I have a philosophical question for you wise folks out there. Why is it more "honorable" or "godly" to stay in a marriage that requires that you live your life without being loved? What I mean, is, why is it considered to be the moral high road to stay with someone who can't love you back? I understand the argument of "Well, you took a vow" but I wanted to know if any of you had an answer that was deeper than that. Considering that one of the definitions of "God" is that God is Love, it seems to me that loving and being loved is pretty important, serious business. Doesn't God also command us to guard our hearts? Do you really think that God wants us to live in a way that harms our hearts and our ability to love? <P>Just picking your collective brains, since I am puzzling with these same questions myself. I'm interested to see what everyone thinks!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

"Do you really think that God wants us to live in a way that harms our hearts and our ability to love?"<P>No, he doesn't CJ. <P>I'm qualified to answer this one..<P>Tex.<BR>

WOW! That one will take some real thought. For whatever reason I feel that I'm walking the moral high ground.<P>"Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil"<P>Many of our spouses have been seduced into temptation, speaking of course about affairs and so on. So I guess to me the question may be "What is the "Moral or Godly" thing to do when your spouse has took the devil's temptation?"<P>Good Question.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

CJ,<P>In answer to your question I am reminded of the whole Footprints poem...perhaps it's the higher moral ground because it is the time you are being asked to "carry" your spouse...until they are able to walk by your side again???<P>Just a thought...<P>Lisa<P>------------------<BR>I am woman...hear me roar...okay - meow...okay - purr? Hey, I'm working on it.

As far as being "honorable"...my problems personally is i see No honor is marrying someone, realizing you unhappy then, while still married, seeking someone else out.<P>Some people may feel different but i would have more respect for a person if they left an unhappy marriage alone.<BR>Not cause they have found someone else.<P>I dont believe in staying in a marriage if you unhappy, I dont blame my STBX for leaving if she was not happy. But i think she is a coward for only choosing to leave when she found someone.<P>------------------<BR>Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

CJ,<P>I can't remember where I read or heard this, but it is what I base my beliefs on about marriage. You mentioned that God is Love. From all we read, God calls us to follow His path - His lead. Although it is an impossibility to achieve it 100%, God wants us to resemble Him and His ways. His greatest commandment was to "love one another".<P>But God realizes that we are human. I think a big reason why we are here is to learn - learn about ourselves and more importantly learn about God. Our first examples of love are the "easier" kinds of love - that of a parent loving a child and of a child loving a parent. But as our lives progress, we are called to expand our capability of love to other people outside our families - first it is friends and teachers, but eventually it will be to bosses, associates and most importantly to love those who we may not like and who may not like us. I guess you could call this the second level of love.<P>The final level of love I believe is that of marriage. For I think that once you are married, you are closer to God than you ever have been before. Why? Because now there is someone in your life who is there 24/7. A roommate, a friend, your spouse. This person is most usually drastically different than you. And this person whether knowingly or not, is the one who can hurt you the most - even with the slightest word. BUT above all else, God calls you to love your spouse - inspite of their faults, inspite of their hurting you...... kind of like we do daily to God.<P>Not a day goes by that I am sure all of us don't let God down - yet he still loves. There are those who denounce His name, or don't even give Him the credit of existing - Still He loves. His love does not change because we change. His love is not dependent upon our loving Him or even accepting Him. We screw up and still He loves.<P>So that I think is why He expects us to love our spouses no matter what. He wants us to be like Him. Those are some huge footsteps to follow in - but He also knows that we are incapable of being truly like Him. I believe He is more concerned with our sincere attempts to follow His word.<P>Understand that I am now divorced (3 weeks already) and this topic keeps coming into my head. I loved my wife - I loved being married. From as far back as I can remember, I always felt "called" to be a husband and one day a father. Now I am faced with "If I truly follow His words 100%, that means that barring my wife returning to me, I should stay single for the rest of my life". I know, I know - there are many arguments to the contrary, even in the bible. But my sometimes too philosophical head keeps wondering if those passages in the bible were only the "humans" of the day trying to rationalize their human weaknesses.<P>Boy CJ, ya made my head hurt thinking about this!!<BR>Good Topic,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

I look at it as a means of growth. How can you grow unless you stick it out through thick and thin?<P>I came to MB because I still loved my H. He has fallen out of love with me and wants nothing to do with me at all. He knows that I still loved him. His love turned towards another, not his ability to love, nor my ability to love.<P>If it's a situation where the other person literally can not love or creates an intollerable condition (I'm thinking of imprisonment, battery, abandonment, etc.) ---- I can't fault a person for wanting to leave the situation.<P>Now when it comes to mental disorders, it gets really tough. My stbxh tried to use my depression as an excuse for the divorce. But it is medically treatable and managable -- not a valid excuse. I've never hidden anything from him. But he has hidden a lot from me. I didn't go into my marriage with problems, they developed afterwards. <P>I know of another case where the xh saw to it that his wife achieved the necessary number of mental hospital stays so that he could get a divorce and blame it on her. Her family is convinced that he brain-washed her into thinking that she's a horrible person and has all sorts of problems and deficiencies. <P>And then there's the sticky problem of what to do when the other person lies by omission and later you find out that their deck isn't full or their baggage is overly loaded.<P>Or when someone is severely injured?<P><BR>I look at these difficulties as God testing us. He is giving us obstacles to surmount.<P>Think about it, how many of you when you were teens can honestly say that you really loved your parents? Probably not many. Yet we love them when we are little and we tend to get closer to them again as we and they get older. And when we think about it, we rebelled against our parents because we knew that we could (and still have food to eat and a roof over our heads, and if we got sick they'd take care of us).<P>Why can't a marriage be viewed in somewhat that manner? <P>Parent and child....you love because that is simply the way that it is. It doesn't matter what happens - you can have terrible fights, arguments, power-struggles, struggles for independence..... but the love is always there. Maybe you don't feel it all the time, but it is there, underlying all the actions. You can have a door-slamming, yelling fight one night, and if the kid wakes up with a fever and rash the next morning, you know that someone is going to take care of the child. <P>Why isn't marriage that way? Shouldn't it be that way?<P>~Amy

This is one area that I wholeheartedly agree with the general concensus(sp)<P>Marriage is about committment....<P>I honestly believe that if you were to apply the the ideas espoused by Dr Harley, and do it to you fullest abililty...dot every I and cross every T, your H will start to drift your way...<P>Bill

The honor lies in trying your hardest to save your marriage.<P>No matter what happens CJ, you are a lady of honor.<P>The honor lies not in staying, as much as it does in honestly, sincerely trying. No matter how this turns out your honor will never be questioned.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

I would have to say a simple answer to your original question would be....<P><B>God never promised us love and happiness.</B><P>I see so many of these posts that ASSUME that a God of love wouldn't allow us to be unloved or unhappy. <P>In fact, the Bible actually implies in many verses, including the following, that you are to love even if you are unloved:<P><B>Matthew 5:46: "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?</B><P>In fact, most references to love have to do with our actions...what's required of us...not others.<P>It also promises (yes, we always think of the positive promises), that we will have trials and tribulations in this life. <P>Where did we ever get the idea that God owed us love and happiness?<P>I'm not saying a life with God <I>isn't</I> happy and full of love. All I'm saying is that they are by-products of living a life of righteousness. We were created for His pleasure, not our own.<P>This is just my opinion. In today's world, I truly believe Christians need to, yes, guard their hearts against makeing God into your own image. That's what you do when you assume that God want you to be loved above all else.<P>Aloha, <BR>Mrs.O<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>I have a philosophical question for you wise folks out there. Why is it more "honorable" or "godly" to stay in a marriage that requires that you live your life without being loved? What I mean, is, why is it considered to be the moral high road to stay with someone who can't love you back?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well CJ, to me this is more of a theological question than a philosophical question, and therefore my answer necessarily comes from a Christian perspective. Beyond that, my answer comes from a very personal perspective.<P>I don't believe anyone is entirely incapable of love. Oh, sure, maybe at <I>this</I> or <I>that</I> point in life's journey, we may not be capable of love, and I doubt any of us ever achieves the ability to love perfectly selflessly. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8, RSV) And so "We love God, because he first loved us." (I John 4:19) It is in being loved that we learn how to love. How miserable a place would the world be if those who had already learned how to love refused to reach out to those who had not? What kind of love would that be anyway? "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" is a poor sort of love...<P>Marriage in Christian theology is a symbol of the love of God for his people. As such, it is a symbol of <I>enduring</I> love. Look at the long history of Israel recorded in the Bible. Time after time, the people of Israel turned away from God. Time after time, they reaped the consequences for their choices. And time after time, God accepted them back when they repented. Centuries after God made his promise to Abraham, Jesus stood overlooking Jerusalem and cried "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matthew 23:37, RSV) Even has he hung dying on the cross he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34) <P>Paul said "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." (Ephesians 5:25, RSV) That's a pretty strong love we're talking about here. I am supposed to love my wife enough to be willing to die for her; but more than that, I believe I am supposed to love my wife enough to be willing to <I>live</I> for her.<P>In most of the discussions I have seen on this issue, the controversy centers around the idea that God couldn't possibly expect me to make such an enormous sacrifice. CJ, you ask: <B>"Do you really think that God wants us to live in a way that harms our hearts and our ability to love?"</B> My answer is "no!" But consider what Paul said <I>after</I> he gave his exhortation to love: "Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. <I>He who loves his wife loves himself.</I>" (Ephesians 5:28, RSV, my emphasis)<P>This is the crucial point that I think tends to get missed: faithful love is <I>good</I> for me! I am a better person for being faithful. I am a better person for being loving. <I>I like myself!</I> Further, through my marital crisis, God has brought me all the love and support I need from other people. I have become more aware of God's love for me, and more aware of my connection in love to the people around me. In experiencing my own hurts, I have become more aware of the hurting child inside my wife, and my love for her has <I>grown</I>. My greater capacity for love then causes me to reach out all the more, not just to my wife but to others as well.<P>Loving my wife and being faithful to her is something I am doing <I>for myself</I>, not just for her, and not just because I believe it's the right thing to do. I'm not making some kind of noble sacrifice, or playing the martyr. This is who I am and who I want to be.<P>Yes, I need to guard my heart. I sure proved <I>that</I> to myself! But I won't <I>bury</I> my heart, or turn it aside. I <I>believe</I> in my wife, and I believe in the power and the promises of God. I know <I>He</I> will not give up on her, and so neither will I.<BR>

My two cents worth?<BR>1. It is the interpretations of the Bible that cause confusion. (Okay, not so definitive, but...read it, and decide for yourself.)<BR>2. It is possible for your SO to love you, if you both are open to it, and you meet their needs.<BR>3. Want an eye opener? Read Hosea...that is marital committment. He was commanded by God to marry a 'harlot'. Yes, the whole thing is a parable about Israel and God (AGAIN), but there is a lot in the Bible about what we are all going through...we just have technology to help disseminate information better. It doesn't mean that this is all new. People have turned away from God, and each other since the beginning. They also have turned back.<BR>4. God does not want you to suffer. I think He will give you Grace if you ask Him openly, and accept Jesus as the Lord of your life, but that's just me.<BR>5. Hey, remember the bit about 'love without expectation?' 'Love your wives as Jesus loved the Church'...which by the way, at that time was the Church that 'decided' to crucify Him when Pilate 'washed his hands and sealed his fate.' (Okay, that was Mick Jagger, but still appropriate!)<BR>6. Ultimately, it is up to you, but you DID ASK...what's up with that? I think you know your answer, you don't need validation from any of us. Pray, and meditate, your answer will bubble up when its ready.<BR>7. Take care...you are 'deep', and that means you are probably vulnerable, which is okay. God likes that, too.

GnomeDePlume....(love that moniker!) We are simpatico, mi amigo...dead on! You probably know this one, but since this is RCIA, or whatever...http://www.restorem.org for those who do not. There is also one called "standing for them", or something like that. I hadn't heard ANYONE express that position yet, and I feel great about it. I think I was wasting my time mostly with Divorce Busting, which is great, just not all for me like this is. The best part is that I know this is right...that's why I chose my moniker...plus, it sounds better than 'Doormat', which is what I was being. Tomorrow, we go to the courthouse to start the proceedings. You know, the Bible asks us not to stand in the way of sinners, and besides, I hate causing my wife grief...I really do. I am getting the house, and 50/50 with the kids, no-fault, and no alimony. Too bad I don't get her...yet. I am starting a thread tonight, or tomorrow...drop by, I think we can be of mutual support, and benefit. God Bless. I am praying for all marriages that please Him to be restored.<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited May 15, 2001).]

<B>I have a philosophical question for you wise folks out there. Why is it more "honorable" or "godly" to stay in a marriage that requires that you live your life without being loved?</B><P>It is more godly because it is the example that Jesus lived for us to follow. He died on the cross for our sins knowing full well that we would not love Him back by sharing His love with others.<P><B>What I mean, is, why is it considered to be the moral high road to stay with someone who can't love you back?</B><P>They can't love you back because they don't love God. In order to truly love anyone, you must love God. What most refer to as love is really lust because it is not in the manner in which God designed it. Most feel the feeling part of love and confuse it with love which entails giving your all for others without expecting it in return. God show us this kind of love which in Greek is called agape love. There is phileo (brotherly love), storge (I don't remember what this one is), and eros (erotic/sexual love) the one which we feel and confuse the most.<P><B>I understand the argument of "Well, you took a vow" but I wanted to know if any of you had an answer that was deeper than that. Considering that one of the definitions of "God" is that God is Love, it seems to me that loving and being loved is pretty important, serious business. Doesn't God also command us to guard our hearts?</B><P>God does not ask us to guard our hearts <B><I>from emotional hurt. As Steve says in the following post, God wants us to guard our hearts from doing that which is against His will.</I> </B>that were the case then we would have no hope o salvation because Jesus would never have died on the cross for our sins. He set the example for us to follow. The Father would never have left Jesus go to the cross because we do not show Him love as you define it. We ALL would be doomed to spend eternity away from God which is much more intense than any thing we have experienced to date to include the betrayal that we have endured.<P><B> Do you really think that God wants us to live in a way that harms our hearts and our ability to love? </B><P>To truly love someone is hurt for them. Parents attempt to warn their children of the hazards that are in the world. Yet, sometimes the children go and do the opposite inspite of the parents sound direction. We feel the pain in addition to our children because we were unsuccessful in getting them to see the light because they had free will. The difference with God is that He has the power to keep us from doing things that are outside HIs will. yet, because He loves us He allows us to make fools of ourselves. His heart (figurative) hurts in the way that you refer to. He made us in His image which means that the things you describe apply to Him. He suffers when we do things that are not inside His will.<P><BR>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <P>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 16, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 16, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 16, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by professorg:<BR><B><BR>God does not ask us to guard our hearts.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Rob</B>,<P>I believe that the reference CJ had in mind was Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life." (I'm using NIV). In context, the meaning of "guard your heart" would appear to be listening to and obeying wisdom.<P>Since the topic is addressed to "you wise folks" perhaps that is enough for me to contribute .<P>Steve

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StillHers:<B> Rob</B>,<P>I believe that the reference CJ had in mind was Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life." (I'm using NIV). In context, the meaning of "guard your heart" would appear to be listening to and obeying wisdom.<P>Since the topic is addressed to "you wise folks" perhaps that is enough for me to contribute .<P>Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I agree with you and the scripture in that it refers to wisdom and obeying Him but not from hurt as CJ is referring to. CJ, I'm sorry if I did not state that clearly. When reading scripture, we have to keep it in context to what was meant. God doesn't want to be taken out of context any more than we want to be taken out of context. A prime example would be if someone were to take a joke about a fire in the building out of context because a person came in on the last part of the joke where the joker was yelling fire.<P><BR>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 16, 2001).]

WELL, I'm not coming from a religious viewpoint, although I respect those who do, like <B>Rob</B>.<P>I was in an icky situation, with some abuse, although I never thought of it that way -- honestly. My therapist did, my kids did, my mom and dad did... but I didn't. Until now, when I look back.<P>Now it wasn't "that bad" in that my face wasn't black and blue, and the scars were mostly emotional, although there was some physical abuse. <P>Some would say I should have stayed and "worked it out" but frankly, I was soooooo tired, hurt, beaten down, that I simply could NOT.<P>I think that's the time to stop. When you simply CANNOT go a step, even an inch, further. Only you know if it is that time for you.<P>Good question, <B>CJ</B>.<P><P>------------------<BR>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<P><I>Formerly 'new_beginning'</I>