Been close to 4 months separated. H has brought up the topic of reconciliation. Great -- just what I always wanted, right? Well, I honestly don't know how I feel about it. Apprehensive, scared, overwhelmed (it'll be a lot of work), but "happy" and "optimistic" just don't come to mind right now. Maybe it'll come later. But, it is really what I've been working towards. I just think I'm so exhausted I can hardly think anymore.<P>In any event, since H has been driving this whole thing, calling all the shots, etc., I want to follow his lead. One thing he wants to do is for each of us to come up w/ a list of criteria, or things that we each want to happen or work on more or whatever, of things we want in our marriage before we completely decide that reconciliation is possible. We're then going to meet, go over our lists, and decide if we can meet these items, if we think we can make them happen. The main thing is that we've got kids, and if we're going to reconcile, we need to make sure it's going to work (this time). It's too damaging to the kids otherwise. So, I think by going over these lists ahead of time, he more or less wants to make sure he is (we are) sure about reconciling.<P>The nice thing is that he doesn't see this as a "him" thing only and his needs. He wants me to make my own list.<P>One thing he mentioned that he'd like to add to his list is for me to take more time out for myself to relax, because I'm too work/chore centric. (Funny, I think he's too "play" an no "work.") He'd also like to make more time for us to go on a vacation together, alone, which we really haven't done in almost our entire marriage of almost 5 years. <P>I haven't written anything up yet, but I've been thinking about it some. I'd want him to go to an anger management class. (He's an anger avoider.) I like his idea of going on vacation alone. I've typically put our kids' needs before our own and I believe our relationship has suffered because of that (as one reason). Other than that, I'm not sure what else to add.<P>What kinds of things would you put on your list if you had one?

My H isnt willing to change. He thinks that I am only pretending to change. I am willing to work on housework, cooking, going to gym etc. To not respond to his angry outbursts by cursing back at him. These were some of his complaints that he told this other woman at work, and also a 3rd party person, but never ever told me.<P>Put your request from your own perspective. Dont blame him. Its very hard to do! I want to ask my husband to find better ways to cope with the extreme stress from work. Not to come home & rage at me over tiny things when the source of his stress is this & not something I've done. I want him to tell me straight that he's upset (about whatever) & needs time to clear his mind & be by himself a while. To not curse at me or be telling me Im fat, stupid, worthless etc because it hurts me deeply & I may start beleiving those cruel words. I want him to understand that if he can help with this, that I would feel more loving toward him. I hope he will accept this. <P>Maybe you can read the letters in the Q/Q about the Policy of Joint Agreement. I think that will help you alot. <p>[This message has been edited by cantletgo (edited June 04, 2001).]

oops forgot one thing. I'm reading a book called "Successfully Different" - An alternative to Divorce" by Arnie Wallace PhD. Some valuable info about having your own identity but still being able to figure out needs for reconsiliation. I just got it from the library's Relationship section.

Hi Que Sera,<P>I am in a similar situation. H has been out since 12/31/00. Just moved back in 4/30/01. <P>List of conditions:<P>For H:<BR>1. Open and honest relationship<BR>2. Communicate<BR>3. Be loving<BR>4. Trash all e-mail addresses, voicemail accounts, p. o. box<BR> addresses setup for OW & H<BR>5. Cut off all communication with OW. If OW should make <BR> contact. H to notify W immediately.<BR>6. Change cell phone #s and pager #. <BR>7. Put families needs first<BR>8. Work on rebuilding relationship with child<BR>9. Help more with child rearing and upkeep of home/family<BR> chores, etc.<BR>10. Take time to enjoy and spend time with family.<P>For W:<BR>1. Open and honest relationship<BR>2. Communicate<BR>3. Be loving<BR>4. Be more patient with H<BR>5. Encourage H to complete projects, tasks and assignments<BR>6. Get work done but not be a workaholic? Is that<BR> a contradiction? Is that even possible for a mother,<BR> wife and worker outside the home?<BR>7. Learn to relax and delegate.<BR>8. Take time to enjoy family.<P>Child:<BR>1. Reduce the "I want" requests. <BR>2. Do homework.<BR>3. Clean room<BR>4. Do household chores <BR>5. Give lots of hugs to parents. Hm.... mom loves those....<BR> Dad is a bit awkward with the hugging part. He wants<BR> or wanted a girl. Hm...... <BR>6. Enjoy being a kid<P>Hm.... seems like I have more of the fun stuff. Ok, delegate. Can someone teach me how? I am real lamo when it comes to that. I passed the Giver class with flying colors. Something ingrained at time of birth (mom's fault).<P>That's my list. <P>L.<P><BR>

Have you looked over the emotional needs questionnaire? Do you know what yours are? In my experience most men need practicalities -- for example, they are puzzled when we say we need more affection, but if we say we would like cards and flowers spontaneously but at least once a month, that is measureable and manageable. So if you could rate your emotional needs and then give them some practical substance, you may come up with the answers.<P>Notice his? He said he wanted to have time alone with you on vacation -- a practical expression of recreational companionship! <P>My list?<P>1) My most important emotional need is admiration. I would say that I need him to save his constructive criticism for a prescribed time, and otherwise think of something about me that he can praise every day.<P>2) My next is probably conversation. I would like a daily time, when he could look me in the eye while I ramble on... and I can ramble on!!! (15 minutes a day?)<P>3) Next is probably affection. For me, this is primarily physical but not sexual. This is a tough one for guys!!! But I would like him to initiate holding my hand in the car or gently guiding me by placing his hand in the small of my back as we walk side by side, kiss me when he comes home even if he has to come and find me from time to time.<P>4) Family commitment. I would like him to take responsibility for bedtime rituals(he tells the greatest stories!) This would mean he would take the lead, although it is a joint effort. <P>5) I don't know where this comes in... it fits many categories including family commitment and recreational companionship -- but I want him to seek and contribute to spiritual oneness in our relationship. This would include but not be limited to going to church weekly and socializing with other Christians on a regular basis, as well as supporting my efforts of training the children in the things of the Lord -- such as transporting them to their weekly Bible Clubs and helping with memory verses, etc.<P>

Not that I'm in reconciliation mode, but I liked Orchid's list, I think it sums it up really well.<P>Also, his desire for you to do less and play more, well that can work if you two work together, to maybe have him take on more chores at home and then free up some time for the two of you alone.<P>I know I can't go out and enjoy myself when I think I have a million things to do at home, and how am I going to get them all done><P>It sounds like he is thinking quite rationally about going over the lists and seeing if they are agreeable. I think you guys might be on the right track! With both people wanting to work like this, and counseling, you guys could have a very good chance.<P>You might want to post this similar question over on recovery and see what some people who are already working on it can tell you.<P>Good luck, Dana<BR>

Thanks all! I am just getting back to this thread since I first posted it. Kids have been living w/ me full time and it's quite draining. I have no time to myself and have been less and less on the internet. Kids are currently w/ Dad -- kind of a "I need help -- you've got to take them off my hands for a little bit" mode and I will get them back tomorrow morning.<P>Also admit, I have not had time to come up w/ my list on paper, although I've been mentally thinking about it. Tomorrow afternoon we'll be going over it.<P>Thanks Orchid! Your list is great. It gives me some good things to think about.<P>NoraP - We are doing phone counseling w/ Steve H. Our next homework assignment is to come up w/ specifics as to what kinds of actions/how we'd like to see our top 5 emotional needs met. A total wish list and not in terms of do we think it'll happen today (because I can give you that answer). Once we hear the other's list, we are to give Steve H. our starting points. E.g. My need for conversation might be that I'd like to talk for 2 hours just the two of us everyday, but maybe he could only start at 5 min/day. Whatever. Steve said any kind of starting point will do, but we are not to tell our spouse what are start plan is, just Steve.<P>It makes it pretty difficult. I can't even imagine starting anywhere on some points of his emotional needs.<P>I have built up a TON of resentment towards my husband since he has left. I have very little respect for him. (Note: There is no 3rd party involved, but Steve H. says the plan A thing still applies -- make it feel safe for him -- which lately I haven't really followed. I'm too pissed.)<P>Orchid - <P>Is is mostly women, because #4 Be more patient w/ H, and #6 Get work done but not be a workaholic would probably be for me as well. I consistently feel like my share of the work is not only more than his, but tends to be the real put your back into it kind of work where his is more play w/ the kids to keep them out of my hair so I can get the laundry and the cleaning done, the lawn mowed and the gutters cleaned out. My mom always seemed to be the worker in the house too and my dad was much lazier. My mom always had to prod him to get projects done to do stuff around the house. It was always easier for her to hire someone just to get some project accomplished than keep bugging my dad about it.<P>I definitely feel like when it comes to kids, for the most part, men cannot handle them as much as women. Classic case of getting up at night w/ a newborn for anyone that's breastfed. You're getting up all the time, losing sleep, even if the H brings the baby too you, H usually goes right back to sleep. Sorry men, I'm generalizing, but men just don't get how much work it is and how taxing it is on your system. Or at least that's how I've felt w/ my H. Bottle time and switch it around and men are whining about stuff you've been doing for months! I've had friends w/ the same experience. Women can handle children for longer periods before losing it than men.<P>Honestly, I'm not giving my H enough credit. He's willing to do things like that, however I feel begrundgingly. We have divided up the chores pretty equally in the past. H doesn't mind doing the laundry or cooking (back when we lived together). I don't mind doing yard work, in fact, I kind of like it. Gets me outside. But our tendencies are me being more "work centric" and him being more "play/relax" centric. I think we tend to resent that in each other. (I don't relax enough and he doesn't work enough.) I am definitely the organizer in the family and would like to see him initiate organization more instead of complain about it.<P>It's very hard for me to relax. To just lounge around in front of a tv or lie down and read. I'm a busy person. When I'm stressed, I've always cleaned, organized. That sets me mentally straight and clears up my mind. It also is a physical activity and releases tension for me. I actually have to work at relaxing like how he sees it, and almost need someone there to remind to slow down and smell the roses. I could see us balancing each other out well if things worked out eventually, but it's also what drives us crazy about the other person.<P>In any event I digress. I'm trying to work on my list tonight. If I had the time, I'd try to post it and get some feedback, but I feel like I'm on a deadline. I honestly didn't mean to procrastinate on this item since it seems so important to him. But this is the first time I feel like I've gotten a good relaxing break in a long time (2 months). Now I'm down to the wire.<P>Oh, one last thing that is really bugging me about this list thing. And I need to clarify, but H refuses to spend a night in our house w/ me in it still. Separate beds, even separate rooms. Doesn't make a difference. I think it symbolizes to him that reconcilation is a for sure, when he's still wavering. There is a section in his Sandcastles book on divorcing that says if you're going to reconcile make it happen. Don't go back and forth for the kids' sake. Okay, I think he's looking at these lists like conditions. To review to see if he/I think we can meet each other's conditions before he decides if reconciliation will happen. To me, that's such BS. All lists aside, if it's going to happen -- you make it happen. If an item on the list doesn't look agreeable to one, you work on it together to modify the lists. Much like the homework Steve has given us, you see what you can do and where you can start. The lists are going to be changing throughout our lives anyways. Again, I need to clarify w/ H, but I feel like he's going to use these lists to judge the possibility of reconciliation.<P>If he wants to be sure and not let us down otherwise, he's already crossed that line. From our talk last month (we meet monthly to talk big stuff) when he first mentioned reconciliation, I totally bit at the carrot. My eldest has already been taking about "Daddy coming home for good." She even has a month she keeps mentioning. She says Daddy told her that. I don't know what they talk about, but when reconcilation doesn't exactly seem like a for sure thing between us, it's already sounding like a for sure thing in our little girl's head, so if it doesn't happen, the seeds for major disappoint I believe are already planted. This business about not spending a night in our house is crock.<P>Okay, later. I have to go into work.