Okay...as most know..I am the WS..and I am really struggling here on if I want this marriage or not..some days I do<BR>others I don't..not seeing OP anymore..soooo<P>I guess one thing that I am really struggling with is this..<BR>stbxh (says he's filing for d, had already contacted an atty) yet he says he doesn't want a divorce..and that he wants his family...yet his actions show 100% the opposite direction..of that..especially when it comes to the kids..<BR>when they ask him if they can stay the night w/ him..he says<BR>No, they can stay over only on certain nights..Wend., and one night usually on the weekends..and THATS ALL THE TIME HE SPENDS WITH THEM...the girls won't go on wend nights because they don't like getting up at 4:30 in the morning..so they don't go..so they only see him the one night on the weekend..he won't come get them during the week because he says its to much on him..driving out here to get them and driving home..and then driving back over here..and back again..it's only 15 minutes away..so tell me...if you could spend more time w/ your kids..would you?? do you?? I mean..example..he had them the other afternoon to take them to the dentist..then drove through the fastfood lane for a burger and brought them home..and went on about his business..the kids wanted to go w/ him..and asked to go...but he refused to take them..because he didn't want to deal w/ them while he went to the store..I mean..are these the actions of someone who wants to be a part of a family??<BR>and someone who says they love thier children..and wants to spend more time with them?? he is used to living alone..(since he's only been home one weekend a month)for the past nine years..and not used to being around kids..<P>I also look at the fact that he has two sons from previous relationships, one he let her new h adopt..(so he wouldn't have to pay child support) and the other he's never met..and has no desire to meet him.. I don't know..I guess I look at him and see someone who just wants someone to take care of him (like his mommy did till we met)..wash his clothes, pick up after him..cook his meals..and doesn't want the rest of the things that go along w/ a marriage (except the sex)<P>can you make someone become more responsible? or how do you help them to become more responsible? this is something that really bothers me and upsets me..because..he acts like he doesn't care about the kids..

Hi TR,<P>How do your children feel? I have talked with our son and when he is asked (he is 6), he will tell. Rarely does he offer his opinion. What he does say is revealing. Those thoughts I share with WS. <P>In my case, WS is the one distant from his own son. Now he is paying the price for that distance. Almost like the song cats in the cradle. H's family was never close. With 12 children, there was no family bond. H did not feel close with his son. So our son felt closer with others like his uncles, grandfather, family friends, etc. <P>I would recommend that you find out about your children's feelings. This could be an eye opener. <P>I am glad that as a former WS you are putting the needs of your children and even your H ahead of your own. You are to be commended for that effort. <P>I hope some of this info is helpful.<P>L.<P>

Ask them how they feel about what? our separation?<BR>a divorce? how he treats them? do they want to spend time<BR>with him? How do they feel about how he doesn't spend more<BR>time with them?

Dear TR,<P>I am sorry I took so long to respond. It has been a busy day at work. The questions to your children can start out real general. Their responses will direct you what to ask. <P>In my case, I asked my son how he felt about his dad. What he thought about his dad not living at home with us. As he volunteered more information, I would ask more questions. Sometimes he would answer then change the subject. So that was my cue to hold off for a while. <P>Remember this is painful for them also. I had to remind my son that this separation was not his fault. His father still loved him just could not live here at this time. <P>At one point, my son said, "I just don't get it, if dad loves me he should be living here at home." He was right. So I just said, that is a good thought, maybe you can share it with your dad. <P>Another time, our son said that he was too embarressed to talk to his dad about it because in his mind, grownups should know better. Out of the mouths of babes. That little guy was right. <P>The one thing that did bother my son was he felt his friends and classmates would make fun of him since he did not have a dad. According to my son, if dad moved out of the house, he did not have a dad. In the sense that he could talk about his dad as if he was living at home doing normal things. <P>I can share more later if you would like. I did read on this site how infidelity affects children. Maybe some of that info will be helpful to you also. <P>Take care,<BR>L.<BR>

Orchid,<P>Thanks for the reply..<P>My kids have never really lived with their dad..you see..his<BR>work has always had him away..to where he's only been home<BR>one weekend a month for the nine years we have been married..our two youngest have only spent about 1 school year living w/ him..and that was three years ago, he had been working on a job that lasted more than 5 months..so I packed the kids up and we went there..he worked ALL the time..even weekends, when he wasn't working..he was drinking..when he home on those weekends every month he<BR>was drinking..and push them away..they would ask me why he<BR>even bothers coming home..he would lock himself out in his shed, and not be apart of the family..<P>A few weekends when we were up with him I came home to check on the house..or would go to the library to some family research, I'd leave the kids with him..and I'd call home..and he was drunk..the kids have told me they are afraid of him when he's drinking..(he'd gotten mad at me one weekend I'd come home for a friends wedding, and put a hole<BR>in the wall)I've explained this to him..that they are afraid of him when he's drinking..and his reply was..NO, they aren't..because they won't talk to him..they too are afraid<BR>of talking to dad about anything..I try and encourage them to tell him how they feel..because he thinks I am just "making" it all up because they don't say anything..they expressed the same thing to a counselor..and she talked to him..so he doesn't drink as much when he has them..and is finally, I think..(but I don't know) understanding..they don't know what he's going to do to them if he gets mad..I mean..hey..if he's mad at mom and puts a whole in the wall for going to a friends wedding whats he going to do me if I do something "he" thinks is wrong?<P>The girls don't like to be around him much because they can't talk..he likes quite..if they are laughing and playing together..he yells at them to Stop..and shut-up..if he's watching tv and they are playing..he yells at them to LISTEN..I tell them to make friends with other kids where he lives so that they will have people to play with..they are making a few..<P>My youngest daughter was listening to a song one day..by Conway Twitty.."He's been to busy drinking..she's been to busy thinking..about the kind of love she needs and the man she never see's" and she said.."that songs about you mom"..<BR>my heart just sank..but she was right..<P>his dad was an alcoholic..and his mom stayed..his BIL is an alcoholic..and his sister has stayed with him..never saying anything..he looks at it as his drinking hasn't caused him to lose a job so therefore he doesn't have a drinking problem..to him..his drinking isn't a problem..to me..having been sexually abused by my drunk father..his drinking is a BIG problem..and since I have been healing from my past..<BR>it's become an even bigger issue with me..especially how he gets when he's drinking..wanting to paw all over me..it shows me that he has no respect for my feelings..or for me..<BR>I've told him how I feel about it..and all he says..is "I'm NOT your dad" which yes that is true..but the feelings it stirs up in me...are the same..and those I am working through..<P>But, the kids don't like his drinking..and they don't like that he's always been gone..but they also don't like the way he is when he is home..so they would like to see him change..but he doesn't see think he needs to change..he says.."I" need to change..he doesn't like the changes I have made in the past two years..more vocal about my feelings on how he talks to me..and how he condemns me..I tell him don't talk to me like a child..and his response is.."oh yeah..YOUR FREE WHITE AND 21, I FORGOT" and to be honest..I don't want my children to think that this is normal..and thats what marriage is supposed to be like..<P>I need to get..I'm running late..need to get to work.<P>thanks for listening..

Dear TR,<P>It is late and I have had a long day, but I wanted to see how you were doing. From you recent post, it is evident that you need support and assistance in several areas. <P>There are some here that can assist with information on how to help someone with a drinking problem. Also how to get support for their families. I am not as familiar with that info, but keep posting and I am sure someone will reply. Maybe even under a new thread specifically about this problem. <P>Also, if you and your children can get into some counseling it will help all of your family. TR, you can not go through this alone. You have mentioned how bothered you are about how much your children are seeing. You only mentioned a little about how you are feeling on all that is happening. <P>I am not sure how much more I can help, just to let you know that you and your family are in my prayers. Keep encouraging your children to talk to you. If they can confide in a safe source, that may be helpful for you as well. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Orchid,<P>I was in counseling for over a year..I know of ala-non...<BR>and alateen for families of alcoholics..I've even looked into going..but they meet on Monday nights in our area and I have a bible study I go to every Monday night and have been going to for over a year now..<P>Stbxh and I went to a counselor..we both went the first night..and then she asked to see him alone for the next few visits..she new I was in counseling already..with another counselor..and she was wanting to talk to him..she and my counselor worked together and they were going to set up a time where the four of us could meet after he'd been going<BR>and working on him first, work on his depression and drinking..and learning to deal w/ his stress, anger and jealousy in an appropriate manner..but he quit going saying it wasn't helping since all she wanted to talk about was him..and not how to save the marriage..but there can't be a marriage if he doesn't get a handle on these other things...<BR>and even when I've told him that..he's like there's nothing wrong w/ me..and I don't need a counselor..this is a man who has no friends that he confides in..he doesn't he even confide in me..<P>How do I feel...I feel betrayed..(even though I was the WS)<BR>I feel he put me and the family last in his life, his work first then his drinking..and we were left with nothing..<BR>I feel lied to..he said many times over the years that he would get another job that would bring him home..he did that once..only because I sent the resume's out for him..he didn't do anything himself to look..and then last year he told me that he has never had any intentions of looking for another job..because he makes more money now than he ever has..I don't care about the money..I'd even offered to go back to work if thats what it took if he had to make less money..but he wouldn't hear of that..it hurts that he puts everything before us..<P>I feel judged guilty and condemned by him..with every arguement..(always about my past relationships..and how I had sex with all these other men) before we were married..<BR>and how I didn't have sex with him while we dated..(I was a growing Christian at that time..still a babe in Christ..but growing) I feel I was decieved about his relationship with<BR>Christ..my being a babe in Christ didn't fully understand to look at the actions of the person and not just listen to the words they spoke..so that deception is my own fault..because I wasn't prepared Spiritually..nor emotionally..for a marriage..I wanted a relationship based on friendship,<BR>sharing, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy..but we didn't have that..he went to church..but he wouldn't pray with me except on occassion when I was really persistant about it..then he only did it because I pretty much forced it..I used to go on visitation ever week..and he knew how<BR>important it was to me..then on those nights he would come over and not leave..and I felt horrible about just leaving him sit there at my house when I went and so I quit going..<BR>and I put him before God..these are things I SHOULD HAVE SEEN!!! As a Christian I SHOULD HAVE LOOKED at these things..as God showed them to me then..I didn't look at his drinking..I didn't look at his controlling behavior..even when it came to my Christian friends..and how he didn't like them..So many things I look back at..and see all the signs were there..all the red flags to end the relationship I did a couple times..only to have him call to see my daughter..and start crying about how much I am hurting him..<BR>and how much he missed my daughter..and how he was the only father she knew and how I was only hurting the two of them by he and I not seeing each other..and how she really needed a father..being made to feel the guilt of hurting my daughter..for this man not being in her life..so I feel manipulated...<P>All I wanted was a man I could share my life with..share my spiritual growth in Christ with..share my hurts and pains with..someone who loved God as much as I do..and who wanted to share that Love..someone who I could grow in Christ with..and who would grow in Christ with me..some who could be my Spiritual leader..and help mate..and those were things he "said" he wanted..but his actions even then...said just the opposite..something total opposite of what I have..<P>I feel ashamed for not looking at what God was showing me in his actions..that I didn't understand to look at the actions and not listen to the words..when they say...actions speak louder than words..I see that now..sad it is such a painful lesson..and for the past nine years I've listened to his words, his promises..and not looking at his actions...and when I was in counseling and healing from my past sexual abuse the past couple years..I have been learning to look at the actions..of others to see if they are trustworthy..and not just listen to the words..because people lie to us all the time..and if we don't have discernment as to what a trustworthy person is..by watching the actions..and not just listening to the words...we'll be taken advantage of everytime...<P>I know that is what I was taught...my dad "said" he loved me..but he abused me..even though his words said one thing..his actions said another..and in order to survive the abuse..I had to learn to listen to the words..and not watch the actions..how could this person if he loved me so much..hurt me this way?? He wouldn't lie to me..he's my dad..but the realty of it all is just the opposite..and that has been the hardest to face..as has been posted in a couple other places on this board..if they don't love God..then they can't truely love themselves..and in not loving themselves they can't truely love others..they try to love through control and fear..and love and fear can't live together in harmony..oh well...

Dear ThornedRose:<P>As others can also assure you, alcoholism makes the whole marriage question a completely different situation all together.<P>I am married to an active alcoholic. And from reading your story, I can tell you that my H isn't as badly affected as yours....and I almost found it impossible to live with mine.<P>You must be a very tough lady!<P>I'm going to make two suggestions, both of which I most strongly encourage you to follow. <P>First, get Melody Beattie's book, "CoDependent No More". Melody was both an alcoholic, and a relative of other active alcoholics. It was through her book that I discovered what was so wrong with me, and my family. Until that time, I was in complete denial about the effect of my H's drinking on my family. <P>Second, look in the phone book for your local Al-Anon phone number. If you can't find one, there will probably be a listing for Alcoholics Anonymous. Call that number, and they will know how to reach Al-Anon. When you contact Al-Anon, ask for meetings in your local area. Then go!!!<P>Many people don't realize that AA and Al-Anon are two different organizations, so be sure not to get them confused. AA is for the drinker...Al-Anon is for us crazy people that have to live with them!! <P>Here is an introduction frequently used at meetings:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We who live, or have lived, with the problem of alcoholism understand as perhaps few others can. We, too, were lonely and frustrated but in Al-Anon we discover that no situation is really hopeless and that it is possible for<BR>us to find contentment and even happiness whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not.<P>We urge you to try our program. It has helped many of us find solutions that lead to serenity. So much depends on our own attitudes and as we learn to place our problem in its true perspective we find it loses its power to dominate our thoughts and our lives.<P>The family situation is bound to improve as we apply the Al-Anon ideas. Without such spiritual help living with an alcoholic is too much for most of us. Our thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions, and we become irritable and unreasonable without knowing it.<P><BR>The Al-Anon program is based on the Twelve Steps (adapted from Alcoholics Anonymous), which we try, little by little, one day at a time, to apply to our lives along with our slogans and the Serenity Prayer.<P>The loving interchange of help among members and daily reading of Al-Anon literature thus make us ready to receive the priceless gift of serenity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would encourage you to attend Al-Anon meetings for at least 6 months before you make any "life changing" decisions.<P>Considering what you have said about your family, and your dad, and what you experienced growing up, I would also strongly recommend that you order Survival to Recovery - you can order it through Amazon, or through the Al-Anon website - OR you can probably get it much cheaper through your local Al-Anon literature distribution center.<P>As for your H, you can't "get" your H to be more responsible and love your children more. You didn't cause his drinking problem, you can't cure it, and you can't possibly control it. What you can do however, is get help for you, and help for your children. Your teens would be helped immensely by Alateen. You can find out about Alateen at your Al-Anon meeting...often they have Alateen meetings at the same time. <P>My kids are young however, and can't work a 12-step program! What I did was started going through the phone book and calling anything that might have a program for kids. In my county there was a Substance Abuse Council that offered a free 14 week family course - it offered parenting classes, family cooperation activities, etc. While us parents were learning how to be parents...the kids were learning about living with alcoholics and drug addicts.<P>My kids LOVED it. And it helped them understand our family circumstances soooooooooooo well. My children know what alcoholism is now, and talk to me frequently about it. It helps them to understand that alcoholism causes their father to make bad choices - and that he isn't rejecting THEM, and that if he could, he would love them. <P>Anyway, I know I didn't provide any quick answers, and I am sorry. There aren't any with a situation like yours. I do hope that you get yourself and your children the help and support you all deserve!!<P>((((((((hugs)))))))))<BR>

Hi its me again...<P>The Al-Anon website: <A HREF="http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/</A> <P>I also belong to an excellent online Al-Anon mail list, it's at <A HREF="http://www.steps2recovery.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.steps2recovery.org</A> <P>I can completely understand how ashamed you feel that you didn't notice all those "red-flags". Neither did I. But you know what? I didn't understand that alcoholism is "contagious" - in the sense that it is not just a physical addiction, but also a emotional and <B>spiritual</B> dysfunction. I was also under the "fog" of alcoholism for many years, and didn't make the best decisions. <P>Actually, those who live with alcoholics end up crazier than the addict themselves. They at least have a medication to numb themselves from the emotional and spiritual pain that they experience. Those of us without that "medication" experience their disease stone-cold sober, and it does make you nuts, if you don't have the guidance, help and support of others who have lived with this disease.<P>Now that I know better, I can do better.<P>I can tell you that I have had a spiritual awakening through my practice of the 12 steps. I had lots of religious intellectual understanding, but no real spiritual or emotional connection with God before I joined Al-Anon.<P>Al-Anon gave me my life, and God to me. Please give it a chance!! <P>((((ThornedRose)))) <BR>

BrambledRose,<P>i've read that one..and Adult Children of Alcoholics, and <BR>The Wounded Heart by Dr. Alander (help for adult survivors<BR>of childhood sexual abuse) i've read boundries, and Toxic Parents, was in a support group for adult survivors (shelter from the storm) they changed the meetings from Sunday nights to Tuesday mornings..while I am at work..so I had to quit going..and I've read Beauty for Ashes..and many many others..and they have all helped..which is what gave me the strength to tell him to move out..because I couldn't take it anymore..and I know I can't change him..I can only change myself..my biggest problem I guess is letting go..and realizing that he won't change..until he realizes he needs to change..and listening to his words..and not watching his actions..when I really watch the actions I get hurt because I've been listening to the words..and hoping they were what he really means..but I'm learning they are just words..and don't mean anything to him..except to get what he wants..and that hurts..but how do you give up Hope that God will change them? That God can change them?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>..but how do you give up Hope that God will change them? That God can change them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know that it's a question of giving up hope. God <B>can</B> change your H, but not until your H decides to ask God for help.<P>Until then, the reality is that your H is who he is, not who you want him to be.<P>Acceptance of reality, and letting go of what is not yours to control in the first place is not mutually exclusive with the hope that one day God will be allowed to help your H. <P>You are already doing well by watching what he does, and not listening to what he says. Alcoholics are fantastic liars and manipulators. Plug your ears, and watch his actions.<P>And get yourself to an Al-Anon meeting!! <P>((((hugs))))<P>------------------<BR>--BR<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hi Tr & BRose,<P>I am soo glad BRose responded. I was thinking of both of you today and when I saw the responses, I felt some relief. <P>My dear TR, there is not much more I can say. BRose has written well and has much more insight than I. You & your family will continue to be in my heart & prayers. <P>Your friend,<BR>L.<P><BR>