Well, I am just jumping in on this thread.<P>I too have a H who wants a divorce. After almost 14 years of marriage and 3 kids. My kids are 3,4,5. My H started his A when youngest was 1.5. I wish he would stand up and be a MAN but I doubt he knows what that means right now. He thinks what he is doing is the right thing to do, FOR HIMSELF. The kids will be fine. I'll be fine and He can be happy.<P>I too was told, I love you as a mother of my kids, as a person but I am just not in love with you. My story is so long and disgusting to me I can't repeat all the details. Needless to say, I filed for the divorce because he chose to "not work on the marriage any more". he forgot to tell me that is what we were doing. LOL I don't want a divorce, still don't but have been forced to continue with proceedings to protect myself and my kids. I am SAHM and H left 4 weeks ago to move in with OW #2 and only pays the mortgage. I had to borrow $ from my mom to survive. I will be taking him to court shortly. he thinks I am the one being nasty. <P>A part of me will always "not believe" what is happening but it really is happening and I can not stop it. <P>I really wish some MAN (that's right, i said MAN, not boy) would TELL my H that he is disgusting, selfish, piggy, not a man, immoral, etc. Most men(generalization) are afraid to stand up and say what they really feel about what a horrible thing he is doing. I am sure it wouldn't matter to him but then again, maybe it would because I am sure no one said the truth. Just tried to "reason" with an irrationale person.<P>Hopelessmom

I'm glad I gave my h the "*****-slap" of reality this morning. Too many people have been telling him what a rational guy he is and how this was all for the best and how good he was to me. I've decided no more pulling punches, I'm tired and he's refusing to face the truth. He is doing something immoral and disgusting, he has treated the person who stood beside him through the rough times like a piece of dog dirt on his shoe he can't wait to scrape off, and he's running away like a scared little boy instead of facing his problems. <BR>My marriage is over but he's going to hear the truth from someone and it might as well be the person who knows him best.<BR>*Hugs to all in this thread*

Hopelessman..<P>I am sorry to hear your story. I would enjoy being the REAL MAN to tell your husband what a horrible thing he is doing to you and your children. His behavior is very similar to my situation in which my wife is telling me the same line of BS as he is doing to you. Somehow, he needs to break ALL Contact with the other women in his life and concern himself only with matter relating to you and his family. <P>ATTENTION ALL WS!! ITS TIME TO WAKE UP AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY IN YOUR RELATIONSHIPS! <P>I wish you the best of luck! Take Care.<P>Bryan<P>------------------<BR>BJK

positivebryan,<P>I'll start from the top of the responses and work my way down to try to answer all the questions.. <P>The qualilties that led to the decision to get married to him were mainly that I liked doing things with him. He wasn't that bad to talk to, and we seemed like a good couple. I admit that these aren't strong reasons, but one can convince oneself that such reasons are valid. Looking back to the time before the marriage, it seems like it was more of a marriage of convenience. Many reasons for the convenience, mostly for the living together aspect. I didn't marry the perfect guy, and I was aware of that at the time. I didn't go into the marriage with delusions of 'I can change him', or with rose colored glasses. Maybe I thought that my reasons were enough, though lukewarm.<P>A question about the benefits vs the responsibilities of marriage: what do you define as the responsibilities of marriage? Are you referring to the money management? Or familiy planning? Something else? The benefits of marriage I would assume to mean the company of each other. I'm not attacking, I'm just confused as to what the term refers to.<P>To answer some of Jayhawk's Q's...<BR>I don't think I ever had the spark for my husband. It was a lukewarm sort of thing. <BR>I have shared these issues with my H, and we have talked about them a lot over the past month. He is quite understanding and calm about it. He even remarked about how surprised he is with himself on how unemotional he is about it. He indicated that he didn't have that spark either when we got married. There needs to be more discussion on where he stands on this issue, but he has indicated that the sister element seems to be present. <BR>Did you (all) have the spark when you got married to your W's?<P>I think if the spark were there a lot of things would be different. I do understand the concept of mature love, but should marriage partners feel more than just sisterly-brotherly love? Is that enough for a marriage? I just don't know at this point.<P>positivebryan..<BR>I, like Jayhawk's ex, didn't get to live on my own and learn about life. I have always had it too easy. It seems that a lot of my life has been defined by other people. Or what I like has been defined by other people. I think that my H was also the result of what kind of guy my parents would approve of. I don't know if the not-living-on-one's-own-thing is relevant, but it would contribute to the immaturity of some people. Perhaps if I had lived on my own, I would have known myself well enough to know more about what I wanted/needed out of life instead of what everyone else thought I needed.<P>So where does this lead to? I know this is a very sensitive issue and I'm not taking it lightly. Nor am I rushing my decision. Of course I take a long time to make up my mind, expecially on heavy issues. I am still trying to decide whether a separation for a period of time would help or not. <BR>I realize that our situations may be different on a more detailed level, but does any of this help somewhat or sound similar to what you may be hearing from your W?<P>Anyways, I realize that more discussions are needed with H. Please tell me more about your situation. Were there other reasons for splitting up? Were you fighting? Are you separated right now? Does she still speak to you? <P>Ook<P>ps I'll try to keep newer answers a bit shorter.. <P>

Ook....<P>Thanks again for writing back! When I mentioned Responsibility, I was referring to each spouse doing everything they can to meet the emotional needs of their spouse. I understand the idea that you may have not been ready for marriage to your husband, but you must try to search yourself to really understand why you are feeling this way right now! <P>In my situation, I have always made meeting my wifes emotional needs one of my top priorities in our relationship. We have stressed many times the importance of being totally honest and open with each other. When I discovered her affair, She told me that she was very unhappy for reason that she couldn't explain to me. This situation was very hard to deal with because she didn't come to me when she was feeling depressed to talk to me about her feelings, she just let them build within and the results were very damaging to her and our marriage. <P>Please read about the " love bank " on this site. Dr. Harley has great insite on this issue. How is your husband depositing "love units" into your love bank and how are you doing the same to his "love bank". <P>Do you have any children? <P>Take Care and keep positive!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

Ook,<P>OK, now it is my turn First my story is just the same as Shawn's and Bryan's. And like Shawn, I am now divorced. I could go back and say almost everything shawn has because they are my exact thoughts. Instead I would like to tell a little story about first hand experience with this "in-love" thing.<P>I knew my wife about 4 years before we got married. We dated exclusively from the time we met. She is now 27 and I am 30. We would have been married 5 years next month. About a year and a half into our marriage, my life took on some changes. I quit my fulltime job to start my own business and my wife decided to go back to college. <P>At that time, money became very tight and things got rough. I have always been very close to my high school friends, and now as I was struggling over bills and mortgage payments, I watched as they went "out" and had no cares in the world. Over a period of a few months, I now can say that I entered into a depression - not a serious one, just enough that I lost my "feelings". Kind of like everything was just OK - nothing great, nothing bad.<P>Unfortunately this feeling extended to my wife as well. While I did a good job of hiding it from her, I began having doubts about my love - our love together. She was almost the perfect wife at the time. This made me very confused. I knew when we met, we were in love, but now I did not know what was going on. But I believed in our love and I believed in the vows I made, and I knew that feelings change. And just how my feelings changed now, they could change back again. I just had "faith".<P>But more than just "having faith" I realized that the best way to feel love was to show love. And that is just what I began to do. At first it felt "fake", like I was pushing myself to show love, but after a couple months something amazing happened - it was like a cork was released from a bottle and all the loving feelings I once had not only came back, they came back multiplied. The spark was back.<P>I guess what I am trying to say is that I have felt like you before (and like my wife felt). I don't know if it is maturity or what, I just looked at marriage as more of a commitment. It is kind of strange in today's society, but "yes" I would stay together with a person who I felt "sisterly love" with IF we were married. Because of the commitment I made to her. Not a promise, not an agreement, but a commitment. How could I say this? Because I truly believe that if I loved a woman enough to marry her and for some reason that love was lost, I have full faith that as long as I remained faithful to my vows and began to really contribute to the marriage and the relationship, the feelings of "in love" would return.<P>I offer you a few suggestions but of course it is up to you whether or not you follow through on them:<P>1) Don't wait, don't walk - RUN to counseling. Both you and your husband.<BR>2) If you don't feel "in love", try loving him even more. Just try it for a month or two - see what happens. Sure at first it might seem like you are trying to hard, but give it a chance.<BR>3) Take divorce off the table - don't even consider it and see what happens. Look for a solution that does not entail leaving...<BR>4) and finally, if you have God in your life, now is the time to pray. Pray hard and pray long. Pray for His love to come to you and flow through you. Pray for Him to show you what He wants you to do. <BR>Then listen to His answers - They may not be the ones you are looking for, but He will provide the answer.<P>You need to know that you will inflict pain and hurt on your husband, probably beyond anything he has ever felt. I am not saying that to proclude you from leaving and to say you should stay out of guilt, rather I am just telling you the simple truth. Many people will tell you that "you are both young and you have so much to look forward to, so if you don't want to be married anymore, end it now". But I would like to turn it around a little bit and say:<BR>"you are both young and should be in no hurry to get anywhere, fast. You both made commitments to each other. You both now see there are problems in your marriage. Use this time to work on your marriage - give it your all. Try your hardest. The easy way out would be to divorce without trying. If after you have dedicated 150% to trying to fix your marriage and you still feel the same, then maybe a divorce is the answer. But make sure you give yourselves enough time to try and save it."<P>How much is enough time? To me, at least 6 months but that is just my opinion.<P>Know that my response is biased - I was the one who was "left". But I am not bitter. I love my wife even today. She hurt me more than I have ever been hurt before in my life. But I have forgiven her. Even after all that, I still believe in love and in marriage. I just think we need to stop "listening" to society and to return to a time when a promise was a promise and a vow meant "for life", not until our feelings change...<P>God Bless you and your husband,<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

sotired 2000...<P>Mike...<P>I just wanted to say that I think you are an AWESOME PERSON! Your post to Ook was FABULOUS! I totally agree with the concept of love in a marriage and how sometimes "feelings" along with a thoughtless society get in the way of people restoring their love for each other in the wonderful bond of marriage! Please write back when you can. Your posts are always AWESOME! <P>Question for you. When you first discovered your wife's affair with the OM, did she ever withdraw intimacy with you because she was in the fog? I am going through this stage and my wife continues to tell me that she is still very attracted to me but has no desire for intimacy with me, it has been this way for 6 months now! Any advice?<P>Thanks Again.<P>You are a great guy!<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

Bryan,<P>First a little clarification - I still do not know if my wife had an affair. I mean I am pretty sure there was an emotional affair going on near the end before she moved out, but I don't know if it got physical or not.<P>As far as the intimacy goes, yes things were much different. Added into this whole mess was the fact that my wife was sexually assaulted in college and sometime much earlier in her life. While I expressed my feelings that she go to talk to someone about it BEFORE we got married - I found out that she never did. So needless to say she has some unresolved issues with intimacy which she still will not accept or face.<P>But as Ook mentioned in her post, as a woman's feelings for her partner change and dull, the thought of sexual relations becomes hard to imagine, much less do. One of the things I have learned throughout this whole mess is just how different most women view sex than most men. Basically a man can have sex then feel love, while a woman must feel love before she can have sex. Now this isn't an absolute, but it is a general guideline.<P>And as you hint around to, if a spouse is in fact having an affair with someone else, (and they have somewhat of a conscience)chances are they will avoid having physical contact with their spouse at all costs. Plus their needs are being satisfied outside of the marriage, so there is little need left for their spouse to fulfill anyway.<P>Bottom line is to not let the sex (or lack thereof) become an issue right now - It will only add more pressure to an already tense situation. I put pressure on my wife because I felt that once we became intimate again, things would be fine. Wrong! It only made things worse because she felt pressured into doing it - what a mistake.<P>The best thing you can do right now is to try and relieve the pressures you and your wife may be feeling. The easiest and quickest way for "you" to do that, is to begin focusing on yourself. I don't mean become selfish - rather you need to work on who you are as a person. The harder you try to hold onto your wife, the further and faster she will run away. There is a great book called "Love Must Be Tough" by Dr. Dobins I think. Get it. You can probably read through it in one sitting. While many of the case studies are on couples whos situations are much different than ours, the basic premise of the book I believe is a sound one. You need to be open to your wife, but also to make her feel "free", while at the same time you need to present yourself as a challenge to her - giving her a reason to want you and your marriage.<P>I only wish I had read it before we separated, because everything he said NOT to do, I unknowingly did. Would it have saved my marriage if I read it sooner - hard to say, but it would have helped me see things from a different perspective.<P>Put simply, if you want to save your marriage, you need to "sell" your wife on the thought of remaining married to you. Try thinking back to what first attracted her to you - are you still that same person? What could you do to get back to that person? And take it from me, although woman always say they want a sensitive man, be as strong as you can when it comes to crying around your wife. This is coming from a 6'2" 220 lb man, who last year was reduced to tears more times than I care to remember. The worst part about it was watching my wife's face as tears came down mine, it was so obvious that she had begun to pity me (which made me feel even worse).<P>Finally, we as men are always looking for quick fixes - "Fix it and move on to the next problem". THIS IS NOT A QUICK FIX situation. If you try radical changes in yourself and use them to try and convince your wife to stay - it WON'T work. Begin thinking longterm. Know that if you want to save your marriage it is going to take time - a looonnnnngggg time for that to happen. Once you get yourself in that mindset, it will help you to NOT put any additional pressure on yourself and your wife.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hi Mike..<P>I have tried to be very patient with my wife during our recovery. I sometimes have a difficult time thinking that I am putting in 100% of the effort into rebuilding our marriage and she is only giving 30% if that! I agree with you take about crying in front of your wife, I have felt the same "pity" stare from her when I discovered her affair with the OM.<P>At this point, I am tired of walking on eggshells in this relationship. I am tired of her waffling and second guessing our marriage and her love for me and I am tired of being treated like I am just around to "pay the bills". <P>It seems like the betrayed spouses have to everything and more just to keep the relationship together. I think this is TOTALLY BOGUS, especially when you wife tells you that you have done nothing wrong in the marriage, but still doesn't want to seek counseling. <P>Relationships are never easy, but my situation is unbearable at times. I cannot help my wife if she isn't willing to help our relationship together by getting the counseling that we both need. <P>I am sorry for my attitude right now, but I needed to vent today! <P>Thanks for writing!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

Bryan,<P>The ironic part about counseling with my wife and me was that I was 100% against going. I only went because she had gone a couple times and she asked me to go because it would help "her". It was easier going the first time when I thought it was for "her" and not me. But it only took one session for me to realize just how much I could learn from counseling. In fact I KEPT going long after she stopped and even more so after she moved out.<P>So maybe think about going by yourself. There is nothing wrong with it at all. Just be sure to ask around and find a good counselor. For me, our counselor was a family psychologist - I love psychology in school and was waiting for him to "diagnose us" and start in with the "psycho babble", but he never did - rather it was like having a good friend to talk to - someone that could offer insight about why things were happening...<P>Once you start going, then ask your wife to go with you, "for you" not because "she" needs to go. Is it a little manipulative, yes. But if it gets you both there, then maybe it is worth it.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Ook-<BR>I am a woman who has felt exactly what you have felt. And eventually my marriage fell apart against my wishes. I married my H when I was 25, he was 22. We were togehter for three years and married for three before he left. Unlike you, I lived on my own, went to college, and had lots of experiences. My ex lived with his parents before he lived with me. <P>I became dissilusioned with the marriage at one point and began to feel that I had made a terrible mistake. I was unhappy, depressed, lonely, and very dissapointed. Much of that was from me, I understand now. But it made me pull away from my ex in the most terrible way. I "kept a cold house" in many ways. I wasn't attracted to him, didn't want to open up to him, didn't trust him with my feelings. I wanted to be alone and find someone with whom there was a spark. I even questioned the reality of our early love. Eventually, he grew lonely from the cold and found someone else and he now questions the reality of our connection. <P>Some people say that hindsight is 20/20. I really think it is half blind in some cases. We see things through time's distorted glasses. Your lack of love for your h, or spark as you put it, is not unreal. It is very real. I do not doubt that. There may have actually been a spark that you cannot remember right now because you are so doubtful. Do not give up yet. Get to counseling, and fast.

Sotired 2000..<P>Thanks Mike..I appreciate your opinions. I will look into counseling this week and get that book you recommended!<P>Take Care<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

gsd..<P>Thank you for your message. I am looking into counseling this week. <P>Thanks and Take Care..<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

Wow this is not sounding to good. I really hope someone will post on this thread with the exact same story as it seems many of us are living or have lived - that had a positive outcome. I can't help but want to cry at all these similar stories to my own. I am less than encouraged by all the negative outcomes to the big "D". My W of 17 years has been gone as of May 1st also in big denial & blaming me for her never having loved me. Oh well maybe we are to dependant on these women & that in the long run is what this is all about - standing alone stronger & better than before.<P>---------------------------------------------<BR>Ook,<P>Can't help but notice that the connection you feel to this thread is with guys still madly in love with W. If your connection is to this thread than there is much hope for your marriage as it would seem that your H loves you to & that is a pretty good start - you may need more work in the spark Vs fire departmet - but please for all the H on this thread don't give up, give it to God!<P>May the Son keep you Warm & Safe Tonight & every Night,<P> <P>------------------<BR>StarCrossed<p>[This message has been edited by starcrossed (edited May 08, 2001).]

Thanks<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

SC,<P>I know what you mean about wanting to hear from someone with a positive outcome to situations like ours. Either they are few and far between, or they are just not shared. Maybe in a forum entitled, "Divorcing/Divorced" we shouldn't come to expect many positive outcomes within these marriages? It's a sad thought, but it would appear that most of us out here are either already divorced or very close to it.<P>I really do hope that Ook does take your advice to heart. <P>Take care.<BR>

I can not help but wonder if we are all doing this wrong. It seems with all we do the end result is a WS who believes we are just trying to control them and these situations (& they may not be wrong). I have heard much talk and have advised it myself often (quite recently in fact) about turning it over to the Lord. Has anyone actually really truly surrendered these problems in full to the One who really can make a difference?<P>If I get flamed so be it, but my intentions are care & concern for all of you that I have read much about & prayed on for many, many, nights. The advice here for those just starting out & those who have not reached this point yet is invaluable. The advice for those of us who are here now seems to late. I have been struggling with the sorrow & unhappy ever after endings I keep reading about here with more newbies posting everyday. I have decided to not give up but to try to walk closer to God & trust his will & "not my own". All I have done, all I have tried seems to me that the end result will be friendship at best with the woman I will always love.<P>Our Lord hates divorce! My W may possibly hate me right now! I am the monkey in the middle of this equation! Do I trust that I can make a difference by reading books & listening to wise yet worldly advice from those (sorry) who feel my pain & have been there? Or, can I if He lets me bow out of this equation & trust He who brought us together to begin with? Am I the only one who believes that my W was a gift from God? <P>I am sorry if I have offended but this is painful to know all the H on this thread in such a way. <P>---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Ook, <BR>Again I plead with you on behalf of your H its not to late for you. This forum is meant for "you" there is good advice to reconnect if you "don't give up". Don't say yes to the whole package just say yes to today! <P><BR>God Bless,<BR>Tim<BR>

starcrossed..<P>Thanks for your message. Your take on the issue is right! The Lord does hate divorce and we should look for him to lead us in the right direction with our marriages. You certainly did not offend me with your opinions!<P>Thank You!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

Good Luck & God Bless Bryan I hope from my soul you will like me & many, many, more have your Happy Ever After again . . .<P>Ook,<P>Is it oh ok or just ook, strange sign on what does it mean?<BR>Are you OK? I can't help but feel that your situation is of importance to this thread. Don't be discouraged, for to me you may be much like mine & many other W related to this thread - Ook I have never seen your sign-on before - hope to see you more in the future. God Blessed you & your H once, May He Bless you & your H again. <P>With Hope & Prayer,<BR>Tim

Tim..<P>Thank You very much! I appreciate it! KEEP POSITIVE!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK