Hello...<P>Just spent 3 days in DC and Philly checking things out for a potential future move. H has withdrawn on the idea of me buying a home and then him moving out. He has accepted a position in Chicago that suits him professionally really well.<P>Now, the idea is to buy or rent a duplex, me on one side and him on the other so that the kids can have free access to both of us - via the shared backyard.<P>Although I'm happy for him and his job, I'm still sad. He's adamant about his plan to *dump* me. His friends and siblings ask, "Are you going to feel divorced enough living next to her?" He is willing to give up some of his needs for distance for the sake of the kids.<P>Yes, I understand that this also is good for me b/c it gives me the ongoing chance to try and meet EN. But, he's clear and hasn't wavered on his plans. Through these past three days together in DC, he's been nice and we're trying to be *friends* but it's so painful for me.<P>I don't have a full-time job, just consulting projects. I don't know if I'll be able to make it on my own anywhere with my income. Maybe just fears creeping up because I am rather resilient. BUT, we have 3 boys and I don't want to work full-time because then I won't be there for them...<P>The future is unknown, but it includes a move from our transitionary housing with my parents. The kids don't know their dad wants to leave Mommy. But, my H says the kids won't feel it if we're close to each other. <P>What should I do? Do I even have a choice? I need to put the kids first and that's equal access to both of us. I just feel like I have nothing to look forward to. Plan A has worked as far as enabling us to talk to each other - except for those sacred emotionally charged areas that caused pain/problems in the past... <P>He calls this, "reaping the consequences of my controlling, manipulating, domineering, and religiously judmental behavior..." for which I've repented and seen the error of my ways. I continue to work on my issues of anger, selfishness and judgments of others but it's over and it makes it hard for me to look forward to anything.<P>Thanks for any insight you have...<P>ps - feeling so rejected makes it difficult not to fall into the trappings of someone else who would show even the slightest concern and care for me... I know it's just a trap and would destroy any chance. <P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do I even have a choice? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course you do. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He calls this, "reaping the consequences of my controlling, manipulating, domineering, and religiously judmental behavior..." for which I've repented and seen the error of my ways. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Haven't you ever heard that a good defense is always a good offense?<P>This is not about you reaping consequences. Lets get really clear: This is about your husband avoiding consequences at you and your children's expense. This is solely about his own self-centered interests. Period.<P>You know what I have found to be true, is that whenever one partner has problems with manipulation and control...so does the other one. And I see your husband playing your guilt and your fear for his own benefit.<P>I know, because mine did, and still does. I'm better at recognizing it though.<P>By moving you and the children away from support or outside influences of other family members, he'll have an easier time of using your fear, guilt and isolation to keep you from making too many waves while he gets on with his life.<P>This is about him getting control of you.<P>He wants out of his marriage, but he doesn't want to face the consequences. And so he's going to do everything he can to get you to enable him - providing a comfortable environment for his unacceptable behavior.<P>I know that you don't feel there is someone else. I think this reeks of an OW. I hope for your sake, that I am wrong. What are you going to do when inevitably he decides that he is free to date and sleep with whomever he chooses?<P>What are you going to be doing to your children when they wake up in the morning and find girlfriend's car outside their home? How are you going to keep from exposing your children to whatever outside influences your H is contemplating bringing into your family life? Your kids are going to be confused at the very least. You won't be really married, but not really separated, and every time a girlfriend shows up to stay with your husband, their hopes of a return to normal life are going to be dashed. And what exactly are you teaching your children by dragging them across country to cling to a man who wants to treat you like this - for their full viewing pleasure?<P>"For the kids" is such a great line - it lets him play your emotions, and it allows you to avoid taking responsiblity for your own life and your own choices.<P>OvrCs, from where I stand, it looks like you are not only choosing to hop on the rollercoaster, but you are dragging your children with you.<P>I *know* you want your marriage. But letting him do this to you and the children is not the way to save it <P>Have you called Steve Harley about this? Please, please, please do this. This is a HUGE decision, and I think you need professional help in seeing what is the best path to take.<P><B>You</B> are not responsible for his relationship with his children. He is. You are not obligated to uproot yourself and your children at what is going to be the most emotionally and financially difficult time of your life - walking away from any support, security or help - so that HE gets to see his children.<P>This is why people stay married and WORK at being married. That is why they COMMIT and take RESPONSIBILITY for something - acting like ADULTS rather than spoiled children who want what they want because they want it. Daddies who CHOOSE to LEAVE the home (for whatever reason) don't get to see their children every day. It's just a fact.<P>I know, you feel that you are making sure your kids get to see their dad. OvrCs, you haven't refused this man visitation have you? You haven't kicked him out of the house, moved away, or tried to take custody from him have you? Of course you haven't. <P>If you were doing those things, I'd be the first to say, OvrCs, your husband has a right to see his kids, and they have the right to a relationship with them. <P>But you aren't. Instead....your HUSBAND is the one placing an impediment to HIS relationship with them.<P>And this is not YOUR job to fix.<P>If he wants to move, let him. If he loves his children, he can stay and work on his marriage, and THEN move.<P>Personally OvrCs, my alarm bells are still going off. It's my opinion that you should seek legal advice ASAP.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B> Haven't you ever heard that a good defense is always a good offense? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And a very good point... but using the sports analogy, one has to study the defense to know the best offense. This is what my counselor (in essence) is saying to me now. Don't make any decisions, just pray and wait. Neither enable him - as usual, nor decide... just wait. It's been so hard but I can see how it helps me study his game plan a little more.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is not about you reaping consequences. Lets get really clear: This is about your husband avoiding consequences at you and your children's expense. This is solely about his own self-centered interests. Period. You know what I have found to be true, is that whenever one partner has problems with manipulation and control...so does the other one. And I see your husband playing your guilt and your fear for his own benefit. I know, because mine did, and still does. I'm better at recognizing it though. <P>By moving you and the children away from support or outside influences of other family members, he'll have an easier time of using your fear, guilt and isolation to keep you from making too many waves while he gets on with his life.<P>This is about him getting control of you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tough, but may have some element of truth about this. I'd hate to throw the book at him as in his mind, he seems to be thinking of everyone. I'm not sure if this is all intentional or if he's just blind to his own self-absorption at this point... still studying to see.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He wants out of his marriage, but he doesn't want to face the consequences. And so he's going to do everything he can to get you to enable him - providing a comfortable environment for his unacceptable behavior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What are some natural consequences that result of his behavior? I'm not seeing clearly... I just think of what's best for the kids and think the rest is my "cross to bear."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that you don't feel there is someone else. I think this reeks of an OW. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know. If there is he denies it - like he'd admit it anyway. I'm not ruling it out but can't live my life in fear - as this is what got me in trouble last year with him when I suspected as much with the woman he was *friends* with.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What are you going to be doing to your children when they wake up in the morning and find girlfriend's car outside their home? How are you going to keep from exposing your children to whatever outside influences your H is contemplating bringing into your family life? Your kids are going to be confused at the very least. You won't be really married, but not really separated, and every time a girlfriend shows up to stay with your husband, their hopes of a return to normal life are going to be dashed. And what exactly are you teaching your children by dragging them across country to cling to a man who wants to treat you like this - for their full viewing pleasure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good questions, but we did talk about future relationships and he said, "Why would the kids have to know about other relationships?" Hmmm, why would the kids have to know? Maybe what they don't (and their mother doesn't) know already won't hurt them. But, then again this could be conjecture and I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt - especially when he denies it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>OvrCs, from where I stand, it looks like you are not only choosing to hop on the rollercoaster, but you are dragging your children with you. I *know* you want your marriage. But letting him do this to you and the children is not the way to save it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am sincerely trying to think of what I can do without being accused of "always thinking of myself"... but then again, I just got off the airplane and the flight attendant said, "Before assisting anyone else, be sure to put your own oxygen mask on." So, there has to be some element of taking care of myself in order to be of service to my kids.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you called Steve Harley about this? Please, please, please do this. This is a HUGE decision, and I think you need professional help in seeing what is the best path to take.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not yet. I'm still working through some of this with my local counselor... I'm not overly thrilled with the 'plan' she lays out for me 'to wait and be prayerful'. So, I may try Steve soon.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You</B> are not responsible for his relationship with his children. He is. You are not obligated to uproot yourself and your children at what is going to be the most emotionally and financially difficult time of your life - walking away from any support, security or help - so that HE gets to see his children. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hear what you're saying but I want to do what is RIGHT for all and not just for me. I also do not want to enable my H at the expense of myself and my sanity. I just can't see a win:win at the moment... so maybe that's God saying "Wait."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is why people stay married and WORK at being married. That is why they COMMIT and take RESPONSIBILITY for something - acting like ADULTS rather than spoiled children who want what they want because they want it. Daddies who CHOOSE to LEAVE the home (for whatever reason) don't get to see their children every day. It's just a fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unless there is collaboration between us. He doesn't want to work on our relationship... even to the point of saying "no, not now" when I ask him to seek counseling to work out our parenting team approach. I guess I could use this as leverage to get him to work on things that I KNOW he'd never do once he gets me and the kids there. I will have no room to negotiate then because he'll have gotten everything he wants.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Instead....your HUSBAND is the one placing an impediment to HIS relationship with them. And this is not YOUR job to fix. If he wants to move, let him. If he loves his children, he can stay and work on his marriage, and THEN move. Personally OvrCs, my alarm bells are still going off. It's my opinion that you should seek legal advice ASAP.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I'm thinking it might be time for this. But, I feel like if I do, it will be like a self-fulfilling prophecy... but I also don't want to bury my head in the sand.<P>Thanks for your input. Your advice is sound and I will wrestle with the truth in it while also considering what my real options are and consequences to my H's decision to accept this job in Chicago. I'm just drawing a blank and feel it's up to me to move - or I'm the bad "guy"....<P>Thanks again...<P><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

So, the choice for him has been made. What are natural consequences to his wanting to form two separate homes? I don't want to continue enabling his choices but also don't want be adversarial... what's the middle road? Any thoughts?<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Hi OvrCs,<P>I'm sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday....my day was rather full and I got myself a nice sunburn!! <P>I know how torn and hurt and upset you must be feeling by all of this. I know your brain is going 200 miles a minute, trying to find that angle that is going to make your ugly mess come out OK.<P>Please. Call Steve TODAY. If you want to save your marriage, you need to talk to Steve.<P>Now...<P>Again, about your H control over you...<P>OvrCs, your H is trying to put you in a situation in which you will have NO emotional help, no family to help, AND very little legal recourse for at least 6 months to a year.<P>There's part of me that just wants to scream at you: WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!?<P>If this man wants a divorce and is making all these plans...I would be willing to bet he's already thought about alot of this. He'll be able to do whatever he wants...and you'll have no recourse. I don't know your H, but I doubt he's stupid. Either he knows exactly what he is setting you up for, or he's so incredibly fogged by his own selfish interest, that he doesn't care.<P>Perhaps I'm over reacting. <P>You say that he's thinking of everyone...but exactly where is the benefit in all of this for YOU? I don't exactly see any benefit for YOU personally at all, and I see a whole lot of bad stuff just waiting to happen... And as I have pointed out to you repeatedly...where is the benefit for your children?<P>They get to see dad? They can do that where you live now. He can move out, get divorced, and get a job nearby so he can be in their lives.<P>I'll say it again. WHO does this move benefit???????<P>Your H. And he wants YOU and YOUR KIDS to uproot your lives for him.<P>He is deciding to divorce. He is deciding to move. He is doing all of these things for himself.<P>The "best for everyone" line sounds great though, doesn't it? He's playing on your emotions...you have such a desire to be fair...and you want your children to have the best possible lives...what good mom doesn't?<P>OvrCs, I don't know your H's real intentions. I can only know what you have told me, and maybe I'm over reacting.<P>But darn it, see an attorney. What are you going to do when your H decides, like many other spouses here, that he doesn't owe you any support?<P>How are you going to track him down and get the court to do it when he is living out of state? And how are you going to do it if you move to a brand new state, and they want you to wait 6 months or a year before filing?<P>Do you see what he is doing?<P>This sounds to me like he is carefully setting things up so that you are unable to make waves when he decides to embark on his new life. <P>As for new relationships and your kids "not needing to know" - unless he's going to put it in writing...don't count on it.<P>OvrCs, at the point that he decided to divorce you, that's when his welfare stopped being your responsiblity. <P>You need to put you and your kids first, and <B>stop worrying about what he thinks about you</B>. He's using your guilt, and your desire to do what is right. He reminds me of my H. My H, an alcoholic, is incredibly bright and manipulative. I've been in Al-Anon for 3 years trying to recover from my reactions to his disease. And because he has lived around me....he knows how to talk "recovery" terms at me. But he always gives things a subtle twist...and I have to call my sponsor to get my head back on straight. I can't tell you how many times he's used my own recovery against me. If I didn't have my sponsor to hold my hand and help me see where the traps lie in his twists of logic....I'd still be a crazy woman.<P>Your H is using a similar technique on you. <P>Protect yourself and your children. THAT is what is BEST for ALL.<P>I know it hurts and I know you are scared. You can do this. <P>(((hugs))) BR<P>PS. PLEASE call Steve Harley - it may take you a week to get an appointment...he's very in demand, and you really want to talk to him ASAP.<P>And start looking for an attorney, please do this for you and your kids. You don't have to file for divorce, but you need to be sure you and the kids are protected.

<BR>OvrCs,<P>PLEASE, PLEASE, listen to Bramblerose she has said every thing that I would like to but can't express near as eloquently.<P>I followed my H overseas, he said he wasn't making promises, but then when I decided not to come because of his doubts, email from the OW & my OS getting so drunk ending up ER hrs before we were to leave, my H promised he do anything if I come & bring our sons, within a month he was planning on meeting OW in London. My time here has been H@@l, no other words.<P>When you are this unhappy, you can't make friends. It is hard to be around people when they are all talking about their lives, you don't want anyone to know that your H is treating you like this, just in case things work out, so you live in a world that isolated. You don't let people where you come from know how bad it is, you don't want them to worry, they can't do anything, so even though you thought it was best to for your children to be with both parents, it is not.<P> I have hurt one of children unbearable by making the decisions that I did. I thought I knew what was right; I thought having both parents was the best. I WAS WRONG.<P>Please consult Steve & an attorney before you do anything, he can not make you move, if he wants a divorce let him have it but don't let him coerce you into moving, you don't need to be in a duplex. If he wants his freedom so be it, he has to pay the price.<BR>

My gosh... thank you friends. BUT, you're freakin' me out here! Am I in a fog? Ok, I will get offline and call Steve Harley and then make an appointment with an attorney this week. Gosh, I hope he doesn't flip completely out about this... thank you THANK YOU for your insights...<P>I'm not thinking clearly and I'm not sure if he's in a fog of self-absorption or if he's being completely manipulative getting what HE wants knowing that I'll make due as I always have.<P>I'll write later after I call... Thanks.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>I'm not thinking clearly and I'm not sure if he's in a fog of self-absorption or if he's being completely manipulative getting what HE wants knowing that I'll make due as I always have.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know what? For this decision, it really doesn't matter much what your husband's motivation is right now. <P>How do you think you would feel if you lived one wall away from your husband, and he started bringing home some girlfriend or other? If he's that self-absorbed or that self-serving, I don't think he would hesitate to do so.<P>I'm guessing that you're focusing on all the things that could be <I>good</I> about the arrangement, and there <I>are</I> many. But your husband's attitude means that you should take a good hard look all the things that could be <I>bad</I> about the arrangement. He is setting you up for life in hell. Since you're already living in the suburbs of hell, I imagine you can figure out whether that's <I>really</I> where you want to live.<BR>

Fogged? Probably not, at least not a WS fog <P>You are going through the string of emotions we all do.<P>You want desperately to save your marriage, you are afraid of being alone, you fear failure of making it on your own, and you are afraid of your children being hurt - and of course there's that tiny bit that will do anything to keep your H in your life at any cost.<P>Been there, done that - got LOTS of scars to prove it! <P>I'm sorry to scare you, and I hope that *I* am in the wrong. This is just smells really bad though, and I hope for your sake that I need a nose adjustment!<P>Maybe you should suggest to your husband that you get the divorce (or legal separation) NOW, before you leave the state. See what he says...<P>Then come ask us for advice before putting any of your H's crazy ideas into writing <P>If he's willing to do right by you legally, then I guess you could consider moving to be near him.<P>I'm doing exactly the opposite. I am planning to move to VA after my divorce, with the children. I need to be near family and help. My H is willing to let me go, AND is now (for the moment anyway while btwn girlfriends) job hunting down there already...because he wants to be near his kids.<P>He's following US - not the other way around.<P>My H has done alot of really crappy things to me...but he would never suggest (I hope!) that I do what your H is doing....<P>And I thought MY H was the king of selfishness!!!

BR... tell me what kinds of things he's done in terms of trying to prey on your emotions and fears...<P>I don't think you're too far off... I just am having a hard time believing it because I'm holding out hope that he's not a completely self absorbed.<P>Gnome... you're right. The BAD things - it would really suck to have that happen with another woman but it may and then what? Gosh... <P>I think I'm going to talk to an atty this week and try and get in with Steve. My Cslr just tells me to wait it out... which also has merit because usually he says what he wants and I hop to it and make it happen. Now the Sep/D is something that goes against my integrity so I'm not "making it happen" as I have done in the past. So, I feel he's playing on my heartstrings... but I see the way he's treating me now - even snapping and such at me so disrespectfully and now he should be on his best behavior since he's trying to convince me to move next door to him. What will happen then? He'll have NO reason to treat me respectfully and probably the negative flood-gates will open.<P>He's landed a REALLY good job with a good salary... I still don't have anything secure. I HATE BEING IN THIS SITUATION - but that's a little ridiculous to say since NONE of us are happy with the circumstances.<P>I've got to be careful myself not to be too self-absorbed...<P>QUESTION: How should I respond consistently when he accuses me of "doing nothing unless it suits me and that I'll never change." That always makes me cave since I KNOW I have changed and I just TRY HARDER to prove it to him. Does he KNOWINGLY USE that against me - how could he?<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>QUESTION: How should I respond consistently when he accuses me of "doing nothing unless it suits me and that I'll never change." That always makes me cave since I KNOW I have changed and I just TRY HARDER to prove it to him. Does he KNOWINGLY USE that against me - how could he?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you've conditioned your husband to recognize this as an effective manipulative ploy, he might even be using it against you <I>un</I>knowingly.<P>What criteria does your husband think you <I>should</I> use to make your decisions? Do you think he would admit that he thinks "whatever suits <I>him</I>" is the proper criterion? (Note that pretty much anything else he suggests would end up indicting him at least as much as you.)<BR>

Well, I think he thinks he's trying to think of me. He didn't accept the offer in Chicago until after I had the interview in Philly and it didn't seem like a good fit.<P>So, at that time, I had nothing... and it didn't make sense for him to give up a job offer. He asked about the offer he had to DC if that would suit me better. I told him I'm not that excited about moving to Chicago to get dumped. I just do not know!!! Nothing suits me if it includes him leaving me... well, that's the fact. He is leaving me.<P>He's told me that he learns by experiencing things - so maybe this is something he wants to experience - living on his own. I don't know. He's never done it. He lived at his parents until we married.<P>So, the point is that I don't have enough info to make a move and as so many have said - away from my support system. <P>I think I need to be willing to consider it but not coerced into anything. If I'm not willing, I'll just be adversarial. I'm trying to TRUST but realize it's very shakey. His parents say, "Don't give up on him!" And my parents are hoping also... So, I'm back to what is right for both of us CONSIDERING that we're both parents to these children? Maybe he's being selfish but not vindictive.<P>I just need a reality check and you folks are providing me one... I have a tendency to think for the best but there's also the side that I'm to be shrewd as a serpent AND gentle as a dove.<P>THANKS for your thoughts that are definitely giving me the 360 degree view on this thing. I want to have an attitude of willingness but NOT be a doormat. The GOD factor also means a lot to me so I'm waiting on THAT as well.<P><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Ok, going back over this thread...I have some more thoughts here.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What are some natural consequences that result of his behavior? I'm not seeing clearly... I just think of what's best for the kids and think the rest is my "cross to bear."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Consequences...well I can think of alot. Little things like child support, alimony, LAWYER FEES, loss of "image" with his own family, loss of relationship with his children....<P>He's avoiding a long drawn out expensive conflict with you - as long as he can keep you under his control - you are one less wild card in the new life he's working on...<P>Obviously he wants to get set up in his new life without all those little headaches...and when you finally begin to see the light, and begin to fire back at him...he'll have things set up for "damage control".<P>You are only a victim as long as you choose to be. This is going to feel harsh...but we are only martyrs bearing "crosses" when we don't want to take responsiblity for our own choices and lives. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...as this is what got me in trouble last year with him when I suspected as much with the woman he was *friends* with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Where there is smoke - and there's ALOT of smoke here - there's most likely a fire. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am sincerely trying to think of what I can do without being accused of "always thinking of myself"... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And what, exactly, is wrong with thinking of yourself? Especially when he has clearly told you that he is no longer your life partner? He's the one choosing to leave...Did he tell you that it would be better for the you and the kids if he left the marriage? <P>So exactly WHO is he concerned about...hmmm??<P>Let me repeat what YOU said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... but then again, I just got off the airplane and the flight attendant said, "Before assisting anyone else, be sure to put your own oxygen mask on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LISTEN to your own advice!<P>My Al-Anon sponsor (who doesn't know the MB concepts) talks about a checking account balance - in a similar analogy to the MB love bank principles. If you don't keep your own checking account full with your own large deposits...what exactly are you going to have to give away? How about staying emotionally solvent so you can care for your kids during what is going to be a very scary time for them?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I hear what you're saying but I want to do what is RIGHT for all and not just for me. I also do not want to enable my H at the expense of myself and my sanity. I just can't see a win:win at the moment... so maybe that's God saying "Wait."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is what your H doing RIGHT for all?<P>Hello? You are not responsible for ALL anymore. I'm not suggesting that you have a right to fire back in revenge at him, or to do things for vindictive reasons...I'm just pointing out that HE isn't - he's actively doing what is WRONG for all. So why are you so much more worried about his welfare than yours and your children?<P>Sweetie, I hate to throw this on you...but there is no win/win here. Everyone is standing to lose, and your H is simply doing damage control for himself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Unless there is collaboration between us. He doesn't want to work on our relationship... even to the point of saying "no, not now" when I ask him to seek counseling to work out our parenting team approach. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again...WHERE IS HIS CONCERN FOR YOUR KIDS?!?!?!<P>And YOU are the selfish one?? PUHLEEEEEEEZE.<P>If that was truly his motivation....he'd be happy to do so.<P>I agree with Gnome tho, his motivations just don't really matter right now.<P><BR>

Bramble... YOU GO girl! Man, you are right on BUT this situation is pressing some serious buttons in you! I thank you for your advice but now I'm very curious what's "got you goin'" on this? Is it the way I'm reacting or is it in defense of me or is my H just acting too close to home for you?<P>Whatever it is, I'm grateful for the WAKE up call - not only is it cold water but ICE cold and yeah, it feels good!<P>Best points:<BR>* the best defense is a good offense<BR>* I'll say it again - WHO does this move benefit?<BR>* There is no win:win here - everyone stands to lose and your H is doing damage control<BR>* And when you finally begin to "see the light" he'll have his damage control set up.<BR>* It doesn't really matter now what your H's motivation is<BR>* BEST POINT for my reflection: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...but we are only martyrs bearing "crosses" when we don't want to take responsiblity for our own choices and lives. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OKAY, so <B>HELP</B> me construct a wake-up call or as Schnarch calls it the Crucible SO THAT I can honestly AND gently take responsibility for my own choices.<P>It's hard to rip apart the "one flesh" of marriage and not think of ALL anymore. Yes, I know I'm NOT the one doing the ripping, but like a body, when one part is injured, the blood pumps to that part to try and heal it on it's own before external first aid can be applied... WAKE UP GIRL!<P>ps - I've made an appointment with Steve AND atty.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited April 23, 2001).]

heehee, what did I say earlier??<P>Been there, done that - got LOTS of scars to prove it! <P>I wasn't kiddin! I've got so many scars and so much baggage that I'll never sort myself out!<P>Alot of things you are saying definitely strike a cord. And you are a smart lady to recognize good advice from a flawed (me) source. <P>I think I probably have huge abandonment issues with my H - 2 weeks after he moved out last year, I discovered I was pregnant. I had a highrisk pregnancy and 2 very active boys and a brand new house to manage all by myself (only his family for help) while my H was getting on with his new life. And his OW was a nasty woman, who was planning his divorce for him. I have an 8 page email from her to him with the subject "Battle Plan". She included lots of details about how to hide his income from me and stuff like that... <P>I think what really makes me nuts is that you sound just like me during many of the years that I put up with his unacceptable behavior for the sake of "all". <P>Thats exactly what my H used to do. He would realize (because I was honest and shared everything) that I was working on a particular issue, or was particularly anxious about a flaw...and he'd use it to gain advantage over me in an argument. I always ended up feeling like the unreasonable one, or the bad one in the argument. <P>And I can't tell you how many times I placed his needs over my own, for fear of being selfish. And what I was really doing was enabling him, hurting myself and hurting my kids.<P>And I was a great martyr. Everything was his fault and I got to sit helplessly while he did horrible stuff to me, and wasn't he awful?<P>Instead of looking at my responsiblities and stepping up to bat, I did alot of denial, and alot of blaming and a lot of victimhood.<P>I hope I'm completely over reacting. If such is the case, feel free to publically lash me!<P>Anyway, I am so happy to know that you are going to talk to Steve. He can help you come up with a plan that will give you the greatest chance at saving your marriage. I think I spent roughly $7-800 in sessions with him, and it was well worth it.<P>Some of these emotional issues really take time to go through. I'm where I am at today because of 3 years of work.<P>Obviously for you though, you aren't being given alot of time I don't think I would have reacted so strongly except that it seems to be happening pretty quickly for you. If he was wanting to move into a duplex with you in your local town...and filed for divorce...that would be a different thing entirely.<P>You haven't let go of your marriage, but he sure has, for the moment at least. So while your motivation is staying together...his is something else entirely.<P>I hope an atty can give you some ideas of what the legal implications of what your husband is planning.<P>I doubt your H is actively evilly conspiring against you..unless he's lucky like my H and has an evil OW. He just sounds like a self-centered guy that has gotten very good (intentionally or not) at yanking your emotional strings to keep you in the cycle of behavior that makes him the most comfortable.<P>Did you see my thread about my stbx asking me out on a date?<P>It wasn't because he still loves me, or wants our marriage...<P>But he needs his relationship with me. He keeps being drawn back to me over and over....but thats the nature of the alcoholic and the relationship with others. He keeps trying to drag me back into that comfort zone - and I have to fight it tooth and nail. The patterns that we develop with our spouses are so powerful!<P>Anyway...you've taken the first steps by talking to Steve and a lawyer. They can give you the information and advice you need to form a plan. With a plan, then you can look your H in the eye and start "negotiating". <P>And your counselor is right....PRAY for the willingness to see and hear God's will. <P>I hope for your sake that I'm just a psycho chick!

Thanks again... psycho? Nope... just one who's BEEN THERE and definitely DONE that. This is what God calls us to in relationship with each other... it's in our pain that we care for each other and can relate the most emphatically.<P>The cycle you're talking about sounds like the song my H listens to by Meatloaf:<P><I>I want You, I NEED you, But I'm never gonna love you, now don't be sad, 'cuz two outta three ain't bad </I><P>Makes me sick but really feel ill-equipped for what is happening and what I should TANGIBLY DO! I hope Steve can help me devise a plan.<P><B>Now... WHAT do you (or any of you) suggest I do to PREPARE myself to make the most of my first time with BOTH Steve and the attorney? I don't want to carry on blah, blah, blah all victim and everything... how can I get the story straight as unbiased as I can (knowing it won't be fully)?</B><P>GRATEFULLY yours!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once