tonight I asked if he had thought abput what I said last night. He said the expected no. We got to talking, and he said that I did not need his permission to change my mind. I know I said, I was really talking to you as a friend, because I still consider you my best friend. Sharing with you a big decision that I have to make. Yeah I was hoping for some feedback. Thats okay. But I did "feel" shunned. <P>Heres the clincher hence the subjct line of this post. <P>" Dara this is nothing but a distraction to me."<P>Huh? I am not playing games or anything, what do you mean? From what? Your playing games with your self Dara. And you distract me, from everything. Jeez, I still think of you as my best friend, I didnt think I was a distraction to you. <P>You are nothing but redundant Dara. Just a redundant distraction. Ok, yeah the tears are flowing now. As I type and as he spoke. I found a couple of letters from him tonight as I was cleaning out my closet. Letters written around the time that he left on duty right after my affair. The agony I put that poor man through. Why? Because after he left I told him I wanted a seperation. He couldnt understand that I wanted one only because I felt like such sewer slime I wanted to give him time to heal to see if he really wanted me after that. This hurt him. Said he didnt want a sep. So we didnt.<P>Then I found a letter, actually a book that he wrote to me when he was in Kuwait. Nothing but pure innocent love and romance. I dont think any author could have been more poetic.<P>I cant fight anymore. Fight to hold my head up and love him. To battle persistent rejection.<P>Not knowing that the person who means the MOST to me in this world thinks I am a redundant distraction. <P>For that I dont even have the will to think how could he.<P>After he saw me crying he said its all the same Dara. you havent said anything new. Yes I did last night. Well what was so new about it? <P>Didn't reply. Couldn't. Redundant Distraction.<P>He went to bed, but came out after a few minutes to ask if I needed to get up early, yes at 5 am I said. Are ya coming to bed? Nope not for awhile. Would you like me to cook you breakfast? No thanks (thinking redundant distraction)<P>I know he realizes how much he hurt me. Right after he said it I said " I cant believe I went from being the person you would love like no other to being a redundant distraction to you."<P>(Bowing out like a beaten dog)

Dara, you just hit a bottom loop on the ole rollercoaster. I remember how devastated I was when my H illustrated very clearly how completely worthless I was.<P>Gawd, I thought my life was over - I spent the rest of the evening in a complete stunned vegetative state.<P>But I'll say to you what I said to Hopelessmom: His Truths do not have to be your Truths. <P>And just because he says it (and I dont think for a minute he believes it) doesn't make it true.<P>He's hurt and scared Dara, and yeah, he's being pretty sulky and immature. <P>But you've barely gotten started and you are already quitting? No way girl, you've got more strength than that!<P>I'll say this to you again also: <B>Turn down the volume on what HE SAYS and watch what he DOES.</B><P>Geez, he was popping out of the bedroom and asking if you were coming to bed!!! This is hardly a man that is rejecting you!<P>And you know, this is gonna come off harshly...but I think it needs to be said.<P>Stop making this about you and your needs. It's about him and his needs. Everytime you don't get what YOU need, you are ready to quit. Where is the focus on his needs????<P>Dara, you need to learn how to take care of your own needs. Stop waiting for him to do it. He can't right now. He isn't WITHOLDING love and affection from you, he isn't CAPABLE.<P>Your taker is in control, and you need to get your giver back into the picture!!<P>This is going to take time and action and unconditional love on your part. <P>I'm also wondering if he might be testing you - yes, it's manipulation on his part, but we can't nag him like we can nag you! He's hurt, and scared, and he's throwing an arsenal of weapons at you, to see if you'll stay, and if you really mean your changes, and if you really do love him.<P>As JL said, yeah he's being a jerk, but he's the jerk you love. And we all act like jerks at sometime in our lives. This is his time. Love him anyway!<BR>

Dara,<P>Oh honey, just reading your post brought tears to my eyes. Though I am not a "distraction" I am totally "disgusting". Oh the pain those words inflict on us. My stbxw will tell me the her stomach churns everytime that she sees me and then 2 hours later we'll be locked in passionate love makeing. I just don't understand. The first rule of marriage/divorce should be keep your d$mn mouth shut. Some of the words that I have been called will never leave my mind. I hope that you and I can each find the strength to live a happy life.<P>Try to have 2 minutes of happy thoughts today. <P>Big Hug and kiss on the forhead to you.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Dara,<P>I didn't know which thread to reply to. Please read the other thread you are getting some very good advice which I am now going to repeat. First, I have a request to make of you. <P>WILL YOU PLEASE STOP TALKING RELATIONSHIPS WITH YOUR H.<P>Dara he needs to "see" the new you emerging, not hear about it. He has apparently heard a lot from you, but the actions have been missing. I forget who (old age ) it could have been BR and definitely dePlume, and surely Sheryl have all been telling you the same thing.<P>You talk to us about this stuff then you want to talk with your H about this stuff. Now think about this. Do you think he comes home looking forward to you seeing you so sensitive, asking "see I have changed now why don't you love me?", or something else. I am not belittling you here, your actions are very normal.<P>But what everyone is telling you is to be yourself. Lets say you decide to stay because it is good for the kids, it is good for H to see the kids, and you still have hope for the marriage. How do you stay, you become his friend, you act like his friend. Does a friend call you up in the middle of the night and ask "Why don't you like me?" You might tolerate it once or twice but after awhile you will avoid that friend.<P>His statement about redundent is probably accurate. If all you are is a friend, he has plenty. What you want to be is his W, his support, his lover, and the person he turns to when HE needs help, not simply the crutch you return to only when you cannot get something elsewhere.<P>Dara, you are a good woman. Your heart is in the right place. You have learned and are learning your lessons, but you have to learn that speech is not what is needed here. It is actions. Make your best decisions and then act like your H.<P>Interestingly, he came out and asked if you needed him to fix you breakfast when you get up. He came out and asked if you were coming to bed with him. He came out and asked about your schedule. <P>Now pay attention here. How do all of us interpret his actions?? We think he still loves you, he still likes you, there is a place for you in his heart. We don't know the guy but all of us interpret his "actions" as saying deep down below all of the pain, he does love you. Those very simple actions say more to us than "redundant" does.<P>My recommendation is live your life with him using "simple" actions. Stop the relationship talk, but start "acting" like you care, doing little things. Don't ask for recognition, thanks, or anything. Dara, he is showing you how he wants love shown. He is giving you the roadmap, quit fighting it, and him. No matter how he feels he loves you and it shows.<P>Go read His Needs Her Needs NOW. Then watch your H carefully, he is giving you the clues. He wants you to do things because you want to do them. Then he can gauge if you are controlling him or this is something that you think is the right thing to do. He doesn't want the pressure or responsibility now for family decisions, because he doesn't know what he wants.<P>He knows he is hurting his children, and you. He doesn't want to hurt you further by encouraging you to stay and then decide it cannot be worked out. He wants what is best for him and what is best for you. He cannot figure out the former, and he won't figure out the latter for you.<P>So stop talking (except to here of course ) and start acting and watching.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Just a quick response. I think your getting fantastic advice and I agree with one post 100%. He's not acting like he's talking. And, yes show him how you have changed instead of talking and talking. He's giving you a beating for his pain. Keep reading this site, show him your changes and don't give up. It's way to early and I think your actually just starting to get to the core of a lot of your problems.

Hi guys, Thank you foe your support. Lost husnabd I cried again today after work when I read your post and did not even see the tears coming. Thank you.<P>BR, I tried to rhink of a way to describe how I feel today and couldnt find the words. But in a vegetative state fits just right. depressed, no. injured, no. Cant even descibe. I honestly do not think I have ever been hurt more by anyone in my life than him last night. Hit so hard it knocked my wind out and couldnt fight back or even say what the hell did you do that for?<P>Yep yep, a low curve on the good ole coaster. I feel totally numb. I couldnt show any love today. Nor any anger. Used to be that after he hurt me I would just try to love him even more, that I knew he couldnt have meant it. Today I dont care if he meant it. I feel absoloutely worthless. I just want to be left alone by him. No of course it has been me all this time pursuing and showing love; he hasnt. But I mean now is that I want nothing from him. I dont even want my mind screwed with anymore by his casual courtesies.<P>Had bought some new scrubs yesterday, and showed him before the "distraction." Wasnt sure about the color, asked him opinion. A casual "nice." Today as I left he said a couple of times that I do look nice in that color. Cute I even heard through this tunnel. Dont want it. Asked how my day was when I came home ( hadn't heard that in a while) and did not want to allow him to "open" the door to talk. OK I said and went on woth what I was doing. He knows how much he hurt me, I THINK. If he feels that bad, and wants to make me feel that he cares, why cant he say he is sorry? Or that he regrets saying it? Or even acknowledge it and explain in a nicer way what he meant? I dont want the casual courtesy of small talk.<P>No his truths are not my truths, I realize that BR. That is not the summary of Dara, a redundant distraction. But who I am to him means alot to me. I wouldnt even consider the bugs that splat on my window a redundant distraction from driving for me.<P>Is it my taker in control when I approach him as a friend, talking about whats on my mind, not seeking his validation?<BR>Is it your taker in control by sharing your thoughts with a friend BR?<P>Testing me for what? How much he can hurt me?<P>Bill, <BR>Thanks for the big hug and kiss on the forehead. Reminds me of being tucked in by my dad when young. Oh to be in a safe place again. (Tears flowing again, amazed that someone else gives a dam about me.)<P>Jl,<P>Oh by all means the relationship talks are OVER. This wasnt a relationship talk though. It was more like was I being considerate of only my needs when I said I wanted to leave, and the children's? And his relationship with them.<P>What does the new me do feeling like this? Well, new me isnt pouting, sulking, demanding a concession. Just plain devastated. When I talk to him about how much I am getting to know myself and who I want to be it does not involve him whan I discuss it. It is not for him but me. So when I was sharing with him about the changes I am experiencing it realtes to the kids, moving, or just plain sharing my self with him; about me. Not me relating to him.<P>If I sound scattered here it is because I am answering your post as I read it. Sorry if the sentences dont flow quite right. No!! He does not want me to be his wife and support him, not just a friend. How could he want support when he dosent even tell me what is going on with him, and his thoughts. He doesnt want to turn to me when he needs help or support. I am on the same level to him as a, well I dont know. Small talk is what I get IF I am lucky.<P>Yes he came out of the bedroom to ask if I was staying up, wanted breakfast, what time to set the alarm etc. My take; used to be that if he said something hurtful I would react, become angry. But I didnt. He knew he hurt me. I just withdrew completely, as I am now. I believe he saw the difference in how I reacted, and knew that he hurt me. That I did not become combative as a defense mechanism. Surprised him I think. It made him feel bad maybe. He didnt know how to react. REmember when Gnome had mentioned that parable of two people pushing against each other? What would happen if one quit pushing? They fall down. I fell and it shocked him.<P>Great point about him wanting me to do things because I WANT TO (staying) for him to realize that I am not trying to control him or manipulate him into saying me staying would be best. He wants no part of initiating a shot with me at this moment. Dont have His needs Her needs. Dont want to wait to order online either. Do you think Barnes and Noble will have it? If they do (I'll call) then I will go in the AM pronto.<P>Bonnie:<P>Thank you for commenting. My opinion about his actions not matching his words I do see that point of view as expressed by BR also. <P>Do you think however that people must be animals toward each other during divorce? Not always I suspect if they ever did truely love their spouse. I think his actions sprout from just caring about me, like a sis as he said before. Not from the remnants of love and romance.<P>Dara

Dara,<P>I hope like me that today you can force a smile and try to have a good day. Yesterday, like you, I was totally spent. I had nothing left to give emotionally or physically. I went to our counselling session early, sat in the sanctuary and just cried out to GOD for a good 20 minutes. I had no tears left to give. I'm trying to do the thing that I do not want to now. I want her to feel as though I have let her go. I want her to see that I'm OK and going to just fine without her. Maybe she'll change her mind but maybe not. On the outside the best qualities of good ole Bill, on the inside scrabbled eggs.<P>Dara, it makes me smile inside that I made you feel a little better. That's what this place is all about. Some may say it's just a fantasy world with hugs over the internet. But for someone like me who has been deprived of those things, when someone sends me a hug I feel it. <P>There are people who care about you and will be there for you in your weekest hours. Take care and try to make each day better than the one before.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Dara,<P>You are hurt sweetie, and boy do I know what you are feeling.<P>It took me several days to bounce back. Do you listen to Pat Benetar by any chance?? She has some pretty fiesty songs that are really good for keeping up your spirits! Sing along with me.."Hit me with your best shot!!...."I get right back on my feet again..." lalalala<P>Now, I know I'm talking to you through a fog of hurt, but listen to me. (And listen to everyone else too!)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I mean now is that I want nothing from him. I dont even want my mind screwed with anymore by his casual courtesies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now do you think you might understand a bit of where your H is at? He's been talking like this to you for days now, and we kept telling you - he loves you, but he is protecting himself and he's scared of being hurt again. Not that it was OK or good for him to hurt you like that...but do you see now what it might feel like from his shoes?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...and did not want to allow him to "open" the door to talk. OK I said and went on woth what I was doing. He knows how much he hurt me, I THINK. If he feels that bad, and wants to make me feel that he cares, why cant he say he is sorry? Or that he regrets saying it? Or even acknowledge it and explain in a nicer way what he meant? I dont want the casual courtesy of small talk.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dara, you shut him down and weren't open to talking. And the very next thing you express is resentment that he didn't apologize or explain the way you wanted him to do so.<P>Maybe he was understanding that YOU were not in a good place mentally to talk...and was showing love and respect by not pushing it...something we tell you constantly!<P>Even in the fog of hurt you are trying to get him to 'fight' for you. You want him to take that horrible stuff back and make it better...I totally understand, believe me, I do. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it my taker in control when I approach him as a friend, talking about whats on my mind, not seeking his validation?<BR>Is it your taker in control by sharing your thoughts with a friend BR?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes it is. Talking about what's on YOUR mind. That's taking. You need to talk, and you are using him as your outlet. In the course of friendship and marriage...that's what happens naturally, you give by listening, take by talking...and you find mutual support.<P>Sweetie, he's not in a giver mode either. You are BOTH taking and fighting each other. <sigh><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Testing me for what? How much he can hurt me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He's testing how much you love him and how genuine your changes are. He doesn't know the new you, and he's exploring it. Granted, he's not doing it in a kind way, he's being very selfish and mean - but mostly out of hurt.<P>Btw, His Needs Her Needs was at my Barnes and Noble, actually they had quite a few of the Harley Books. Get them!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes he came out of the bedroom to ask if I was staying up, wanted breakfast, what time to set the alarm etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Remember what I said before about watching what he does, not what he says? <P>Now Dara, think hard, is this how you would treat a "distraction"??????? This is hardly the action of a man who believes what he said.<P>He's saying things, out of fear and hurt and his own fog.<P>STOP LISTENING my dear, you are getting hurt more than you should have to be - maybe you should pick up some earplugs while you are out shopping for Harley books!! <P>

Please Hear What I'm Not Saying<P>Don't be fooled by me.<BR>Don't be fooled by the face I wear.<BR>For I wear a mask,<BR>I wear a thousand masks.<BR>Masks that I'm afraid to take off,<BR>and none of them are me.<P>Pretending is an art that's second nature with me,<BR>but don't be fooled.<BR>I give you the impression that I'm secure,<BR>that all is sunny and unruffled with me,<BR>within as well as without,<BR>that confidence is my name and coolness my game,<BR>that the water's calm and I'm in command,<BR>and that I need no one.<BR>But don't believe me...Please.<P>My surface may seem smooth,<BR>but my surface is my mask,<BR>my ever-varying and ever-concealing mask.<BR>Beneath lies no smugness, no complacency.<BR>Beneath dwells the real me in confusion,<BR>in fear, in aloneness.<BR>But I can hide this.<P>I don't want anybody to know it.<BR>I panic at the thought of <BR>my weakness and fear being exposed.<BR>That's why I frantically create<BR>a mask to hide behind,<BR>a nonchalant, sophisticated facade,<BR>to help me pretend to shield me<BR>from the glance that knows.<BR>But such a glance is precisely<BR>my salvation. and I know it.<P>That is,<BR>if it's followed by acceptance.<BR>It's the only thing that can<BR>liberate me, from myself,<BR>from my own self-built prison walls,<BR>from the barriers that<BR>I so painstakingly erect.<BR>It's the only thing that will assure me<BR>of what I can't assure myself,<BR>that I'm really worth something.<P>But I don't tell you this, <BR>I'm afraid your glance will not <BR>be followed by acceptance and love.<BR>I'm afraid you'll think less of me,<BR>that you'll laugh,<BR>and your laugh would wound me.<BR>I'm afraid that deep-down<BR>I'm not much and you will see this and reject me.<BR>So I play my game, my pretending game, <BR>with a facade of securance without.<P>So, when I'm going through my routine<BR>do not be fooled by what I'm saying.<BR>Please listen carefully and try<BR>to hear what I'm not saying...<BR>what I'd like to be able to say, but can't.<P>Who am I, you may wonder,<BR>I am someone you know very well,<BR>For I am every man you meet<BR>and every woman you meet.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>" Dara this is nothing but a distraction to me."<P>Huh? I am not playing games or anything, what do you mean? From what? Your playing games with your self Dara. And you distract me, from everything. Jeez, I still think of you as my best friend, I didnt think I was a distraction to you. <P>You are nothing but redundant Dara. Just a redundant distraction.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Could we try to put on our empathy hats for a moment and try to understand what this guy was really saying?<P>What is a distraction? Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary gives two definitions: (1) "to draw or direct (as one's attention) to a different object or in different directions at the same time"; and (2) "to stir up or confuse with conflicting emotions or motives".<P>What I think we have here is a guy who is trying to figure out who he is and what he wants. A guy who is trying to reconcile his values and his desires with his fears. He's already in a state of confusion, with conflicting emotions and motives. And guess what, Dara: you're adding to that.<P>You can't prevent that, Dara, nor <I>should</I> you. But surely you can understand that your words, your actions, your very presence add to his stress. And right now he is so absorbed in his own pain and confusion that he can't always respond to you as a separate individual.<P>As BrambleRose pointed out, that's not really very different from how <I>you</I> are relating to <I>him</I>. At the moment, anyhow.<P>Dara, it isn't entirely clear to me whether your husband actually accused you of playing games with yourself. Are those your words, or his? If they <I>are</I> his words, I think he's just expressing what we've already told you: he doesn't "trust" the changes you claim to have made in yourself. He thinks maybe you are trying to fool him, or maybe you are trying to fool yourself. But he can't simply take your word for it that you've changed. He's too wary for that right now.<P>Now what about the "redundant" bit? Well, again according to Merriam-Webster, redundant means "characterized by similarity or repetition". In other words, you're unhappy with him. That's nothing new. You want him to commit to your marriage. That's nothing new. Every time the two of you talk, you get upset. That's nothing new. Everything else is just words to him right now.<P>I think what he's trying to say is that he doesn't see that anything has changed, and he's tired of reaching out only to get knocked down again and again.<P>Is he contributing to that outcome? Most definitely. Applying depersonalizing labels to you is a hurtful thing for him to do. I don't blame you for feeling numb, Dara. God knows I've been there myself, with some of the terrible (and terribly unjust) things my wife has said to me. But someone is going to have to break the cycle if you're going to make progress, and your prospects are better if <I>you</I> do it instead of waiting for him to do it.<P>This is a time for <I>empathy</I>, Dara. If you focus on trying to empathize with the feelings behind your husband's words, you won't have <I>room</I> in your heart for the kind of reaction you're experiencing. It's very strange, but it's true! At least, it worked that way for me!<P>Beyond that, try to step back from your feelings and look at what your husband said more objectively? Is there <I>truth</I> to the label? <I>Are</I> you a "redundant distraction"? Well, certainly you are <I>more</I> than that, and calling you "nothing but" is cruel. But looking past the delivery, I think you've been given an important message.<P>First, your husband is more in a state of conflict than withdrawal. Otherwise, you wouldn't be a distraction. So <I>embrace</I> being a distraction, and strive to "direct his attention" somewhere positive. Or help him achieve more focus. Is he feeling that he's too distracted to concentrate on his schoolwork? Is there something you can to do to help him with that?<P>And, whatever else you do, try to break the "redundant" cycle. As JL said, stop talking relationships.<P>I feel like I'm being overly "male" here and offering perspectives and solutions instead of empathy, and I apologize if I seem insensitive. Believe me, I know the pain you're dealing with. I just don't know what to <I>do</I> with it, other than to accept it and keep on keeping on.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> Could we try to put on our empathy hats for a moment and try to understand what this guy was really saying?<P>What is a distraction? Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary gives two definitions: (1) "to draw or direct (as one's attention) to a different object or in different directions at the same time"; and (2) "to stir up or confuse with conflicting emotions or motives".<P>What I think we have here is a guy who is trying to figure out who he is and what he wants. A guy who is trying to reconcile his values and his desires with his fears. He's already in a state of confusion, with conflicting emotions and motives. And guess what, Dara: you're adding to that.<P>You can't prevent that, Dara, nor <I>should</I> you. But surely you can understand that your words, your actions, your very presence add to his stress. And right now he is so absorbed in his own pain and confusion that he can't always respond to you as a separate individual.<P>As BrambleRose pointed out, that's not really very different from how <I>you</I> are relating to <I>him</I>. At the moment, anyhow.<P>Dara, it isn't entirely clear to me whether your husband actually accused you of playing games with yourself. Are those your words, or his? If they <I>are</I> his words, I think he's just expressing what we've already told you: he doesn't "trust" the changes you claim to have made in yourself. He thinks maybe you are trying to fool him, or maybe you are trying to fool yourself. But he can't simply take your word for it that you've changed. He's too wary for that right now.<P>Now what about the "redundant" bit? Well, again according to Merriam-Webster, redundant means "characterized by similarity or repetition". In other words, you're unhappy with him. That's nothing new. You want him to commit to your marriage. That's nothing new. Every time the two of you talk, you get upset. That's nothing new. Everything else is just words to him right now.<P>I think what he's trying to say is that he doesn't see that anything has changed, and he's tired of reaching out only to get knocked down again and again.<P>Is he contributing to that outcome? Most definitely. Applying depersonalizing labels to you is a hurtful thing for him to do. I don't blame you for feeling numb, Dara. God knows I've been there myself, with some of the terrible (and terribly unjust) things my wife has said to me. But someone is going to have to break the cycle if you're going to make progress, and your prospects are better if <I>you</I> do it instead of waiting for him to do it.<P>This is a time for <I>empathy</I>, Dara. If you focus on trying to empathize with the feelings behind your husband's words, you won't have <I>room</I> in your heart for the kind of reaction you're experiencing. It's very strange, but it's true! At least, it worked that way for me!<P>Beyond that, try to step back from your feelings and look at what your husband said more objectively? Is there <I>truth</I> to the label? <I>Are</I> you a "redundant distraction"? Well, certainly you are <I>more</I> than that, and calling you "nothing but" is cruel. But looking past the delivery, I think you've been given an important message.<P>First, your husband is more in a state of conflict than withdrawal. Otherwise, you wouldn't be a distraction. So <I>embrace</I> being a distraction, and strive to "direct his attention" somewhere positive. Or help him achieve more focus. Is he feeling that he's too distracted to concentrate on his schoolwork? Is there something you can to do to help him with that?<P>And, whatever else you do, try to break the "redundant" cycle. As JL said, stop talking relationships.<P>I feel like I'm being overly "male" here and offering perspectives and solutions instead of empathy, and I apologize if I seem insensitive. Believe me, I know the pain you're dealing with. I just don't know what to <I>do</I> with it, other than to accept it and keep on keeping on.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Empathy hat Gnome? I just dont have one right now. He hurt me more than I have ever been; its difficult if not impossible to have empathy right now. Distracing from his home work is what he means I think and from "his" life. Hell Gnome, I dont give a dam about his studying; not when on m-w-f all he has is one class at nine am, and hes gone till 5 pm. Either he is spending all that time with her, or studying in the library at school. In either case he acts as if he has absoloutely zero time to study. IMO, if he go away from the OW for a bit he would have more time.<P>I know he is under alot of stress. I am too. I am faced wiith relocating myself and three children alone cross country, what does he face? More homework? Do I sound bitter about his schoooling? Hell yes I am. And its frankly sucks to think that merely my presence stresses him.<P>Last night he went to bed w/o a word. When I did finally go lay down he was facing my side of the bed (very odd). I crawled in to the furthest side away from him all the way up to the edge. A couple of times during the night he reached for me and I pulled away. All this time he prefers to have his back to me. My point? I dont know. He tried casual small talk last night and I couldnt respond. Couldnt not wouldnt. <P>Yes it would be the old me to wait this out until he approaches me. Right now I dont know what to do. I dont want to be hurt like that again. And if I am such a damm distraction to him than why the hell does he even bother trying to talk to me? Just leave me alone. I cant bear any more cruelties and insults. So I will take things as they come. I cannot initiate any love for him right now.<BR>I am sypathetic to his frustrations Gnome..I fell frastrated too. I dont want to be the source of that to him. But man this hurts. I am not moping and pouting, letting him see just how miserable he made me. the best I can do is just suck it up on move on. Move on to what? Not opening myself to another situation like that. Not giving him more oppurtunity to crush me again.<P>HE said I am playing games with myself. At first he said with him, then corrected himself. <P>On another note, mmovers are coming today for their "pre-move assessment." He will be home for that. HOw to bear it I dont know. Reality is setting in for me now.<BR>

Ever seen the movie <I>What About Bob</I>, Dara??<P>In it, Richard Dryfus tells Bill Murray to use a "new" therapy called "Baby Steps"... and poor Bill... with each step he says aloud, "Baby Steps, Baby Steps..."<P>What happened last night was your H doing a baby step...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>A couple of times during the night he reached for me and I pulled away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>... and he learned something of value.<P><B>DON'T REACH OUT, YOU WILL BE REJECTED</B><P>...sigh...<P>Dara, you don't want to leave. You don't want your marriage to end. <P>Cancel the movers, tell your H you aren't divorcing him, and begin a good Plan A.<P>It hurts honey, I know it does.<P>I don't know what else to say -- I wish I had a mirror to hold up to you... so that you could see what we all do.<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>Dara,<P>You are hurt sweetie, and boy do I know what you are feeling.<P>It took me several days to bounce back. Do you listen to Pat Benetar by any chance?? She has some pretty fiesty songs that are really good for keeping up your spirits! Sing along with me.."Hit me with your best shot!!...."I get right back on my feet again..." lalalala<P>Now, I know I'm talking to you through a fog of hurt, but listen to me. (And listen to everyone else too!)<P> Remember what I said before about watching what he does, not what he says? <P>Now Dara, think hard, is this how you would treat a "distraction"??????? This is hardly the action of a man who believes what he said.<P>He's saying things, out of fear and hurt and his own fog.<P>STOP LISTENING my dear, you are getting hurt more than you should have to be - maybe you should pick up some earplugs while you are out shopping for Harley books!! <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Br, <P>LALALALA."Before I put another notch in my lipstick case I better make sure I put you in your place!!"<P>Thanks for the smile. It almost cracked my face though!!!<P>Like country music?<P>Maybe Chris LeDoux would be more appropraite.<P>"YOu piss me off,<BR> ya f***ing jerk,<BR> You get on my nerves!"<P>(Laughing hysterically at her own jokes.)<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR><B>Ever seen the movie <I>What About Bob</I>, Dara??<P>In it, Richard Dryfus tells Bill Murray to use a "new" therapy called "Baby Steps"... and poor Bill... with each step he says aloud, "Baby Steps, Baby Steps..."<P>What happened last night was your H doing a baby step...<P> <P><BR>No never saw the movie.<P>Man it hurts though Shryl, I know you understand. I pulled away because I dont want to be comforted by him, to only have this happen again.<P>What would have come of it? I dont know, but I dont want to be hurt again. Maybe he would have just held me, maybe he would have expressed his remorse for hurting me. Those things feel wonderful. I just want to STOP being so vulnerable to him.<P>I cant stop the divorce. That statement implies that I strarted it. I didn't. He said he will pursue the divorce after he re-enlists, and after he finishes school so that he wont lose his financial aid.<P>Stop the movers?? Are you crazy? Remember I had mentioned that I do want to stay, but not under the pretense that he will leave. I have an oppurtunity now to leave. One or two yrs from now I wont have movers doing it for me at no cost, and MIL needs help with that house she wants me to stay in. It cant stay empty for 2 years.<P>And I dont want to live here alone Sheryl. I cant discuss any planning with him, as I did try the other night and look what happened.<P>What I see in the mirror is someone who did not know what she had for years. Alot of remorse and guilt for taking a love that most people never come close to, and ignoring it; taking it for granted. So now on to consequences. I am sure I will recover. Maybe even love again. But there will always be a great loss, discarded by me for years.<BR>My focus has been on myself for ages. The past four months it has been on him. Now it will be my children and picking up the pieces of what I broke.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B> <BR>No never saw the movie.<P>Man it hurts though Shryl, I know you understand. I pulled away because I dont want to be comforted by him, to only have this happen again.<P>What would have come of it? I dont know, but I dont want to be hurt again. Maybe he would have just held me, maybe he would have expressed his remorse for hurting me. Those things feel wonderful. I just want to STOP being so vulnerable to him.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I know. It just hasn't been long enough to give up yet!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I cant stop the divorce. That statement implies that I strarted it. I didn't. He said he will pursue the divorce after he re-enlists, and after he finishes school so that he wont lose his financial aid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>He hasn't even filed yet, has he? You still have to sign the papers, don't you? Don't sign them if you don't want to have the divorce. Also, he might not pursue it *IF* he sees some HOPE. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Stop the movers?? Are you crazy? Remember I had mentioned that I do want to stay, but not under the pretense that he will leave. I have an oppurtunity now to leave. One or two yrs from now I wont have movers doing it for me at no cost, and MIL needs help with that house she wants me to stay in. It cant stay empty for 2 years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Yes, as a matter of fact, I am crazy! But that aside, YOU HAVE A CHOICE here. It isn't your responsibility to make sure the house isn't empty, and you are having an expectation that you'll have to leave anyway in two years. Save your marriage, and you WON'T!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And I dont want to live here alone Sheryl. I cant discuss any planning with him, as I did try the other night and look what happened.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hated being alone too... I really do understand. But that can't be a reason to do it this way. As far as discussing with him... you can't. You can tell him what you're doing though.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>What I see in the mirror is someone who did not know what she had for years. Alot of remorse and guilt for taking a love that most people never come close to, and ignoring it; taking it for granted. So now on to consequences. I am sure I will recover. Maybe even love again. But there will always be a great loss, discarded by me for years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Why are you so quick to say it's over and why are you talking about a new life right now? <P>Sweetie, have you read posts here -- I mean one's by Lostva and K and terri?? These people tried for YEARS and are recovering!!<P>PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP!!<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sheryl,<P>I havent *given up*, but am not going to actively fight anymore. I will take things as they some. I will show love to him when it is safe. Definition= letting go. I will not actively seek out his attention anymore. Just keep living day by day. And leave him the hell alone like a hot pan. If he feels comfortable to initiate something (like last night) I will then reciprocate and then some.<P>He brought home the papers a few months back. Doing it pro se. I signed after much contemplation. He still has them I signed because he said if I relly loved him I would want him to be happy. And he needs closure from us to be happy. They havent been filed.<P>I am not giving up. I need to find a *safe* balance here now. I'll leave him completely alone for awhile, and if and when He wants to talk, touch, make love, etc it will be HIS free will.<P>that is the BEST plan I can come up with right now. Dont know if it is the best though. To leave him alone, stop seeking his affection/conversation/approval. Work on me.<P>PS.. I too have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to affairs. Important thing is..you tried with all your heart to reconcile. And when it did not work, you moved on. Lived your life and became happy. I admire your tenacity Sheryl.<BR>Dara

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I havent *given up*, but am not going to actively fight anymore. I will take things as they some. I will show love to him when it is safe. Definition= letting go. I will not actively seek out his attention anymore. Just keep living day by day. And leave him the hell alone like a hot pan. If he feels comfortable to initiate something (like last night) I will then reciprocate and then some.<BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That sounds like a plan to me. I am starting the same plan myself. It is so hard. I have always actively sought affection and now I won't. Working on me. How do I do that? I think it's a good plan that either they leave and we've started healing or the realize something and stay. Not much to lose.<P>GOD SPEED, Bill<BR><P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LostHusband:<BR><B> That sounds like a plan to me. I am starting the same plan myself. It is so hard. I have always actively sought affection and now I won't. Working on me. How do I do that? I think it's a good plan that either they leave and we've started healing or the realize something and stay. Not much to lose.<P>GOD SPEED, Bill<P>Thanks for your response Bill. It is tough to continue living with the WS isnt it? But remember many would love to have the oppurtunity like us to live with them. They may only have infrequent visits that may be too painful to broach any walls.<P>I have probably pushed him away by wanting his attention so badly. A good book is "Lough Must be Tough" by Dr. dobson. He approaches "letting go" LOVINGLY. His take is that the WS wont "fall in love" with a groveling desperate person. All from a Christian perspective too. But it is written on a fairly basic level. Lots of repition. I bought it, but would suggest you go have wonderful afternoon sometime at Barnes & Noble, get an expresso and read it there.<P>How to do this plan? When inside you are dying, all scrambled as you said? I dont know. It seems easier for me right now after his summary of what I mean to him. Out of pain just to accept his decisions. Because everytime I try to talk to him he hurts me. We are no longer intimate anymore, because I told him that it is an expression of love for me. And he said he does not love me, it is just a f***, I felt like a whore and used. I told him that so now he wont any more. Said it causes too many prob's. SO be careful. <P>You seem like a really great guy. You have alot going for ya. Keep that in mind. It wont be the end if she leaves. Not for you. Just the end of the marraige. Our marraiges dont define "us."<P>Keep up the good work Bill.<P>Dara<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Thanks Dara,<P>I can not understand how the WS can say the intamacy is just a "F$*k". I hear the same thing. I could never feel that. Is that a defense mechanism that they are using? Maybe. Thanks for the words.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>I havent *given up*, but am not going to actively fight anymore. I will take things as they some. I will show love to him when it is safe. Definition= letting go. I will not actively seek out his attention anymore. Just keep living day by day. And leave him the hell alone like a hot pan. If he feels comfortable to initiate something (like last night) I will then reciprocate and then some.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, good luck, Dara. That strategy spelled the beginning of the end for my marriage, but maybe it will work for you.<P>I chose that strategy for pretty much the same reasons you are choosing it, but I sure wish now that I had been bolder (not to push for what I wanted, but to give what I could). The problem lies with our desire to feel "safe". It keeps us from both giving and receiving. It isolates us.<P>Your husband reached out to you last night. But because you didn't want to be vulnerable, you rejected him. You <I>knew</I> that what he was offering was something you wanted, something that would make you feel good; but you rejected him because you were afraid that acceptance this time would make his next rejection (whether real or perceived) hurt all the more.<P>I've said it before, and no doubt I'll say it again. The opposite of love is not hate, and it's not apathy or indifference either. The opposite of love is <I>fear</I>.<BR>