Hi guys,<P>Figured I probly wouldnt post here anymore. The last post from Sheryl said that I am about to lose it all and that you all see it. <P>Its hard to accept being faced with this, and just lick my wounds and keep plugging away. But here I am again!<P>Things had been pretty mellow Fri an Sat. NO attempts at holding me Friday night, we were pretty quiet w/o anger. Sat night I rolled over and asked him if he would make love to me. First time I reached out for him since the redundant distraction thing. He rolled over and said something like its not making love for him, that he has no love for me. I was feeling pretty emotional, and turned away and started to cry. He pulled me and closer and my crying just intensified. Sobbing and all. Oh Dara, he said. He kissed me, ran his fingers through my hair and held me tighter then ever. I couldnt help but continue to cry. They wernet tears borne from an arguement, just plain hurt. He made love to me. Kissed me the whole time too. Wouldnt let me go after. It felt soo good to be in his arms, to be comforted by him. <P>Yesterday we were talking about working out our finances after I leave, child support etc. I asked him if he would help me go through the garage to sort some stuff out. I had also just found out that my agency has a new location in San Antonio, so I wont have to search for a job, just transfer. Then his cell phone rang. It was her. His voice was soft, he just said yes and no a couple of times. Paused when he hung up when he said goodby, must be because he probly says I love you to her. His goodbye seemed akward, yet soft and tender.<P>I asked if it was her,he said yes. I usually work on Sundays at three, and she called at 3:15. I sat down and was quiet for a bit. He tried to break the ice by asking to go work on the garage. No. I walked to the bedroom and layed down and cried. Why does a phone call hurt so bad? Because of the tenderness in his voice. Because she knew when to call, so they must talk quite a bit. Plan on when I am not home. He has built much more with her than I thought. I know this. <P>He came to our bed and held me as I lay crying. Kissed me, all those things he did the night before. We made love again. He keeps hurting me, and I hate that. Yet he comes and comforts me and it feels so good. I asked why does it bother him to see me cry? Because I care about you, and I dont want to see you hurting. But you are the one hurting me!!! YOu know I love you, and you keep reminding me how much you dont want me. But you dont like it wqhen it hurts me. Theres nothing else to understand Dara, I care about your feelings thats ALL.<P><BR>How does she have the nerve to call him like that? I told H later on that what he is doing hurts me and the kids. That none of us will ever recover fully from his rejection. And ya know what H? There is a man out there. A man hurting really bad just like me. I dont know if he knows what you are doing with his wife, but even if he doesnnt know he senses that his wife isnt there for him anymore. Doesnt love him. And you H are the cause of his pain. There are some children out there that will hurt for the rest of their lives because they're familyisnt together anymore. And you H, had everything to do with it. I feel really sorry for that man, because I am sure he is not the mnster she has painted him out to be. I am sure he loves her because he is still married to her. And he is hurting because he knows he is losing her. And you H have made it that much easier for her to leave him. Even if you havent had sex with her, instead of thinking of her H she thinks of you. You have "enabled" her to leave him, just as she has enabled you to leave me. But, ya know what? <P>She is still a married woman. And you two are still having an affair. There is nothing so "special" about what you two have. If she can leave her H of many years for you, what makes you think you are any better than him? You already know that she doesnt value the relationship she vowed to keep. She doesnt value you either. She will do the same to you. You will never have all those qualities that you cherish again. Purity, honesty, innocence. Look how you two started! Lying, deceit, sneaking, and you know what H? She still goes home to her H and sleeps with him, has sex with him. And you think what you have with her is so "special."<P>I love you H, but will not take her leftovers. You yourself told me that maybe you just needed some time, but now I see that you ARE pursuing a relationship with her. You have no values at all, lost everything that you once lived for. And once you have turned that corner with her, I will never want you again.<P>And here we are, leaving in two months, and you are still talking to her and going behind my back. <P>I then left to get dinner, and when I came back he had his head in the pillow and was still in bed. I asked whats wrong? Told him I got him a 12 pack and some creamer for the AM. He said what he needed was a bottle of 150 proof liquor, some love songs and a couple of razor blades. Did he not realize the damage he is inflicting in her family? Did I really have to point it out to him?<P><BR>Afriend of mine at work who I hadnt seen in awhile I saw Sat and told him. He is married now, and has been through a messy D a long time ago. He said that he has never known a man to change his mind once he has said he will do something. That what my H has said. Once he said it he couldnt go back. It was funny, how understanding he was. He didnt give me hope about my marraige, but gave me ALOT of advice I hadnt thought about. Said that H could not join the military with alot of debt (child support and a mortgage for him will be 2,200/month) and that I am entitled to half of his retirement. That I can get alimony even though he is not working. That even though we just bought this house, and dont have much equity, I can have him buy out my share. I am NOT a greedy vengefull person, guys. But he gave me alot to think about. He is even going to help[ me find out who this woman is. Told me its really sad that after a divorce, men move on that much faster. They have the time to heal right away. then they have hardly any responsibility, and since things move that much quicker for them they get into relationships faster. Woman, he said, have to focus so much on getting the kids through this that they forget themselves. Cant move on to another relationship when they heal because they are faced with the prob of the kids.Finding someone who will love their kids too. And finding someone who wont leave their kids again, just like dad did. It was really nice to talk to someone who understood how I feel in this w/o giving me hope about my marraige. Cause honestly guys I dont see too much hope here.<P>Why does it bother him to see me hurting and crying?<P>I told H that I kinda thought he was dealing with too much guilt thats why he feels bad when I am hurting and why he hasnt pursued the divorce papers. Trying to make me the bad guy.<P>Dara<P>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited April 23, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited April 23, 2001).]

OH Dara!!!!<P>Please, please don't go because of what I said!!!<P>Well... I guess the time has come for me to realize that I have overstayed my usefulness a bit (gee whiz, I get so boggled up and try to help, but we all know where that's gotten me lately!).<P>Dara, you have HOPE. I've said that a kazillion times... I see it!!!<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Dara... man, your situation sounds so bad. I'm sorry. I hope that somewhere and somehow you can find inner stability to keep your head afloat... gosh, your H is really confused and hurting everyone in his path. Sorry for you and your kids... I don't have much advice as I'm not in a place to give any right now... just wanting you to know I'm thinking of and praying for you.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Dara,<P>There is so much that I want to say, but right now I don't have the time. I will respond as soon as I can. Hang in there girl and remember to take care of YOURSELF. <P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>Figured I probly wouldnt post here anymore. The last post from Sheryl said that I am about to lose it all and that you all see it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There's some serious misunderstanding here (and don't go blaming yourself, Sheryl). Dara, what we see is that you are sabotaging yourself. You aren't going to lose it all because you are in an unsalvageable situation; you are going to lose it all because you are fixed upon a path that amounts to throwing it all away.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I asked why does it bother him to see me cry? Because I care about you, and I dont want to see you hurting. But you are the one hurting me!!! YOu know I love you, and you keep reminding me how much you dont want me. But you dont like it wqhen it hurts me. Theres nothing else to understand Dara, I care about your feelings thats ALL.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. The real question here, Dara, is whether your husband refuses to <I>admit</I> (to you and/or himself) that he loves you, or whether he really doesn't understand what love is.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I then left to get dinner, and when I came back he had his head in the pillow and was still in bed. I asked whats wrong? Told him I got him a 12 pack and some creamer for the AM. He said what he needed was a bottle of 150 proof liquor, some love songs and a couple of razor blades. Did he not realize the damage he is inflicting in her family? Did I really have to point it out to him?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, well. It's a funny sort of Plan A, but maybe you <I>did</I> have to "point it out" to him. Mind you, you have no clue why your husband was <I>really</I> moping, any more than you had any real knowledge of what might be going on with the OW's family. Maybe you got through to your husband a little bit, or maybe he was feeling sorry for himself over having to put up with such a tirade from someone who "just doesn't understand" him. Maybe both.<P>On the whole, your message was something your husband needed to hear. But only time will tell whether he was in any position to receive it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>A friend of mine at work who I hadnt seen in awhile I saw Sat and told him. He is married now, and has been through a messy D a long time ago. He said that he has never known a man to change his mind once he has said he will do something. That what my H has said. Once he said it he couldnt go back. It was funny, how understanding he was. Told me its really sad that after a divorce, men move on that much faster. They have the time to heal right away. then they have hardly any responsibility, and since things move that much quicker for them they get into relationships faster.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Huh. I guess all I can really say is that this guy's experience must be pretty limited. His insights into the male psyche don't have the universality he thinks.<BR>

<BR>Sheryl, dear Sheryl,<P>I did NOT mean you have run me off!!!<P>Dont go!!<P>I respect your opinion Sheryl, and when you said that it made me feel as a failure. Your frankness scared me a little. It was needed, no doubt though. I t just scares me to think that I am about to lose it all when I am trying so hard to get through this. Please do stay, if only for me.<P>OvrC's,<P>Thank you!! This situation IS so hard let me tell ya. I know all of us are going through alot, this is why we are here. To look for answers, and to share the answers that we have learned the hard way. As my friend at work told me: As much as we all like to believe that the person we marry is "the one, the only one", it is not true. Most of us will meet 2-3 people in our lifetimes that we will love, maybe want to commit to. He reminded me that its NOT over for me. I will love agin. That my H is not unique. We all THINK we are "special, different" than all the others when we get married. I remember being in the courthouse looking around at all the other couples waiting for their license, and thinking to myself that I am sooo lucky. I have something different. But they all thought the same too!! <BR>My H would never cheat on, or leave me. That line of thought got me into a lot of trouble. I took him for granted, even screwed around on him, and he still wanted me with all his heart.<P>Now, I see him as every other man. No different. Not unique. Not special. I told him that last night. That he is just like everyone else out there, and so is she.<P>this helps a little. I dont want to live alone!! I am young, from what others say beautiful too. I have a heart that I want to give someone. I want someones heart to take care of.<P>Lost Husband,<P>I anticipate what you have to say being that you are in almost the same mess I am in. Hell! I anticipate what everyone here has to say to tell you the truth. But you seem to have something on your mind you want to share. I look forward to hearing from you soon.<P>Dara<P>PS. Sheryl please stay, dont give up on us!

Hi Dara,<P>I'm still here... I'm *always* here... it's just that lately (as you know) I've had a bit of a rough go... I honestly do want to help SO MUCH and it seems that my fervor gets in the way. In your situation, it's going SO FAST and I don't want you to be in the position of regret... that's all.<P>I'm here, I'm gonna stay here, at least for now. <P>When I actually do go, it will be quietly, since my attempts at leaving in the past, have been loud and then back again with my tail between my legs! <P>Keep up the good fight, Dara.<P>You can do this!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Dara,<P> Your life sounds like mine did last year and the year before. I wish mine had turned out differently sometimes but it didn't and mine and my kids lives have moved on quite well. I agree with what your friend said. I feel that it is hard for a man to go back on what he said especially if he knows he is in the wrong. This fog they get in, these WS's is just incredible. It is almost like a total insanity. It's like a small child loving his new toy until the toy gets old. You can't change this, and it's up to you to do what you feel is right for you and the kids right now. He is playing the hero comforting you in your time of need but yet he is still being selfish and thinking of only him. I have been in your shoes and have made love to my EX because I needed his comfort after the I found out about OW1.<BR>After I found out about OW2 I know longer played his game and I booted him out the door. Somebody once said once a cheater always a cheater I didn't believe them but know I don't know. <BR>He is now married to OW2, living in what was our house with her and her kids while me and my kids live in a rented house. I have to work three jobs to support us but I feel good about myself again. I know longer feel like the victim, and in away that is how your H is making you feel. If I were you I would take charge of your own destiny and leave him in the dust to choke on his. Life has alot to offer, you have alot to offer don't let him get you down. There is life after divorce. It's not easy it's really hell the first few months but it does get better. <P>Sorry for the ranting but I just get so tired of all the selfish morons we have all given our lives to.<P>Jill

Another thing I thought of..that my friend had pointed out to me.<P>I think the reason why he is not pursuing the divorce is due to his guilt..<P>He knows that eventually through time I will file when I finally realize there is no hope.<P>He just does not want to be the "bad guy" here. He gets to keep his financial aid that nuch longer, and gets better pay in the military.<P>I asked him if this was his intent last night to just wait until I file because you dont want to lose your funding and feel like the bad guy. No answer which says ALOT.<P>I also asked if she loves him, and his response was if I ever thought before I spoke. Enough said, question answered.<P>Gnome, thanks for responding.<BR>He WAS feeling guilty over what I told him, I saw it in his eyes. Said that I wanted to take "everything" from him incuding his peace of mind. If I cant have him I will be sure to destroy him. Helloooo? He is doing this himself. Just cant face the guilt. He has candy coated everything. Do you really think I am such a screw uo Gnome? I am trying as hard as I can here. Faced everyday with this pain as you were too. We live together, so many times my errors made I had no time to consider my options as maybe you all do. I live with him. My life has been full of mistakes and I dont claim to have the knowledge/wisdom that you all have. But I am trying dammit. I love him. And I dont want to hurt him or lose him. That is what it boils down to. So condemn me!! I dont know much, this is why I am here. Yes, I am personalizing the mistakes I make that you all point out. I dont want to fail at this, and sometimes when I read the responses here I feel like a complete screw-up.<P>So all I can say is please keep it coming. If I cant "save" this marraige than I want to learn my listakes, and grow from them. And to love again.<P>Dara

Jilly,<P>Playing the "Hero". I see your point. I am moving on, I am moving to TX from WA state in two months. Funny thing is is that no one else here agrees with my decision. That is our home state (military got us here), and his mother has offered me a nice home. I will have the support of my family there. If I wait here to plan A longer, then I may lose that oppurtunity to have a rent free home.<P>His mom supports me. I need that. Staying herre I run the risk of him moving out and finding a sitter while I work. I have 3 kids.<P>I do hope he will miss us and want to move back. He is a good dad. But if he doesnt, it will help me to move on with my life. I cant cont to live with him as a "partner" to raise the kids together while he finished school. I love him and have more respect for myself than that.<P>Dara

Dara,<P>First off I've got a good idea. Let's get your husband and my wife together. They both just like to f&^k people both physically and emotionally. I think that they would make a good match.<P>That was a little attempt at humor, very little.<P>You are right our situations are so much alike. That's why I a very glad that you are here and I hope that you don't go away. Thank you for all of the advice you have given me. I wish that I had the cure all that could ease your pain, but that is a pain that you will have to ease yourself.<P>Your husband, like my wife, is a very cruel person. I have vowed to myself that the next time my wife tells me that I'm just a f&^k, that it will be the last time. That's a part of the relationship that I don't want to let go of and I'm sure that you don't either. I thing your husband & my wife need a dose of reallity. How do we give that to them? Again, I don't know. I'm searching for ways to give my wife reallity.<P>I don't know if either of us will be able to salvage any part of marriage. I do know that what I have been doing is not working and it's time for me to change stratigies. I am going to work on "tough love". I have quit my crying around her and I'm doing more things alone. I hate it at times but it's for the best. I will be there for her if she needs something but I will make her work for it a little. Just like the sex issue we've discussed. When she's ready to go I'm going to play a little hard to get. Not too hard, just enough for it to seem like a small challenge.<P>"Why does it bother him to see mee hurting and crying?" I suspect that he does feel extremely guilty, even if he won't admit it. Plus, right now, he has his cake and he is eating it to. He is a cruel person and he needs some help and space. Is he living in reallity?<P>You have probably read all the same books I have and I suspect you know some different things to try. Point being, if what you are trying now is not working, you need to try something else.<P>One last thing, I don't see much hope for either of our marriages. I know that if I quit trying things that there will be no chance at all. Therefore, I go on fighting the good fight. There will be a point at which I will admit defeat, but I'm not ready yet. Plus, some of the things that I am learning are making me a better person. I know that I can love again, even if I don't want too now. I know that I have tried everything for my family and later in life I will find peace in that. No matter what my wife says, I know that I am a good person - two weeks ago I didn't believe that.<P>I don't even know you and I know that you are a good person. I know that you can make it through this no matter what the outcome. Please know that you have been a big help to me.<P>Your in my thoughts and prayers.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

"I dont even know you yet I know you are a good person."<P>Go on Lost Husband, I need the stroking!! Thank you.<P>A couple of points though..<P>Strategy...NO!!<P>I find myself looking for a new one too. But that is manipulative dont ya think? Hers what I tried: begging, pleading, guilt, using the kids, loving, humbling myself, telling his mom who is Christian, believing God would fix this, moping, depression (that came easy w/o trying), being a "better person", etc.<P>Last night I told him that I am NOT an unlovable person. I dont want to lose him, and I will not play the martyr and live a life of celibacy because I lost him. His response?You are a VERY lovable person. Its me Dara.<P>A couple of postings ago I realized something I had never realized before. Something H has told me all along, yet it took some strangers here to point it out to me for me to believe it. I have been a controlling manipulative person. At that moment I understood "plan A" a bit better. You are not "selling yourself" to your spouse. What it does is give you the peace of mind to know that you tried your damndest. And if it did not work out, you are left with no regrets and guilt. And you become a better person.<P>I CANNOT believe that I could be helping you in this Lost Husband. I really feel so inadeqaute (sp) in my attempts to save my marraige. But maybe, if you dont mind, we can lean on each other here and give each the other genders take on this.<P>Your wife is too stubborn to let you know that you can make her feel good and satisfy her. My H is the same. Being intimate with him now, I feel like a teenager doing it for the first time. I notice EVERY touch, every caress. As I am sure you do too.<P>When its over, do you think of how good you feel after, or do you really sit there and speculate on what it meant to her. <P>Just take things as they come, and enjoy the moment. It makes YOU feel good, so let it be at that. If it is just A f*** to her, than SHE is the one losing, not you. This is what plan A does. Makes you grow stronger, and accept that you have given your all to your spouse. If that wasnt enough, than it is your gain, not your loss. Makes it easier to let go.<P>The only books I have read is Tough Love, REbuilding after your Realtionship ends, and mostly the Bible.<P>Bill my bible is what is on my desk right now, not the others. God promises comfort and peace. He says that if an unbelieving spouse wishes to depart, than let them. Next line: God wants us to live in peace.<P>This means, that God knows the unpeacefullness or agony we face with trying to hold on to an unbelieving spouse.<P>Please, dont move on to your next stragtegy Bill. Love her with everything you have now. Without a plan or scheme.<P>If it dosnt work, then you will know you tried your damndest. And you will have peace. You cant control her.<P>Keep in touch,<BR>Dara

Dara,<BR> I agree with your move back to Texas. Family is so important not only to you but to the kids to. It will be hard but it sounds to me like you have alot of support there to back you up. You have to do what is best for you and not what everyone thinks.<P>Jill

Thank you Dara, I needed that. You brought tears to my eyes. I do love her every minute of every day and she knows that. But is that security driving her away? Knowing that she can have me at any time. By giving you female point of view you have helped me. You and others have lifted me up during some real dark times and saved me from making some big love busting mistakes. It's so easy to get wrapped up in this mess and not be able to see the obvious.<P>Thank you for your support. I hope that we can rely on each other for a tiny bit of understanging of the opposite sex. <P>I hope that through all this pain, at least one time today you can smile and laugh with a good memory of days gone be.<P>Again, thank you.<P>Love, Bill<P>P.S. How old are your kids and how are they doing?<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Bill,<P>11yo girl, 8 yo gorl and 4you son.<P>Oldest wants to "fix things." Tries to point out that we love each other. ("but I dont get it, the other day you kissed mom?") When I heard her tell him that I wanted to say I dont get it either sweetie. Middle D is mad. Wants to beat OW up. Glares at H. Son is too young to understand really. <P>I have candy coated leaving for them. Told them that even thoughits hard, there will be alot of good thingd too. Promised them a stop at Disneyland on the way. We will live only a mile away from the stables I boarded my horse at as a kid, and I told them that I will got them a horse. I've given them the positve to dwell on.<P>Bill, dont play hard to get with her. If she wants you in any fashion, give your all.<P>Its not all games as my H tells me. He saw me regress and drink a glass of wine the other night. Had the nerve to say, well God did not work for you to get me back, what next?<P>I feel consumed with this. But I know that there has got to be more to me than him. I love him and would love to have my marraige back, but I need to move on and work on myself. Because my self esteem is non-existant right now.<P>Bill, thanks for the encouragement. Keep in touch.<P>Dara

I have three girls (11,9,&6). Like you it's all candy coated. Since we are still living together I don't think any of them really understand. The oldest is angry, the middle wants to fix things (she's like her dad), and our youngest doesn't think about it much. <P>If there is a possitive through all the pain it is the children. If we were to have given up long ago we may have missed having one of our angels. I am truly blessed.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Bill, <P>How long ago did she tell you?<P>OM in the picture?<P>Has she stated who will get the little ones?<P>What are her reasons?<P>Dara

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>Bill, <P>How long ago did she tell you?<P>OM in the picture?<P>Has she stated who will get the little ones?<P>What are her reasons?<P>Dara</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She told me two months ago. She is trying to find herself and she can't see being happy with me ever. She is not in-love with me and doesn't know if she is capable of loving. For the first half of our 12 year marriage I was very controlling. She filed for divorce at year 5. We split for 6 months and then got back together. There is no other people and I am quite sure of that. We plan on 50/50 joint legal and physical custody (week with mom/week with dad). She plans to move out at the End of May.<P>Bill<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LostHusband:<BR><B> She told me two months ago. She is trying to find herself and she can't see being happy with me ever. She is not in-love with me and doesn't know if she is capable of loving. For the first half of our 12 year marriage I was very controlling. She filed for divorce at year 5. We split for 6 months and then got back together. There is no other people and I am quite sure of that. We plan on 50/50 joint legal and physical custody (week with mom/week with dad). She plans to move out at the End of May.<P>Bill<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Read "another sad story", my first post. Tells alot of my history.<P>I still dont get the I Ilove you but am not in love with you" speech.<P>Is there some supreme power telling them to all say the same things??<P>Dara<P>

Dara,<P>I'll read that post tomorrow a.m. <P>If prostitution is the oldest profession than I think that "I love you but I'm not in love with you" is the oldest speech. They say it so well. What really pisses me off about my situation is that there is no real reason. There's no drugs, alcohol, abuse, or affairs. There is nothing that can't be fixed. Our girls deserve a happy two parent home. <P>What really amazes me about this board is how my wife (WS) acts so much like those who have had affairs. But after a conversation that we had last week I truly believe in my heart that has never been another and of course I (MR MORALITY) have never been unfaithful.<P>I've got to sign off for the day so hope to visit with you tomorrow. Have a good evening and don't forget to smile, even if only for a moment. It will make you feel better.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-