I am troubled by the notion that my situation has been *used* (for lack of a better term) to condone an affair. <P>I suppose I should have realized that it could happen. But I honestly never considered that it would happen -- and am saddened by it, nonetheless.<P>I am all over the boards these days, and my story is out there for the world to see. I don't think I need to re-tell it here (a collective sigh of relief heard all over MB). <P>My ONLY INTENT when I came back here was to tell WHAT NOT TO DO... and I have reached out to those whom I can "shake" a bit with my reality. Yes, I have seen this from all sides (having been both betrayed and betrayer) and yes, I have knowledge of all sorts of subjects -- because I *could* have been pregnant after my one hop in the sack, and I *did* have some type of sexually transmitted disease after #OW 1 of my ex's, and I have gone into deep depression (I'm still on Zoloft), and my ex still has the OW that helped to end the marriage, and I am divorced... so many little and big things that add up to an intimate knowledge I wish I didn't have.<P>I have never come on to say, "Hey! Dump the bum." I believe in marriage.<P>I have never come on to say, "I'm in love, I'm in love, with the new guy!! We're getting married, yippie!!" or "Life is sooo much better now that I rid myself of that ball and chain named David"... and I can't imagine a scenerio where I will.<P>My purpose, again, is to share insight borne of complete and utter pain.<P>I do not condone affairs.<BR>I believe in marriage -- and lifelong fidelity.<BR>I love people, and want to help.<BR>I am human.<P>I know this all sounds very self-oriented, and for that I apologize. I don't actually expect anyone to write replies, because, frankly, what could you say?<P>I do, however, want it understood that NOBODY belongs on these boards promoting infidelity.<P>That I'm okay and here to tell you my story is nothing short of a miracle.<P>I want all of us to have a miracle -- within ourselves, and within our marriages. <P>I have written a copy of this to the GQ forum as well, since that is where I originally came back and wrote my story. I want to make sure that anyone who cares will see it.<P>Thank you for reading and listening.<P>May all of us find peace and love in our sphere of the world -- and share it! <BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

We love you.<P>Lori

Dear Sheryl,<P>I think that anyone who has honestly taken the time to really read your many many helpful insightful posts does understand where you are coming from.<P>Those who want to find justification or rationalization will find it anywhere - I know it disturbs you to be used as such, but honestly, they'd find justification anywhere, it's not your fault!!<P>((hugs)) BR

HEY!!!!! just for the record cheryl, (well in case this post was referring to me), I in no way am using your experience to justify anything at all. I am totally responsible for my choices, and on balance would agree affairs are generally not good ideas, and that at least in one sense (not resolving marital problems first) have behaved irresponsibly. My only observation re affairs is that they are a normal behavioural consequence of being human, and therefore are not categorically wrong, or never of value. Likewise I do not think arguing that just cause a marriage has existed for some length of time it is automatically worth saving, or even worth making any effort to save at all, it all depends. Where I am at right now, is deciding whether I want to make any more efforts (expend emotional and time resources to a probable lost cause) to fix my marriage. Yes, the affair sharpened that focus, but I had tried for many years to fix stuff, till I finally gave up and just existed. The affair has made it clear to me I must wake up and choose, and by the ow not being available, seems the choice is mostly a pure one, and is about the marriage itself. Although some of you are giving me a lot of grief over how honest I am being with myself, and I do appreciate that. Ultimmately I must decide for me, my wife cannot, none of you can, no marriage gurus can, just me, and whatever I decide, plz understand I take full responsibility for that. You all have opinions and your stories, and that is helpful, but I have no intention of making decisions by emulating anyone elses life. Right or wrong your life has been what it was, and it worked for you (hopefully) it cannot be an example for anyone else, and I think most rational people understand that about others lives. Sorry if anything I wrote sounded like I was using your story in such a manner. You are a statistic in the overall story of human relationships for our species, and that is simply a fact, as are we all, but none of us can be a standard, lives are much too complicated and each must be lived and decided about on it's own merits. And if this post was not referring to me at all, oh well BTW I would agree that the promotion of infidelity is not good thing at all, but IMO that is not really the point. The point is that infidelity is an inevitable consequence of marriage for our speices, is not inherently good or bad, any more than marriage is good or bad. Infidelity would not exist if all marital choices were perfectly made, and further that humans did not have behavioural deficiencies. But that is not reality, so infidelity is part of our species psychological check and balances re mating. Serves no purpose to condemn it, rather we should understand it, and learn how to minimize it, first by teaching people much better mating selection skills, and interpersonal behavioural skills.

Thank you <B>Lori, BR,</B> and <B>confused</B>,<P>Honestly, I wasn't expecting any replies on this... so I thank you for the pleasant surprise! <P>Lori and BR, big hugs and much love to you...<P>confused, because you're a man I am sending you great big platonic hugs and hopes that your marriage can be repaired and will THRIVE.<P>Sheryl

Sheryl,<P>I didn't see this thread before I posted on another...<P>I completely and totally believe you when you say that you aren't (consciously) doing anything to reinforce this notion. However, I must point this out....<P>You started a relationship with your current boyfriend before you were divorced. Your boyfriend also was not divorced. By definition, you both were OP. It really serves no purpose to wonder what would have happened to your marriages if you weren't together. You are now divorced and it is a moot point. What I AM addressing is the issue of "appearances" and your concern about being used to support extramarital relationships. <P>As long as you come here and as long as people support your decision in this matter you are (consciously or unconsciously) supporting the notion that extramarital relationships are OK and that they (sometimes) work. Same thing goes for BonnieSept. <P>I have no desire to get into an argument about who deserves happiness. None of us deserves happiness at another person's expense. I don't believe you got yours at another person's expense, however, that is the impression you are leaving with those who don't know the whole story. The fact that *I* even make that little caveat is a problem. <P>As I said on another thread...true happiness comes from living according to one's values. Whether you like it or not, you are leaving the impression that your values do not include fidelity because of the existence and support of your current relationship. I'm sorry. That is one of the consequences of the choices you are making. The other consequence is that you now feel compelled to explain why your circumstances are different. Either be at peace and decide for yourself that you have not violated your values, OR, make other decisions.

I wrote on the other thread, Student... a nice big post to you.<P>The only thing I can add to the other post is this:<P>Yep. Guilty.<P>And I will say that despite the fact that I "promote infidelity", I am somehow, for whatever reason, helping some people -- and that was my goal.<P>As far as being with the new man before divorce (on either side) was final... well, what can I say. Right again.<P>So, what to do???<P>Leave?<P>Hmmm... you know... I really will think about it. Maybe just lurk a bit... maybe I'll actually, and finally, leave <wry smile>... we both know how hard that is, huh???<P>I don't know Student... I don't know all the answers...but thanks for asking the questions... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

NB-Sheryl,<BR>I feel the need to reply. You are one of my favorite people here on this board. I've been lurking for about 2 yrs now, and don't post often. I think that in one of my very first posts I mentioned you as someone who had given me insight.<BR>I remember when you were redecorating and you were going to repaint your room yellow. I was so excited for you, because it was what I was going through at the same time. <P>What you bring to these boards is priceless. You beat yourself up too much for your recent choices. I personally am happy that you seem to have found peace. Of course I don't condone infidelity, but neither do you. <P>Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I admire you for who you are so don't go away.<BR>And remember, if someone is looking for a reason to rationalize their affair they will use anything and anyone. If it isn't you it will be someone else.

Sheryl,<P>Sweetheart, I'm not asking you to leave. I don't even want to suggest it. <P>There are lots of people here who would LOVE for me to leave. I've been a thorn in quite a few people's sides. I say that with a mixture of pride and regret, really.<P>Pride, at standing up for myself and not being overly affected by other's opinions (honestly, something I needed help with). Regret, because I did lash out on a few people. My message often gets lost in the way I present it. I've learned to keep my mouth shut more often and let people figure it out for themselves. <P>My concern is a personal one. In my own life, I struggle daily in my efforts to be honest with myself and responsible in my actions in all ways. Yea, I set pretty high standards for myself. Maybe too high. I see that in you. There is obviously some kind of struggle going on somewhere. Only you know where that is at.

NB,<P>I must admit that the appearance of promoting infidelity, even though I know that is not what you intend, bothers me as well. <P>I have always believed that basically good people would eventually do the right thing, and can not be happy in the long term unless they are, and I have all along thought you were a good person. I hope you find peace in your life, but I can not honestly wish you peace in your new relationship, not merely because of its beginnings, but even more importantly because I believe very strongly that children, even near adult ones, need their parents reasonably close by. My sister moved to Europe a number of years ago, and my nephew, at 18, was obviously hurt, though I do not think he ever mentioned it to his mother. I worry about your son - my son is only a year or two younger, and doesn't have the same sorts of special needs that your son does, but he would fall apart under those circumstances. <P>Student,<P>You're back! I was just thinking today of posting a "Where are you" message. Don't ever think that you haven't been very helpful, because you definitely have. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited April 20, 2001).]

oh, me again...<P>Actually, this issue just happens to hit on an area I've debated quite a bit on this forum...<P>I really wish Harley hadn't created this divorced/divorcing forum at all, although, I understand why he did. <P>Mostly it is split between those who don't want a divorce and are devastated by it, and those who seem to be pretty happy with their new circumstances (for whatever reason). In the case of the latter group, I'm sure they believe they are giving the former group hope for future "happiness". I think this is (partly) your intention on coming here too. For me, the only question that comes to mind when I hear this is...why bother getting married at all? Oh sure, divorce causes this temporary little inconvenience and pain, but after all is said and done, both people just go out and find someone new... everyone is happy, the kids adjust, etc, etc.<P>When you said it would make me barf to hear you were in "love" again with someone new, you were partly correct. I don't WISH for you to be UNHAPPY. I guess I'm just not too big on the method you chose. For me, love is not a feeling, it is a choice. I understand, though, that our culture places much higher importance on feelings and living for the moment than it does on choices.<P>"Confused" in the other thread made points that are quite popular. Marriage is more like an agreement to be roommates than it is a spiritual, committed, life-time relationship. These days, people only want commitment if it feels good. <P>All indescretions, all bad choices, all failings are put aside as soon as someone finds someone new. To me, it doesn't matter who did what. Marriage is just a word, and means very little these days, especially when people can so easily just hook up with someone else. This is just how things are now, I guess. Unless I plan to end up like the dinosaur, and extinct, I need to "evolve" to this new morality I suppose. <P>When I was in high school, it was a big deal to have your ears pierced more than once. Now I see kids with 3, 4, or even more piercings, and not just their ears. I'm guessing that is what marriage will be like in the future. The first timers will be the exception, and everyone else will be at it a handful of times. <P>Anyway, I came here to respond to you Sheryl. This place serves no purpose for me. TTFN.<P>Hi Nellie!!<P>I hope you are doing well these days... I was thinking we could create a motto for the divorcing board or some other moniker.<P>How about:<BR>DALI (Divorced And Loving It)<P>N-PAF (New Penises Are Fun)<BR>N-VAF (New Vaginas Are Fun)<P>IDWO (It Didn't Work Out)<P>and for the motto:<BR>"Trying = work. Dating = fun. We're all about fun."<P>"Here at MB, Love is a four-letter word"<P>"Come to MB, where Love is not a choice, it's an accident"<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 20, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AStrongerMe:<BR><B>NB-Sheryl,<BR>I feel the need to reply. You are one of my favorite people here on this board. I've been lurking for about 2 yrs now, and don't post often. I think that in one of my very first posts I mentioned you as someone who had given me insight.<BR>I remember when you were redecorating and you were going to repaint your room yellow. I was so excited for you, because it was what I was going through at the same time. <P>What you bring to these boards is priceless. You beat yourself up too much for your recent choices. I personally am happy that you seem to have found peace. Of course I don't condone infidelity, but neither do you. <P>Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I admire you for who you are so don't go away.<BR>And remember, if someone is looking for a reason to rationalize their affair they will use anything and anyone. If it isn't you it will be someone else.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well jeepers, <B>A Stronger Me</B>,<P>Nah, I NEVER go away... joined at the hip to MB, that's me! <P>Ya know... sigh... it's just hard sometimes being in my skin. I want to do the right things... and I TRY... my heart is in the right place. I hope that counts for something.<P>Thanks for the wonderfully kind thoughts...<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>NB,<P>I must admit that the appearance of promoting infidelity, even though I know that is not what you intend, bothers me as well. <P>I have always believed that basically good people would eventually do the right thing, and can not be happy in the long term unless they are, and I have all along thought you were a good person. I hope you find peace in your life, but I can not honestly wish you peace in your new relationship, not merely because of its beginnings, but even more importantly because I believe very strongly that children, even near adult ones, need their parents reasonably close by. My sister moved to Europe a number of years ago, and my nephew, at 18, was obviously hurt, though I do not think he ever mentioned it to his mother. I worry about your son - my son is only a year or two younger, and doesn't have the same sorts of special needs that your son does, but he would fall apart under those circumstances. <P>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited April 20, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, you are VERY RIGHT about my son... very right indeed. It kills me. I had expected David to somehow change (sound familiar? Like when we were married)... and I guess I thought that would be enough to sustain our son until I could get him up here... but David is having so much trouble himself and doesn't really know how to approach things, and won't ask me either. I am working to get our son up here with me, at least temporarily (per a visitation agreement with David, of course).<P>About my choices... yes, right again. I don't mean to condone, but I guess it could be taken that way by some... the point of this thread, truly.<P>I appreciate your kindness in vocalizing (or writing, I guess I should say) your feelings.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>oh, me again...<P>Actually, this issue just happens to hit on an area I've debated quite a bit on this forum...<P>I really wish Harley hadn't created this divorced/divorcing forum at all, although, I understand why he did. <P>Mostly it is split between those who don't want a divorce and are devastated by it, and those who seem to be pretty happy with their new circumstances (for whatever reason). In the case of the latter group, I'm sure they believe they are giving the former group hope for future "happiness". I think this is (partly) your intention on coming here too. For me, the only question that comes to mind when I hear this is...why bother getting married at all? Oh sure, divorce causes this temporary little inconvenience and pain, but after all is said and done, both people just go out and find someone new... everyone is happy, the kids adjust, etc, etc.<P>When you said it would make me barf to hear you were in "love" again with someone new, you were partly correct. I don't WISH for you to be UNHAPPY. I guess I'm just not too big on the method you chose. For me, love is not a feeling, it is a choice. I understand, though, that our culture places much higher importance on feelings and living for the moment than it does on choices.<P>"Confused" in the other thread made points that are quite popular. Marriage is more like an agreement to be roommates than it is a spiritual, committed, life-time relationship. These days, people only want commitment if it feels good. <P>All indescretions, all bad choices, all failings are put aside as soon as someone finds someone new. To me, it doesn't matter who did what. Marriage is just a word, and means very little these days, especially when people can so easily just hook up with someone else. This is just how things are now, I guess. Unless I plan to end up like the dinosaur, and extinct, I need to "evolve" to this new morality I suppose. <P>When I was in high school, it was a big deal to have your ears pierced more than once. Now I see kids with 3, 4, or even more piercings, and not just their ears. I'm guessing that is what marriage will be like in the future. The first timers will be the exception, and everyone else will be at it a handful of times. <P>Anyway, I came here to respond to you Sheryl. This place serves no purpose for me. TTFN.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well Student, thanks for coming by here... you know you are welcome ANY TIME by me and so many others.<P>You make valid points, but then, you always have.<P>I have nothing to add that won't sound like veiled justifications...<P>

Hey TS, good to see ya, wondered where ya were!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Mostly it is split between those who don't want a divorce and are devastated by it, and those who seem to be pretty happy with their new circumstances (for whatever reason...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I must tell you that I fall into both categories. March 13, 1999 is a day [ok, night] that will live in infamy. That was the time I found out that my dearest W Valerie was having an A for the past two years. I blew a nut!!! Translation, lost my mind [what little I had left]<P>I think I tried my best at reconsiling the M. No, I didn't perform a perfect Plan A, but, I did what I could with the feelings that I was wrestling with deep inside. We went out to dinner, I bought her flowers [yellow roses], balloons and sent cards. Nothing really new, I have done this for the last 13 years we were together.<P>I could not get it out of my mind that with all of my effort she was still seeing Brian. Did it burn my [censored]? You betcha!!! Did I give up and move to Plan B to save myself? YEAH BUDDY!!! I had decided that the last card or correspondence that she would receive from me would be her 30th Bday card and I stuck to it.<P>So here I am more than two years down the road enjoying life again. Do I wish I still had my "old" Valerie back?, sure. That's not going to happen and I refuse to sit and sulk about it until my death. Life is too damn short.<P>She is the one calling me now. Guess she found out that the grass on the other side is Astroturf and not real.<P>So maybe Sheryl is wrong for what she did. Maybe I am wrong for being happy again as well. And maybe you are wrong too. Who is to judge?<P>Happiness comes from within. No one can give you happiness. I'm having a blast again.<P>BTW, I have kevlar underware on, so it's your turn. <P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>The Pinhead

Ah, Zippy, thank you for saying what I couldn't seem to dig up...<P>I too am both happy and sad... <P>I guess I'm just too damn worried -- a LOT lately -- about wanting everyone to like me and respect me.<P>...sigh...<P>I guess I need to grow up a bit, eh??

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR><B>I guess I'm just too damn worried -- a LOT lately -- about wanting everyone to like me and respect me.<P>...sigh...<P>I guess I need to grow up a bit, eh??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sheryl, there is only one person in this world that you should worry about liking and respecting you. You see her everyday in the mirror.<P>We have had our hearts ripped out and stomped upon. Healing takes a little bit of time. Emotional scars are the toughest.<P>Grow up? Errrr. I have a severe case of Peter Pan Syndrome and will never grow up. "I don't like grown ups"<P>The Village Idiot

Yeah, I know you're right Tim...<P>I'm sitting here at 12:06 am, while my BF's children sleep in the other room, and he sits on the couch watching TV, looking content, and I stop to wonder why I've allowed this to happen. "This" being the posting furiously here, the feelings of "do they understand me"... all that stuff.<P>It's a quiet night, I've talked to my kids, I'm healthy, I'm loved...<P>Why do I do this to myself? And you might have noticed that all it took was one bit of questioning from someone I care about (dearly) to throw me a curve...<P>Hmmm... I'm so tired of thinking. I'd just like to live awhile, you know? I think I'll go make us some cocoa and sit on the couch with him... maybe get a hug... and not question this anymore... just live. Maybe Student is right... I should just say I want to be happy, damn them all. But it just isn't so... NOT damn them all... but I do want to be happy....

Medic,<P>"She is the one calling me now. Guess she found out that the grass on the other side is Astroturf and not real."<P>How nice for your ego... For me, life is too short to keep starting from scratch with someone new. Life is too short to be a "tool" or an accessory in the life of someone new because they "deserve happiness"--at any cost apparently. Life is too short to invest in a new relationship when most believe that life is too short to invest in its' current relationships. <P>Life is too long to discard my history. <P>I'm obviously in the minority. <P>Sheryl,<BR>You started this thread for a reason. You noticed this trend before I did.<P>I've learned that, once I am in accordance with my own values, I'm pretty oblivious to criticism. You can take comfort in this though. You are one of the ones who have "evolved" into the morality of our times. That is not a judgment of either positive or negative. It is simply a fact. I think this societal change is somewhat similar to the change families felt when the industrial revolution first started. The ones who "evolved" became rich in the new society. The ones who didn't stayed or became destitute, destined to be the poor working class for the next 200 yrs. And so it is with marriage now. The ones who can skip through multiple marriages/relationships with barely a scratch will thrive. The ones who don't form binding attachments to spouses or children will be the ones who survive. <P>confused,<BR>"Serves no purpose to condemn it, rather we should understand it, and learn how to minimize it, first by teaching people much better mating selection skills, and interpersonal behavioural skills."<P>You kind of contradict yourself here. What is the incentive to minimize infidelity if it is not considered "wrong". However, I am going to follow your logic for the sake of argument. It is not people's mating selection skills that are the problem. Obviously, when they find a new mate, they are finding the appropriate one for their current state of being, ie the middle aged empty nester dumps his wife who is past her breeding years and finds a young woman of breeding age who he is well equipped to support. <P>You argue that marriages will last if they make better choices in the beginning. Yet, statistics report that those who live together before marriage get divorced 85% of the time. Arranged marriages end up in divorce less than 5% of the time. It has nothing to do with mate selection ability. It has everything to do with one's assumptions concerning marriage once you are in it.<P>Now, we could argue whether marriage is an institution worth saving. I wonder. Apparently lots of folks here are doing quite fine in their new relationships. Since that seems to be the prevailing trend, why not go with it? Not only that, make sure you are the first one out the door when things start going downhill. You know, kinda like keeping your resume updated. It's good to always be on the lookout for something better. If anything, what I see here are people who are disgruntled that they were dumped first. If finding a new person was that unpalatable, they wouldn't be doing it. <P>I'm a pragmatist. Apparently, my mistake in my marriage was getting too attached to him. It seems that the ones who are getting along fine are the ones who weren't TOO attached and kept the divorce door option open. It occurred to me that the only reason why this upsets me is because I haven't "evolved" yet into this new way of thinking. <P>You came to the perfect place, confused. Unlike some others here, I'm not going to suggest you work on your marriage. For better or for worse, you need to be true to yourself--right? Either marriage is a dying institution, and you are one of those trail-blazing pioneers who is setting the standard for relationships in the future. OR, you are making a grave mistake and you need to hurry up and suffer your consequences instead of dragging them out and torturing your wife anymore. You don't believe marriage is for life. That's ok. Alot of people don't (but don't realize it until later) and clearly they are not struck down by a bolt of lightening. Alot of them claim to be "happier" now even. Perhaps you didn't know that going into this first one, but you are smarter now and won't make that promise again I hope. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 21, 2001).]

Student,<P>I don't know if you'll even come back here, but I would like to address something with you.<P>Think back to before you were married the second time. Think about how you still believed that love existed, and at how you fell in love with your second H. Think about how you felt bad that the first marriage ended the way it did, but you were ready to make a try again.<P>Was your first marriage real and forever, in YOUR mind? I know it was.<P>But in your first H's mind it wasn't, so you were FORCED to go forward. <P>You met and married H #2. You fell in love with him -- deep love.<P>You have been married twice now, and you're sick of seeing people do it over and over again like it means nothing. You believe that marriage vows are forever -- you always did, yet you (for whatever reason) were forced to reassess after the first marriage.<P>You've learned some valuable lesssons, and not always the way you wanted to...<P>So now you are here, telling others what you've learned. <P>...and guess who else is doing that??? Yep, me.<P>Student, you *said* that your words to me were neither positive or negative... I disagree. They were negative. Period. <P>Yes, your words hurt me, but not for the reasons you think. Others have said things that were blunt, but I "expected" that from them -- and others may expect this type of discourse from you, but I didn't, and I think you might understand why.<P>I'm sorry if *I* strike a chord with you. And Student, I'm sorry that you're hurting... and obviously you are hurting...<P>I never wanted to hurt anyone, and clearly, CLEARLY, I have done the opposite.<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 21, 2001).]