I haven't heard back yet, but a further idea came to mind, although I'm not sure why I want this ... not really sure if it's for me or for the XW. <P>The bottom line to this thought: Insist XW pick up the check from me in person. I just want us to look each other in they eye one more time. No real expectations from her, no real plan as to what I might say. Just maybe some of that strange thing called closure.<P>Sanity check, anyone?

Sisyphus...<P>You still want care... it seems you want to see if she shows any remorse or softness towards you? Maybe you wouldn't want a relationship anymore, but you want to end in peace, no?<P>Take care and mind your expectations... you likely will NOT get what you want. If you can let it go AND THEN it happens how much sweeter will it be?<P>Time has to heal the wounds my friend... just keep praying for closure in a way that you can sense it. Let it surprise you rather than try to control it (i.e. face to face meeting). Prepare yourself for the time it may (no WILL) happen.<P>Okay, what would you do if she did show remorse?<BR>What would you do if she did say, sorry?<BR>What would you do if she did show some signs of tenderness?<P>Would you treat it respectfully or with a "I told you so" attitude?<P>Care my friend...<BR>nicole

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Okay, what would you do if she did show remorse?<BR>What would you do if she did say, sorry?<BR>What would you do if she did show some signs of tenderness?<P>Would you treat it respectfully or with a "I told you so" attitude?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I believe I would try to attain a mutual benediction of some kind. Although I don't regret it, I know I chose to do something that likely hurt, or at least embarrassed her. And she chose to sever all contact and make both our lives more difficult than they needed to be. <P>Probably best not to try to force it though.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited July 30, 2001).]

GF and I have had a discussion, in which one idea came up that I need some feedback on. <P>GF thinks I might appear unannounced at XW's office ... with the paper that I need signed, the check that she wants, and the CD-Rs of sensitive material.<P>If I get my signature, XW would get the check and the CDs. Otherwise, she gets no check and boss gets the CDs.<P>I find it an elegant potential solution, but it is also a rather brutal sudden challenge to XW's autonomy, and I question whether she deserves to be treated that way, and am also afraid she would respond unfavorably. And then I'm not sure I could go through with the tough part. <P>But it's almost all that's left to do. Responses from her side have not been forthcoming, even though they know I have the check in hand. <P>Any thoughts?

You've already got some leverage with the check, so I would hold back on the CD-R. If showing up like you propose is a violation of your agreement (or restraining order or whatever), then trying to force your XW's hand that way already exposes you to some risk. If I were you, I think I would want to hang onto the CD-R as a possible means to counteract that.<BR>

Good point, GDP. Just for the record ... there never has been a restraining order. There <I>is</I> a bunch of language that I drafted (in terms so tight they border on humiliation) that neither side would bother the other.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>. Neither party shall bother, harm, molest, compel, or endeavor to compel the other to cohabit or dwell with the other, nor shall either party harass, threaten, or make unwanted contact with the other by any means including in-person visits or loitering in or around the other party’s residence or business premises, phone calls, faxes, mail, e-mail, pages or other forms of communication electronic or otherwise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Obviously, I'm going to violate that, but I think I can use the defense of <I>necessity</I>. And if not, I don't really care anymore.

Sisyphus,<P>I've watched your frustrations throughout your thread. Our circumstances are somewhat familiar because I understand the need to put things to rest. <P>I waited three years to retrive my court ordered list of property. In 1999 things were partially dropped off on my terrace, then he did another partial drop off in my attorney's parking lot (quite humiliating). In 2000 I went to the x's residence. retrived some more (everything wasn't in the garage waiting for me. Went back to court in June for a "Show Cause" hearing to find him guilty of contempt. The judge gave him one more chance. On July 5, 2001 I recieved the balance. Well almost the balance. I've sent my attorney an "I FOLD" fax.<P>All in all I understand your frustration of not having things wrapped up and how far someone will go to mess with you.

The challenge here is just to hold my tongue ... the first party to follow up an unanswered communication ... has blinked, and is ripe to have advantage taken of them. <P>The ball is in <I>their</I> court right now, and I can't go chasing after it.

Or can I? The situation is starting to burn me up a little more again ... the satisfaction of holding that check is beginning to wear off a bit. <P>Last night GF suggested I write XW's attorney a letter saying basically that I'm "closing my file" on the matter, and leaving her hanging out there. IMO, that's not any sort of real prod ... they know that whenever they <I>do</I> get in touch, I'll deal with them. <P>But it got the wheels turning ... it's tempting to write XW's attorney (copying XW directly) and suggest that he's dragging this out and giving her bad advice just to run his billable hours up ... sort of the ultimate insult. <P>Another alternative would be to call her day-trader brother (the one who's local, and acted like he didn't see me) and open with "Your sister owes me a document" ... no "hello" even ... so he has to hear it before he gets a chance to hang up. Maybe right around 9AM when the market opens, or 3:45, when the market is about to close--so it might screw up a trade and cost him some money (which, given the market's behavior lately, he probably can ill afford). Timing is everything. <P>Just passing thoughts. I'll actually keep them on the back burner and await XW's next move.

So, do you want to aggrevate people? Or are you just spouting off here? Though it sounds funny what you could do to ex bro in law... think through if the results will actually do what you had hoped. Oh but it is tempting... <P>I'm still curious as to the name of this topic "new twist for the same old temptation..." Is that the old temptation, to aggrevate people or to seek revenge?<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>I'm still curious as to the name of this topic "new twist for the same old temptation..." Is that the old temptation, to aggrevate people or to seek revenge?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, <I>aggravation</I> seems the only effective motivator. Asking nicely, and cooperating swiftly ... don't seem to get me any respect, but <I>aggravating</I> shifted things into high-gear, at least for a while. I have to do <I>what works</I>.<P>As to the topic title--the "temptation" was to send the disks to her boss, for whatever reason (previously revenge, morphed into defensive weapon, now morphing back to something more like punishment). <P>

And with that admission/confession...<P>Do you feel at peace? <P>Is it getting you what you truly want? <P>Have you examined your true motives here? <P>What have you learned about YOU throughout all of this... I'm wondering if this trailing saga isn't another attempt God is making to show you something about yourself... <P>Now, if I were your current GF, I'd be pretty nervous hearing about the way you speak and act against your XW... knowing you ONCE committed your life to her... what would you do to me, since you haven't made the same commitment.<P>Anyway, I'm needling you a bit... KNOW that I truly wish you the best and lasting peace... <P>Warmly,<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>And with that admission/confession...<BR>Do you feel at peace? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not till I get my accounts just for myself, but as of right now I don't feel too wound up.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it getting you what you truly want? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, getting closer and closer to having to use the disks, or even do various silly things to motivate her (I have previously wryly termed it a <I>Plagues of Egypt</I> approach) ... is not really what I want. It's what I have to do. I cannot fathom her motivation for dragging this out. She may be getting some <I>bad advice</I> not to sign that release because it doesn't absolve her of liability for the accounts, and she would have to trust that I am going to make the reapplication. I have certainly told her attorney that I'm intending to reapply, although I haven't baby-stepped him through the intended process.<P>If for some reason the reapplication didn't go through, I do have the resources to pay off whatever debts exist at that time (and if I didn't, I would certainly not default, in any case). <P>What I truly want is to be done, and without having to extend myself one iota beyond what is absolutely required of me.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Have you examined your true motives here? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have examined my motives. If my motives were black, XW would have found herself instantly out of a job and facing angry relatives who knew what she thought of them, or what she had hidden from them about other relatives, or what she herself had done. It's like that whole family is quietly tiptoeing through a city built over the goop that was running through the sewers of NYC in <I>Ghostbusters II</I>, and I could easily have shunted it to the surface (and still could). <P><I>Wanting</I> to do that ... well, yes--hurt people want to hurt the people that hurt them. I've been patient and held back (at no small emotional cost to myself) on all but the most necessary item to reveal. Judging from how I have felt since revealing that, I think that had I let fly with the rest of it it would have been quite <I>cathartic</I>.<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What have you learned about YOU throughout all of this... I'm wondering if this trailing saga isn't another attempt God is making to show you something about yourself... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Perhaps I'm being shown that anger should be expressed, somewhere and somehow, instead of held inside ... but one needn't express it to the person one is angry with, nor express it in such a way that the other person receives a punishment that has permanent consequences for the rest of their life, even if you feel that such would be warranted by what was done to you. It's possible to be better than that, even if the cost is a continuing feeling that the scales are not even. <P>And also, I have learned that there are moral dilemmas that must be addressed, even where the cost to yourself and others is unknown, and even where it will permanently shred the last scraps of a relationship you probably overvalue anyway. Childhood innocence has more value than any of that.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now, if I were your current GF, I'd be pretty nervous hearing about the way you speak and act against your XW... knowing you ONCE committed your life to her... what would you do to me, since you haven't made the same commitment.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She knows all this, and she's not nervous ... more like astonished at my patience, and wondering if I'm not perhaps a little too patient. Also, quite happy that I am open with her about my feelings. Sure I committed my life to XW ... but she threw that away. What duties remain to me now?<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Anyway, I'm needling you a bit... KNOW that I truly wish you the best and lasting peace... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I didn't feel needled. It helps me to write things that explain myself. Socrates said "The unexamined life is not worth living." I would tend to agree.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 04, 2001).]

You say in response to what God could be teaching you about all of this, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps I'm being shown that anger should be expressed, somewhere and somehow, instead of held inside ... but one needn't express it to the person one is angry with, nor express it in such a way that the other person receives a punishment that has permanent consequences for the rest of their life, even if you feel that such would be warranted by what was done to you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I definitely agree that anger should be expressed... remember that anger, though, is a secondary emotion. The underlying causes are one of three:<P>a) Pain<BR>b) Frustration<BR>c) Fear<P>I'm glad you're recognizing that neither keeping it inside nor destroying someone's life are good options for dealing with it. It's like a continuum... what's the middle ground here? What does the bible tell you (and I really mean YOU, not just what it tells everyone... when you read Matthew 18:15-20 what does it say to you?) about how to resolve your differences with a brother/sister who has *offended* you? (*Offended* is used but can imply a huge varying degree here of offense). I'm not trying to Bible thump - I just want to see if this addresses anything for you?<P><BR>You also indicate this as your ultimate goal: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I truly want is to be done, and without having to extend myself one iota beyond what is absolutely required of me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What are your real options in achieving this goal?<BR>What will it take to really be done?<BR>What is the point at which you will feel like you're extending yourself... have you defined that yet?<P>I'm still hoping for peace... <P>Have you considered *laying down your arms* or *turning the other cheek?* What are the consequences for you if she never signs that release? How about sending a copy of your signed re-application form showing that you will re-apply... maybe submit it and get it notarized to show that this is the way you're going? Can you go ahead and reapply without her signing the other forms you need? In other words, can't you just get on with your life without interacting with her on this one issue? I'm not clear what the form is for, but it sounds like you can especially when you say this, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If for some reason the reapplication didn't go through, I do have the resources to pay off whatever debts exist at that time (and if I didn't, I would certainly not default, in any case). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>More food for you to chew or spew... <P>Cheers,<BR>Nicole<P><BR>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited August 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>what's the middle ground here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Patience. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I truly want is to be done, and without having to extend myself one iota beyond what is absolutely required of me.<P>What are your real options in achieving this goal?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just wait or start making things uncomfortable again <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>What will it take to really be done?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hopefully, not a restart of the <I>Plagues</I>. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>What is the point at which you will feel like you're extending yourself... have you defined that yet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If I do anything with my accounts ... without that release ... I'll have had to go to more trouble than I should have. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you considered *laying down your arms* or *turning the other cheek?*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have. Such a gesture would be unlikely to be seen in that family as other than weakness or a cynical strategem. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What are the consequences for you if she never signs that release?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Her name is still stuck on a couple of my accounts and I have to look at it for the next few years. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> How about sending a copy of your signed re-application form showing that you will re-apply... maybe submit it and get it notarized to show that this is the way you're going?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't want her or her lawyer viewing my financial information. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Can you go ahead and reapply without her signing the other forms you need?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In other words, can't you just get on with your life without interacting with her on this one issue?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep. But she's not getting her $900+ IRS check that way--can't get a break from her, she's not getting any more breaks from me. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not clear what the form is for<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Simply authorizes her name being off my credit union accounts and the attached Visa. As of now, my stuff is still showing up on her credit report, and she wants it off. Fine. Send me the form. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>, but it sounds like you can ... More food for you to chew or spew... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've just drawn my line. With no guarantee I won't suddenly redefine the line as one she crossed long ago ... and heat up hostilties again.<P>

Just an aside: the new job is getting to be a <I>kick</I> for GF. Plenty of deals in the pipleline, although the first didn't work out and the second is now imperiled.<P>She sourced a candidate for one job ... realized that the candidate would be right for another company in another city where candidate happened to already be moving ... the company was one GF's former employer was constantly trying to brush off ... so GF felt nothing prevented her from contacting them to put the candidate in for the publicly-advertised, non-exclusive to any recruiter position ... and the company was OK with working with GF ... until the candidate (who, of course, is also looking on her own) spotted a year-old job posting on the internet and called GF's old company's toll free line looking for GF ... which caused everything to blow sky-high. Old employer tracked down new employer using rusing calls.<P>Old employer also called company ... which now doesn't want candidate because "there's some question whose candidate she is" ... and old employer has had lawyer send letter to both new employer and GF, accusing GF of stealing their database and threatening to sue for everything including mopery with intent to gawk. New employer will back GF to the hilt. GF didn't take their database, and has been building a new one from scratch, using an intern.<P>I wrote GF a letter to send back to employer (bypassing her attorney ... a definite <I>diss</I>) ... basically telling her employer to go pound sand, and oh, by the way, that GF will be going after old employer for <I>tortious interference</I> (if anything happens other than candidate getting hired--by interfering, old employer has basically made herself the <I>guarantor</I> of that job, and should probably <I>beg</I> company to hire the candidate so that GF isn't robbed of a commission) and <I>defamation</I>, no to mention unpaid commissions and bonuses still owed to GF by old employer. This could be <I>fun</I>.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 06, 2001).]

I'm serious... I think you could take almost any situation and spin it into a sit-on-the-edge of your chair saga...<P>Did you/do you get your writing published?<P> <P>Cheers,<BR>nicole<P>ps - I have to get the kids to a vacation bible school this morning but I want to respond to your yesterday note about something that struck me... stay tuned.<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Did you/do you get your writing published?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Only dry, scholarly articles ... Samuel Johnson said "Only a fool writes for other than money." ... well, the articles didn't pay, and neither does this ... so I shouldn't be doing it. Haven't written an article in a few years...<P>

Still no response. Must not want that check very badly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sisyphus originally states: <B>Yep. But she's not getting her $900+ IRS check that way--can't get a break from her, she's not getting any more breaks from me. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What does this mean? Is she supposed to receive this money? Why wouldn't she want to do this? <P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen