Exxon,<P>A full week, good for you. You must keep it up. You must show your smile. If you smother him with emotions and pleading it will just drive him further away. It is a very hard task. Try to give yourself a break and start doing some things for yourself. Don't be a pawn in his game of chess. Try some activities alone. Basically, you want him to see that you are happy and that you will be ok without him. At the point in which he chooses to see that his mind will working. He will see this happy person in front of him that he knows loves him very much and that he loves very much. He will then realize that she is pulling away from him for a change. That is when all of your sacrifices pay off. <P>This is what all the books say. It sounds easy enough but it is probably the hardest task of your life. Look past the work and see the rewards. If he goes you have already started working on yourself and if he stays your relationship will hopefully be that much stronger. <P>I to hold my pillow every night, only I wish that my pillow was my wife. After holding her every night for the past 12 years, I have stopped doing that and resorted to some tough love. Don't get me wrong if she asks I will give. It pains me so, but it pains her as well. <P>Let me tell you a little about last night. Wife got home around 7:00pm and I was on my way out the door to go for a walk alone. Well she saw this and joined me. She didn't ask, just joined. I'm smiling but not initiating any conversation. She proceeds to tell me about all the good things in her day. I am reactive but not sharing anything about mine. We get home take showers and start to watch a little tv. As it gets closer to bed time she starts getting angry. Every outburst that she had was met by me with no come back, just a smile. She says "We should of never had sex", I say "What", she says "Since we knew that we were getting divorced we should of never started having sex again because I am so horny". I knew what she wanted and we had a good time. When it was over I was still just smiling and went to bed on my side. I did not hold her.<P>Since I have stopped holding her I have noticed that she isn't sleeping well. She tosses and turns. She reaches her foot out to me so there is some contact. I know that this is working and that this makes her think. Last night, she was still up at 3:00 am and she started a conversation. I knew what she wanted, so I held her and she fell asleep. This morning she got up cranky. I believe that she was cranky because she is thinking. I hope she is realizing how much she will miss my touch but I don't know.<P>I am searching for strength, understanding, patience, and love. It is a hard journey. I want my wife so bad, but if I can't have her I want the pain to end.<P>I've been all over the map on this post. I hope that you can follow it. I have little hope but I do get hope from some little things. <P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Congrats Bill!!<P>That is my weakness, I want so badly to be held at night, to have that five hours of "safeness." Even if it isnt reality. Sounds like you are getting stronger. Just remember though; tough LOVE. Be loving when you have the chance. If you know she is tossing and turning because she wants you to hold her, ASK her if she wants you to hold her.<P>Remind her how good your love feels. <P>Most importantly though, let her know that it is a SAFE place.<P>That wont happen if you bring it up later any needs of hers that she allows you to meet.<P>For example, if she becomes cruel again to you, dont bring up the lovemaking or her wanting you to hold her.<P>I did that myself, whenever he held me or made love to me. Or showed me hope. "But I thought?...." He would then remind me again that he does not want me, and it meant nothing to him.<P>I have learned the HARD way. Now he wont hold me if I ask, and wont be intimate with me. Last time we were, after I blew it, he just layed there, wouldnt touch me kiss me or anything. Its not worth the heartache!!<P>Keep going Bill. As you said in your post to Exxon, you will eventually come to the point that you grow stronger w/o her, or she turns around. I have come to the point that it is not worth even talking to him. Not being a "redundant distraction." I have taken alot of cruel things from him these past few months, but for him to equate me to those words I cannot recover. I cant give anymore. I dont even want to post here for my sit. because I dont want any one blaming me for "giving up." I have been called every four, five and six letter word in the book from him. And I could "take it." But he attacked my self-worth in that statement. <P>I dont have much good advice for ya, Bill. But being in the same sit as you pretty much, I can share with you the mistakes that I have made. (the ones I realize now.)<P>Good luck bud. Keep your head up.<P>Dara

Dara, <P>Thanks for the advice and encouragement. One thing I'd like to get your opinion on. You mentioned about the last time that you made "love". Since her decision to split our "love" life has been amazing. But that's where my question is. Saturday night she initiated sex and after some pretty intense moments in "the sack" we embraced in a passionate kiss. After all was done and we were back in bed she said something like "Sex is so great since we've taken the emotion out of it, right".<P>What the hell does that mean?<P>Is she really true that she could feel no emotion? Is she trying to justify to herself that there is no emotion? Does she feel guilty that we are having sex?<P>That statement really hurts when she says it and she says it enough that I believe that she is trying to coinvince herself that there is no emotion. I just can not understand that.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Bill, <P>Our "love" life has improved dramatically as well. I think she was testing you or just trying to deny to you that you can please her, and make her feel good.<P>She does not want to believe that you can meet any of here needs, that is why she quickly brought it being "unemotional." Dont take it to heart though. She is just too proud to admit that you can make her feel good.<P>This is not something new, I've seen other posts about how couples sex life improved after mention of divorce. For me, I find him so much more attractive now. I've never even been able to reach prgasm that often before, but now I have to try to hold them off!! Sorry for being graphic. So I think it is not only emotional but phsyiological as well.<P>My H has never been as cruel as to tell me right after that there was nno emotions involved for him, that it was just a f***. But those words have come out of his mouth before. So I know how you feel. She is merely trying to undermine any needs of yours that she has filled.<P>Yesterday we were sitting around talking about working out out finances and the phone rang. It was her. The nerve of her, to call on a Sunday afternoon typically considered a time when everyone is home. But for the past month I have gone into work at 3 on Sundays. He hung up quickly, and boy I didnt realize how much a simple phone call could hurt me. She knew I would probly be gone, therefore he is still actively invovled with her. We were on our way to go to the garage and sort through some stuff. I was quiet, and he asked me if I still wanted to work on the garage. No I said.<P>I went to my room and lay down, feeling entirely crushed and heartbroken. He followed and lay down next to me and just held me tightly. I began to cry. He kissed me. I cried harder!! He layed there holding me, kissing me, and just stroking me. It felt so darn good. Then he made love to me. He did the same thing the night before when I began to cry in bed. <P>He just doesnt like to see me crying and hurting. Says he cares about my feelings. But I asked why do you? I am hurting because of your choices, yet you want to make me feel better. I told him he does a great job at it!! <P>But why? Why is it that he cant stand to see me cry? <P>Maybe I'll start a post on this. I hope that I made some sense about your situation before I rambled about mine!1<P>Dara

Dara,<P>Thank you for you insight. It does help to hear things like this from others. I believe it in my mind but my heart is so broken. I wish the crying thing would work for me. When I cry in front of her she gets mad and says that it disgusts her. I am a very emotional person. <P>In regards to your situation, as a man it would pain me to no end to see my wife cry. If she was down, no matter what pain she had caused me, I would try to comfort her. If she wanted to be held I would hold her. If she wants to f&^k, I will make love to her, even if she says it's only a f&^k. Since there is no one else in our situation, I can't understand that pain. The only pain that I can understand is that caused by rejection.<P>I hope that you and I can get through all of this B.S. and I'm sure that we can with each others support and the support of the people here on this board. It is so good for me to able to talk with women and get their opinions on items.<P>Big tight sqeezing (((HUG))) for you today.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Just read your reply Bill,<P>Love those big tight squeezing hugs. Thank you!!<P>Hugs, <BR>Dara

How nice it is to see others feeling the same way as me!!! I've been lurking here for a bit, but wanted to thank you guys for the great advice on this thread, particularly. I think I'll try some of the things you've suggested here - the "tough love" approach may just be what hubby needs to realize what he's about to lose! Thanks again...

WantingForever,<P>Welcome. I will tell you that this is a great place to get advice from those who have "been there and done that". It's a great place to vent. Some times you get answers you don't want to hear but most of all you get another channel of support.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

I just want to cry. Bad day. I am totally consumed with thoughts of my wife. She has made sure that her schedule will keep her too busy for any time with me. I thought we would have some time tonight but she reminded me that she was tutoring tonight. Another night to just sit there and roll around in my self pity. Get out there and do something for yourself all of you will say. Well sad fact is that while she is keeping herself so damn busy someone has to be with our children. I do a lot of things with the kids but there is an emptiness there without Lisa.<P>I just want to hold her and love her.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

I had decided not to reply or post here anymore, because I was depressing myself so much. Please do not be so hard on yourself. It's easy for us to give advice, but you have to live it. My hubby too tries to avoid time with me. Last night we had a nice night out...no LBs from me. I thought we might talk, but before I could sit on the bed he was gone. He rushed out to avaoid contact with me I was so hurt,the tears fell for about two hours. So if you have to cry or vent some other way that's what you have to do to get through this evening after you put the kids to bed. This may so like a stretch if you are not religious, but you could also read the bible. I just started and it helps me refocus. (I'm not religious either, but this situation has caused me to seek strength where I can find it. you can Focus on Plan A again tomorrow, but do whatever you need to get get through the night. I am so sorry that you are going through this too.<BR>Peace be with you

So are you saying you are leaving Marriagebuilders forum altogether Exxon or just posting on the d/d board? I have been concerned about you and just got home from class and thought I would look around and see how everyone was doing... <BR>The fact that you are going out together is still a positive step and eventhough he is avoiding communicating with you about the A,,, read what you wrote ,, you called confrontation.... when you show him that you and he are able to open up your hearts to each other without LB,,, he might come around and talk more... I feel that you are on the right track with reading the bible and keeping your faith and your spirits up as much as you can... as you know we both have been WS and BS,,, so I am sure that you can see where he is coming from... he feels much pain too and is not ready to deal with it yet,, he might feel that it will cause more problems at this time to try to discuss them... Plan A,, helps in this regard when they see us changing and making it a safe place to discuss issues...<BR>m 2 cents worth... hope you decide to still post and chat with us.<BR>C1

I need somebody to either hold me back or let me go. I don't want to do anything "spur of the moment", but I think that I'm about too. Yesterday, I had a really bad emotional day. To get over it I tried to do something nice for my wife. Her sister (12 hours away) is having problems and I made a plan to rearrange our busy weekend and called wife to tell her that she should think about going to see her sister for four days. Immediately she said we have no money, and I reminded her that family is more important thatn money. After work met the family at the YMCA for kids soccer practice. Five of us sat in one area while wife sat in other. That really pisses me off. We got home. I kept busy. I fed the kids, mopped the floors, and helped with the laundry. Well then comes bed time. Wife asks me to do her some favors (i.e. get milk and cookies) and of course I do. We get settled in to watch I little tv. I start caressing (SP?) her back she tells me to stop. I wait for her to go to sleep and then slip out of bed and go for a walk. As I get out side, she yells down from the window, "What the hell are you doing?". I tell her and she replies "Really". Go for a long walk on a beautiful star lit night. Had a really good conversation with God. Get home she's still tossing and turning. So I reach over and put my hand on her hip. This seems to calm her. Then one of our girls couldn't sleep so I let her come up to sleep next to our bed. Wife gets upset. As I reach over to hold her she says "Don't". I'm crushed. Heart starts racing again. This morning as she leaves for "on-call" she says "have a nice day" and walks down stairs. After 12 years of a kiss every morning, now it's have a nice day, bull&&&&. So anyway I follow her down and ask what going on. She acts stupid for a moment and then says "Things are going to change". I say "I thought we were going to support and comfort each other until our split at the end of May". She says "Changes are going to happen". I say "well then I guess changes will happen on my side as well". I tell her to enjoy driving our new van today because it's the last time you will be able to. The end of that and here I am.<P>Now I just know that tonight when I get home that she'll have taken her wedding ring off, again (she knows that taking her ring off really hurts me). She was suppose to start sleeping on the couch a week ago and hasn't yet. Do I kick her to the couch tonight? If her ring is off, should I say "We are married, if you want to act singe then get the hell out, if not then quit this childish game". Should I just lay low if she says today that she is going to see her sister this weekend, then while she's gone pack her stuff and have it waiting on the porch?<P>From the questions I asked you can see what I want to do. <P>Should I?<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Update, she just called and said that she was not going to go away for the weekend. I apologized for this morning. I said "ou know that when we argue that I say things I don't fully mean". She said "So that means I can keep the van for now". I rolled over and said yes. She asked me a question that had nothing to do with marriage, I can't remember what it was but it ended with "is that what you want" I responded with "No, I want my wife back". She said "I can't give you that". I responded "You are the only one that can give me that, you won't give me that would be the appropiate answer". We ended the conversation nicely.<P>I don't think that I can live this way for another month and five days. Any Advise????????<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

(((Bill))) You are in my thoughts and prayers. I have no advice to offer, as I am in the same situation - I just wanted to let you know that I'm praying for you!

Thinking of giving my wife this letter. If anybody doesn't know we have planned to split up the end of May. We haven't filed yet and plan on using mediation in lieu of lawyers.<P><BR>Lisa,<P>This will probably be my last try to turn things around and I will not waste time pointing any fingers. You know how I feel about the situation and the effects that I believe it will have on the girls, you, and me. You know that I love you with all of my heart. You know that I would give anything to be with you forever. Like I have already told you I don’t believe that we can divorce and be friends. Friends don’t say and do the things that we have said and done to each other. The process has already caused much pain and much more pain is in the near future. <P>You have always said that we have great communication, which is a lie. We are terrible at communicating with each. There are to many misunderstandings to even begin to list. Why, because we do not know how to communicate to each other. I have heard that “Retrouvaille” has an excellent course in effective communication. It is my understanding that their program for helping distraught couples is based primarily on learning how to communicate. Our first priority in changing our marriage should be learning to communicate with each other.<P>The other day you said that you wished that you lived closer to your sisters. Let’s pretend that we stay together and explore that possibility. Finish out your college year at KWU. That gives me one year to seek employment in the area. I’m sure that the kids would be open to idea of moving up north as a family. There are several colleges close by that offer PA Programs. The closest is in Lacrosse, second closest is in Madison, and the third closest is in Iowa City.<P>What I want is to stop living in the past and create our future together. Basically, divorce our old ways of marriage and create a new marriage between us that will support the needs of both you and I.<P>If it truly is over and all hope is gone simply give me one last kiss and one last embrace, then leave. I can’t go through another month playing this agonizing charade. In leaving I ask, once again, that you don’t play games with our finances. You know that we need the last KCSL check to pay bills. Maybe you could live with Donna for a month, find a job and have enough money by June 1st for your place. We will need to set-up times to get our property settlement done before you start taking to many things from the house. Further we will need to sit down to work through the other issues of the divorce. We need to pick and schedule a mediator soon. It’s my understanding that you should have as much done as possible before going to the mediator.<P>Lisa, I sure never thought my like would end up like this. No matter what choice you make I want to thank you. Thank you for three wonderful children. Thank you for being my wife, friend, and lover. Thank you for the many wonderful memories that I will cherish as long as I live. Thank you.<P>Love,<P><BR>Bill<P>What do you think? <BR><P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Oh our poor Bill,<P>You have one month left, thats all. Your letter is threatening and controlling. It say to me; look Lisa I cant deal with this anymore, and I no longer have the patience to wait for you. Shape up or get out of my life.<P>This is my humble opinion Bill. I know its tough. Tell me where in plan A does it say that it will be easy for you. It doesnt!! You seem alot like me, thriving on infrequent bouts of affection/remorse expressed by our loved ones. When they dont come for awhile you wonder what you are doing wrong. Come on Bill. You are stronger than this. She is in PA school? Well there ya go. My H followed my footsteps and is now in nursing school. Do you have any clue how stessful it is? You become consumed with it. Just as you are consumed with her. It is the only way to pass. My house has gone to hell, and I know I should be cleaning out the closets and garage to get ready, but I feel consumed. Past two weeks spent most of my time alone here on this board.<P>Take a step back and look at the big picture. Two weeks ago I despised him so much that I wanted to leave right now. Not the best thing to do. And I knew my reactions were born of anger and frustration. I dont know about you, but I have NEVER made a good decision in that state! What helped me though is that he cant stand to see me hurting.<P>Your wife last night was stuggling with her composure. She wanted you to hold her and make love to her even though she knew it would give you mixed messages. When you brought the kid in, she was pissed off. Thought that you must not have wanted her. She is struggling here. She is too proud to actually admit that she craves your attention. So she wont make the first move. <P>Then she acted completely childish and distant this AM. And her response to you only addressed the van because she does not want you to know she is having any regrets.<P>Think about it Bill. You dont see any signs/symptoms of remorse on her part. But they are there. I can see them. She is enjoying the feeling she gets when she pushes you away, because she knows you hate it and have no control over her. And she knows that bugs you. DO you REALLY believe, that after 12 years of marraige this is east for her? She just woke up one day and decided she wanted a new life? Presto bammo. NO!! She is struggliing too. She knows the consequences of her actions. Ecspecially on the kids.<P>To me, no offense, but she seems pretty immature right now. It might be that she lacks the coping skills to deal with this mess she made. Like hollering out to you from the window. And how old did you say she was? It confuses her to see you react like this. To not be trying to constantly change her mind and manipulate her.<P>Aren't these responses quite typical when you use "tough Love?" It bothers her to know that you are ok. Doing things for your self. She is just exibiting it in a very childish way. <P>Dont fall for her trappings Bill. She is really trying to break you here. Keep right on doing what you have been, and sit back and watch how it torments her. Its tough dammit I know. When all you want is to be held by her and comforted. But you are stronger than that aren't ya?<P>Dara

Dara, <P>That's why I come hear. To hear reality from people like you. I am so wrapped up in this mess that I can't see the obvious.<P>First off, she's 28 and going to college next fall. Right now she is a SAHM but she does on-call EMT two days a week.<P>You made a good point about her pushing me away knowing what that makes me feel like. Does she enjoy the power that she holds? It sure seems like it.<P>"She know the consequences of her actions. Especially on the kids." I don't believe this. In our talks she seems to think that the kids are going to pull through just fine. True they are doin good now, but once they realize the finallity after we separate, they will suffer.<P>Again, thank you<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Yes Bill,<P>She enjoys the power that she holds. Does she have ANY clue how to support herself while she pursues being a PA?<BR>Over here in WA its a masters program.<P>You said before that you have an 11 yo D, married twelve years. Are you my husband? She is 28 too? Holy crap. Married at 16? Me too. SAHM for ten years.<P>Remember the book by Dr. Suess's AKA's called "Are you my mother?" Sweet sweet book.<P>Are you my husband?<P>Need a laugh right now. My ribs are bruised after being elbowed quite forcefully from him after I attempted to put my arm around him last night.<P>Too bad you live in Kansas. I would invite ya over so we could have coffee and talk about how the evil clones have taken over our spouses.<P>Dara

Back to the top...<P>Oh Biilllll...<P>Where arreee you?

She doesn't have a clue how she will survive. It's a bach. program here. Yes she was 16 and I was 18. Guess what I went into the military, spooky how similar the stories are. HEAD way up in the fog. She thinks that I should support her 100% for the next four years. She hasn't always been a SAHM, as a matter of fact she has had an income for over 70% of our marriage.<P>No, I'm not your husband. But I do wish that my wife was a little more like and your husband was a little more like me. <P>I take my coffee black. <P>I'll be here at work for another four hours. If you want to chat more.<P>Bill<P>How was last night, except the elbow part. You left in such a good mood.<P><P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-