Well, I'm sorry to say we had another terrible night last night. At this point, I just feel like curling up and sleeping!<P>After you all wrote such great encouragement and such wise council, I thought I made a really smart move. I printed out the whole post and I went up to my spot on Lookout Mountain to re-read everything and think. I came up with some REALLY good stuff--so much so that I wrote it down because I didn't want to forget it! For example, I should seek out an individual counselor right away. I should take the lead on scheduling and going to marriage counseling, whether he comes along or not. I should keep my focus on the future and keep my eyes on the goal. I should start to LIST the positive stuff the we do right and that he does right, so I can have a more positive attitude. Most important of all, I need to DO what I know I need to do, whether he chooses to do his stuff or not--if I know something is hurting him, I need to stop and change whether he does or not because the standard that I hold myself to is: whether I am the woman and wife I am capable of being. It is NOT being the wife I can be if he is the husband he can be! So anyway, as you can see, it was pure gold stuff, and I was very proud of myself for getting my head on a little straighter and taking a little time for myself!! YAY CJ!! <P>I even thought about what, specifically, are the things that are hurting me right now, so that I could narrow it down and not just say, "I feel hurt" (too vague), but rather say, "When XYZ happens, it hurts me." Okay--I'll tell you there were three things: 1) I lost track of me. It's my job to do what I need to do in order to take care of myself, but I didn't and I felt like I was being lost in the shuffle. To fix this hurt, I must spend time for me, and I will need some of his cooperation. 2) I got overpowered. I was not taking care of the things I need to do for me, and by not doing that I lost some of my strength. Then, he came up with a major decision that I did not know about or agree with, and he just railroaded over the top of me, and I let him because I was weak. To fix this hurt, I need to be included in his decisions and be in agreement with them BEFORE they are made on both of our behalfs. You know POJA. 3) I feel unimportant. After we reconciled, he spent a lot of time with me, talking and acting like he was interested and I was interesting. Now, we wake up at 6am, go to work and work all day, eat dinner together as a family, and then he's back to work again until 10pm! Weekends too! I used to feel second on his list behind work, now I feel like I have fallen off the list! To fix this hurt, I need a commitment of time (you know, 15 hours/week) that HE is committed to, not just me reminding him and him reluctantly going along.<P>Well, all night he acted sort of standoffish. We watched TV and programmed computers all night until the kids went to bed, and we barely spoke at all. After the kids went to bed, I told him that I had a few "revelations" that I'd like to share with him (and I did), and boy! He just tore me to shreds! One by one, he knocked all my golden revelations down, ripped them up, and ended it all by telling me how I was hurting him! Well, I realize that, and I even addressed that by saying that I still need to behave as I know I should, whether he does or not. I feel like SO discouraged and hurt (and tired), I just can't do this!! <P>Man, I thought when we reconciled that I would be getting off the rollercoaster and getting on maybe a merry-go-round or something, but I haven't cried like this in almost a year! What in the heck is happening?<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I don't know quite what to say, except I am so sorry for your anguish. I'll be praying for you and your husband.<P>Petrie<BR>

Is there room for me to curl up next to you? My hubby is still in a fog (dday 9weeks ago). Last night he told me he decided he wants out of the marriage. I LB'd after I saw him talking on a payphone leaving her a sweet goodnight message. <P>Unlike me, you seem to be very focused on the right things to do. Keep doing them. Everyone here says that you should be the person you want to be. Just keep that focus and no matter what happens, you'll be OK. It's just so darn painful. It takes so much time and we don't understand how they can treat someone they love(d) this way.<P>How are your children handling the situation? Do you have any plans for the weekend? I am trying to make some now so I have something else to focus on besides the pain.<P>Good luck to you. If need someone to cry to...I'm here.<P>Exxon<BR>

Stay the course. Don't give up. Stay with it. <P>You may be just opening up stuff that your husband feels bad about in himself. I really did like the 15Hrs/week time together deal. Outstanding.<P>Hang in there CJ.<P>Tex.

(((((((((FaithfulWife and Exxon)))))))) This is a big hug and a shoulder to cry on.<P>I can't offer any advice. Pray, cry, and vent. If you need to let your problems out do these things. It is healthy and part of the process. I'm on the same roller coaster.<P>Love Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

THX Bill...you've been a great support to me today.<BR>Exxon

CJ,<P>Let me relay to you a story about me from two years ago, when work was consuming all of my time. I felt like I was getting nowhere - all the hard work I was doing, was showing absolutely no benefits. I felt like a failure. I can now see that I was depressed at that time. I hated myself. Since I did not love myself it was very hard for me to be "giving" to my wife. I specifically remember her coming to me with ideas about things we could do for the weekend. Each and every idea she came up with, I shot down. What a jerk I was to her. And as I did it, I could see the hurt in her eyes, but I could not stop myself - I just felt terrible...<P>Months ago when I was evaluating what my problems were in my marriage, I came back to the sermon the priest gave to us on my wedding day... The theme was that there are three types of love in everyone's life and they need to be in a specific order for a person to have a good life: 1) You must love God first and foremost. 2) You must love yourself, 3) You must love your neighbor. He went on to say that if any one of these "loves" are missing, each of the other two will be effected, but it goes even further - He said you must love in that specific order; for if you don't love God, you won't know what true love is - if you don't love yourself, there is no way you can love others (which includes your spouse).<P>I thought long and hard on this one and realized that my depression had thrown those three loves all out of whack. And since they were all messed up, I could not and did not love my wife in the way she needed to be loved.<P>I guess what I am saying is that right now you can't expect too much from your husband - for it sounds like he is depressed, and if he is not happy with himself or proud of himself, he can not show love effectively for you. That does not mean he has no love to give, only that he needs to fix himself before he can focus on fixing the way he loves you.<P>That is why I agree with everyone here that counseling seems to be the best course of action for you two right now. What worked for me was seeing my wife going by herself to the counselor. After a couple times she told me that he wanted to see me with her. Of course I fought it, but she said it was to help her out, not because "I" needed help. That allowed me to save face. Little did I know that I would end up getting the most out of the sessions we had. But I was just stubborn...<P>In the short term try pretending you have a big strong shield in front of you. When you go to him with something that you fear has the potential to get a bad reaction from him, picture yourself "popping up" from behind the shield, throwing out your comment, and then quickly "ducking" behind the shield again. If/when he comes back at you to shoot down your ideas, let them bounce off your shield. It may do two things for you - first you may find yourself smiling as you picture yourself popping up and down behing an imaginary shield (which will lower the stress and tension) and secondly it will keep reminding you not to be so effected by his negativity....<P>You are in my prayers!<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

FW,<P>You just sound so depressed...situational depression...I have been there...it makes you unable to function and think clearly.<P>If you think you could stand it, I would really suggest talking to your doctor about some short term perscription help to shake you out of this particular low spot on the roller coaster...plus to get some sleep. Sleep deprivation only adds to the depression and unclear (dare I say foggy) thinking. Let me repeat, I HAVE BEEN THERE.<P>Counseling too is good...mine helped me so much in my self-esteem regrouping...and in validating much of what I was feeling.<P>Take care of yourself first...it's like being on an airplane that might crash...oxygen on you first, then save the person in the seat next to you...no matter what THEY say.<P>Take care...(((((((((FW))))))))))<P>Lisa (aka Soon2b)<P>

It's called ADDICTION WITHDRAWAL! and man is it hard, but since he is projecting his hurt onto you, its not fair to you, but that is how the fog works. <P>Have you called the Harleys?? lets go on this one, you have a whole weekend now before you can call again, but its only 3PM out in the wild west, make the call now!<P>you are very intuitive and perceptive, but one can't always go it alone right here. Even though you have such depths of feelings, its not about you, but about him, and he hasn't started to look at himself yet.<P>Now, I was also where Mike was, struggling with work with a bunch of @ssh0les, and i was not receptive to anything, and in all likelyhood, there was some kind of contact with OW, and the fog rolled back in thicker, or he ws trying to recreate the past when you guys worked together. Remember, this is very hard, and could get harder, so that's why you need professional support.<P>dial, before the day runs out!!!<P>

((((((CJ))))))<P>First of all, I think you are a pretty brave lady. I didn't have the courage to get online and admit to anyone that my "recovery" wasn't going well, and that I was a wreck. My pride will ever be one of my biggest character defects!<P>I almost hesitated to respond to your post, but honestly, you could be describing ME to a T during the months that my H and I were "recovering". I don't want to scare you or discourage you, and I certainly don't want you to think that because our stories are so similiar, that your recovery is headed in the same direction mine was. <P>I want to stress to you that our stories are different in a very key way; my H is an unrecovered alcoholic. He isn't capable of participating in a marriage. <P>You really did recognize some very "pure gold stuff"!!! That stuff is still true, regardless of what your H said about it all. <P>Something I learned in Al-Anon, that I remind myself of constantly when dealing with my H is that: <B><I>People in pain, cause pain.</I></B> <P>Your H sounds like he is still fogged, and still dealing with the pain of withdrawal. He's feeling like the victim, and (in his head at least) YOU, my dear CJ, caused it all! The guilt, and the refusal to take responsiblity for his own share in the mess of your marriage is getting deflected back onto you.<P>Do you know what helped me? Again, this is Al-Anon stuff, but I did a very searching moral inventory of my own behavior in my marriage. I used the Love Buster questionnaire, and I changed all the questions around.<P>For example, I took this question:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>II. Disrespectful Judgements (Attempts by your spouse to change your attitudes, beliefs and behavior by trying to force you into his/her way of thinking. If 1) he/she lectures you instead of respectfully discusses issues, 2) feels that his/her opinion is superior to yours, 3) talks over you or prevents you from having a chance to explain your position or 4) ridicules your point of view he/she is engaging in disrespectful judgments). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And I rewrote it. So instead it read:<P>II. Disrespectful Judgements (Attempts by <B>me</B> to change my H's attitudes, beliefs and behavior by trying to force him into <B>my</B> way of thinking. And etc...<P>This little moral inventory helped me to see my behavior to my H in a completely different light. I was able to pinpoint things that I was doing that hurt him.<P>I had to force myself to keep the focus on ME and on what MY responsiblities were to my H and our recovery. Everytime I sat on the pity pot, and started feeling angry and hurt because I wasn't getting what I needed...my love busting increased ten-fold. <P>Eventually however, I did recognize that as a result of my H's illness, that he was incapable of filling my needs. And that because of his illness, that I was incapable of filling his, NOT because of something I was doing wrong, but because of something (alcoholism) that was seriously wrong with him.<P>I know that I am glad I had those months to "recover" with him. I got a chance to prove <B>to myself</B> that I *was* able to be a good wife. No, he doesn't think that I am, and he let me know it frequently. I completely understand the devastation that hits you when your H does this. What I finally realized was that just because he rejected my changed behavior - it didn't mean that he was right, or that I was really a horrible wife or a worthless person.<P>I never, in the entire time during his affair, felt the need to use a suicide prevention hotline. During "recovery" I did feel that need, and used it. My expectations of what HE should be doing were so high, and I was so busy trying to force him into healing my hurts, that I got lost. I used to look in the mirror, and try to figure out what happened to me. <P>I learned that I had to keep the focus on ME, and what I was supposed to be doing. I learned that I had to accept him even in recovery, as who he was, not who I wanted him to be. That recovery did not mean that he was going to become the person I had fantasized about all those months while he was off with his OW.<P>I hope even a little bit of what I had to say here helps. I do pray that your recovery will be more successful than mine!!! (((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))<P><BR>PS. I'm an INFP also!! <BR>------------------<BR>--BR<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited April 27, 2001).]

(((((((((((CJ))))))))))<P>I wish I could say something useful, but I'm having a really down day today myself . I found it interesting that someone posted, people who are in pain, cause pain.<BR>I never heard it before, but it makes sense. <P>Hugs, Dana<BR>

Gosh, everyone, I will take all the prayers and hugs and good thoughts that I can get--everything helps. Thanks for all your comments.<P>Hi, Petrie! I miss emailing to you! I think I'll try to do that more often!<P>Exxon, I have plans for the weekend to do a garage sale. My kids are reacting to this by wondering why I am so sad, and they have been such a blessing to me. THANK GOD for my children! But, hey, let me scoot over--there's room for both of us to curl up! <P>Tex, I miss you too! BTW, don't worry, I'll never totally drop out as your friend--it just may get a little long in between. But I HATE losing track of people, don't you? I think about you every now and then too, and I'd love to hear what's happening with you.<P>LostHusband, I'm on the MindBender--which one are you on? Gosh, if you can't cry anymore, laugh, right? Anyway, I thought I was on the ferris wheel or something nice, but then the coaster took a big dip. I have re-learned, though, how much it helps to share with people and let them minister to me and help me. I keep re-learning that lesson!<P>Mike, as usual you pack a wallop in your response. I'm virtually positive that the story you told me is EXACTLY what is happening here, but I can't help but feel like I'm being mowed down for his problems. I totally agree with everyone that I should go to a counselor, and I will tell you'all on Monday when my first appointment will be. Until then, I will remember your shield idea (it's kind of funny). BTW, I want to personally thank you for sharing your story like that. I know it must not have been easy to say out loud in front of everyone, but I appreciate your willingness to open up for me and expose a "weakness" so that I can feel better--and so will everyone else on the forum who reads it. Thanks, bud!<P>Lisa, I usually don't sleep a ton, because I'm a peanut with a busy mind, but you are so right: sleep deprivation does affect performance after a couple of days. I will go to bed early tonight to take care of myself. <P>Tom, "Yes, dad!" heehee I shall tell you Monday when my first appointment is. It's no excuse or reason, but it is somewhat comforting to at least have a possible reason "why" he is ripping me up.<P>Bramble Rose, is there any chance you are my long, lost twin? In my family, my dad is an unrecovered alcoholic--I recognize that and he does not. So, I have often found AA stuff helpful in dealing with this whole affair ordeal. I thought of the addition to the affair as being just like the addiction to alcohol. I thought of "the fog" as the way you can talk to an alcoholic until you are blue in the face, but until they hit bottom and want to do it themselves, it's futile. I thought of the withdrawal as being just like the withdrawal from drinking. Etc. It has really been a helpful way to make some of this make sense. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! <P>I've also found that the AA steps and that way of life has been very helpful for me, as I try to apply the concepts to relationships. For example, to admit that my marriage has gotten out of my control and I have to turn it over to God. To take the honest, searching moral inventory of myself and my actions. This stuff is pure gold to me, and to be honest, that is part of what I lost--to keep the focus on me and my own actions no matter how he acts. <P>Anyway, I swear we are one mind, two bodies. I felt sad and rejected when he left and chose someone else, but I gradually grew up and felt strong and became me. Now that we've reconciled, I just feel like I will never be quite right again. The words go through my head, "This is killing me!" and I wish I could have a break and find myself again!<P>And last but not least, DanaB. Hey, you don't have to say any or do anything--just be here with me. How about if we sit together and commiserate and cry with each other? We don't need to talk. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Dana}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>CJ<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ,<P>I think WIFFT and BrambleRose have it. He's in pain and withdrawal, and this is probably at least a major part of why he acts like this. It seems to me that you're very early in recovery, and his contact with the OW didn't end that long ago.<P>Someone going through withdrawal usually experiences depression, anxiety, and anger--all in a very intense form. The feeling of utter hopelessness, the fear of making a catastrophic mistake, and <B>even anger toward a betrayed spouse</B> are overwhelming.<P>Sound anything like your H? If it does, at least to a degree that is abnormal for him, then we may have at least a partial diagnosis. BTW, I lifted the sentences in the preceding paragraph verbatim from my copy of SAA (except that the emphasis is mine). <P>Dr. Harley goes on to note that he often suggests anti-deps for the WS going through withdrawal. He adds that <B>if there is total separation from the lover</B>, the most intense symptoms generally last about three weeks, and fade over about the next six months. <B>Contact with the OP resets the withdrawal time clock</B>. I forget the time frame of his last contact, but it seems logical that he's still in some degree of withdrawal.<P>I don't know what to say about his busyness. The Rule of Time is so important. For now, I think you may have to make the most of the time you have with him to try and meet ENs, to coax him back to where he really wants to spend more time with you.<P>Dr. Harley also recommends an extended vacation together, so that you can get in well over the 15 hours together, to jump start recovery. Any chance that you can get away with him (your H, not Harley ) for at least a weekend?<P>People get all bogged down in techniques for dealing with their spouse. If the spouse's love bank balance ever gets high enough, they should be easy to POJA with. So it boils down to avoiding lovebusting and meeting ENs. Unfortunately, you will probably have to put your needs mostly on hold for a time, which is why you need to keep doing things for yourself.<P>Just remember that when he begins to reciprocate and meet your ENs you <B>will</B> feel better, so much so that you'll think all the effort was worth it. Don't you just hate delayed gratification?<P>I hope you took Tom's advice, it seems you need hope more than anything. That's where someone who has successfully guided people to recovery comes in. They know from experience that it can work.<P>Hoping your weekend is better,<P>Steve

Ouch, CJ. Just...ouch.<P>{{{{{{CJ<P>At least now you know his accusation of negativity really <I>was</I> projection, huh?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bramble Rose, is there any chance you are my long, lost twin? In my family, my dad is an unrecovered alcoholic--I recognize that and he does not. So, I have often found AA stuff helpful in dealing with this whole affair ordeal. I thought of the addition to the affair as being just like the addiction to alcohol. I thought of "the fog" as the way you can talk to an alcoholic until you are blue in the face, but until they hit bottom and want to do it themselves, it's futile. I thought of the withdrawal as being just like the withdrawal from drinking. Etc. It has really been a helpful way to make some of this make sense. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! <P>I've also found that the AA steps and that way of life has been very helpful for me, as I try to apply the concepts to relationships. For example, to admit that my marriage has gotten out of my control and I have to turn it over to God. To take the honest, searching moral inventory of myself and my actions. This stuff is pure gold to me, and to be honest, that is part of what I lost--to keep the focus on me and my own actions no matter how he acts. <P>Anyway, I swear we are one mind, two bodies. I felt sad and rejected when he left and chose someone else, but I gradually grew up and felt strong and became me. Now that we've reconciled, I just feel like I will never be quite right again. The words go through my head, "This is killing me!" and I wish I could have a break and find myself again!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Absolutely the affair is an addiction. The spiritual and emotional dysfunction (the fog) are completely the same! I can totally understand that "sucked in" feeling where you lose yourself. Detach, detach, detach!!! Be loving and courteous, but get those boundaries up so that you recognize you, and dont get mixed up with what is him and his problems. <P>You know, it never ceases to amaze me, how many people's lives are touched by alcoholism. My dad isn't an alcoholic, but because he grew up with an abusive alcoholic father of his own, he acts just like one. It wasn't an accident that I just fell into the arms of my alcoholic H. It felt pretty darn comfortable, because that was all I knew!<P>Something you might appreciate - last summer, my online Al-Anon group did a workshop using the 12 Traditions as a guide to healthy relationships. You might really be interested in the workshop material - it's still up on our website. You can access it at: <A HREF="http://www.steps2recovery.org/members/workshop.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.steps2recovery.org/members/workshop.html</A> <P>A good book to read also might be A Woman's Worth by Marianne Williamson.<P>And for now, your H isn't going to take care of you and your needs, so put yourself first. I don't mean being selfish, I mean paying attention to self-care, so that you do have something to give back to your H.<P>(((((hugs))))) I hope your day is going better today!!<p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited April 28, 2001).]