This is the third time I've had to type this because I am so upset, I keep accidentally deleting it! I hope this one goes, because I can't do this again!<P>Oh BOY do I need your help and advice . . . I can't see straight! Last night my H and I were talking, and we were doing what I call "chit chat", which is data exchange, scheduling, and who said what to whom at work. You know, surface talk. Anyway, when we got to what I perceived to be the end of our "chit chat", I told him that I had a problem. I want to talk to him on a deeper, more intimate level, and yet it seemed to me that we were not scheduling or making adequate time for deeper talks. At first, his response was, "What would make you happy?" so I told him that I would enjoy talking about our relationship, talking about MB principles, filling in the MB questionnaires, looking at Dr. Phil's book together, discussing personality type stuff, and talking about the Recovering Couples principles (like AA for couples in recovery). Well, his response was TOTALLY unforeseen and TOTALLY wiped me out. It was a MAJOR, MAJOR, MAJOR, MAJOR lovebuster (LB) for me. MAJOR!!! He said (and I'll quote as accurately as possible here), "Oh that is a bunch of psychobabble, mumbo jumbo. I don't believe in any of that crap. I won't do us any good anyway, and I thought all that was behind us now. I only told you that in the beginning to make you shut up about it already." Can you hear my heart deflating?<P>OH MY GOD. I can't believe it! I don't know what to think! One of the major reasons I agreed to try reconciling is because he told me he was willing to do whatever was necessary to rebuild our relationship. He SAID and ACTED like he believed in the marriage building techniques and thought they were valuable. THIS WHOLE RECOVERY IS BUILT ON LIES!!! I have no way of knowing how much of the other stuff that I depended on and believed in was also just lies to shut me up. <P>Okay, well after this nifty revelation, I feel like my head was spinning. We did keep on talking some after that, but I have to be honest and say that I have no idea what we talked about--I felt like I was reeling. I started to try to say something--but I got as far as "After the past few nights and our arguments and things, my intention tonight was to just clam up and close off and withdraw from you . . ." and OH MY GOD. He just ripped into me and tore me to shreds. I can't think of any other words for it. He called me names (like Queen ***** and crazy and illogical); he told me that no one could ever please me; he accused me of threatening to leave the marriage and pushing his buttons; he told me I was selfish and self-centered, demanding and controling; he told me my ideas about marriage were immature and foolish. On and on like that for about 15 minutes, just ranting and raving and saying the most awful things until I was literally in tears.<P>After 15 minutes, it seemed like his energy was expended, (I just stayed in my chair, while he had paced back and forth and stuff). HOW IN THE WORLD AM I SUPPOSED TO RESPOND TO THAT? I will try to quote as accurately as possible, "Your response to me sucks. I do not deserve to be treated like that and neither does anybody. I will not be held responsible for your projecting your problems onto me, and most of what you accused me of, I never even said or implied or thought. It is not acceptable for you to yell at me like that, and I will not accept that from you anymore. Right now, I do not know what to say to you, and I don't want to talk at all anymore." He responded to this by saying, "Okay, I'm sorry, so now you can either forgive me or hold it against me forever. " He really sounds apologetic and repentant, doesn't he?<P>Anyway, I TOLD him, "What I was GOING to say to you is, 'After the past few nights and our arguments and things, my intention tonight was to just clam up and close off and withdraw from you, but I don't want that. I want to be able to talk to you and share myself. I want to be more than just roommates--I want to intimately know each other. But the way things are going now, something inside of me is dying. My desire to take the risk and open up to you is just withering away and I can literally feel myself withdrawing from you. Please don't ignore this. Please notice that something in me is just dying--don't let it die.' " After that, he said, "Well my need for talking is being fulfilled so why do I need to worry?" My GOD, if that is really his attitude, "my needs are being met so what do I care", then this is how in the name of God am I supposed to explain to him that as a husband, he should show some interest in meeting MY needs? This is unbelievable! <P>Last night I laid in bed all night literally shaking. Like BrambleRose said, I'm not sure if there is even a marriage here to rebuild. Even today, I am barely getting through the day and I still feel all swirled up and like a mess inside. Here's what I need your advice on, and please be brutally honest--did I really miss the boat here? Or is there something dramatically wrong with this scenario?<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<B>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</B><P>CJ, you two need to get in to see a counselor. Right now. And I mean a counselor who believes in saving marriages. (not all of them do).<P>Hang on girl. Hang on....<P>You are in my thoughts & prayers Cindy. Please see a counselor....<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

CJ,<P>Your H sounds like my ex.<P>Someone today said something to me that might help you... let me try to articulate it.<P>I am divorced and involved with another man -- in fact, I am engaged. I moved far away from my ex (there's a whole story to that, but I won't go there right now, not important to the story).<P>This aquaintance thinks I should go back to my ex-H and makes no bones about that. <P>I told him, as I have told everyone who will listen, that my ex would NOT work on the marriage while I was there... only now that I've actually left him has he given any indication that he truly wants to work on it. (Although he still has the OW he was with last, his fifth).<P>Inadvertantly, this friend says, I Plan B'd my ex. By leaving. Only now does he know what it's like without me there taking care of all that stuff I took care of.<P>I am wondering, at this point, if you shouldn't possibly go into a Plan B.<P>What do you think??<P>I only say this because I have been where you are... I spent half of 1999 in the fetal position, losing 100 pounds (needed, but not that way), and crying my eyes out over the H who continued to hurt and, to be honest, crush my spirit. <P>I would never suggest anything but Plan A in the past... but this friend made a very valid point.<P>So, whatya think about this? I may be blowing smoke out of my @$$, and if so, tell me. I would never want to steer you wrong.<P>(((((CJ)))))<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

But when you can't try any more.<P>When you can't take the pain any more.<P>Then you can let go, and know that you did all you could CJ.<P>And no matter what. It was enough. Even if it didn't work out the way you wanted it to.<P><BR>Hugs & stuff (stole from Bumper)<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}<P>H*ly ****!! You are a patient woman...hats off.<P>I agree...Plan B. (But I wouldn't have a problem if you gave H walking papers). <P>Work on yourself...it's all you can do!<P>DD <BR>(from your gr8 st8)

Sheryl,<P>Plan B, huh? Well, I will have to give this serious consideration. As luck would have it, I have planned a night to go teach a client some restaurant bookkeeping tricks by myself tonight, so I should be able to think and think and think while I drive up to Boulder. <P>I don't know if you know my whole entire story, but I pretty strongly relate to spending almost a whole year crying my eyes out over a man who damaged and crushed my spirit. It seems like it's heading down that path again, and I am scared to death that I am not strong enough to take that again. <P>Well, I shall give some serious thought to your advice--thanks!<P><BR>Dumbdumb, <P>What can I say--ROFLMAO! You make me laugh. I laugh because of the way you write (holy "cow" and such), but also because of the walking papers comment--I haven't heard it called that in years.<P>Anyway, I will give strong consideration to Plan B, but I really need to turn my attention to working on myself. The trouble is, I feel like even if I were to attain perfection and be the perfect wife (which I never will), there must be TWO people working on the relationship and I don't see that happening!<P><BR>Last but not least, Nick. You are one of my best friends, bud. I take your hugs straight to my heart and hang on by my fingernails. Okay? See ya tomorrow.<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Oh CJ, (((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))))<P>Maybe it's not you and I are that are separated twins...its our husbands. I could have written your post VERBATIM about my H. Your posts are so eerie to me. I couldn't help crying when I read your post. I <B>know</B> exactly where you are at.<P>You do need to see Steve Harley ASAP. I would be willing to bet that Steve's advice to you will be the same as it was to me: Plan B.<P>But you don't have to do it until YOU are ready.<P>CJ, if you want, email me, I'll send you my phone number. We have a great deal in common, but I am praying for your sake that the end to our stories isn't the same!!!<P>I'm at bramblerose_mb@yahoo.com<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

FW,<P>I know what motivates you for reconciliation...but what motivates H? I fear by his treatment of you and comments it's guilt. And maybe only guilt?<P>I liken your situation (to use your AA analogy) to hitting rock bottom. You'll know when you've gotten there...when you can't lie to yourself anymore and you finally can see the truth of it. It can be rock bottom for your marriage - if both of you see this and then work to climb out of it together...BUT, it can also be just rock bottom for you...when you just can't take another minute. Fetal position crying for 2 days did it for me. No one has the right to make me feel that badly! I took charge of ME first and foremost from that point.<P>I'm not advocating giving up, necessarily, but maybe, instead of plan B even...it's time for Plan "Me" (meaning you ). Focus on CJ only...and if he comes around - wonderful, but if he doesn't - you will have already started the climb out of the pit.<P>Hang in there...it's bound to be a bumpy ride.<P>Lisa (aka Soon2b)<BR>

Hi... I'm with Lisa. At this point, you need to apply the Rule of Protection. If he lied to get to this point, on what grounds did he think of rebuilding the marriage? I just can't imagine WHAT he is thinking? <P>Anyway, remove yourself to do some serious soul searching... just as you asked me to do. How can you protect yourself and start rebuilding your life. I don't know how you'd implement a Plan B but if it's for saving the last shred of emotion or love you have for your H it's absolutely essential.<P>Prayers my dear... pray the Lord's prayer over and over asking emphatically, <I>THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH</I>... ya know? I just do not know what else to say... sorry for your pain. Stand in it though... don't run like you said you're tempted to do. Stand and trust ...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Ok CJ. Here's a shot across the bow.<P>Complacency Su&ks.<P>Your H is back into the grove of what was causing the problem in the first place. He thinks he's home so thing can go back to the way they were. He's back on familiar territory I guarantee you he will act like this until you bust his A#$, or wake him up to the fact. <P>I was thinking this in my own regard just yesterday. If the wife came back to me it may be great for the time being maybe 2-3 weeks, but I know it would turn right back into the same old he!! Hole. <P>Complacency. My dear. Beware. <P>Tex.<BR>

CJ, just checking in to see how you are doing.<P>I have another long day of sitting in front of this computer ahead of me - so I'll be checkin back!!<P>A couple of things I've been thinking about...<P>I wasn't able to step off the rollercoaster of sheer agony until I was able to recognize, AND accept that my H was incapable of participating in our marriage.<P>One thing that Marriage Builders helped me with (and why I am still here getting divorce support on a marriage board! ) is that I was able to finally see what a marriage SHOULD look like. And mine didn't even have any hope of becoming like that, because my H was not willing or even capable of participating or holding up his end of the bargain.<P>In my case, its his disease of alcoholism that he chooses to ignore, that provides an impenetrable wall btwn him and I. I can't possibly say if your H is just being selfish and childish for the moment, or if there's something more significant thats at work....but I know that H and I have had those identical conversations over and over and over.<P>A good defense is always a strong offense. And your H managed to put you on the defensive the second it looked like you might be requesting that he change something.<P>Something to remember:<P>People don't change unless they hit rock bottom with their behavior. Rock bottom is always a different place for different people - so we can't ever know what it is that will cause someone to change. But the thing that I remind myself of is this:<P>Change occurs when: The Pain of Staying the Same becomes <B>greater</B> than the Pain of Change.<P>So Tex's comments about complacency are right on target. Your H is comfortable, why should he change? <P>Now I am not saying that you should make him uncomfortable to force him to change. I'm just pointing out that its not likely that he will change without hitting that bottom.<P>So you put the focus back on yourself - and caring for your needs, setting your own boundaries and treating yourself with dignity and respect. <P>The boundaries that you draw to care for yourself will have consequences for your H. Maybe he will be affected enough to wake up, but maybe not. You can't know. That's why you have to be really ready, and understand exactly why and what you are doing with Plan B - if you decide to go through with it. You have to be doing it to take care of you, not to force him to hit bottom and change.<P>Anyway, now I'll hop down off my soapbox!! I've been thinking about you, and I'll check back to see how you are doing!<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))<P>Oh, Sister. I am so sorry to hear all this. <P>There is nothing further you can do by yourself. I vote for counseling to help you sort out what you want/need. If h will go too, that would be helpful.<P>As much as I want you to succeed in rebuilding your marriage, you do not deserve a man who talks to you that way. And if he won't work on the marriage at all, it won't be long before you'll be too exhausted to care for yourself or your children.<P>I wish I could wave a magic wand and cure the situation. But I don't. So, I can't. But I can pray for you. And for Mark. And for your children. Because I know this must be tough on them too.<P>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))<P>

((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))<P>I was looking for something to share with you, and this is one I like:<P>Mode ani lefanecha, melech chi vikayom, shehechetzarta bi nishmati, bechemela raba emunasecha.<P>Translation: "I gratefully thank You O living and eternal King, for You have returned my soul within me with compassion abundant is Your faithfulness!"<P>What does it all mean? Well to be brief, when we go to sleep at night, a part of us goes to Hashem. This part is called the soul. Since the body is now relaxed and asleep, the soul is free to go back from where it came. When we open our eyes in the morning, we Thank Hashem for having returned our soul so that we can have another day.<BR>Whatever happend yesterday does not matter any more, today is a brand new day and we are ready to start new and do good. This is what we should be thinking when we say the Mode Ani. <P>CJ, my friend, just stay strong and know that you are giving this your all. No matter what the outcome, YOU have not failed and you should be proud of the effort you have put forth.<P>Hugs and best wishes <P>Just in case you are interested, this page is really insightful, although it is directed toward the children... <A HREF="http://www.foreveryjew.com/child.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.foreveryjew.com/child.html</A>

CJ,<P>Can you refresh my memory as to how you got to recovery? Did OW leave your H? Did H leave OW? Did he chose YOU over HER? I'm just curious as to why he'd lie just to get back together and then come out and say those things.<P>I told you before, my ex and I worked our recovery out years ago. But the key was that he did work hard and tell the truth.<P>As luck will have it, I may be in a recovery of my own soon and I don't look forward to it. But either way what I chose, will be to heal myself more than anything. <P>How long have you been in this recovery officially? Please don't take this wrong, but maybe your trying a little too hard and he's taking it that he can't do anything to please you. I know the need for conversation, TRUST ME, I know. But sometimes, its also good to spend quiet times together. You two should be having some sort of fun and good times, or you're only going to focus on the bad. And also, trust and deep conversations, those are going to take a long time before you might get there. <P>It doesn't mean you can't work on recovery. <P>I don't see how you can Plan B if your living together, and also, thats meant for after a really good Plan A. Which after what you've mentioned, I don't know if thats the best terms to enter to Plan B.<P>But if you are going to keep this fight up, try to figure yourself out, and not get so deep into conversation. Learn to lighten it up a little and be sure you two are experiencing something positive each day. Even if its that you hug and kiss each morning and before bed. Or that you eat dinner together and "chit chat". <P>Also, do you know what his primary needs are, and do you feel you are meeting those as well?<P>I hope you find some peace and strength. I'm sorry that he is speaking to you that way and you deserve better. But sometimes what I experienced before in recovery was even more sacrifice than what I see in Plan A at times. I know realistically we'd like our ws or our betrayer to fight for our forgiveness, to do all it takes, but maybe he just doesn't have it in him right now. I wish I knew if he is in withdrawal as I write this, it makes a big difference.<P>Hugs, Dana<P><BR>

(((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))<P>I wish you would have never heard those words last night! They cut like a knife, didn't they?<P>Take good care of CJ, ok? You ARE a wonderful person! Looks like you are getting plenty of good advise, so I'll just pop in and let you know I'm here for you! <P>Ragamuffin<P>P.S. One more thing, PLEASE seek marriage counseling......turn all of those rocks over......<BR>

Ok, here I go...deeeeep breathe.....<P>First - I am not sticking up for your husband on this one so don't take this the wrong way. From what you conveyed in your message, my "guy" brain sent up some red flags. To begin with, your husband sounds like he falls into many of the "guy" stereotypes that are so prevailent with woman. (and which by the way are often true). The bottom line is most men don't like to talk a lot and talking about emotional stuff is often the worst. Even I at times had problems (big problems) wanting to talk about "us" with my wife.<P>I think it goes to the fact that women solve problems through verbal means, while men handle issues quietly. Again it is not right either way, we are just different. Here is one possible view on what happened:<P>You and your husband were talking about this and that, maybe some work stuff (you two work together right?)... There were probably some things that needed to be "solved" in that conversation. There may have been an item or two that caused your husband to remember something that he forgot to do, or reminded him of a problem at work... While talking through all this stuff, he may have gotten a little stressed, even though his manuerisms did not show it. Now the little talk may have "tired" him out mentally and it was the end of the day. He may have wanted to relax and just "forget" about everything for a while [Something I know many/most guys need to do - Do your really think that when watching a baseball game or NASCAR that we are focusing on what is being shown on the screen the whole time? No way! We are probably a million miles away - but I digress...].<P>Now you caught him off guard - here he thought you were done talking for the night, but now you wanted to talk about something even more serious. Is it right for you to want to talk about it? Most certainly. But the timing may have not been right for your husband. Sooooo, like so often guys do, a good way to NOT talk is to become irrational and say hurtful things. Sure the woman will get upset, but she will stop talking (which in our sometimes greedy minds is what we want - I know it sounds bad, but it is only the truth). Unfortunately, men don't really understand that when you say hurtful things to a woman, those words linger for long periods of time. If I say something mean to a friend, he'll usually come right back at me, or punch me in the shoulder or just laugh. After a couple minutes it is gone and forgotten - honestly. But I know that my wife still remembers things I said to her (not even on purpose) that hurt her, from 9 years ago. It amazes me.<P>So to quickly summarize, I think that maybe it was just the wrong time for your husband to talk. You can't make someone talk when they are not ready to. If you do, you will most often hear things that you did not want to hear in the first place. Are the things he said true? I am not sure. But you can't be positive they were. Sure there needs to be cooperation in a relationship - sometimes men need to listen and talk when they don't want to, but also sometimes women need to understand that it may not be a "good" time for us men to talk.<P>When you replied to his question "What would make you happy", you really through a lot at him. I could almost see him back peddling as you were talking.<P>CJ, you know me - I'm honest with you just as you are with me. I think this time neither of you was right or wrong, I just think it was the wrong time for the conversation.<P>And I know you are going to say that no time seems to be good for him, but there are good times - I just think you need to pay attention to spot them. And when those times exist, pay close attention to how you start the conversation. Maybe start out by complimenting him on something that is going well in your relationship that he is responsible for...Kind of like "a spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down..."<P>Just my thoughts...<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>"Oh that is a bunch of psychobabble, mumbo jumbo. I don't believe in any of that crap. I won't do us any good anyway, and I thought all that was behind us now. I only told you that in the beginning to make you shut up about it already".......................... Here's what I need your advice on, and please be brutally honest--did I really miss the boat here? Or is there something dramatically wrong with this scenario?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Even Atilla the Hun recognized the value of keeping his word once given.<P>Hi CJ,<P>Sure sorry to hear that this is all happening to you. What is going on here could be as take off on the old accuse to excuse game. It is crazy, he runs off with another woman, then comes back to tell you what is wrong with you. Had to get the dictionary and the thesaurus out, cruelty just wasn't a strong enough word.<P>Sadly, it fits right in with the points Dr. Harley makes in his columns on infidelity. They might be worth reading again. Basically, the WS rarely feels remorse for the infidelity, and most certainly doesn't want to accept responsibility for the action. They are capable of an abstract admission of wrong doing, but would rather find fault with you than deal with the aftermath of their exploits. If you doubt that, just read some of the posts from WSs here. It is always has something like "I was wrong, but....etc., etc. etc.<P>From reading your post, your husband strikes me as an individual who is very much aware of how the actions of others affect him, but doesn't have either a clue or concern about how his actions of betrayal may have affected you. He doesn't really want to deal with that. His thinking never really gets beyond "I want". Very much brings to mind Sigmund Frued's concept of "His Majesty The Baby", (1914) He establishes his kingdom upon birth, and never grows beyond the idea that all things and all people exist for his care, comfort and luxury. It's people like him that give self centeredness a bad name.<P>OK, the brutal honesty part. When you first posted about how happy you felt at the opportunity for reconcillation was at hand, there was a sense that you were taking a great risk that something like this would happen. Then a few days ago when he started handing you the lines about "you are too etc., etc., ad neausium," he was firing a shot across your bow so to speak. This time he hit you broadside. I was afraid it was coming, but even more afraid to say anything that might discourage you. <P>Someone mentioned that he has already slipped back into his pattern of behavior. I would only add that he did it in record time. It is recognizable because as an alcoholic, I used to live this way. Screw Up, Apology, Promise to change, Slip Up, Screw Up, Apology, Promise..... and so on. Expect the cycle to continue until he takes the initiative to get the proper therapy to break the cycle.<P>We drunks don't have a corner on the goofy market. One of the early writers on alcoholism once noted that "There is no permanance of sobriety without a profound change in attitude. Let me now suggest to you that neither is there any permanance of reconcilliation without a profound change in attitude.<P>OK, CJ, you really are a great gal, and this time, I think you have been used. That is a brutal analysis. But darn it, I feel for you.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper <P>

(((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))<P>Sorry to hear about your latest. I too hoped that he had made changes and believed in the principles stated here. For what it's worth.. Your's didn't do it in record time.. Mine beat that one!!! We did the whole filling out the EA forms and talking about the ones we didn't meet with each other. <P>We talked of honesty and its importance. I took it seriously. It went in one ear and out the other for him. For me it seems to be the best possible thing that could have happened though.. Finally I feel free. Still love him more than I can imagine loving another individual.. But I love who he used to be. <P>I can just tell you.. Whatever path you take.. Plan A or Plan B.. Be true to yourself. Go back to an individual counselor, figure out what it is YOU need. Without him. Then figure out if he is part of that whole plan. Finally, back to my situation. I can't live with someone who loves me when it's convenient, who runs when there's a problem, who lies about EVERYTHING.. I deserve better. And so do YOU. Everyone on this board does. <P>Take care- <P>Lots of hugs and prayers coming your way.. <P>PS>>> I will be in Boulder from the 11th-18th.. E-mail me if you want to go out for a drink. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com

What does your heart say? Sometimes we teach ourselves to ignore what our innerselves are trying so hard to tell us.<BR>My own situation is like this, I know in my heart it is over but I still hang on hoping that she will smarten up and see the light. If I really look back on the last 3 years, the facts show that I have not really gotten anything out of this relationship.<BR>It's time to move on, I'm sure that one day my head will actually agree with my heart.<BR>Believe in yourself

Dani1962,<P>Just be careful when you say "I looked back and the facts show.." because our minds have a way of "re-coloring" the past to help us cope with the present. Most, if not all of the spouses that are "in the fog" are notorious for doing this. My wife did just that - she went back and pulled every bad thing that happened and ignored (forgot) all the good. She did it so well she started to convince me that are marriage was in fact "wrong". But after time, all the good memories came pouring back for me. It was then that I realized that just as the WS can recolor the past, so too can it happen to the spouse who has been left.<P>Whether it is right or wrong I think is up for debate. If it helps you cope, then I guess it is alright for that person. For me, I focused on remembering my marriage as I experienced it - overall good. It does not take much for me to pick apart my wife - I could pick apart just about any partner I had over the years. Even in the best marriages, a spouse can pick apart the other.<P>It is easy to get in that mindset that there is something always better out there. And to a point that is true. But how long do you go on looking for that perfect person? For me, I loved my wife. She left. She looks at our past totally different. I KNOW our marriage was good (not great, but good) and that with time and work it could have become great.<P>I guess all I am saying is to remember that if you felt happy in your marriage, you were. Try not to let your mind go back and over-analyze your marriage now that you are hurting. Leave that to your wife....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.