I went to a music concert this weekend. Several of the performers were quite good-looking, but I experienced a...libidinal...response to one girl in particular. It shook me up a bit.<P>This girl had the same hair style as my wife. She was wearing a dress that I would have instantly grabbed for my wife if I had seen it in a store. She had a figure very much like my wife's, and even the shape of her face was similar (although not her facial features). She even <I>moved</I> in the same way as my wife.<P>In the hours following the concert I was haunted by memories of my wife, not of anything in particular, but just...images, and the sense of her presence.<P>This experience made me realize just how deep my attraction to my wife runs. As I said, there were <I>several</I> good-looking performers. My sense of feminine beauty is not particularly narrow, and as an adolescent I certainly had my fair share of "crushes" on many different types of girls. But only <I>one</I> performer evoked a significant response from me. Admiration and an appreciation of beauty only go so far, and it seems that my capacity for actual <I>attraction</I> has been thoroughly conditioned by my relationship with my wife. She has become for me the very definition of feminine allure, and who and what I am has been changed.<P>It's no wonder that moving into another relationship soon after your spouse leaves you is problematic. I think the difficulty is far <I>more</I> than just needing the time to heal and to learn from your mistakes. The effects of a marriage run very, very deep.<BR>

Hi Gnome,<P>I was kind thinking the same thing last week as I sat on a beautiful Hawaiian beach with my friend visiting from Oregon (female). We've been old buddies for long time and were, of course, talking about guys....esp. the guys that were on the beach that day. While there were a coupla good looking ones, none of them really grabbed me (literally or physically...HA!) as "my type," which is actually what my H is. Now I'm not sure any more, but I'm still attracted to the same type.<P>I think one of the thing I'll have to "face" if or when I ever start dating again is, that I may want to open up or broaden my defination of what is attractive to me. Living in Hawaii, there are so many different cultural groups here, that I see so many different types of faces, figures, etc. That's one of the things I love about it. (In fact, my island - Hawaii - was just voted the most culturally-diverse county in America.) I think I've come to see that beauty (physical or whatever kind) can come in many different packages. And of course, I'm older too, so I "see" different things than I did when I was young.<P>Above all else, there has to be a "spark" of some kind. But I've felt pre-sparks with other men, that I'm not attracted to, so they go hand in hand I think. I'll probably always lean towards the same "look" my H has....o well.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The effects of a marriage run very, very deep.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>On another note....I have been doing much better lately, esp. emotionally. It's been 1-1/2 years since D-Day and over a year since he moved out to live with the OW. While we are still only separated, I am, and have decided to, move on with my life this year....at least in little steps. (All things in time.) <P>Your statement reminded me of the other night, I was watching something on TV and it made me think of my H and how someone I loved so dearly, could mess up his life like he has. I just felt so much pain, concern, compassion for him.....he had a rough childhood, a messed up twentys, and now, after so many years (15+) of getting back on track, he's de-railed again....it's like he doesn't know any better. I felt really, really sorry for him.<P>And as much as I'd like to just let him go and let the break be as clean as possible (we had no kids), he will always be with me in some form. That's another thing that good old marriage bond does....it REALLY IS a bond...not just a piece of paper, not just words....in a very real, spiritual, flesh-ly way...it really is a bond. <P>That's why all this sucks....it's not the way it was designed to work. And while we do out best to get thru it, to me, it just reinforces what marriage is supposed to be.<P>Anyway, thanks for sharing.<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><BR>

Yes, it is in a "flesh-ly" way, a bond, as Mrs. O. put it. It is like the sense of his skin was burned into mine. My ex had a very unique look. Quirky, sexy, and odd. Like a mix of Matthew Modine and McCauley Culkin with glasses. A very sexy voice too. Everytime I hear expressions or someone who walks like him, I get a chill. Not a passionate/wanting one, just a kind of jolt. I have also noticed that all the guys I have dated (not like there have been a ton) since the divorce have been the complete opposite appearance wise: tall, dark hair, dark eyes, very muscular beefcake types. My ex was blonde and thin with glasses. No beef in his cake. <P>At any rate, Gnome, you have a good point about how your wife has defined feminine allure and attractiveness. Those huge, hunky men just don't seem to be men to me. I am attracted to them, but there is something missing.... Am I just crazy??

Definately can relate to this and find myself looking at men that have some small resemblance to the stbx; the littlest things, like the shape of their hands or brow, the sound of their voice, ect. I do have a "type" and I do still have an attraction to the man my stbx was physically. I just pray that the attraction does not extend to the mental "type".<p><BR> What I find that disturbs me is that I still carry remnants of things I picked up from my stbx, gestures, certain phrases and facial expressions. It shouldn't bother me but it does, like he's imprinted in a very profound way on me and I'm striving to eradicate it. I don't want to carry pieces around of someone so willing and able to emotionally hamstring me.

Hmmmmm, something's fishy about this, from my perspective, although it is probably my perspective. although GDP talked strictly visual characteristics, i believe it extends deeper , beyond the physical characteristics.<P>1) I believe that each person is attracted to the same type of qualities in the opposite sex. the attraction is derived from the combination of personalities and the physical characteristics of the person. These attractive qualities also come from your imprint of your opposite sex parent, for whom you show unconditional love, trying to repeat your mother/father figure.<P>2) If #1 is true, then one will find themselves attracted to a similar person as the XS, and may again have the same "problems" in a second marriage as the first, as you were attracted to a similar person.<P>In my opinion, it is imperative to understand who you are and where you came from so that you understand to whom you will be attracted, so that you can decide whether a similar person will generate similar problematic issues, or whether it was that particular XS that created the issues. Meaning, you may be attracted to a certain physical appearance. Yet, if you ONLY take that quality into consideration, you are not taking a complete inventory of emotional needs and deciding on a complete picture.<P>From my experience, I find that i am attracted to a narrow range of women, meaning, they all have certain characteristics that evoke certain responses from me.<BR>Because I have done "extensive" self analysis, i know from where these responses come from, BUT can't decide if the same problems will erupt sometime in the future or not if/when I developed a long term/ permanent relationship with a similar individual.<P>One of the characteristics is physical characteristic similarities to my MOM! (surprise! surprise!) Height is one, and body shape, movement is another. My Mom is slightly smaller than i am, by about 3 inches. A woman that size with a similar figure is very attractive. additional attractors include short curley hair, and slightly above average bust size with well proportioned hips.<P>Second of the characteristics is that she has an intense desire to support her kids, to mother in the growth area, wanting to have them grow up to be the best that they can be. She organizes/offers/suggests opportunities for the growth/well being of the kids (SAHM type, yep, just like my MOM!)<P>Third of the characteristics is that she compliments me in my sensitive side, since i repress that side of me for personal reasons. This combination means that I am the business person, and she is the touchy/feely, artist, romantic/ social organizer person. (only partly similar to my MOM; but definately of my two parents, the opposite of my dad)<P>Now, my X sort of started out like that, but I ran up against some of her FOO issues that have rejected who i grew into. (dangling preposition! bad grammar!) so will my next relationship work out? who knows, BUT i know much better about myself, and what i need/want to make a successful relationship work.<P>Without this "self analysis" work, i have seen others be attracted to the same person and get burned for the same reasons.<P>GDP, are any of those attractive characteristics similar to your mom's? and <BR>are the characteristics that your XW displayed similar to an image of your MOM?<P><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 09, 2001).]

I would have to agree with you, WIFTT. However, these traits we look for in a person that may be similar to our parent, aren't all that conscious. It's easy for me to look back on my H NOW and see that in many ways he was very similar to my Dad. However at the time, I didn't pick him because of that and in fact, I probably would have disagreed with anyone who may have told me he was similar to my Dad!<P>I, too, believe that you (I) will have to really stop, look and listen, when you are initially attracted to a person, esp, if they are similar in type to your ex. The big question for me is, as you put it:<P><B>"whether a similar person will generate similar problematic issues, or whether it was that particular XS that created the issues."</B><P>That's really the thing I need to watch out for. Which isn't easy, esp. if chemistry, emotions, etc. are getting in the way. I have a pretty good balance between my head and my heart, but when I'm in the middle of it, I forget that I have a good balance sometimes, and just hope that it kicks in! It's like you can't really see what is happening until you step away sometimes.<P>Anyway, that is why I am trying to "open" my mind up to seeing beauty in different types of people, at least from an initial point of view. I am NOT ready to date and am actually still married, although separated for over a year, so I'm just "testing" in my head when I see someone, how attracted to them I might be. It's a good test for me and may allow me someday, if I go that route, to find a great person who may or may NOT be what my typical type was. (Hope that makes sense.)<P>By the way, this "test" I do for myself is only in my head; I DO NOT even know or talk to the person...just looking and trying to "see" more than I would normally see if I hadn't gone thru what I've just been thru. (Now I really hope THAT made sense!).<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>PS gsd: I love your phrase <B>"It is like the sense of his skin was burned into mine."</B> That is so exactly what it's like!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited May 09, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>GDP, are any of those attractive characteristics similar to your mom's? and are the characteristics that your XW displayed similar to an image of your MOM?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never dated in high school. I have an older sister whom I really respected, and none of the girls I knew measured up. As I got to know the-girl-who-would-become-my-wife in college, I realized I had finally met someone I could really respect; but what made me realize that I was falling in love with her was the recognition that she reminded me of my <I>mother</I>, not my sister.<P>My wife does not look like my mother. They both have dark hair, and pretty much the same number of eyes and noses (etc.), but that's about it. However, they have similar personalities.<P>I went into marriage with the expectation that my wife and I would bring out the best in each other. We complemented each other. I knew that my wife had certain strengths that would inspire me to rise to her level, and I believed that I had certain strengths that would help my wife achieve her own potential. But like you, WIFTT, I failed to understand the significance of my wife's FOO issues, which were (and are) far more serious than my own (although I failed to understand even the significance of my <I>own</I> FOO issues, which <I>did</I> - and no doubt do - exist even though I was raised in a very healthy family environment).<P>My observation about my conditioning, about what Nduli2 so appropriately calls "imprinting", has to do with the <I>narrowing</I> of my range of attraction. Sure, as an adolescent there were certain physical characteristics that I found more appealing in a woman than others. But for me those characteristics no longer evoke the same sort of "pure" response. When I see a girl or woman I find attractive, I find myself <I>automatically</I> noting which features remind me of my wife. Because more than anything else it's my <I>wife</I> I'm attracted to (or, since you don't like dangling prepositions, WIFTT, it's my wife to whom I am attracted).<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited May 09, 2001).]

GDP,<P>1) i'm sure why you brought our sister into this discussion <BR>2) Its WIFTT, not WIFFT.<BR>3) I understand that you are making the comparison with your X, BUT these correlations with your X is a pattern, which needs to be understood, IMHO, to process the understanding of the relationship to prevent the same MISTAKE again, or to aid in the healing process. However, if you just want to stay in love with your X and not heal, then disregard my postings. I am assuming you want to get beyond her, my fault in assuming if that is not the case.<P>As a fellow INTP, the thinking and analysis is what causes me/(us?) to heal the best because that is our strongest temperment, and our underlying survival.<P>not meant as a criticism by any means, just an observation to start thinking about to process the sensory information correctly.<P>Let me say that the image of my mom, and wanting someone like my mom is very strong, however, I am not sure I can live with my mom! and yes, i am 4 MBTI characters different than my dad and 1 MBTI character different than my mom, BUT since both are J's and I am a P, i struggle with both of them, although less with my mom than my dad.<P>wifTt

I guess I'm the odd one because I don't care to look at anyone who resembles my exH. And I haven't been attracted to anything similar to him since he left.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>1) i'm sure why you brought our sister into this discussion </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was comparing all the girls I met with my sister, not really thinking about the fact that I wouldn't actually be interested in being married to someone like my sister. I thought my wife <I>did</I> compare favorably with my sister in terms of capability and character, but it was only when I realized she was more like my <I>mother</I> that I recognized the depth of my attraction to her.<P>It's kind of funny, really. I had to <I>understand</I> my attraction before I was able to identify my feelings. Is that INTP enough for you?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>2) Its WIFTT, not WIFFT.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oops, sorry. I went back and corrected it... (Let's see, that would be "When I find f****** time", right?)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>3) I understand that you are making the comparison with your X, BUT these correlations with your X is a pattern, which needs to be understood, IMHO, to process the understanding of the relationship to prevent the same MISTAKE again, or to aid in the healing process. However, if you just want to stay in love with your X and not heal, then disregard my postings. I am assuming you want to get beyond her, my fault in assuming if that is not the case.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't really believe I <I>did</I> make a mistake in marrying my wife. We really <I>were</I> compatible, and we really <I>were</I> complementary. I just didn't understand the FOO issues, and I don't think I could have predicted how they would blow up in our faces. I don't think it's possible to avoid people with FOO issues, since we <I>all</I> have them.)<P>I do think it's advisable for me to understand the pattern, since the more I understand about the way I function, the better I should be able to cope with life. I'm really not sure what this has to do with healing, though. I <I>do</I> want to heal, but I do not know what it means to "get beyond" my wife. I understand that I can not depend on her for my happiness or the fulfillment of any of my needs, but I do not know what I stand to gain by killing my love for my wife or packing away my memories. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>As a fellow INTP, the thinking and analysis is what causes me/(us?) to heal the best because that is our strongest temperment, and our underlying survival.<P>not meant as a criticism by any means, just an observation to start thinking about to process the sensory information correctly.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh. Yeah, it really is a "survival" mechanism, isn't it?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>wifTt</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, yeah, I <I>get</I> it already! <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanaB:<BR><B>I guess I'm the odd one because I don't care to look at anyone who resembles my exH. And I haven't been attracted to anything similar to him since he left.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It may come down to associations. If reminders of your WS are predominantly <I>hurtful</I>, then it makes sense that any embodiment of those associations would be repellent. In my case, memories of my wife are primarily <I>good</I>.<P>Of course, nothing is simple.<BR>

Very interesting thread.<P>I found my STBX very attractive externally. Internally is a different matter entirely, now. I now find myself not attracted to women constructed like her. At all.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Oops, sorry. I went back and corrected it... (Let's see, that would be "When I find f****** time", right?)<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B> ROTFLMAO </B><P>that was a good one!<P>Back to serious:<P>FOO issues: I saw them, but i thought they were environmentally produced, and to some extent, they are.<BR>BUT what I didn't realize is that just changing the environment for a traditionalist with no sense of intuition and perception, was impossible. That was a mistake that i couldn't see, BUT i would have had to change my environment at some point anyway since it was FOO related, and going away economically anyway.<P>Interestingly enough, similarly to GDP, we were doing fine UNTIL I changed the environment when I changed from my FOO issues that i broke away with to become true to myself. She could not follow, nor did she agree with them, ultimately. Harley says to try to recreate the past, but it is really impossible for me to do that. it would require a substantial career change straight backward and downward.<P>so the other mistake i made was going along with the flow when I knew that i shouldn't be, but couldn't figure out where else to find a companion, or why I knew that the marriage was not a good long term decision, since she was fulfilling my EN's at the time. I really think that given what i see now, I love only what was, but not what is now, my X. It was a dream, and i was existing because I had decided to stay married, even if unhappy, because i am adaptable, and dedicated, and when i brought up change, i was told i was wrong, didn't know what i was talking about, etc.<P>However, i don't feel the same about my X as i did. She has been/will always be a manipulating, controlling, low self esteemed, psychologically disordered, child in many ways. I would have divorced her once the kids were out of the house, unless she had changed with counseling.<P>So that's a wrap!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>GnomeDePlume said: <B>"I don't really believe I did make a mistake in marrying my wife. We really were compatible, and we really were complementary. I just didn't understand the FOO issues, and I don't think I could have predicted how they would blow up in our faces."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I couldn't agree more....that's how I feel about my H. He's not only thrown away me and his whole life, at the same time, he also thru away his Mom and other family members....he communicates with no one except his workmates and the OW. He has BIG FOO issues and I pray to God that someday he will be able to address them. (I finally figured out what FOO was....sorry, a little slow on the uptake today.) <P>And the comment about "getting beyond" your wife/spouse.... that's entirely impossible, IMHO. You don't "get beyond" someone else. You can "get beyond" this season in your life, you can "get beyond" the pain, you can "get beyond" the bad memories or the marriage relationship.....but you don't "get beyond" a person. I'm going to assume that's what you meant, <B>WIFTT</B>, because if not, that kind of thinking is elitist and assumes that some are at a "higher level" of personhood than others. Just because you (any of us) may have survived one kind of pain, doesn't mean we are at a higher level than or "beyond" others. <P>We are all in this life together....we all have the same race to run. Because we are uniquely created, we will each face different and react differently to life's challenges. The winners aren't the ones who get there first, in any given event/situation. The winners only win when all of us get there....and that includes the WS and the OP, sorry to say. That is what true healing is all about. It's not "getting beyond" someone or away from something, it's making our way THROUGH life's challenges in a way that evokes love, compassion, etc. to all others, and allows then them to find their own way, however hurtful it is to us or to them. Like gsd said, the marriage vow for me was like "the sense of his skin was burned into mine." How could I possibly get THAT out of my skin? I can't....I can only strive to get to a place where when I look at my skin and think of him, I feel compassion...yes, even love...for him and hope that someday he will heal as well.<P>Sorry for the lecture. That's just my thought on that.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited May 09, 2001).]

Beyond the other person means get to the other side, getting past the situation<BR>and isn't worded very well. However, I do not mean above as in elitist, I mean where there is acceptance of the situation, where the pain has diminished such that it doesn't interfere with your normal life, and where you see the relationship for what it was to you, and how you contributed to its demise, and where you have forgiven yourself for your contribution, and where you don't have any more anger for what has happened. <P>The away part is physical separation so that the person can heal, it was in a book about recovery, which i felt was important, which is why Plan B works the way it does, the love bank ebbs slowly, instead of a run on the deposits which can happen with constant display of disrespect.<P>now T dominant people can do that much easier than F dominant people, for sure. However, i don't think this meaning is elitist.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 09, 2001).]