I'm going to use Mike's courage as an example, and I'm going to share myself with you'all. As you know, telling people what is going on with me has not EVER been my forte--I have to keep telling myself that it is good to let others know, because it gives you an opportunity to help me. Anyway, here goes...<P>First, I'll just say that I'm not exactly sure where I belong on this forum anymore. I'm not really "divorcing/divorced", and the folks "in recovery" recovering from an affair don't know me that well, and "emotional needs" sort of assumes you have a marriage to work with, so it's wierd! Meanwhile, lots of my friends are here, so I'm posting here!<P>Well, ahem...life is very, very difficult for me right now. To be honest, in many ways I feel worse now than I did when we were separated and divorcing, because as painful as it was then, at least I thought I knew what was going to happen--at least I knew that he hated me and loved her. It's strange, but it's a little bit liberating when you realize that your life is UP TO YOU NOW! And although it was scary and kind of lonely, it was also kind of exciting. I have to admit that I also really had the freedom to grow and become the kind of person I wanted to be and do the kinds of things that I enjoy, and that was fun.<P>Anyway, looking back now, I'm not sure that I would have reconciled back in February if I had known then what I know now. This is so much harder than I thought it would be. I've learned that there are just as many myths about reconciling as there are about affairs, and the fog is just as thick as any affair fog. I've learned things that he has said "in honesty" that I feel like no wife should EVER have to hear, and I sorta feel like they will haunt me for years. Before we started, I felt strong and solid personally, and I felt committed to making it work out; I had a VERY strong belief in marriage and a VERY solid faith in God. Now, in a way, I just feel like I don't possibly see how we can work it out. But at the same time, in perhaps the same intensity, I feel like I just CAN NOT give up because I made a vow before God.<P>In some ways, I feel like trying again like this is killing me--the "me" that I rediscovered this past year when I HAD to rediscover myself. In a very painful, awful talk we had just recently, my H said that he thought I was VERY negative and EXTREMELY, EXCESSIVELY judgemental, and I thought to myself, "That does not sound like me. I'm not sure, but I don't think most people would say those are two of my characteristics. Why does it seem that way to him? Am I not myself anymore?" I remember starting to find joy in the small things in life, like grape juice or playing in the snow, but now I mostly feel lonely, sad and hurt. MY GOD!! I can not believe that THIS is God's idea of what marriage should be like--so what in the world am I supposed to do?<P>In our painful, awful discussion, my H told me that he wishes I had "passion" for him again, like I used to eleven years ago (the first time he had an affair). WELL DUH! I wish I did too! I could! But how in the heck am I supposed to trust him again with ALL of my heart when I find out he's been stepping out on me for our whole marriage? How in the heck am I supposed to chase after him to give him ego-support when I'm back to crying all night? I HATE THAT!! I feel like I a sponge that is dying to soak up some water, but he won't water me--and now that the sponge is getting hard and kind of crusty, he wonders why!<P>So, I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not doing real well. I feel like I've lost my direction and I don't know WHAT in the world God is trying to teach me by this. How about some hugs and words of encouragement?<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Hang in there CJ...<P>You knew this wouldn't be easy. But nothing worthwhile ever is. <P>Don't give up. <P>I wish I had the words right now, but I don't.<P><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

<B>CALL STEVE HARLEY OR JENNIFER CHALMERS(sp?)!! DO THIS RIGHT NOW!! THEY HAVE THE SKILLS IN WHICH TO HELP YOU!!</B><P>Much love,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

<B>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</B><P>I'm so sorry you are feeling this way. I wish I knew what to say to help, but I don't (at least not right now).<P>I do however know somewhat how you feel. When we tried to reconcile, I felt that I had to give up part of me again that I had just rediscovered. I wasn't so happy then either, and my X just couldn't understand that I needed him to take the lead in restoration for a while, and "Plan A" me a little bit. He just resented that I couldn't be the same "happy go lucky" person I had been before all this started.<P>I wish I could tell you that we got through it, but I can't. I don't know what to tell you, because I never got the chance to see how it would work, or if it would, before he bailed out again.<P>Just know that we all love you and we care. <BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>Big Hugs!!<BR>Dawnetta

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>How wierd, but I was thinking about you specifically this morning and how you were doing. I'm sorry to hear that you aren't doing well. You have been such a great source of advise and support for me. I am at a loss with advise, but know that I feel for you and your plight.<P>Here at MB I have the opportunity to hear of the many different stories and the many different paths that are taken throughout this ordeal. None of the paths have easy solutions and none are easy to travel. That is the only certainty.<P>I'll say one thing in regard to your husband saying that you are extremely judgemental and negative. From the kindness, support, advise, and just general uplifting you have shown me here, personally I think he is way off!!!<P>Love to you, CJ<BR>We are here for you!<BR>Petrie

((((CJ))))<P>I can't speak for God in your situation. I can share with you my experience though....<P>Last December my H said to me the words that I had waited for over a year to hear: "I want you, I want our marriage, I'll do whatever it takes, please keep our counseling appointment with Steve Harley..."<P>During that time, I heard so many awful things. You are right, there are things we shouldn't have to hear. I heard about how "magnificent" the OW was, I heard how she folded his laundry better than I did <fume>, and how I was completely uninteresting, worthless, and incapable of being the kind of wife he wanted. <P>I thought I had cried buckets during his affair. Well, these were even bigger buckets. <P>But CJ, I struggled to do my best to hold up my end of the bargain. I tried to fill his ENs and avoid LBs. I tried to listen and understand. I did everything but stand on my head....<P>And finally, I learned...that there was no marriage here to save. I finally gained acceptance that my H was who he was, and not who I wanted him to be. And that marriage takes 2....and that my H wasn't interested, contrary to his protests.<P>3 very painful months of "recovery" were God's gift to me. I was finally able to let go and find some peace and acceptance. I was given a chance to save my marriage, and do everything in my power. And it wasn't enough.<P>I don't know where I would be emotionally if it wasn't for those 3 months. I doubt I would be accepting AT ALL. I would probably still be on the roller coaster of hurt, anger and disbelief.<P>Painful as they were, I consider those months as God's gift to me. He let me say good-bye to my marriage.<P>I'm not suggesting that this is the end of your marriage...I just know the lessons God wanted me to learn. <P>God has his reasons for you too, and I'm sure in time, you'll know.<P>(((hugs))) hang in there.<P><P>------------------<BR>--BR<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hey CJ:<P>I can totally relate to feeling like you've given up yourself when in the marriage. I felt like that too during and after the last reconciliation attempt. What do we do that? Are we afraid that they just won't like us for who we are?<P>Something to consider - maybe your husband is projecting on you what he feels about himself. After all, the WS becomes an expert at the blame game. Another point to consider - who in your life has ever hurt you like this? To me, the only thing that could hurt me worse than my WS would be the death of one of my boys.

Faithful Wife,<P>I have never posted to you and don't know your whole story but your honesty touched me. I ask myself a lot of the same things you are asking.<P>I think that Living with Memories might be onto something. It reminded me of a saying on my bathroom wallpaper: <P>We see things not as they are, but as we are.<P>My STBX is very much like that. Just a few months ago when a friend of mine was involved in an affair he said what a s*&t she was and that her H should be told so that he could dump her. Well, he had an affair himself and now 5 years later is back with her an he hasn't even filed for D yet!! HELLO who is the s*&t now? <P>I agree that the things your H is putting on you are probably things he dislikes about himself.<P>Please understand that I know little of your story and if I am wrong accept my apologies!<P>

Whoa, all of a sudden I remembered, ahem, a little late, actually, before i read this post!<BR>Happy Birthday, April 20th OK, MB fans, she needs some birthday cards! <P>Secondly, all of a sudden this morning, i wondered where you had been. OK, you are on a very down roller coaster. our thoughts are with you, and remember, the reason you agreed to reconcile is because you did love your H, and now, you are covered with foggy bark, he has thrown up all over you with the dreams of immaturity. maturity recognizes that the past can't always be recreated, but the future holds alot of potential with alot of work.<P>I have to agree with Bill, call in the BIG GUNS, the Harleys, and get you a real plan, as good as our indiviudal plans are, this is for the experts.<P>hugs to you<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>

{{{{{CJ}}}}}<P>A late happy birthday to you as well.<P>I had wondered lately how you were, but I've been really busy and never followed up.<P>I don't know that I've been exactly where you are, but I can certainly relate to parts of it. When I found out about my wife's A, I felt that she had stolen from me all the good memories of our life together. Then I learned that she had also had two other improper relationships, although not really full fledged affairs. Although we were still together, I mourned the "loss" of my marriage just like a death.<P>I think I've described to you how I began to work on things again a couple of months ago after having decided to give up. Before that I had more peace. If she was cheating again I didn't care--it would be more excuse to leave. But working on things again and opening up to her emotionally again was hard and painful. It still is sometimes.<P>If you think about Harley's three states of marriage, withdrawal is easier and less emotionally risky than the conflict state which you pass through before getting to intimacy. In my case I find all my regrets about our relationship and all the things I don't respect about her coming to the forefront.<P>As I say, it's been really busy. For a while we had more quality time together. One of my big ENs is conversation, and we had some good talks. Several times afterward I found myself feeling inexplicably good. My conclusion is that <B>if</B> you can ever get to the point that your H is consistently meeting your ENs it will do something for you that will overcome the effects of all the ways he has screwed up. You kind of have to take that on faith until it happens, though.<P>I tend to agree with the others who suggest a call to one of the Harleys. They may be able to come up with a better plan for getting those ENs met, and give you hope that it will do what I suggest it will for you.<P>Hang in there! I wish I had some better suggestions for you. I will be sure to say a prayer and keep thinking about this.<P>Steve

C.J.<P>I know that you are working to save your marriage..but<BR>are you still working on you? Are you still being you,<BR>doing the things that you like to do? or are you always<BR>compromising to do what he want's to do..not filling your<BR>own cup of emotional needs that he can't fill, doing things with friends even once a week, or every other week? Are you still going out and doing things alone? because we<BR>do have needs that the other person can't fill..that only we can tend to..we can't totally depend upon one person to fill<BR>our every need...it's impossible..Are you still spending time with God? And putting HIM first? or are you putting your husband before God in your life and in essence making him a god in your life? <P>There has to be a balance in our lives..we need our friends..and family..and God..and we need to find that<BR>balance on what need each of them can fill..and allow them<BR>to fill those needs..<P>Maybe you need to get out and just go have some fun w/ some<BR>girl friends..and continue living your own life..and give yourself and your husband a chance to miss each other during the day..(not concentrating so much on what they are doing..who they are with..and so forth) but just concentrate<BR>on having the best possible day you can..and enjoy the time<BR>you have with them when your with them...<BR>

(((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))<P>I'm sorry to hear how things are going for you. <P>When I was 21, 7 years ago, my now ex and I split up for a year. When we split up, I thought it was because we had differences and were young and inexperienced at this relationship stuff. The only way we knew how to communicate was passionately and physically, not verbally. I later found out there was another woman involved. I believe she was around before he left, he won't admit it. I took it hard, plus she was a bit older than us both and I was intimidated by her quite a bit.<P>Anyhow, I never once believed we'd make it back to each other. After a year I gave up completely all hope. (I hung on a lot longer that first time to hope). 3 months later, he came begging to come back. He had no place to turn, his family disowned him, I felt like last place. But for the sake of my kids, I did it. We had a seperate sleeping arrangement and it was to be temporary and he was to start counseling for HIM.<P>Well a few months later, we were in counseling together, and a few months after that, on our way to recovery. I also, found things out in the name of honesty. I'm sorry but I found out things, that were better left unsaid. It took me years to get over them.<P>But before I knew that would be the case, the first year was very painful. Worse than the initial seperation. I was insecure, frightened and second guessed myself all the time, and I didn't trust him. He hung in there.<P>Another 16 months later, we were "ok". I always carried mistrust for him. I never fully felt safe again and we were never the same again, but we made it. <P>We made it for another 6 years til it happened again. He got stressed and replied with an affair instead of talking to me. I held on to hope of his return for only a month this time. For the extreme, I feel now that was giving up too soon, but he left on xmas and was severely abusive to me that time.<P>Anyway, looking back, I do remember the pain of recovery. It was awful. Worse than discovery (i didn't know of this place or those words back then), but it wasn't easy. And I think I had to do most of the hard work and forgiveness and he just had to exist. Sure in reality he tried, thats just how I felt.<P>You can get thru this CJ, and you can make it to recovery. The thing is, if YOU decide you don't want to, you have that right too.<P>I just want to say hang in there, and don't judge it too quickly. Maybe you could talk to Lor on the board, she has been thru this. She is over on recovery.<P>Also, you will make new friends over there who can support you and give you advice that many of us dont' have the knowledge in and it may help you save your marriage. <P>But take it slow. One day at a time. One hour at a time if you have to (i had to on bad days) and just like getting over your h, recovery works the same way. Sooner or later, it gets easier and the hard parts are farther between.<P>But you have to do a lot of work. You have to want it and not give up or doubt it, and you can save the marriage. No matter what happens with it, we will all support you, but I would like to send you some strength to hang in there. <P>((((((((cj)))))))))))<BR>Dana<BR>

(((((CJ)))))<P>You've brought so much pleasure to us with all your *silly* jokes and things... very much needed in the world of infidelity...<P>And now you are here hurting -- I am so sorry! <P>I have no words of wisdom... and I'm sorry about that... but what I do have is a respect for you, and some kind thoughts and prayers coming your way...<P>A belated Happy Birthday too!! <BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Dear CJ, <P>You are an important person here at MB. No matter which site you post to you will be appreciated for your wit and wisdom. <P>We all have private sides to our lives and posting here has brought out a lot more than we share with the rest of the world. <P>You have brought up some honest and interesting feelings here about your current status. Sounds like you don't want to quite call it a recovery yet. I understand. <P>I am at a similar crossroad just a bit behind you. Fear of losing my current freedom, having to live with that fog attitude that is not completely gone yet, knowing there could be the slipping back to old ways, not being able to guarantee myself or anyone else that we will make it and having to be the example instead of both sharing the recovery load equally is hard. <P>I believe your fear and mine along with the others is normal. This whole A thing has taught us not to be too quick to jump to conclusions. To weigh in more on the cautious side is where we feel safe. To have to give that piece of safety up makes us feel vulnerable. <P>I am afraid H will come back with bad habits. I asked him and he says he has not picked up any bad habits. Like he would confess that? Hm.... Anyway, they do come back different. Dont they?<P>I don't have much to offer in the way of advice but I do want to let you know that you are much respected and cared for here by us. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P>"..be cautious as serpents yet innocent as doves"<P>

((((((((((((((((((((Sister))))))))))))))))))))<P>I am so sorry to read your post. I grieve that life is so tough right now. I also support the idea of some real counseling. It's probably time to call in the heavy artillery.<P>I am grateful for all the wisdom, encouragement, and chuckles you have given us. You deserve a lot of support and I hope that you feel that here.<P>((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))<P>Jane-Elise

Hang in there CJ. <P>All the help you gave to me is now coming back to you 100X. Please try to stay the course. <P>You are in my thoughts and prayers. <P>Tex.

((((((((((CJ))))))))))<P>An e-mail is on it's way to you!<P>Ragamuffin

Well, first I want to thank everyone who wrote back with a hug or an encouraging word. You can not imagine how much it means to me to have friends "out there" who understand how I feel. It's a nutty thing, but one of my biggest struggles is constantly doubting myself and being told (by guess who!) that "no one thinks like you...no one could ever understand you...you are illogical, unreasonable, and the way you think is not normal." BULL!! I know for a fact, because I have all of you, that there ARE other people who think like me and feel like me!<P>Anyway, thanks, Nick, for your thoughts and hugs and emails and stuff. I know you don't know exactly what to say (who does?), but I also know you're here with me. We've been friends long enough now that we don't have to have words, right?<P>Bill, it sure was good to hear from you. He's not very receptive to counseling right now--that was one of my "conditions" to reconciling though, so I may JUST DO IT myself. I know you're right--I need wise council.<P>Dawnetta--chick, are we twins? I swear to God!! I didn't know that you two had tried to reconcile, but the words you wrote, I could have written myself: "I felt that I had to give up part of me again that I had just rediscovered. I wasn't so happy then either, and my X just couldn't understand that I needed him to take the lead in restoration for a while, and Plan A me a little bit. He just resented that I couldn't be the same happy go lucky person I had been before all this started." It's spooky!! Literally just the other night, my H told me that he does not understand why I can't love him with my whole heart and trust him. WELL DUH!! I don't think I'll ever feel quite solid again--at least not with him.<P>Petrie, thanks for helping me with my "reality check". I don't think of myself as negative or extremely judgemental either--but I do always look for where I could have improved, what I will do differently or better next time. I guess he feels that is judging his performance or something! Yeah--that one really threw me for a loop, because when he said that, I honestly stopped and thought to myself: "Is that ME? Is that my natural character--to be negative and judgemental? Is that how almost everyone else sees me?" That just sounded so far off that it literally stopped me.<P>Bramble Rose, you note scares me a little because what you wrote is certainly how I "feel": I too have heard about how "magnificent" the OW was--she was patient, nonjudgemental, "happy go lucky", and she let things just roll off her back. I heard how she had the right kind of body type, how she kept her house cleaner, and how she knew how to "just know" what to do for him. And I have also heard how I am completely irrational, illogical, not understandable, crazy, emotional, critical, and completely incapable of being the kind of wife he wanted. You wrote: "I thought I had cried buckets during his affair. Well, these were even bigger buckets." YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! I thought my nights of all-night-cries were over! When he first left, I did cry once for three days and nights, but as you know, gradually over the months, I felt stronger and didn't cry so much--heck, I was actually beginning to feel happy and free to be me. Now that we're back together, I'm back to crying until my eyes are sore and drinking tons of coffee at work just to stay awake! Damn, I hate this!!<P>Living With Memories--Hey, I love your name! It says so much! Anyway, you have a good point there about maybe projecting feeling about himself onto me. He has done that in the past (who hasn't?), but I'll consider what you're saying. Good point!<P>hopelessinAZ, I hope your name changes to happyinAZ soon! Thank you for taking the time to write to me even though we haven't written back and forth a lot. That's really something! Even if we aren't close forum friends, we are in this together, aren't we?<P>Tom, well, thanks for the birthday greetings! It's wierd to be 39yo--my last year as "thirty-something" haha! The funny thing is, I do love my H and want to stay married to him, but the immaturity throw up just feels so gross! <P>Steve, like you, I have found out that my H was involved in more than one "inappropriate" relationship--this was just the one that went the farthest and that I knew about. The other ones, to be honest, I suspected and we fought about a little, but it never turned into a 1 year relationship like this one. Anyway, I love what you wrote about mourning the death, because I was just this weekend trying to explain how I did at one time feel solid and passionate and my whole heart was his, but now, after everything that has occurred, it's like a death--like walking on thin ice that could crack at any minute. I still feel same passion and strength within me, but I don't trust "the whole thing" with him, and he DOES NOT understand why I can't.<P>Thorned Rose, I am so glad that you wrote, because I have a horrible tendency to stop working on myself and my own needs, and put his needs first--you know what I mean. That is one thing I have just recently returned to: being the best person I can be, and working on myself, and making sure to keep my connection to God. I know I can't "control" him or how he's going to act, but I do have a tendency to get so wrapped up in not LBing, meeting his ENs and working and analyzing and blah, blah, blah that I put my own "Cindy Time" aside. So, lady, thanks for the reminder because for me, it is so important that I get my own "Cindy Time".<P>DanaB--hey there! Gosh, I think we are soul sisters underneath too. I feel exactly like what you described in your "first year": I absolutely feel like I'm living on jello instead of something solid, I'm scared he's going to leave again at any minute, and I second guess myself all the time. It's tiring! I do in fact carry some level of mistrust for him; I sure as heck do not feel safe; and he totally does not understand why. I don't understand how he could possibly think I would be able to "be like you used to be." I'm hearing your advice about taking it one day at a time, and even today, I'll take it an hour at a time just to get through. Thanks!<P>Sheryl, I love that book, "The Road Less Traveled", and I often think of that as I suffer through these days. I'm glad you appreciate my jokes. Day after day people hurt and are sad, and I kind of hoped that an occasional joke would remind us all (myself included) that sometimes life is funny and sometimes there is joy and laughter. <P>Orchid, I don't know what to say to you except that it's nice to know that WHATEVER faces us, we'll go through it together. It sounds like we are also soul sisters (darn, I have a lot of sisters who got lost, don't I?), and I will share what's happening with me if you will share what's happening with you. Okay? I'll hug you, you hug me!<P>Your Most Royal Majesty--as always it is an honor and a priviledge to have a queen like you acknowledge a servant such as myself. Your royal generosity and supportiveness is magnanimous! Okay, sis, do you know what? I brought one of your gold swans to work with me, and it sits beside me at my desk. It reminds me of my friends and sisters "out there", and I can honestly say that I am so glad and thankful for you! In case you missed it, I love you!<P>Tex: well yahoo! Howdy, pardner! I haven't heard from you in a season or two, but like you said I think of you a lot. Thanks for your email, but mostly thanks for the reality check--I'll stay the course (you know I will), but the waves are pretty big, they're crashing in, and I'm starting to get seasick. <P>And last but not least, Ragamuffin. Hey, it is so good to hear from you! Yes, can you believe that I'm 39 now? I think I was in my twenties when this all started (haha). Anyway, I have to say that I am right with you on wondering where "CJ's personal well being" is in all of this--mentally, physically and emotionally. To be honest, this has also been a big concern of mine. When he left, I felt like I grew by leaps and bounds, and now not only am I not growing, but I'm also "going backwards" and that concerns me tremendously! Okay, it scares me!!<P>Thank you all for your responses, and you know, I do love you all!<P><BR>CJ<P> <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ - I've heard those lines. All those put downs. <P>Now, if someone says to you, "I can't believe you have everyone else fooled into thinking you are a nice person," who do you think you should believe. The crowd that loves you or the person tromping on your heart. <P>Let's pray that Mark is just going through some sort of personal hell and that his heart can be touched.<P>I'm going to give you some advice. And you can take it for what it's worth. You know I recommended at the start of this reconciliation effort that you not go it alone - that you get some good counseling and guidance. Now I'm going to recommend that you get some for yourself. I would recommend that in order to fortify you. Then, if you two aren't working with someone, I would recommend couple counseling. <P>But it sounds as if you need it before you can go much farther with the couples issues.<P>Please know that I consider you a dear friend and that you are in my thoughts and prayers often. And if you are soul sisters with me and also with all these other women, does this mean this is a really huge group of sisters - and maybe brothers?

CJ,<P>First, <B>thoughts on marriage counseling:</B><P>Maybe it's groupthink, but it does seem like it's time, even if you just call one of the Harleys once or twice by yourself. Since you're a Broncos fan and it comes naturally to a guy to talk about football , I'm going to use a football analogy.<P>Dr. Harley's principles are like the game plan from the head coach. Not every game (marriage) is winnable, but following the game plan (perhaps modified for your individual situation) gives you the best shot. Many of the people in the forums are pretty good position coaches. They'll help you and encourage you in carrying out your assignment and becoming a better blocker or tackler. But sometimes a person gets to the point that you're really discouraged and have lost sight of the game plan or have lost hope that you can win the game. At that point it's time to talk to the head coach, because really you're most like the quarterback calling the plays, and you can't afford to lose sight of the game plan.<P>Anyway, that's my football analogy, free of charge .<P>I think someone also mentioned the other forums here. I would like to suggest you also spend some time on the EN forum. There are a lot of people there who are good with the MBTI stuff, and you have a real challenge with four opposite letters, as I recall. You're good at that stuff too, but someone not in the situation may give you some ideas.<P>Also, a lot of people there deal a lot with boundary issues, and you seem to need to work on this. Moving a seemingly immovable spouse, and doing it lovingly and without "losing" yourself is tough, and you may also get some good suggestions about that issue.<P>Finally, I haven't had time to check this out, but several people have recommended a book called <I>Boundaries in Marriage</I>. It might be worth considering.<P>Keep trying, we're all pulling for you.<P>Steve