Hi, everyone! I wanted to give you all a quick update, okay?<P>This weekend was a good weekend for me, because I holed up and read "Boundaries in Marriage" and did a whole bunch of thinking. Despite the fact that my H kept pressuring me to do this and that, I kept telling him, "No; this is important to me and to my well being to spend this time."<P>Well, I'll start off by saying that we did not fight at all this weekend. THAT'S a welcome relief! And despite his pressure, I feel like I did get my task complete, which is to stop the painful interactions, figure out how to protect my heart, and decide how I'm going to proceed from here.<P>The book was VERY helpful, because it reminded me that the only person for whom I can establish boundaries is myself--I can not control him. (BTW, a big hug and special thank you goes out to WilliamJ for starting me down that pathway. {{{{{Bill}}}}}--thanks, man. You are a true friend!) I can decide what is acceptable and unacceptable to me, based on my values, and furthermore, God expects me to protect myself and use wisdom! In reading the book, I also realized several areas for which I am responsible, but which I had "turned over" to my H and thus lost personal power, so effective immediately I am taking back those things for which I am in control. Cool so far, huh? <P>Next, after pondering it for a while, I came to the same realization that TheStudent and Bumper stated on my other thread: that it isn't about me at all--my H doesn't know what love is and may not be capable of mature love and commitment. In the book, there is one line that I thought was awesome, and paraphrasing here, it said that mature love was becoming open and vulnerable to another person--intimacy. (Okay, it's brief, but I thought it REALLY got the message across.) When I discussed this idea...this possibility...this concept...this goal with my H, he once again got afraid and defensive, and started to get argumentative. That is NOT where he wants to go at all!! In fact, I would have to say that he wants to AVOID at all costs the possibility of becoming open and vulnerable, not promote it. Since I didn't want or mean to "argue" about this topic, I just disengaged, but it was clearly a burr under his saddle! <P>Last but not least, I looked over and kind of "re-did" the Love Busters Questionnaire, and I discovered something interesting that explains quite a lot to me. Right now, my H has been heavily involved in four of the five LBs: Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgements, and Dishonesty. Meanwhile there have not been balancing deposits being made in my love bank; therefore, obviously my love bank is getting WAY, WAY, WAY overdrawn. Okay, I know that's pretty obvious, but sometimes I get so closely involved that I can't see the forest for the trees! That's why I need you guys! Anywho...even Dr. Harley would say that sometimes, in order to preserve the love that is left, a person needs to protect themself.<P>Soooo.....based on all my thinking and writing and stuff this weekend, I had a very, very short talk with my H (less than half an hour!), and I told him that I was going to establish some of my own personal boundaries, that I would tell him about them, that I had not taken responsibility for some things that I should have, that I was going to work on being the wife and woman that God intends for me to be. BUT, I was also not going to wear my heart on my sleeve for him anymore, that I was going to protect my heart from his anger and rages, and that I was going to "step back" from him until he could SHOW ME that he can be empathetic and gentle. <P>I would love to hear what you'all think. Any suggestions or guidance are GREATLY appreciated. BTW, if you have a minute, look at BrambleRose's post on Detaching with Love. WOW! What a post!! I was still attached to him and to his behavior, and I need to detach. Could that post have come at a better time or what? God's ways weren't so mysterious this time--He directly used an angel!<P><BR>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<B>(((((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))))</B><P>You go, girl. Take care of yourself. It sounds like you are doing some terrific work.<P>I have no idea how your saga will turn out - and at this point that doesn't matter. I'm just so proud of you for taking care of yourself. And for pressing onward with life, growth, and healing.<BR>

I think that this is the best thing in the world for you right now, CJ. Maybe by backing off a bit you'll nudge him into at least thinking about participating in the reconcilliation. I know how very difficult this process has been for you, and I'm glad you've decided to protect your feelings this way. <P><BR>I hope he figures out what he wants. He sounds awfully confused. Any chance of counselling? At this point, separate sessions with the same counsellor might be a good idea, if he's willing to try.<P><BR>Take care CJ....<P><BR><B>{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}</B><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

CJ,<P>I think you did very well. After reading this, the thought which occurred to me is that whatever the final outcome of your reconciliation, you have been forced to grow in ways that would not have occurred if you had not reconciled.<P>In terms of MB principles, we know that they can't solve everything but it is necessary <B>eventually</B> to get to a marriage based on MB type principles for it to be healthy. Thus I'm going to try to relate this to MB. First, even before meeting ENs you have to avoid lovebusters, and if detachment is required to avoid fights I think it's necessary.<P>I also think you sort of wanted to rush into the intimacy that you need and got blasted several times. It was your taker wanting to get your needs met, which is <B>not</B> a bad thing, but as you say he's not ready for intimacy. You have to keep your giver engaged, and the only way to manage that is to protect yourself.<P>The point is that detaching has to do with you. It won't prevent you from meeting his ENs insofar as he is open to this, but it will affect his ability to reach you and meet your ENs. You'll have a hard time keeping it up and will have to work hard to take care of you, but I do think it's what you have to do.<P>Those are the best thoughts I have right now. I'm at "The Three States of Marriage" in <I>Give and Take</I> and maybe I'll have more thoughts in the next few days. For now, I've given you enough to read lately anyway .<P>Steve<p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited May 14, 2001).]

CJ - hang in there. You sound like you're on the right track. Only caution is not to tell him what you INTEND to do until you actually do it. Ya just don't want to give any ammunition just in case you don't pull it off perfectly. Let him NOTICE the difference and then maybe say, "Oh yeah, I'm glad you noticed as I've been intentionally working on that among other things." I find that actions speak much louder than words... even though the words are in the right place.<P><B>STEVE SAYS:</B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It was your taker wanting to get your needs met, which is not a bad thing, but as you say he's not ready for intimacy. You have to keep your giver engaged, and the only way to manage that is to protect yourself. The point is that detaching has to do with you. It won't prevent you from meeting his ENs insofar as he is open to this, but it will affect his ability to reach you and meet your ENs. You'll have a hard time keeping it up and will have to work hard to take care of you, but I do think it's what you have to do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Steve, I find it very difficult to *give* when one's own emotional needs are not even attempted at being met. So, how do you find the inner resources to do this when even the Harley's say the result of a bankrupt emotional account is love-loss? Ok, you're suggesting taking care of yourself, which in any case is important. But a tree doesn't feed off it's own fruit... it's fruitful for those around it. So, where is CJ to get her fruit to sustain her if her H isn't there to meet them? Maybe from another source?... Ok, that might be something to consider.<P>Actually, I was reading in Henri Nouwen something about this... we spend a lot of time looking for our love needs to be met from the person we give them to - sort of a reciprocal thing. This is not necessarily the way it works... <P>The other thing I was wondering about what you said because I too need to do this... is how do you manage to keep your giver engaged while protecting yourself? Isn't protecting yourself on the "taker" side of things?<P>Anyway... just some random thoughts. Cheers!<P><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B><BR>Steve, I find it very difficult to *give* when one's own emotional needs are not even attempted at being met. So, how do you find the inner resources to do this when even the Harley's say the result of a bankrupt emotional account is love-loss?<P>...how do you manage to keep your giver engaged while protecting yourself? Isn't protecting yourself on the "taker" side of things?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In <I>Give and Take</I> <BR>Dr. Harley compares what he terms caring love with romantic love. Caring love makes the decision to care for someone even if we aren't getting anything in return, romantic love cares effortlessly because our taker is being taken care of.<P>Having to rely on caring love in marriage (like in Plan A) is hard, but perhaps you start by managing your expectations. If you don't expect a lot it's not such a lovebuster when you don't get it. I suppose it's choosing the state of withdrawal in our emotional reactions, but trying to still provide care for our spouse. Your spouse's balance in your lovebank will decline, but hopefully much more slowly.<P>You're trying to hold out as long as you can in the hope that they will begin to turn around. If the spouse doesn't change eventually, you may feel it necessary to take a tougher negotiating stance. If you've been able to keep up Plan A type behaviors you start from a position where the spouse will hopefully be more reluctant to lose you, and thus more willing to attempt to change.<P>Hopefully, by protecting herself, CJ can keep her taker at bay while she still is able to make some lovebank deposits.<BR>I guess protecting yourself is on the taker side, it keeps the taker somewhat willing to stay out of the giver's way for a while longer.<P>I guess the bottom line is that this is not a permanent solution, it's a "how can I make the emotional resources I have last as long as possible" solution, in the hope that things will change given enough time.<P>To some degree it's where I am too, but I'm getting somewhat more in ENs and less in LBing from my W than CJ is from her H. Don't know if this sheds a lot of light, but it's the best answer I have.<P>Steve<BR><p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited May 14, 2001).]

OvrCs,<P>Glad you mentioned Henri Nouwen. I just finished a seminar that used his reflections on Rembrant's painting, Return of the Pridigal Son. There is so much in that parable and in Nouwen's reflections that apply to so many situations in marriage and family life.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

Cj,<P>Sometimes it seems like our spouses need just a hint to get the point, sometimes a thunk and sometimes a bit kerwallop upside the head...I think yours might fall into that last category right now. Reconciliation is a 2 person project...if both aren't actively involved...it is survival at best.<P>I think the steps you are taking right now are important - because they will make you stronger...whatever the outcome. Detaching is pretty powerful when you actually really get there - I know for me - it actually came much later than when I declared I was doing it. The glimmer of hope can be a great thing but sometimes it's kind of cruel too because it prevents you from complete detachment which, in turn, prevents you from completely protecting your heart and emotions.<P>I am glad you had a good weekend and are taking control of your own emotional well being...I think it is a step in the right direction, no matter what.<P>Hang tough, girlfriend. ((((((CJ))))))))<P>Lisa

Dear CJ,<P>I must commend you. What an awesome post!!! You have made many valid points. It sounds like you are ready to step off that rollercoaster and work towards protecting yourself & your needs (plan B). It does feel better to take the 'giant step'. That step is bigger than it looks. In fact you are almost already there. WS just needs to catch up. I believe, when they see you take that step, they become painfully aware that you have the strength to go on without them. For some this is a wake up call for others, it takes a bit longer. <P>Either way, stepping off that rollercoaster is a good step for the BS. Unfortunately, it requires that we be emotionally strong enough to step off, this takes time. The interim time is where a lot of us stress out and make some mistakes. Not truly irreversable mistakes but mistakes nonetheless. Anyway, there is always a way to fix it and often the help is here staring at us right in the face. <P>Thanks for you good post. I truly appreciated all your research.<P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Good points by all...<P>Now you are on the way to having a complete plan for reconciliation...<P>I might also suggest the book, Divorce Busters...<P>Some very good techniques in it...<P>Bill<P><BR>

For those interested in thoughts on Plan A without reciprocation by your spouse, is Plan B ever applicable for a spouse not currently having an affair, and boundary setting see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/004249.html" TARGET=_blank>Mike C2 one year on here?</A> on the EN forum. You have to read a few posts before it starts getting into the things I mentioned.<P>The discussion is pretty thought-provoking.<P>Steve

Steve,<P>Dude--awesome link! I must admit, I think Karenna and I are married to the same man. heehee But one thing I was encouraged to see is that there are others out there also struggling, if you will, with unresponsive spouses. I've got to say that I admire Karenna and K and MikeC2 a lot, because I know they've really paid their dues. All this time when my H has been gone, they've been in the trenches Plan A-ing. <P>Anyways, thanks for the link. I wish there were more that THAT on the EN forum. I just get sick of hearing about sex all day long (wicked grin). <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.