So, I'm finally coming to the conclusion (slap me if I'm in a daze now) that I upheld the POSITION of husband and father of our children... and held my H accountable to my perception of that.<P>At this point, he's breakin' free from those demands and expectations accusing me of never having known or accepted him. I think he may be right... he was a close enough model to what my expecations were and he strived to meet that but after 9 years burned out.<P>So, now that I understand that and look at the MAN of who my H is, do I love HIM or am I wanting to protect the marriage (which means the <I>role</I> of H and W?<P>This is getting scary to me... do I really love my H and am I willing to fight for my marriage for the marriage sake or because I love my H?<P>At this point, what is my choice because we have three kids and they didn't ask for a choice - they just want their M&D.<P>What thoughts to you have...? Help b/c I feel like I'm getting more and more ready to let him go..................<BR><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

I am feeling that way also today. I just came back from my atty office and I am thinking , WHY do I want to be married to this man. He is a Liar, cheater, manipulator, ?alcoholic, controller(somewhat), disrespectful to me and kids, Selfish (BIG TIME)<P>I also have 3 kids. This month they turn 3 and 4 and I have a 5 year old. Now that I am in this awful position, there are many reasons to stay married and many reasons to not (presently the reason Not to is because He doens't want to).<P>I suppose that if I could Make myself be selfish, really selfish, not care about anyone or anything, I could just walk out,, say see ya, take the kids (I'll visit when I feel like it) and have a great life. But that is not me. I would rather be dead than to act like that. <P>This is truly a question that I need to ponder because I think that if I figure out that I don't LOVE him maybe i could just "let go" <P>Hopelessmom

This is something that I have been thinking about a lot lately. I definalty have no more respect for my STBXH and the way he has lived his life for the past few years. But I feel that I still have love for him. My relationship with him was never what I wanted it to be, he never made me feel secure and unconditionally loved. So why do I grieve now that he is leaving?? I feel I should be saying I have a chance again at finding someone who will love me in the way I loved them, someone who will love me for me and all the great things I have to offer. I become empowered for a brief time but then slip back into the why is this happening mode. <P>I guess I need to believe that there are good men out there who value a committed relationship as much as I do. Someone who won't bail out when life gets a little dull but instead says hey things are getting dull around here I'm feeling dissatisfied let do something about it. Is that really asking too much??? <P>I do have to say that I really feel that I miss him less and less but I still miss the stability of the relationship. The thought of going out and playing the dating game again makes me feel tired. Think I will start a thread asking if dating after D is a horrible as dating in highschool and college. Are the mind games the same? I can't even imagine doing that again .

Yeah, well it's a drag coming to the realization that I was in love with the idea of who the man could become and not who he is. Question is, can I now fall in love with him just as he is? The Harley's say, 'yes' pretty emphatically. But that requires HIM meeting my emotional needs... now why would I do that when I'm not sure he's the one I love?<P>What is love anyway? Feeling very dazed and confused today...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

OvrCs,<P>This is an excellent question! You should congratulate yourself that you have gotten to this point--I'm very proud of you. Now, only YOU know the answer to the question you have asked, but if you are honest enough with yourself to ask it, I have high hope that you will be honest enough with yourself to answer it!<P>Here's the thing, though; and I am going to speak to you from my own situation. Briefly, my H left in Feb. 2000, returned for the summer of 2000 while carrying on with the OW behind my back, left again in Oct. 2000, and we agreed to try to reconcile in Feb. 2001. Like you, I began to question whether I was "in love" with the man or the image of what I thought a husband should be. In all honestly, I'd have to say it was a mix--there were (and are) definitely things about the man that I love, and yet there were (and are) expectations that I realize now are unrealistic for the man I married.<P>The long and short of it, though, is that whether I am "in love" with the man or not is irrelevant--I took vows to love, honor, and cherish him until my last breath. And no matter how much I fuss and worry and nag and expect from him, the only person to whom I can effectively make any changes is . . . ME! So I'd have to say that I had to change my image of "what a husband should be", let go of that unattainable ideal, and start to accept and appreciate what I did have. Now, for me, letting go of that ideal was almost as painful as realizing that I had responsibility in our marital woes! I have to confess, I STILL struggle with wanting the ideal husband. The trouble is, everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, and I don't want him to feel like the things that were "less than ideal" hung over his head forever.<P>So, I'd say you have to ask yourself several very hard questions:<P>1. Are you willing to honor your vow despite how you are feeling moment to moment?<P>2. Are you willing to acknowledge to yourself and your H that you held him to an unattainable ideal?<P>3. Are you willing to let go of that ideal and learn IN A NEW WAY how to love and appreciate the man to whom you are married?<P>I have to be honest. I have a lot of trouble with this one. My H has his faults, like everyone, but I keep expecting HIM to make up for the past year, to romance me, to reassure me, to make changes for me, etc. I haven't fully let go of my ideal, and I am having trouble learning to love him as he is . . . I think because I'm afraid to lose it again.<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Excellent points...<BR>1. yes<BR>2. yes<BR>3. ? well?<P>What is love? God is love. Love is patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, does not delight in evil and all those things... I cannot possibly LOVE in this way without the love of God.<P>So, where does this leave me? Feeling a little more clear but still unmotivated... so I ponder, pray and wait on God.<P>THANKS as I'm out the door to go pick up H and 3 kids at the airport. H took them to California for the past five days to visit his family. It's time, time to make a change... changin' me! God help me - help us all!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Very Good Point FW thanks for posting that. <P>During my marriage I was in love with him just the way he was. Yes he had his faults as I did mine but I accepted those and moved ahead not longing for the ideal that would never be. I truely accepted him as he was. <BR>One day H announces that he misses the passion and feels we can never have it again. Doesn't care to try doesn't want to talk about it. He made contact with OW from 5 years ago saying that it was love at first sight with them. I take it that she is the one he thinks he can have undying passion with. There is no turning back for him at this point. This from the man who stated during premarriage counsel that he felt that there are times in marriage when you may not love the person you are married to but he did not feel that was a reason to throw away a long term marriage. Now, 11 yrs later he is doing exactly that!!! <BR>I have reminded him of this but he shrugs it off and says this is different. Guess what he really meant was as long as I don't have someone else to go to I will stay married.<P>I guess my feelings at this point are a defense mechanism. Trying to help myself cope with my loss. I do love my stbx but as for the sadness and grief, I think that is mainly for the loss of the stability of the relationship. It is not really the life without him that frightens me as much as life alone.

All,<P>How have you been enlightened?? I need to point my W in that direction if possible. I am the MALE end of your discussion. <P>Hoplessmom, to some degree I am similar to your H. My W has asked me the same question..."Why would I want to married to you?" Some of my qualities were definitely in the negative column...dishonesty, selfishness, unappreciative, irresponsible...to name a few. <P>I know at times my behavior was counterproductive...I think the hardest thing for my W was to realize was what you stated OvrCs, "it's a drag coming to the realization that I was in love with the idea of who the man could become and not who he is. Question is, can I now fall in love with him just as he is?" <P>It's time to search your soul. It's difficult to realize that you marriad a human. Guilty of making mistakes. Fallible. That is exactly how I accept my wife and I want her to see me this way as well.<P>Faithfulwife(CJ)I think your questions are loaded but definitely worthy of contemplation.<P>If those questions have any importance to you, I think you have the answer your searching for. Question #1 is about integrity and Faith. Question #2-Your level of commitment. OvrCs...I know question #3 sounds like you're selling your soul but your not. It's about compassion (for being dumb in my own case). I'm not sure how compassion has been translated to it's negative connotation. I have never considered compassion to be a sign of weakness. Q#3 also alludes to your perception-"It's not what you see that is important but how you see it." <P>It is not sacrificing and does not have to compromise your ideals. The qualities you want in your H can be a GOAL rather than the "be all,end all conclusion."<P>Totally cliche, but I am a work in progress...I wish I would have met my W later in life. I have grown alot over the past few months. I am sad that I have been judged, "juried"(sp?), and jailed without being able to claim insanity (or immaturity). <P>Faith, Integrity, Commitment, Compassion, Forgiveness very powerful traits.<P>DumbDumb <P>

DD... thanks for your points also. If my H would demonstrate his willingness to examine himself and change, then I might be able to demonstrate patience. But he suffers from the same list you had about yourself only I don't see that he is willing to look into how that impacts his relationships.<P>Besides, HE's the one wanting to sep/divorce and not me. I'm just coming to terms with the reality of his decisions - which by the way, he claims this is his decision based on my decisions for treating him the way I did for years. It's just one blame cycle... that I'm trying to break out of.<P>Thanks again!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Of course everyone is questioning what is love after being handed a spouse who doesn't want to work on the marriage.<BR>Love is meeeting his emotional needs and not love busting.<BR>Now, you can be a doormat for a short period of time, conceptually speaking, but you must also start somewhere, or else the marriage is a standoff. . . . .<P>However, keep in mind that Plan A for a period of time and Plan B is the only way YOU can bring the WS back to the marriage. <B> There is no other way for one to act because one CAN'T educate your WS, one can't FORCE your WS back, and one CAN'T argue / discuss your WS back. </B><P>Plan A is the SHOW WS your love and your attention to his emotional needs, and that is the only hope. It is the same as playing an OM/OW to your WS. remember, <B> two can play that game! </B><P>Everyone who waits for the WS to come to their senses BEFORE using Plan A is only continuing the prior behavior that the WS is running from. BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION, Plan A, demonstates that you are the best person you can be to the WS.<P><B> That is all that you can do, BUT THE ONLY ACTIONS YOU CAN DO! </B> other than file for divorce. However, that is protecting you from a financial disaster. If there is no financial disaster looming, why rush the filing process?<P>There are people here who have gotten their spouses back after 2 years, yes the relationship is different, but hey, so is growth, and so are you if you implement Plan A.<P><B> Think about it people! If you are fighting for your marriage, you should be on the Plan A board! not here! </B><P>

OvrCs-<P>Glad to hear you're trying to break the blame game. Maybe we should give your H my username . <P>Only a suggestion (and I don't even know if works yet). Demontrate a willingness to examine yourself first...model what you want your H to do. Find out your role , your contribution to the mess. <P>You alluded to it. You were, "...in love with the idea of who the man could become and not who he is." Soul search. What did want him to become? Why is that important to you? What does it say about you, your past etc? Be honest. When you find your answer have compassion for yourself. Forgive yourself.<P>It sucks...I had to see that I feared my own failure (rather than embrace success). Pardon the phrase, I looked at the a$$ end of things so to speak. (What do you get when you look at that end?? Sh*t!) How could I be so stupid?!! That's where compassion and forgiving emerge. It does not excuse all the negative behaviors but it does give freedom...it is a gift to myself. And it allows me to have compassion and forgiveness to others<P>I know it sounds like BS...it did for me too but it makes sense. The way I look at it...you have nothing to lose because you have already lost...with divorce, everyone is a loser.<P>DD

WhenIfindthetime,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There is no other way for one to act because one CAN'T educate your WS, one can't FORCE your WS back, and one CAN'T argue / discuss your WS back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought about it and this is hard for me to swallow. The way I look at Plan A is it's basically modeling...if that's right then you do have the power to educate your S right back to into your arms. It may not work that way but you <B>can</B> educate. <P>FORCE? No. ARGUE? No. Discuss back? Maybe -- if you model the right behaviors for a while.<P>DD<P><BR>HEY...the JM found out how to use UBB code!!Whoa!<BR>[This message has been edited by dumbdumb (edited May 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by dumbdumb (edited May 02, 2001).]

WIFTT and DD...<P>Thanks for your notes. I guess I'm feeling a little flat... like coke left out over night. I'm losing my fizz for this marriage because weekly (used to be daily) I'm reminded that H sees no hope for this marriage. Plan A has been formally in effect since January, 2001 - unofficially since Sept, 2000. I'm just running out of steam and feeling like I'm just becoming a door mat.<P>Maybe this is just a phase on the pendulum of life but hey, I've got to get the Oxygen mask on my own face before I will be of any assistance to my kids... right now, I feel like I too could use some distance. <P>I know that Plan A is not about cow-towing but that's how I feel. I AM examining myself, I feel like I've made huge mistakes in marriage and HAVE been on a six-eight month PLAN to remedy these behaviors that have been damaging. Still, H is on a steady course to his freedom. If I continue, I will crash... and THEN what good will I be to my own kids.<P>I'm going to wrestle with those questions a little more... I may not *feel* the love for my H like I used to... and this is what scares me because without it, where will my motivation come from? <P>DD, it is about perception... when I keep my eyes on the Lord, I do see my H through the eyes of Him. He's a saint in our Lord's eyes... it's just hard to look around horizontally and realize that hey, what am I doing and going to do in the "event of this emergency." What exactly does putting my own oxygen mask on really look like?<P>I know what Jesus says, "Be wise as serpant (shrewd, resilient and attentive) AND yet be gentle as a dove (caring, loyal and loving)."<P>Just dealing with the emotional roller coaster that many of us go through... I'll have to keep remembering, "treat him the way you yourself want to be treated..."<P>Thanks for all of your words... perseverance.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

OvrCs-<P>Last thought...promise! Perusing the MB BB's and wrote down a couple of notes from other posts and darn it if you didn't use verbage that was ideal for the point:<P> <B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...and feeling like I'm just becoming a door mat...I know that Plan A is not about cow-towing but that's how I feel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>(OK, I'm borrowing now because I forgot who posted it but I recall it came from one of the Harleys)..."Would you be a doormat for 3 months (6 mo) if you'd get $1 million at the end of the year." <P>You know this...relationships are HARD WORK! It may seem like your self-esteem can't handle it but what's the payoff?? You're resilient...you're self-esteem will make it.<P>DD<P>

DD... never apologize for your thoughts! Keep 'em coming and flowin'.<P>By the way... did you read what I said about putting the oxygen mask on so that you breath in order to be of ANY assistance to the other?<P>About your doormat analogy... I'm not sure I'd be alive to use the million bucks when Plan A is done. So, I'm just thinkin' of how to be gentle and yet wise...<P>Thanks again for caring enough to say your very best! I'm trying... <P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

In love with him? Which him? The old him? The one that treated you with respect and dignity? The one who didn't blame you for all of lifes problems? That's the man that I am still in love with. <P>The "new" him. He lies, he's cheated, he's blamed me, he's ruined his life finanacially.. Everything of course is someone elses fault. This is now a man who if we have even a slight disagreement walks out or hangs up and runs away. Is this what I want in a H? Would I tolerate this behavior from a friend? Not a chance. Why then should I tolerate this from a husband. I didn't choose to marry a weak inconsistant person. I married a fighter, someone who would respect and love me, not cheat and lie. <P>It has taken over 6 months to realize this.. I finally told him just this past week: "I have made some serious changes to my life, I have worked hard to live up to your expectations and improve myself as well. You on the other hand have done nothing. I no longer expect you to come back. I merely hope and pray that someday you realize what you have lost and what you are doing to your life..." There are so many people on this board who have helped me come to this realization. One has spoken such prolific words "Actions speak louder than words" (Jayhawk) It took me a while to actually take those words to heart, but they are so true. <P>So, I guess, The question you asked?? Do you love him or what he was? Is he willing to make the required changes? I agree with what someone said earlier along the lines of you have done everything possible and God will not hold you accountable if you choose to leave.. I will always love my husband. I will always love the way he made me feel. I however cannot continue to "want" to be with the man that he has become. I am worth so much more. All of us are. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com

I still have feelings for the girl I fell in love with and married. She's not the same person who is divorcing me. Her, I feel nothing for.<P>I do not miss her. I miss a companion, partner and playmate and hope someday to find one. But not her. She has effectively killed all the feelings I once had for her.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again