reference: Richard Stuart and Barbara Jacobson, <I> Second Marriage[ </I><P>1) "If there is anything we very much want in a partner, we should find someone who already has it. We can't trust the power of our love to create what is not there initially."<P>2) "We shouldn't marry anyone we don't love, but we should never make the mistake of marrying for love alone. "<P>3) "While we may be stimulated by people who are different from us, those most like us tend to be better choices for mates."<P>4) "Marry for yourself, not for anyone else."<P>and from Frank Pittman's book, his fifth rule, <P>5) "Don't marry someone with whom you were having an affair during your last marriage." However, this rule is not an absolute, because there are characteristics that make affair marriages work.

A friend told me this a day ago and I would truly like to know if this is true a quote, if it isn't I apologize:<P>Jacqueln Kenedy Onasis<P>The first time you marry, you marry for love.<P>The second time you marry, you marry for money.<P>The third time you marry, you marry for companionship.<P>Ragamuffin<p>[This message has been edited by Ragamuffin (edited May 14, 2001).]

YOu know, I've known for a long time that this was something I'd like one day. I figure there is only one thing left between me and being ready to fall in love. Finding that next job. I've thought that that is the last remaining hurdle for me to cross. <P>Not that I'm perfect. Not that I am through working on myself. I am, after all, still a work in progress. And always shall be.<P>I suppose I might need to do some reading and gain some more researched knowledge.

Thanks for the tips! I think they are right on target.<P>As to marriages, maybe some of us will get lucky and find money and companionship in our second marriage. <P>

At this point, i have just a few requirements for my next companion, maybe marriage, maybe not, but certainly commitment. and they aren't hard to match.<P>forget money, it doesn't buy crap in a relationship, just more options. But in reality, it is a personality match, a sexual match, and a true spiritual match.<P>go right for companionship, that's what happiness is really all about, right everyone? forget going only for drop dead gorgeous, they fade, and some women who know they have them, know how to use them!<P>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 15, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 15, 2001).]

It takes guts to post this thread at all -- you know that, right? <P>Well, I'll go out on a limb here. I don't think I'm sharing something that's news to most folks around here, but here goes:<P>I'm engaged. My divorce was final on November 13th, 2000. My fiance's divorce was not final until early this year. We got into a realtionship too soon, that's for sure. But we're here now, and are taking this one day at a time, trying to do the "right thing" each and every day. No, the beginnings were not the best way, and some have said that because our divorces were not final yet, we had an affair. I can't disagree... yet, I never saw it that way completely. Our ex-spouses both had someone else before we filed for divorce (and we both were the one's to file).<P>That said, the rules you listed have proven true in this relationship. My fiance is the complete opposite of my ex-H, in every way except one. Both are fundamentally good men. <P>My ex made many mistakes in our marriage, as did I, and we had hit the wall - the point of no return. Where we used to say how interesting it was to be opposites, in reality (and hindsight) it was the final straw on the "undoing" camel. We never agreed about money, childrearing, politics, abuse issues, fighting styles, psychology/therapy, and in the end, we couldn't agree about religion or marriage as a whole. It was awful. <P>Yes, the "honeymoon" stage is alive and well in my new relationship. What I do know is that we agree on all the things I listed, as well as having a similiar history (in regards to our upbringing, and ex-marriages) and, of course, we've never cheated on each other, which at this point in our lives, makes it a safe place which we both need.<P>I like your *rules* -- and I just wanted to share that I think they're valid.<P>

TOM: I know money doesn't really matter. In fact, it can lead to a control issue with some men. So, one has to be careful on that one.<P>New Beginnings talked about getting involved too soon. I have found someone I have really connected too and I'm concerned about the timing. However, it's hard to walk away from someone when you have found someone you like regardless of the timing. In my case, I met him 6 months after my divorce was final. He has been divorced 7 years. He is ready for marriage. I'm still not there yet but it is tempting when you find someone who seems to have it all.<BR>BTW, He is a great companion!!<P>

Good for you Jen!<P>Well, here is the philosophical question for everyone:<P>suppose you start dating, and you want to find the best significant other possible, right? but now how do you know if date #2 is the best if you can't go backwards? meaning you can casually date, and then date #2 ranks very highly on the scale, but you want to be sure, so you continue dating, but date #2 wants you to be exclusive. You may not find a better match, but you may.<P>do you date up through date#10 before deciding that date#2 is the best, and then try to go back? what if date#2 finds someone in the mean time?<P>I am tempted just to go with date #2 until for some reason it just doesn't work. But what if that means waiting a long time to be able to be together permanently?<P>my turn to be confused.

Hmmm, it seems to me that Date #2 would be a bad match if Date #2 isn't respectful enough of your emotional needs at the time you meet.<P>If you are feeling pressured to be exclusive before you are ready.....wouldn't that be a red flag to consider?<P>If Date #2 is a candidate for enduring love...wouldn't date #2 be willing to give you the time needed to explore your options and heal?<P>I don't think making a decision to be exclusive because someone else might snatch up your Date is really a wise reason to do so.<P>Just my opinion...and from somebody who doesn't even have a clue HOW to date anymore, and won't be dating anytime soon!

Interesting question, Tom. I think you date through # 10 and if #2 is truly right for you, you can go back. If not, then, for lack of a better phrase, it wasn't meant to be. I was afraid for a while that I might let a good one slip by me. That there would be no good ones left. THat is poppycock. I think you just know. If one is worrying about date #10, then #2 isn't it anyway. <BR>

It was a philosophical question, about approach, to debate.<P>Personally, once i go through any mess like this, i will have analyzed it to death to understand all ins and outs so that the probability of it happening again goes to zero, or in other words, the success probability of trying this again goes to 100%.<P>Well, i feel i am there with me, i know so much about me, what went wrong, what i don't like, what i do like, that i can explain it to any one, shrink or date#2.<P>So that's why i feel if I meet a date with whom I click very well, in other words, satisfies all the checklist, it is very hard to let her go, unless or until something changes or new information comes along to discredit my thought process.<P>So if she has alot of what i want, and i start by liking her, and let it grow from there, slowly, with time together, <BR>i would think that a long term relationship can be successful.<P>However, i also agree that if both of us are given the freedom to keep searching, but actually neither of us finds anyone better, that you are right.<P>OK, in order for that theory to work, date #2 has to be very, very different that X, we we must take it very slowly, and be open and honest, and test the relationship by comparing it with other people, dates or otherwise.<P>any rebuttals?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>So if she has alot of what i want, and i start by liking her, and let it grow from there, slowly, with time together, i would think that a long term relationship can be successful.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tom, I think you are exactly right with this one. True love takes time to develop, to evolve if you will. Relationships from my past which were most successful <B>ALWAYS</B> evolved from friendships first. Dating a stranger is always such an awkward situation in the begining and it's hard to really know one another's true self. It just takes time.<P>I have to agree with GSD as well that if you are with #2 and are thinking about what else may be out there (ala #10), then #2 might not be the right one. Especially if you are thinking this in the very begining. Even if #2 is understanding and supportive so you go out "exploring", don't you think that #2 will feel like you have just settled for her? This isn't like trying on 10 new suits to see which fits best. How would you react if you were someone's #2 and you were left wondering if she would return after meeting #10? <P>I know this is still just a theory, but if you feel that #2 could be right, why would you possibly want to risk losing her? Sounds almost like the "grass is greener" scenario so many of us have eluded to with regard to our respective ex's. <P><BR>Hey Jen! It's been a long time. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. I also have someone in my life and I know what you mean about not being ready. But at the same time, how do you pass up the opportunity to be with someone who seems to have it all?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited May 16, 2001).]

Jayhawk--<BR>I think that is the thrust of Tom's argument/question. Do you pass up on #2? Does it feel like the right thing to do? Is there a #10? (Or is there a #1 ?) Wouldn't #2 feel like a second choice if #1 were still around let alone a #10? One involves clinging to the past and the other is grasping for the future. Both suck<P>

gsd,<P>Are you trying to be difficult, or just pointing out the obvious?

Ya know what? Everyone's different anyhow. Duh right? <P>I met my ex on a blind date, married him six-seven weeks later. Lasted 20 years.<P>I met my fiance just about nine months ago, we're engaged.<P>That's just me.<P>See what I mean? Some folks will have to date a few to find out who is the best for them. Some will find "the one" in one or two tries. Some have long courtships, and long engagements.<P>Not me though. I'm different, and I don't think a 20 year marriage is a failure by any stretch. So, I kinda trust myself to make good judgement calls about that.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<P><I>Formerly 'new_beginning'</I>

Well, since i am not a DonJuan, and meeting women and going out on lots of <I>dates</I> is <B> not </B> my strength, i think i will just stay with bachelorette #2 on WIFTTy's version of <I>The Dating Game.</I><P>that is until something burns out, or the money gives out, or something gives out.<P>from knowing her about six months, she hasn't gone through all my tests yet, and a major test is coming up in another month, the jury is still open, but as someone here said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> this is a pow'rful thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what I am dealing with the most is the timing issue! There have been so many recommendations, statistics, etc. given about not getting involved, dating seriously, or married too soon after a divorce. Because of this, you doubt whether you can really find the right person during this time. Thanks NB for your insight on that. Everyone is different. Some find people fast, some slow, etc. etc. And, even those that wait still end up with problems. There is no magic formula out there. I was with my x for 18 years, I met this Man 6 months later and have really connected with him and can see us married soon. But, even so, I'm afraid to get married anytime soon because I have not yet fallen into the recommended time frame for remarriages. I think GSD is right, you can't stick with someone because you are afraid that someone else might not come along. But, I think if you have found someone that really connects with you on every level, how do you walk away from that just because not enough time has passed??? I read something on this the other day. I'll find it and post that later.<P>My biggest concern now is the children. They love the man I have met. We are now doing quite a few things together with the kids. My children are 4 and almost 7. The issue we are having to deal with now is discipline. If we continue to be serious and possibly married one day, how involved should he be regarding discipline? I have read that he shouldn't. I have also heard that is impossible. And, in any event, how do you deal with conflicts regarding what is appropriate discipline? He only has one child who is 9. I have two children. Dealing with one child vs. two, is a whole different ball game in my opinion. Among other things, you have sibling rivalry going on that can drive even the best parent bonkers. So, how does the step parent deal with that? Does anyone have any suggestions about this? When he suggests different things or says what worked for his daughter, I get defensive and upset. I also think to myself, how can he compare the two situations. One child vs. two. 9 year old vs. 4 and 6 1/2 years olds. I get upset because he makes it sound so easy. That he has all the answers and I do not. Has anyone else been through this?<P>Is this appropriate to bring up in this thread or should I post separately? I thought it went well with this topic since it deals with second marriages and most of us probably have kids. <P>Hey Jayhawk:<P>Long time, no talk. Glad to hear you are doing well. I see your posts from time to time. I have been so busy lately, I only post every now and then. Take care of yourself!!

Hi Tom,<P>Me personally, I can only have a genuine interest in one person at a time. That means if I am with #2, there is no way I'd be thinking of a "possible" #10. If I am considering marriage potential, even though 6 months is WAY too soon, but even so, I don't think I'd get any clearer of an idea if I were seeing all kinds of people. <P>I have a mental picture, or list in my head of what the ideal partner would be. We've gone over this on other threads, and if someone were to meet most of those requirements, I think they are worth the time for an exclusive commitment.<P>I think looking too far into the future isn't good either. Its better to take one day at a time and just see where it leads. We learned in marriage that even our vows didn't mean much if we were cheated on. So suppose your with #2 and very happy for a year. You think this is it, then all of a sudden you meet a #3 that is even better. It can happen. <P>Just my opinion, but be very thankful to have #2 and don't wonder about "what if", or "what about #10". Just be happy in the moment.<P>Oh, and I did probably date (casually) at least 10 people . Some, many actually didn't get past the first dinner! Know what I found out....most of the men got WORSE as I went on. <P>My feeling is if it's meant to be, its going to "be" and no amount of testing, praying, analyzing or changing will make it any other way. <P>Hugs, Dana<BR>PS What is this "testing" anyway? Speaking from my own horrible experience, I think life is going to give us tests that we will have no choice to go thru once the relationship gets going anyhow, keep it simple.

"Well, since i am not a DonJuan"......you aren't?!?!?! Just joshing ya!<P>" i think i will just stay with bachelorette #2".......yep, if she has kept your interest for six months I think that means something. I hope she does well in WIFTT'y's next "test".....I gotta quit this.<P>I'm (we) are on 7 months of keeping each others company in our spare time, wonder what 2 years (one of my tests) will to shake out. I'm dating someone who has been divorced 14 years, remained single to raise three kids. What, in my opinion has made a difference, is that we equal in earnings, each own our homes, friends in common, kids are grown, shared time at the hospital during grandchildren being born etc. Do you guys know how romantic babysitting grandkids can be for you while dating?!?! Changing diapers together, it IS fun, we've discovered!<P>Gotta go,<BR>Ragamuffin

Tom,<P>Great thread!<P>I have to agree w/Dana,I am only w/one person at a time.<P>I don't think about anybody else who might "be out there".<P>Hey Jen,<P>I am right there w/you.<P>Although I am not exactly in the same position as you are,I can't help but to think of all the issues that come along w/2nd M w/children.<P>I will give you some of my thoughts of what I think will make the difference.[what I wish I had known back when.]<P>So many of us go on the notion that when you get M everything will be ok,well,bc "Were In Love".<P>It seems that things aren't discussed about the possible issues until it is too late,then your emotions get in the way.<P>When after first reading HNHN and some of the other books,I thought it was kinda crazy when Harley sugested that you treat your relationship/M like a "Business/Partnership".<P>But I thought about it longer and realized that if you don't have the communication,talking about the issues that might arise,come up w/a POJA,then you will in fact have big problems.<P>Honesty along w/communication is what I believe will hold a relationship/M together for the long haul.<P>Of course the hard part of all this is everyone of us that has been here knows the "Harley Principles" inside and out,but implimenting them is what the trick is.<P>I will never go through what I did again.<P>I was a very poor communicator.......I know,I know,your saying Gina,no way,w/my babbling how could that be? LOL <P>I still contiue my counseling to work through me.<BR>When I get moved,I will find someone there and continue.I just go when I find that I am having a hard time sorting things out.[once every couple of months.]<P>I also agree w/the taking it just day by day.<P>I know that everyone of us will get through this and find the M that we dream of.<P>You all take it easy.<P>For those that are going to VA,see ya there!! <P>Gina <P><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----