inadequate in the light of new love. If you lose this love, it's probably not "the one and only". Fact of the matter is, I don't believe any love is the "one and only". I love Robert more than life itself, but if he had not come home, I may have loved again. Not stopped loving him, but loved again. Who knows?<P>Oops, as usual, I've got lots more to say, but she's home and we have things to do today. <P>I'll try to get back. You have to do what's best for you, taking into consideration the other's whose lives you affect, for that is the nature of human relationships and one of the responsibilities we take on when we join in marriage, not simply financially, but emotional health as well. I have not told you to stay in this marriage, but to be fair in leaving it. There's a difference. A big difference.<P>Talk again soon.'<P>Lori

<B>Confusedin MI -</B>Excuse me for butting in, but your subject line mentioned two of my "faves" and closest "cyber" friends(I have actually met Lori & family in person).<P>You speak your points well and they reflect a person who is looking deeply inside themselves for answers. I did see a couple of things where I thought you needed clarification.<P>First, Lori is dead-on. You really can't make a complete picture of Sheryl's situation until you read *many* of her posts. Go back to the "Read-Only" forum and research her posts there. Sheryl tried as hard as humanly possible for a long time to get her marriage back on-track. In fact, even her XH posted some under "3wishes". You stated that Sheryl did "sort of agree with not taking up with op". There is no "sort of" about it. Sheryl is the first to say that taking up with OP was a HUGE mistake. However, she was fortunate(and she deserved some good in her life) in that it looks to be the right thing for her.<P>You don't have to be a poster on this board to recognize that going full-steam into another relationship before you divorce is, most of the time, ill-advised to say the least. You made a comment about "emotionally mature" individuals, but you have to remember that even "mature" people get "hurt" or "damaged". Decisions in the damaged state can very easily be the wrong ones though they feel right at the time. When you have been through what we have, you need to heal before you can realistically know what you want or give your all to your next relationship.<P>I know what you are saying about those on this board who would strongly disagree with your points about a pre-divorce relationship. What you have to remember is that this board is sponsored by "Marriage Builders" and there is an admonition as you enter the forums that it is recommended that everyone be conversant in Dr. Harley's "Basic Concepts". Now that doesn't mean that you have to believe everything on this web site to participate, but it does mean that there will be lots of folks who will be holding your views up against the Harley "ideals" for comparison. Just don't get your nose out of joint if you take a hit or two.<P>I read thru your entire post and noticed that there were enough justifications and rationalizations that someone could easily suspect that it was written by a WS. I believe that you are simply struggling with a lot of issues and trying to make sense of them and life in general, but others might not see it that way.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would have to say affairs are the inevitable consequence of broken marriages (and therefore the responsibility of both partners)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now I don't think affairs are ever "inevitable", but otherwise, I really like what you said, especially the part about both partners having responsibility. This statement alone could take a few slams from people here.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but I think it is untenable to say every affair is unworthy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here, I disagree with you. I think affairs are <B>never</B> justifiable. Deal with the marriage first, then find a new partner. How often does the average person buy a new house before selling the old one? There's too much baggage involved to really commit yourself to the new house. Same thing for a relationship.<P>BonnieSept is exactly right, sometimes affair relationships <B>do</B> work out. However that doesn't make the affair OK. When you marry, you implicitly accept certain responsibilities. When you have an affair, you shirk those responsibilities. What do you do when your children ignore their responsibilities? Do you say, "well, if you are happier, then it's OK"? Nope, didn't think you would.<P>Oh, well, that's all I have time for now. I think you are on the right course. Right now, after all you've been through, your motto should be "Question EVERYTHING". Whether or not you are ever in another relationship, you have to get right with yourself and I think you are on that path.....<P>There, that was at least four unsolicited cents!!! <P>Take care,<BR>--DeWayne--<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by confusedin MI:<BR><B>The question is then, shouldn't we first assess whether 2 people should even be together, before trying to "fix" whatever is supposedly wrong. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, IMO, the answer is "no". The assessment should be done before making the commitment to enter a marriage, not after the fact. Let me give you my standard analogy for this. You decide to have kids, but after having them, you decide they're too much work. Shouldn't you have the right to get rid of them? Think about it a bit.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If someone does indeed find the person they fit better with, it only makes sense to pursue them.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, yes, my favorite topic, "comparison shopping". I love it. But, uh, what happens when the <B>next</B> better deal comes along? and the next? and the next? Are you planning to marry each better deal? Why?<P>I think you are doing a lot of pondering, and that is good. But pondering while in the fog usually brings up the usual fogged in conclusions. That's why people tell you to get out of your EA, so you can clear your head and think without that interference. Maybe you should also give some thought to just what is a marriage, and why you would actually want to marry someone rather than just date them, if you believe that finding a better deal is a good reason to end a marriage.<P>AGG

HI!! <P>Just got home after a lovely visit with a new friend, and saw this... I'm going to read now... I'll be replying soon... be right back...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Hi confused,<P>Well, where to begin?<P>I returned to MB for one reason, and one reason only: to share what I've learned the VERY HARD WAY from hindsight. <P>Yes, I've gotten something too... support, love and understanding. I thank God for that, more than anyone realizes.<P>It would take you three days to read through all my postings, and all the postings of my ex-H, and all the postings of my boyfriend and his ex-W. After you'd read them all, you would see four lives entangled -- oh, what am I saying? -- there were many more than four lives -- there were my children and his children and my ex and his OW... and my boyfriends ex and her OM... and then of course, he and I -- <B>OH WHAT A TANGLED WEB WE WEAVE</B>!!!! These are lives <B><I>forever changed</B></I>, and not all for the good... in fact, for the last six months, not *much* for the good... but it is improving.<P>First let me say that I loved my ex-H with all of my heart for 19 years. That he cheated on me devistated me and crushed me over and over, but I loved him anyway. If I may be so bold, I will say that he loved me too, completely-- or as much as he *could* given his severe problems (the most difficult being his serial cheating). <P>My affair lasted three months and produced one hop in the sack. It was AWFUL -- not the actual sex (although it wasn't good) but what it did to me emotionally. I hated myself. How can I make that clear? I HATED ME!! I WANTED TO DIE. <P>I came here.<P>I worked to save my marriage for 18 months... and the last 6 months were while my ex continued to have affairs. <B>Did I have a *right* to find a new OM? No, NO, NO!!</B> <P>A funny thing happened though... I had met the wife of my (now)boyfriend. She and I became very close cyber-pals, and a series of events occured (which I will NOT describe) and in the end, she lived with her OM and I ended up here, with her ex-H. This situation is <B>NOT</B> the way it was suppose to happen..<P>Do I regret it? YES! and NO! Yes, because it was the WRONG WAY TO HAPPEN, but No, because I was lucky enough (dare I say blessed?) to have found a man who is good, kind, hasn't cheated on me, and loves me. <P>Should I have tried longer in my past marriage? Probably. <P>But I'm not about to go back to him now. I am divorced, my boyfriend is divorced, my ex is with the OW he has been with all this time, and my boyfriends ex is with the man she's been with all this time. I can't speak for my ex or my boyfriends ex, but he and I are trying to rebuild our fractured lives. Yes, we had a part in fracturing them, but we were not solely responsible.<P>As far as my children are concerned: I miss them more than you can EVER imagine. Even though two are adults, they did come out of my body. My son is a different story, and it is our goal to see him more often as soon as I can work and we can afford it. I left my kids with the ONLY person I trust them with: my ex, their father. Had they been younger, or had he refused to care for them, I would not have come. My ex-H did a very unselfish thing, probably the most unselfish of his life, in taking them so that I could have a try at happiness.<P>I am the poster-girl for what <B>NOT TO DO</B>. I primarily write about my struggles here. I do not presume to think that anyone wants to hear about how much I love the OM (and I hate calling him that), how happy we are, our plans for marriage, or anything along those lines. <P>In hindsight, if I had to do it all over -- I would have stayed with my kids and waited until my son was old enough to make it on his own (which may have been never since he has special needs). His needs are very unique, so it truly could go either way. I would still have filed for divorce because dammit, I was sick of being cheated on. I was working very hard, and alone, at saving my marriage. <P>It's my kids I miss most -- then yes, my ex too -- but not enough, not EVER enough, to go back <I>to him</I>.<P>Two weeks ago, I had a long talk with my kids and my ex about my coming back to California, if only temporarily, to help out somehow. Only David, my ex, really wants me back there. He's tired. On one had, I want to say how I understand, and on the other, I want to say: "Hey, welcome to the world I lived in while you were out there cheating on me -- tough noogies. Life is rough. You chose this. You wouldn't fight for me or our marriage. If you had, I would be with you still." <P>I don't know, <B>confused</B>...<P>...sigh...<P>I have a chance at happiness. I know it sounds selfish. I do. But as my son said, just two weeks ago, "Mom, you have to stay with OM. I want you to be happy... someone in this family needs to be."<P>But that doesn't make it right. It just makes it what I chose.<P>So <B>confused</B>, think long and hard about the decisions facing you. Regrets suck.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 18, 2001).]

BonniSept,<P> If everything is so wonderful in your marriage, I wonder why you are here? You seem to promote these things.<P> Did your cheated on cheated with H, cheat on you,too? <P>------------------<BR>Deb

Deb,<P>What's going on with you?<P>I haven't seen you for awhile... <P>...you sound pretty upset with Bonnie... and you know, she is a good woman trying to make her current marriage work no matter how it began. Why the anger?? This isn't the you I talked to throughout my thread in March...<P>I care.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Hi Cheryl,<P> I'm sorry. It is just so painful to be cheated on, as you well know.. If everything is so wonderful, then why even be here?<P> Who really wants to hear that these M are so great? I guess I do not know Bonnie's story, like I know yours. You do not seem to promote this sort of thing. You make it perfectly clear that you would prefer to be with your XH.<P> You can not just forget someone you have raised a family with. This man has been M 27 years! My brother was going to leave my SIL, after a 27 year M, for another woman. My SIL went up to her bedroom and shot herself in the heart. That was 3 years ago. My B is not a happy man. He misses her,feels quilty, and "now" sees how much she really meant to him. He does have someone else now,(a legitimate relationship) but when you see pictures of him, he does not look all that happy.<P> I knew I was going to get "flamed" for that one but, OK.<P> I also did not mean to imply that Bonnie was not a good person. I love my H even though he cheated on me. He is remorseful though.<P>------------------<BR>Deb

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bnbsdbG:<BR><B> You make it perfectly clear that you would prefer to be with your XH.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Deb,<P>I know you're in pain, and for that, I am terribly sorry. Yes, how well I know. <P>But, dearheart, at <B>THIS POINT</B>, no, I would rather NOT be with my ex-H. <P>Before, <B>*oh yes*</B>, had he fought for me (because I wasn't implimenting a very good Plan A) or if I would have realized that I couldn't go by what HE was doing-- *I* had to make the change if I wanted my marriage. That was where my mistake was. But no, not now.<P>I'm sorry if this disappoints you - truly. <P>You just seem so sad and angry lately... I really do care.<P>**and that is SUCH a sad story about your SIL**<P>((((deb))))<P><BR>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 18, 2001).]

Sheryl,<P> No, that does not disappoint me. In your case I would not want to be with him either. I was M before and I do not want to be with my 1st H. He was abusive, cheated on me many times, was an alcohlic, drug abuser. He died when I was 28. He shot up hundreds of $$$ worth of coke, and jumped in a river. Did I love him? No, he ruined that. I hated having guns pointed at me, being strangled, called names, having to take my children and go to my parents(for safety) everytime he started drinking. <P> I guess I hate pain. If God doesn't give us more than we can handle, I guess he thinks I can handle alot. I really should stop coming to the MB boards. I hope everyone isn't angry with me now. I am sorry.<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Stopping in for a sec and borrowing your thread, Confused...<P>Deb, I haven't talked to you 'cause I don't talk to everyone these days, but I just wanted to let you know that you should NOT leave this board, you're wanted here, too.<P>BonnieSept IS a good person and we all realize that you're speaking through an incredible amount of pain and we understand. I think that's why you shouldn't leave...it's a good place to work through the pain and there are an awful lot of caring people here.<P>Gotta run now and get Kristin up for school. Talk to you guys soon.<P>You, too, Confused, you lucky guy! <P>Lori

Bonnie,<P>You have posted previous threads where you did express regret for having had an affair - if only because you wondered if her H would have had a better relationship with the kids if you hadn't. The tone of your posts lately has seemed more defensive. <P>I wonder how things would have been different if your H hadn't treated your kids so badly.

Morning guys. To answer the first question. I stumbled on the marriage builders site some time ago because I wanted to educate myself more about marriages and how to keep them strong. I visit the divorce board because I am divorced. I too have issues regarding an ex, child support ect.., everything divorced parents talk about or have questions about. I've said before that divorce is a terrible thing for all involved. I don't ever want another failed marriage and I work very hard to educate myself and to learn from my mistakes. Yes Nellie, I have stated that I regret that I ever had an affair. It was very wrong to get to that point before leaving my marriage. I am also absolutely sure that part of my bitterness towards my ex is because of the way he treats his children. When I read some of these posts and how some of these couples are handling conflict in their marriages I'm extremely proud of them. I know if I ever had any conflict in my current marriage I would handle it using marriage builders techniques. It's such a shame that more couples don't learn about all of these tools before problems arise.

Where in the heck is <B>confused</B> today???<P>Oh confused, where are you????<P>

Thx again folks, have been debating whether to post again, I was pretty frank with my thoughts and feelings here, as people are. And like every other craziness that seems to go with this strange place my life has taken me, there have been unexpected repercussions. While my wife is aware of the affair, and many of these feelings, I have not seen any need to be as um....... forthright, well she decided to come to this forum (to see what I was so interested in, seems she is suspicious of on-line stuff these days), figured our who I was in short order, got quite upset over some of the stuff I said. Being kinda stupid, I denied it was me for a day, and altered the posts a bit (as you may have noticed), to no avail, she flat out didn't believe me. I owned up to it this morning, and had the inevitable verbal confrontation. So you don't really love me, so you really don't want to reconcille, so you are a big fat liar as well as a cheater...*sigh*. And I played my role, said things I regret, like I hate you, you always are trying to get me, you don't understand me at all...blah blah blah, threw a few objects about, slammed a drawer, and so forth, all by the book about marital break-ups, I can't believe who I have become. I have been reading books about all this, Crazy Times at the moment, as well as looking for real life feedback in places like this. My wife and I have never been able to talk about problems, especially my stuff, she dictated the emotional content of our marriage. So I decided to keep posting here, she can read it and do what she wants with it, at least I get to be heard by someone. By the way, I did apologize to her for saying mean things, and I have told her repeatedly, and do so again here... I do not hate you, I hate our marriage, and I truly regret the pain I have caused you. I am trying my best to be fair, but I must be emotionally honest too, and right or wrong, I feel I am important too, and can make choices for me. I may have cheated, but you are a full partner in the mess our marriage is in.<P>Lori....Great imagery, but I am not in heat I am focused on whether I want to remain married. I had already left the marriage emotionally long before the ow appeared. The only surprise was that I thought my wife had too, I mean she had only told me a bazillion times I was useless and she wanted a divorce. I only said that once (7 weeks ago), and she came unglued. What I find surreal is she claims she never meant it, I can't imagine saying such a thing and not being deadly serious about it, and I am. This distesses her greatly and I don't understand why. She thinks I should just say...ok, gee, my wife was just upset all these years and now is all ok, has apologized, and I should just be happy she finally saw the light. Well in the meantime the marriage died, so as I see it we are starting over, and part of that means whether we, both of us, and that means me too, choose each other. She says I have no choice, I married her, and I owe her myself forever. Not exactly a compelling reason for me to reassess my decision, or feel real desire for her, but it does a great job of making me feel really guilty when I look at her, and make me wonder why we ever got married in the first place. So tell me lori, what is love?<P>DeWayne...In general I agree with the basic positions about affairs. The problem is we messy humans never quite fit in the textbooks. The mere existence of an affair is not an ipso facto proof of deficiencies in the parties. The institution of marriage is a human social construct, as such it has value, but it is also flawed, nothing we do is perfect. IMO affairs represent the check and balance on marriage as a behavioural absolute. If an affair arises out of the legitmate bonding needs of the parties involved, it is every bit as real as the marriages left behind. One could view it as an unequivocal message to the original spouse, that the ws is done, that they have divorced you in no uncertain terms. However, due to the fact that we are messy humans, affairs can be just as much a mistake as the original marriage, hence all the effort to reassess, and give 2nd chances, and so forth and so on. My issue with folks is trying to categorically label an affair as wrong, when in reality it may very well be the marriage that is wrong for the psychological health of the ws. No one can own anybody, and anything that smacks of coercion to keep someone in a marriage raises my hackles. So the idea that the bs has experienced some sort of awful betrayal is quite self-serving and seems to be about gaining moral power over the ws. It may be they feel awful, but they had just as much to do with the affair as the ws in many cases. Not to say many affairs are not selfish, shallow needy sorts of things. But humans find each other and properly bond in many different ways, an affair is just another way, perhaps a way more fraught with chance for error, but a way nonetheless. IMO the issue for a bs (and ws) should not be about what happened, or how unhappy they are, but why it happened, that is the crucial psychological question needing an answer. It really disturbs me that affairs are often shrugged off as just being silly lustful actions of irresponsible people. That is not always true, in my case, had nothing to do with lust, had everything to do with someone who could hear me. Not listen to me, but hear me, there is a huge difference. The truth about human beings is that we cannot necessarily hear each other, and if we are married to someone who cannot hear us, it is a very lonely place to be. Hearing someone cannot be learned, cannot be faked, you either can hear or you cannot. You may be able to hear, and not paying attention, that can be fixed. IMO is the only goal of marital reconcilliation, to determine whether 2 people actually can hear each other. Others say makes no difference any 2 people can make marriage work based on having a history together, and/or having children, those who say this are wrong. IMO trying to fake such bonding by various marital repair tools does a disservice to the parties, first they should determine whether they should be married (to each other, not whether they want to heroically save the marriage at all cost. I have observed that many people seem to be able to reach an accomodation of sorts. Be married, not particularly happy, but not unhappy, kind of a tolerable, mutual aid thingy. Frankly that kind of existence scares the bejeepers out of me. I disagree with the marital gurus who say marriage is just work, is not supposed to be a deeply satisfying passionate expression of unconditional love. I have observed (and so have you I imagine) very special marriages, where the people are clearly deeply passionately in love for decades, that IMO is the way it is supposed to be. True, finding someone you fit that well may doom you to a unfullfilled search for a lifetime, so often we settle, but that should be the model we shoot for, and we each should feel free to set the bar as high as we wish. The risk we all take when we marry is that if our bar is lower than the one we say I do too, we may get hurt. The only way to avoid that risk is to never marry I guess. Vows are often mentioned as the solution to this, but that is not possible. A vow cannot change the human heart, it can only bind in a contractural sense. The vow is uneven, it favors the party who wants the marriage more, therefore is flawed. Unless we accept a doctrine of coercion over choice. IMO each should choose their spouse everyday, and the day one no longer chooses, the marriage ends. If it continues, it is nothing more than a business contract, is no longer a marriage, is coercion, a sort of emotional slavery, and that seems kinda awful, not to mention is not psychologically healthy for either party. May seem harsh, but such is the reality of being human and bonding with another human. The risk cannot be removed, nor should it be, because in that risk lies the bonding that we all instinctively seek and need.<P>Agg.... Nice try with the kid analogy, but no dice. The analogy breaks down cause kids are not adults, and they are created not chosen. See above for my feelings on what human bonding is about. But I agree wholeheartedly with the pre-marital need for serious assessment. Unfortuneatly our culture does an abysmal job of educating us in mate selection. If it did this forum probably would not exist. Instead we seem to favor on the job training, 1st marriage being the training ground for 2nd marriage (assuming one learned the lessons well), but the tuition is horrendous, there must be a better way.<P>Sheryl........ There is no "right" way to find a mate. Nature (and the urge to mate) does not come with a rule book. It is very primal, we are hardwired for it. Trouble is we can and do make mistakes. So in our infinite wisdom we construct societies and cultures and try to impose "rules", with some success as we try to unravel the human psychology of mate selection. If I may be so bold I would say you did it exactly the right way........... if it works out. In this business it is all in the results. The method is irrelevant. Ah, but assessing the results, the impact of our actions on others, the ripple effects through our tribe, our culture, and down throug time itself. Hard to assess huh, we will never really know, I know that. Good luck with your new mate.<P>Deb....so sorry about your sil. This is something I really am struggling with, the short term affect on a spouse who has been "left". Personally I would much rather be left, than be a leaver, the guilt is awful. But I cannot help but think a marriage based on being bound due to someone's emotional well-being is just as awful. Ultimately we are all solely responsible for our own emotional well-being, we cannot hold another so. However, we can and should be, as compassionate and patient as possible in leaveing a marriage. But anyone who would kill themself over such a thing has serious psychological issues that have nothing to do with marriage, and should not have married in the first place. Having said that, I have become much more understanding of sucides, the thought of how nice it would be to get run over by a truck as a means of escaping the mess I am in has a very real appeal to it, enuf to be a bit scarey. Fortuneately the various self-help books I have read say these sorts of feelings are part of the deal in marital turmoil, that helps some. Interestingly my wife, the ow and her husband (who till now is still in the dark, but senses something) all feel depressed and find themselves strangely attracted to the notion of jumping off a bridge somewhere too.<P>

I'm so glad you came back. Your thoughts are not new, nor all that deep and yes, you are in heat, I did NOT mean sexual and it is affecting your judgement. I don't expect you to admit it.<P>Children are created by choice, just as a marriage is...it's a separate entity and will not thrive unless tended. I think AGG's on the money here.<P>Hmmmm....now why on earth would a spouse, male or female, throw out the word divorce for YEARS and then say they didn't mean a word of it. That's pretty easy and you're a pretty smart guy. You've spoken so much on the essence of the human animal for on this board, and done so much thinking about our frailties, I'm surprised you didn't just jump on that one! But that wouldn't have served the purpose, would it? Wouldn't have added to the justification. There are a number of easy answers and one fairly obvious one. I've seen children do it, I've seen adults do it, heck, I've seen animals do it. When you can't seem to get attention, or get heard any way you try, you'll try anyway you can! Heard a woman on TV admit it just this past Tuesday when asked "Why, knowing the effect of the words on him, if you love him would you intentionally bait and goad him with things you didn't mean?" TO GET A REACTIION BECAUSE EVEN A BAD REACTION IS BETTER THAN BEING IGNORED. Ever seen a child act up to get attention? Husband and wives do it too. Now, I don't know your wife, but, if there's any truth to that in her case, then throwing the divorce word around, as horrible as it may be (and I do agree it's awful) could have simply been a form of reaching out. So, what if THAT were the case, Confused? Wouldn't be the best way, but it does put a new slant on things - not on your emotional divorce from this marriage but on your beliefs about her feelings.<P>Look, I know you don't want to hear this stuff, so I won't be bothering you with it anymore. You're going on and on about how you feel and in the state your mind it in, I don't doubt a word of it. It justifies nothing - except to you. Take the stupid books and read and see yourself, almost to the letter in all of them and then keep proclaiming you're different.<P>I am not advocating, as I believe I've mentioned before, a life devoid of passion and love. I wouldn't settle for it myself. I haven't settled for it and neither has my husband. We've taken the time and care to build the life we both need and we've vowed to continue to do so. How do we know we will - we've learned our lessons. You justifications show you've learned none. The PERSON you are with is but a small part of the success and passion in a long-term relationship and if you feel that it's choosing what you've now determined is the right person to sustain that, then you'll be looking again before too long. Nothing beautiful and wonderful, like a loving and passionate relationship can be sustained without careful tending - just like an exotic plant. <P>What's the deal, confused? I agree that your decision should be whether or not to try to make this marriage into the one it should be. I gave you an out. You said you couldn't be with this woman anyway so I gave you an out. Do the work like you should, get over this, clear your head, learn what you need to learn and then truly decide. Not in the heat of the moment, not just after discovery. As a student of human emotions and behavior, you already know that we human beings do not make our best or wisest decisions under duress - that's why agreements made in such a state are uninforcable by law. And this situation constitutes emotional duress of amazing magnitude.<P>So there, you have your out. You only need to decide about THIS marriage, not about a future with your newest lady love. So, if that's the truth and you want to be so determined with us that that's ALL you want to do, then do it the right way, with no outside influence, after doing all you can in the right way to truly see what's left. Hey, you've put up with it for 23 years and didn't think it was so darned imperative you decide RIGHT NOW during that time, what the heck's a few more months when lives are at stake, right? <P>Think about it.<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited April 20, 2001).]

confusedin MI<P>Lori told you...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You're pretty much full of <B>Pop Tarts</B>, but I expected that and I'm glad you came back. Your thoughts are not new, nor all that deep and yes, you are in heat...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So well put. Your logic is extremely flawed, and the evidence and samples you cite are basically untrue.<P>The bottom line is that while "mate selection" can certainly help in creating a lasting marriage, several cultures that successfully support arranged marriages demonstrate that it's not necessary to create great marriages. In those cultures, a lot of work is done to prepare the potential spouses on how to be good at the "job" of marriage.<P>And that's what you need. Behavioral work on how to be a good husband. And your wife could certainly use it too.<P>You're in an affair now. You haven't learned any new skills. It's very safe to predict that this relationship will fail just as your marriage is failing. In the same way. People who marry 2, 3, and more times don't get any more successful in marriage if they don't learn marital skills. That's supported by the higher divorce rates of multiple marriages.<P>You need to learn these skills. Otherwise, you will be a failure in all future relationships. If you're going to bother to learn these skills, you can do so with your current wife. You have a lot more invested with her than you do with someone new---and you can rebuild your marriage to something terrific.<P>I hope you hang around here for a while, and let us work on you. There have been others like you visiting, and I know that some of them are enjoying their restored marriages, in spite of their affair-addled original positions.<P>[This message has been edited by K, strictly to make Lori laugh (edited April 20, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited April 20, 2001).]