I have a serious question here..you may not think it<BR>is..but it is..as some of you who have read my posts know<BR>I am the WS..but not going into all that..I've been doing<BR>alot of healing and emotional maturing over the past <BR>couple years..and have been in withdrawl since long<BR>before that..but my question is this..how does one come<BR>out of withdrawl..when there appears to be no changes in<BR>the other person..they are just indifferent..and don't<BR>like the changes that you have made..which actually make<BR>you a better person..because NOW you actually like yourself..where you didn't before..<P>how long does one have to pay pentance for hurting the other person?<P>And what could one possibly do to pay back a debt that<BR>can never truely be repaid? feel guilty? for how long? <BR>if they are truely sorry they hurt the person..how long do they have to pay a debt they said they were sorry for incurring and has by God's account been paid in full by<BR>His shed blood on the cross..<P>God tells me OWE no man NOTHING...so if I've apologized..<BR>and asked forgiveness..that was payment for the debt incurred..or is there something more that I owe him??<P>And if I owe him...does he not also OWE me for hurting me?<BR>and how do I make him pay that debt? should I not accept <BR>God's payment in full for payment of his hurts against me?<BR>or do I do as he does..and continue trying to make him pay a debt that he can never realistically repay? <P>And if I accept God's payment for the hurts he's caused me..<BR>how can I help him to learn to do the same??<P>Like I said..I've been healing emotionally from alot of past abuses..and if I want God to forgive me my sins (debts) then I need to forgive also..so I am looking at this from a different perspective..that I want to accept God's payment for the past hurts..not just from him...but from all them..<BR>but how does one help a bs someone that you've hurt..and that hurt you..understand this??

I don't know what you have done to make amends, but if you have truly done everything you can possibly do, and have not committed the acts again. Then I would say, I long will it take you to forgive yourself. You may never get the forgiveness you seek from others. <P>

ThornedRose, your H is an alcoholic. He <B>can't</B> love you and he isn't capable of responding to your amends in a healthy fashion.<P>The issue should be that <B>you</B> did what you could to make amends. You can't expect to control the outcome. When we make amends, it doesn't mean that the other person HAS to accept it or change their own behavior. And if that is your motivation...then it's not an amends, its a manipulation.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

I guess it's more...how do you show them that you really don't "owe" them anything..yes, I hurt this person..and I'm sorry I hurt him..but how does one live with being treated as if you still owe them something..because you hurt them?<BR>living as if your indebted to this person..<P>I know I can't change him..but how could I help him understand true forgiveness? that if you say you forgive someone you don't keep reminding them of what they did..

TR,<P>Forgiveness is something very hard. As you know, something I'm struggling with right now, and I have always considered myself a very forgiving person.<P>I'm going to try to answer your question from 2 points of view in my life.<P>The first, with my ex husband. He has never really fully shown remorse but I also don't believe he is capable of it. When I came to realize that I was also to blame in his decision to betray me, I was able to forgive him in a way. It was that I had to take my own blame for the whole affair even though I was the BS. And I told him I forgave him. And one time when I was very down, he told me he never meant for any of this to happen and that he still thought about me, and missed me. It was a healing time for us. But life is so hard, and when times get rough, I go back to this view that if HE never would have left the way he did, my life wouldn't be so bad. So there have been times when I am not as nice to him because I'm angry. <P>In reality, its up to me to make my life better now, and I know that, but times when you are down and depressed, its just too easy to lash out at the one person who you feel set the whole string of events into motion.<P>After I've lashed out, I realize it, and appologize and he is ok about it. He understands that I'm still suffering a lot over so much, and the way we see it, we fought when we were married. When we both were in love and lived for each other. So we don't expect divorced life to be any different. There are times when he takes things out on me.<P>So even though we "say" we've forgiven , we still fall back on the issue when we have an issue.<P>And for the current situation in my life, there are so many factors to it, that I feel I am capable of forgiving. However, I know I'll never forget and thats the hard part.<P>So while I say I'm going to do my best , there will be times when I would get angry and go back to that pain.<P>I remember reading other posts about your H being an alcoholic. My dad was too. It was very very hard. To grow up with one. And he was the type who was very MEAN when he got drunk. As a matter of fact, I just got into a fight with him yesterday, because I was crying and he told me I have a way of sucking all the sick people with too many issues to myself. The way he put it made me very upset because I trusted him to tell him why I was hurt ( for bf's loss) and he STILL after all these years, can't talk to me with respect and I know its because he drank last night, and this was the "morning after" event.<P>So again, as I know you are a WS, I can see how it happens and why. There is nothing worse than living with an alcoholic, well to me, besides being betrayed.<P>I would say that just the fact that he "IS" one, would make it real hard for him to forgive you in the way I feel your looking for , from him. Alcoholics all have excuses as to why they drink, and he probably uses you as one of them to avoid the real issue. So as long as he wants to be an alcoholic, I can't see him giving you the peace you've searched for from him.<P>But instead, can you forgive yourself? And if you feel God has forgiven you, then you may have to live with just that. Forgiving yourself is many times harder than forgiving someone else.<P>I think you have greatly paid for your mistake and the fact that you are here honestly trying to help others rather than put it behind you means a lot.<P>Sorry for the ramble it is taking my time to keep my thoughts straight, but I believe that this problem you are having is to do with him not willing and maybe never will. You don't deserve to spend your life trying to make it up or gain his forgiveness, he has to want to give it for good. <P>Hugs, Dana<BR>

Hi TR,<P>Your story and mine have a lot in common. I'm the recovered alcoholic who was the B/S and became a W/S. Have you checked out the Al Anon family groups? You might find a lot of help and support there.<P>If your ex or STBX is an active alcoholic, there isn't much you can do other than to make sure you don't become another one of his enablers. W.C. Fields had a great line: "I was once in love with a beautiful woman. She drove me to drink. And for that I'll be forever grateful." It would be good to understand that alcoholism is a family disease, it affects no only the drunk, but those around him too. Alcoholism and affairs are not strangers, neither are alcoholism and divorce.<P>Women have a tendency to come and go in the alcoholic's life. Booze has a tendency to kill us. As long as he continues to drink, even the best shrink can't get through to him. The drugged brain just doesn't process information like everyone else does. If you can't help him, at least help yourself.<P>Affairs differ from abuse only in degree of hurt. In those drunken years, we said some awfully ugly things to each other. Once the ugly remark has left your mouth, you can never get it back. Once the affair has happened, you can't undo that either. So the process becomes one of figure out who you hurt, become willing to make amends, make those amends except when to do so would injure them or others, and turn it over to God. If the other party chooses not to accept the amends, there is nothing more you can do. Then it is no longer your problem, it is his. <P>If he decides to sober up and make a recovery, and you both get to where you can make and accept amends, that is a whole different story. That's when the real work begins, and that is when the MB principles can really start paying off. Sorry, but in the meantime, there is no easier, softer way.<P>Prayers and Stuff,<P>Bumper