I am not sure how to begin this thread. After my last topic, I felt like I was collapsing inward, so I took a little time for myself, read a little in the book "After the Affair", and worked a little bit on one of my hobbies: showing dogs (I'm learning how to be a professional handler). Anyway, a felt a little better after that, my head was definitely a little calmer, and so the next night I let myself think about everything that is happening.<P>In the book "After the Affair" there were a couple of things in there that sort of struck a cord with me. The main idea of the message was that my H would not be able to enter my life or be a part of my life, if I did not invite him in. He can not step into my life unless I open the door. Okay--good point. Also, however I may feel, I need to talk out my pain in a way that allows him to be there for me. Once again--good point. Finally, I read ThornedRose's advice in my other thread that if I felt something I should not keep it bottled up; I should talk to him and if he got mad that was his problem. So, after all that it seemed pretty apparent that I need to give him a chance and talk to him . . . so I did.<P>Also in the book "After the Affair" there was a brief list of things to consider in helping to decide if you should stay or you should leave. The idea is that the things on the list point toward those who have a better likelihood to recover, and those who don't. Even though we weren't really at that point anymore, I thought some of the topics were appropriate, so I thought I would talk to him about them. FYI, here is the list:<BR>1) Underlying attitudes---does he say, "People get carried away with their emotions", "I never promised to be perfect", or I couldn't help myself"? -OR- does he say, "People are responsible for saying no, and I didn't say no."?<BR>2) History of Deception---has he lied about other things or had multiple affairs? -OR- has he basically been honest but this time he made a mistake and lied about it?<BR>3) Ability to communicate openly---is he able to openly talk about intimate topics, including his feelings? -OR- does he tend to close up, wall off, and clam up? Bear in mind, that I am responsible to create an atmosphere where he can share his most intimate thoughts, and sometimes LIFE does not teach people How to Communicate, so he may be willing to but may not know how.<BR>4) Ability to hear me and empathize with my pain---does he deny the damage he has done, pretend it doesn't exist, ignore it, or worse ridicule me for still feeling pain? Does he avoid making himself available to listen to my pain? -OR- does he acknowledge the pain that he has inflicted and is he will to change so it doesn't happen again? Does he make himself available to me so I can express my pain? <BR>5) Willingness to probe the meaning of the affair and take responsibility---does he deny that there was a problem? Does he want to pretend nothing happened? Does he blame others for what happened? -OR- does he want to take the time to find out what happened and why? Is he willing to change and grow and improve? Does he admit that he is responsible for the choices he made?<P>Anyway, sorry about the detour. I thought it might be an idea to discuss some of these topics with him, because in a way these were some of the things that were bothering me. So we talked about underlying attitudes--his and mine--and it seemed to be going pretty well. I moved on to his history of deception, and well . . . that's where I got the stunner of a lifetime. He says he has had other affairs before, throughout our whole marriage. Shortly after our son was born, he had his first EA, and when we went on our honeymoon, my son stayed with the OW! While I was pregnant with my daughter, he had an EA (fun hanging out with a girl in a bar), and they got drunk enough that it was physical once. My daughter was born two months premature, so while she struggled to live and gain some weight from the stress of it all, he had a torrid and physical affair (that to be honest, I highly suspected but could never prove)!!! When we started our business together, one of our first "big" clients was a restaurant managed by a woman he had a crush on--and she's still a client! I didn't know until last night that he had an EA with her, though. One of our employees was another EA--no wonder he likes to work so much! And then there was this last one that almost ended our marriage. <P>Here's the REAL kicker, though (as if that wasn't enough!!)!!! He told me, to my face, that at first he loved me and was in love with me, but shortly after we got married, he fell out of love with me and hasn't loved me since. Oh, he cared about my well-being and wished me no ill, but he did not have loving, smooshy, romantic feelings for me for the past 12 years or so!<P>What the hell am I supposed to do with THAT? I know that in his head he was telling me all this in a new spirit of honesty, and I have to say that I am grateful that he is trusting me enough to not protect my feelings and tell me the real truth. BUT DAMN! All those years I loved him, and missed him, and longed for him, and wished he would stop working and love me, and all those years he was talking to, hanging out with, and having affairs with other women!! God! I'm telling you, it's more than I can bear! I remember so many times throughout the years literally aching for him and wishing we could just straighten things out between us, and now I find out that all along he DIDN'T straighten things out between us because he didn't even love me! He didn't care!<P>Now, after telling me all this, he says that BS ("before separation") he did not realize how selfishly he was living his life, and how much he had that he was taking for granted; now AS ("after separation") he can see that he was a fool and that I have absolutely no reason to want to be with him or to trust him. Believe it or not, I think he really does feel that way, too. In some ways, I can see a change in him and in his attitude toward life and toward me. He says he sees me for the woman I am, and for the first time he DOES feel in love with me now. Can you believe that? <P>So, my head is SWIRLING!! I'm in sorrow shock thinking that all these years he never loved me. All these years I gave him my best and was faithful to him in mind and body, and he did not love me at all! But he says he loves me NOW. NOW . . . after his sixth affair and after more than a decade of neglecting me and after dumping me and leaving me and basically running rough shod all over my heart . . . NOW he loves me!! NOW . . . after sucking all the love and trust and life out of my heart and basically killing everything . . . NOW he says he sees my value and realizes what he has!!<P>I'll tell you what. I sure would like to be able to get on my feet for a day or two at a time without being sent spinning! I'm going to be sick! So what I want to know, is what do you guys think about THIS ONE? Oh my God, this can NOT be real!<P><BR>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

{{{{{{{{{{<B>CJ</B>}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Hey, I'm so sorry for your pain. Now with all of the new revelation, wow, what a blow. Is there anything to be thankful for now? What I mean, are you grateful that he has come clean? Do you sense a repentant heart? I have a quote for you...<P><I>You and God...<P>People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered; Forgive them anyway.<BR>If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway.<BR>If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies; Succeed anyway.<BR>If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you; Be honest and sincere anyway.<BR>What you spend years creating others could destroy overnight; Create anyway.<BR>If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous; Be happy anyway.<BR>The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.<BR>Give the best you have, and it may never be enough; Give your best anyway.<BR>In the final analysis, it is between you and God; It was never between you and them anyway.<P>--Mother Teresa </I><P>Hang in there... one day or one hour at a time! <P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited May 10, 2001).]

Oh ((((((((CJ))))))))))<P>Thank him for his honesty. Regardless of what it all "means" at least now you have some more information upon which to make your decision.<P>*You* do not have to stay in this marriage. Don't misunderstand me please, I am not for a second encouraging you to leave him. But this marriage is up to both of you, and you have to decide if you want to stay.<P>He has a lot to lose by telling you his past. It seems to me that he took a risk in giving you this information.<P>The thing I hate(d) about my H's lies, was that they were always lies that withheld information that I needed to make choices. It's a very insidious form of manipulation. <P>Your H in a way, is setting you free. He's giving you all the facts (we hope!) instead of filtered facts in order to control your reaction.<P>Honesty is my most important EN. I have no idea what it feels like to have that need filled!! <P>Take some time to breath, think, and sort this out in your head. PRAY!! <P>I know that every time I have <B>needed</B> an answer, I've gotten a very clear sign. At other times, when I just wanted an answer, but didnt' NEED it, I got nothing. By being patient, and doing what is mine to do in front of me right this minute, I eventually find myself in the spot I need to be in!<P>(((((hugs))))))<P>So your H has been in a fog all these years. He <B>couldn't</B> love you. Yes he chose to have the affairs, and he is responsible for those...but its not because <B>you</B>, CJ are unloveable. <P>Now that he has chosen to end that behavior, and chosen to love you, and the fog is starting to lift - he may actually be seeing the beautiful woman that he is married to.<P>Time will tell CJ. Patience.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

(((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))))<BR>(((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))))<P>I am late for my daughters concert at school, I will be back soon to reply. In the meantime, I want to send you a hug and tell you I read this. I have so much to reply to that I want to be sure to get it all in. Plus I sent you an email, and I'll talk to you later tonite.<P>Hugs, Dana<BR>PS I don't believe for one minute that he "never" loved you all those years. Love doesn't come and go that easily. Maybe not "in love" the way men seem to define that mushy feeling thing, but love is love and I just don't believe that. I'll be back as soon as I can to write to you, and I'll be home after 8pm tonite , feel free to call me.<BR>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I'm sorry CJ. I hope he'll make some gesture to show you his sincerity. But you have got to get something tangible from him. You've worked & waited long enough....<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Hi there,<P> Take a deep breath....yikes you must be reeling.<P> DO NOT think for one moment he didn't really love you ....what in the world kept him there with you?, he was not trapped in this marriage with you.<P> While he was having these affairs he most likely rationalized them thinking that he was not "in love " with you.He also probably had convoluted thinking that" since he was having these affairs, he couldn't possibly love you". <P>Affairs diminish the "in love "feeling pretty quickly(not to be confused with the deeper love),............ LU

Good God! You guys keep saying I should take a breath and that it couldn't be that he didn't love me all those years. Well, how in the world could he have all those affairs if he DID love me? He went from one, a month or so off to rest, to another! For twelve years!! That sounds like a fairly solid pattern to me--and it also sounds like the behavior of a man who did not love his wife. <P>Okay. I have the whole night to myself tonight, because he has a meeting, so I will breathe and breathe and breathe. And I am thankful that he was finally honest with me, but there is a part of me that wishes he would have kept quiet on this one! I know...I know...he was taking a big risk just telling me. I will try.<P><BR>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Dear Faith,<P>You need to step back a bit and give yourself some viewing space. Being too close to the problem can blur the issue. <P>Here is what I see:<P>1. Your H is talking to you. Not telling you what you want<BR> to hear but closer to the truth. Remember closer. <P>2. Why is he telling you this? You may not really know yet.<BR> Be patient.<P>3. How is this affecting you? You said it in your post. <BR> Your mind is reeling, you are weak, and sick. Anxiety<BR> attacks often happen about now. Be prepared. You are<BR> in shock.<P>4. Is there anything postive to this mess? Yes, based on<BR> what you find out in item 2. This could be the beginning<BR> of the healing/recovery process. But it will not always<BR> be positive. <P> My H threw similar stuff at me. His went on for 1 year <BR> and many 1 nighters while he was trying to 'find his <BR> happiness.'<P> Reality didn't hit until about 5 months after d/d = <BR> 19 months after 1st encounter = 8 months after last <BR> EA/PA started. <P>What did I learn? I had to allow for time (people in the fog brains slow down and have no conception of time). Be patient. I did not have control of H and could not always be around to help him. Some of my help really 'enabled' him and was bad for his recovery. I had to let go and watch him stumble and fall. This was his decision based on his actions. <P>His words did not carry as much weight as his actions. Don't let his words hurt you as much. Trust me. Even the OP's know when you are strong enough to pull back and watch. The OW in our lives made the comment for H to watch out for me since I had been so 'cool and business like'. Hm..... <P>Just my thoughts. <P>L.<P>

<B>((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((({i}CJ{/i}</B>))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR> <BR>I have absolutely no words that seem adequate. <P>Have you found a counselor yet? Not one for the two of you. One for <B>yourself</B>?<P>No matter what path things go down now, you need one. You need one to start you on the path to sanity and healing. You need one to remind you that you're a wonderful person and this should never have happened to you.<P>If it is of any comfort, I heard a lot of those same words from my x. A lot of us have. And my x's 2 or 3 EAs didn't help. And he says I knew these women and they knew me. <P>I just don't know what to say. What to do. Listen, if you still have my phone number and need to talk, do so. Meanwhile, I will e-mail you and send it. <P>I know this is a shocker. And I wish I could change it. You've been in my prayers and will stay there.<P>(((((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))))))

CJ,<P><B>MAJOR MONDO HUG TO YA!!!!</B> Sorry for the shout. Just want you to know that I feel your pain.<P>As far as your H not loving you, he really doesn't KNOW how to love you as evidenced by your being here. If he truly loved you he would be trying to get to know God so that he can honor you in the way that God wants you to be honored. <P>I speak from experience because my W has, by my count, had 9 adulterous relationships (PAs) in our nearly 16 years of marriage. This has occurred in the last 8 years of our marriage. Did she love me? No. Did she love herself? No. Had she loved her self, she would never committed adultery. I'm not sure she has had more EAs than the 9 PAs.<P>How have I endured? Getting closer and closer to God who has shown me how to love her. He has shown me that He was the reason I am still sane and able to love her still. When you are in the dark, you don't realize it untill you come into the light. <B>Please don't listen to the lies that Satan is whispering in your ear. He is trying to destoy what you have left. You have to continue to let God's light shine through you.</B><P>I know it is hard to go through what you are going through. Read your Bible so God can speak to you directly. Listen to Christian radio so that He can minister to your spirit. Stop relying on yourself because that is what Satan wants.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 10, 2001).]

CJ,<P>I am so sorry that you are hurting and that the truth is so sad..<P>But, I too am thankful that he was honest with you..finally..<P>And I would have to agree with you..that he didn't love you..How could he love you..when he doesn't even love himself?? It sounds as if he really doesn't understand <BR>what real love is..and like he is searching for something<BR>that only God can give him..but he's searching for that in <BR>relationships with women..and having been there (looking for that in relationships w/ men) I know that it's an empty feeling..but it's such an empty hole inside..he doesn't know who he is..or what he wants..so how can you be expected to understand and meet those needs? You can't..<P>One of my greatest needs used to be attention..I could never get enough attention but I looked at attention as love..I craved it..because I never got it..not from my foo nor from my first h..nor my present one..I went from relationship to relationship..never looking at what it was I really needed..<BR>just trying to fill that empty feeling I had inside..then I started facing myself and God..looking at every thing..and I didn't like what I seen..but I knew that I couldn't hide from it behind alcohol again..(btdt) nor could I find it in men..(btdt too) and most all of the men I have ever known<BR>have put a price tag on love..except one..and I know you all don't want to hear this..but I am being honest..and that was the OM that I had the affair with..yes, it hurt me when the relationship ended..and it still hurts..but I know that is the kind of love that I want..but I don't want it to be wrong..(through an affair)and I am content..and for the first time in my life..happy without a man having to tell me I am pretty..or smart..or whatever..because I believe those things about myself from the inside..and thats where it matters most..<P><BR>CJ, I think if your husband is willing to at least face the problems within himself...and you can forgive him not being perfect..and not having loved you the way you wanted and needed..then I believe that he can change..just maybe he'll begin to love himself..so that he can love you..<P>But, I'll also add...that if he says these things..and has another affair..then you shouldn't stay in the marriage..<BR>because then he's taking advantage of you..and thats wrong..<P>My prayers are with you...

CJ,<P>I really wish we could talk as I could better express myself and you could share more (I am a great listener). <BR>You quote from the book "after the affair", I know the book well (I think I own every book on this subject).<P>I can feel the stunning shock of this revelation of your husbands', and how you must feel. This honesty, however shocking, is important to your husband in the rebuilding of your marriage. I guess to come completely clean & really begin again with no barriers. To tell you the truth, I just don't know what I'd do. I do feel for you, and am so sorry for you pain.<P>You are always in my prayers CJ<BR>Petrie

((((((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))))<P>Please accept my apologies for not getting back to you last night. I sent you an email explaining my reasons. I think you will be very surprised.<P>You have gotten some great responses. I think still, he loved you in his own way, and correctly as maybe it was Rob who stated it, that he didn't know HOW to love you right. I just don't believe that he understands what he meant either. Maybe he THINKS he couldn't have loved you to commit all those affairs. But really with help , the right help, he can see that he has a problem, just like an alcoholic might, or a drug user, that we all have problems in life, addictions, whatever that we have to be honest about before they change.<P>I think that number one, no matter how badly it hurt, you have to at least give him credit for honesty. Thats how I felt when I found out I was betrayed too recently. I felt like, I'd rather be hurt by the truth, than a lie, and I'd rather hear it from the person who did it to me, than someone else. <P>It takes a lot of courage to admit those things. I'm sure he's even confused that he finally told you, but it must be strange to do that and hold it in all those years. I can't imagine, since I have never cheated, but then again, I'm human too and I am just as likely to do it under the right or wrong circumstances.<P>I'm sure this is an incredible shock to you. But, its now in the past. You have to make a decision, maybe after a lot of soul searching, and a lot of counseling, but at some point, decide, do you want this man in your life, or not. If you do, I am still confident that you could get over this as its in the past.<P>When my ex and I went to counseling for his affairs, (and I was at the mall and ran into the 2nd OW from 6 years ago, and if looks could kill, we'd both be dead). Well, when I went to counseling, we had to determine how and why it happened, how to avoid it in the future, and how for him to make it up to me (let me learn to trust) and how I could deal with it, and NOT throw it in his face , or hold the info over my head. We had to deal with it, then agree, not to discuss it again. Tough. In 5 years, I brought it up 3-4 times, but I knew I shouldn't have.<P>But again, this is too soon and too painful. It might have been better if he told you before he moved back in, but he's there now.<P>I know how your feeling right now, I really do. My ex had several affairs. It's not uncommon. I read there are 3 types of affairs. One, is the exit affair (like my ex), Two, is the one night stand (which some men have a mixture of these and the third type) , and Third is the mistress, where the man is a "philanderer" and this is just how he is for life I suppose. Again, I'm no expert, but recently did more reading after being betrayed...yet again.<P>Just like the harley's have said, the one nights are easier to move past, the soulmate love is not. You are at the end of it happening, and I believe there is still a chance.<P>No matter what you choose, you will receive love and support from us. And I know your feeling very depressed right now, confused, hurt, ashamed, etc, I just went thru it all again last week. Can I tell you this, it gets easier to deal with after a little time. To try too soon, its not possible. <P>The other interesting thing I read, is that when someone cheats, its NOT because the other person is better than their spouse/gf. Not better looking, not better sexually, its about something wrong within THEM, and its about who THEY are while they are cheating. Try to remember , this is his addiction, not yours and you can't take responsibility for that portion of it. <P>I'm sorry I didn't write back last night. I hope you understand, and my email will explain it.<P>((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))) You'll get thru this.<P>One last thing. I hate this saying when I'm in pain, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I do believe this. And a good friend of mine last week said to me, hey at least your not dying and you have all your limbs. And your kids are all here. Try to find something positive, and even though pain is so great right now, know that it will get better.<P>Hugs and love, Dana<BR>

Dana, very well put. you are growin g by leaps and bounds, maybe you should study to be a therapist. You are also getting the hang of this affair weakness crap, and now hopefully, you will incorporate that into your mandar to find someone who is mature and self assured to not succemb to these temptations.<P>CJ,<P>ESTJ, only into the present, meaning, very hedonistic, not much for future implications of current behaviors. Now the future implications of past behaviors are coming back to haunt him, and he is cleansing his soul by admitting to his past behaviors. Take this as a good sign, as an admission that he does not like himself, that he wants to let go of the past.<P><B> DO NOT TAKE THIS PERSONALLY!!!!!! </B> it is not about you. Its about his values, his hedonism, his place in life. However, as one approaches 40, and one has been very foot loose and fancy free, he MAY decide to become a responsible person.<P>However, because you are taking this personally, you <B> MUST </B> get some professional support, because it is hard, and if it doesn't kill you, it will make you a better person.<P>Now, as a serial adulterer, also called a "philanderer," it is very difficult to cure. It s origins lay in the misguided beliefs of the "male" gender image. It plays upon his insecurities in himself and his image, and affairs tend to boost his self esteem misperception.<P>You will not be able to be his wife and his shrink at the same time. its tempting, but it never works, btdt. He really needs to get some counseling. Why? because his actions are inconsistent with his MBTI type, which raises the issues that these are FOO issues, and they are ingrained and require his agreement to search out change.<P>good luck, i wish i had answers, but even if i did, they would be my answers and not your answers. Your answers you have to find for yourself. that's what professional help is all about, to enable you to keep yourself, and work on being happy with your choices.<P>

I just want to offer the only thing I have<BR>right now -- my understanding and compassion<BR>for your pain.<P>I don't know if your H ever truly loved you,<BR>but I do know that his affairs do not mean<BR>he didn't. They do mean that he is very confused,<BR>and/or angry and/or addicted and/or frustrated.<BR>Who knows what they mean for sure? I don't think<BR>he even knows.<P>(((((CJ)))))<P>

Hi CJ,<P>We're married to the same guy. He's been cloned!<P>I went through very similar stuff. Knew about one PA, he later confesses to many more, doesn't want to lose what he had all along...<P>I too spent many, many nights wanting him by my side, wishing he wasn't out there "working" or whatever he was doing. And I let him know it. That I wanted him by my side, that I was tired of being alone.<P>After he admitted all of his PA's he told me that he did it because he thought I didn't love HIM, that I was always upset and mad at him. And why, I asked, was I angry? He had to sheepishly admit, " because of the other women... "<P>I think that the love/didn't love explanation is just that. An explanation, a justification. They have to live with themselves after all, knowing what they know. <P>It's my hunch that in the long run, he will admit that he did love you. I suspect that my H is close to admitting that he knew I loved him, too.<P>Snow

FaithfulWife,<P>I hope this helps...<P>My first H slept with over 20 women during our marriage (according to him), and we were only married a year and a half! The first one was a day after our wedding. When he finally told me, he also said he never was "in love" with me, that he only ever loved me as a friend. He came back seven years after our divorce and wanted to have a relationship with me again. We had no children, so it was very simple to send him away. I'd like to think that maybe he learned something about what real love is during that time and he realized that he probably did "love" me. Oh well. <P>It took me a very long time to understand that it was not about me. Your H sounds an awful lot like my first H. He doesn't know what love is. It may be very likely that your H is not capable of real love or commitment. It is even more likely that he loved you with all he had--even if he doesn't know it right now.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>It is even more likely that he loved you with all he had--even if he doesn't know it right now. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>CJ,<P>Every so often Student has a way of hitting between the eyes with a sledgehammer. This is one of them. <P>I don't believe for a minute that he never loved you. It is a matter of what he is capable of. And all that appears in your writing about him is an immature, infantile kind of love. It just hasn't been a mature man - woman love. Your husband sounds like an emotional two year old. Student's point well taken, and is worth reflecting on.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<BR>