Frankly, I don't know where to start.<BR>I see what so many here have gone through-really CJ. Right now, I don't know if reconciliation is possible. What leads me to think of its possibility is; My XH asked me if I would ever consider taking him back, and he has made it perfectly clear that he wants to "do right by me".<P>As the fog lifts, reality is setting in. Albeit not completely. He has come to the stunning revelation that he threw everything away for a lie.<P>He has been completely honest with me (painfully so)-just like CJ's husband. My husband being the devote Christian he was, at the beginning of the affair saw and even told the OW the "this is how men fail" and "this brings men down". But still he went after her with everything he had-not ever looking back. Until now.<P>He gave it all up, made all the sacrifices-OW just took and took and now XH says he is all used up. Our divorce was final on 4/30/01. He and OW were ready to begin their life together, or so XH thought. I could go on about he and OW, but we all know (although, I thought my divorce was an exception to the rule) that these types of relationships are filled with their own set of issues, problems, and don't normally last.<P>One thing that amazed me and hurt me beyond belief is the fact that he showed no emotion and acted as if our 13yrs together meant nothing, for he had found his true soul mate. The only contact he allowed me was for business. Wow, that was all I was worth. This "order" came from OW. <BR>XH was the controlling type of man, not to be controlled by others. Yet, he was amazingly controlled by her. What does this OW possess??? <P>We have been talking like friends would talk to each other. He thanks me profusely for listening and respects what I have to say. Putting aside the love we had for each other, my XH and I made quite the team. I hate to see what this has done to a once wonderful, successful man. He tells me that he wants so desperately to be that man again. He sees the part I played in his (OUR) success and how I always supported, encouraged and never made fun of his lofty goals. I tell him, he can and will be that man again. (with or without me)<P><BR>For all the realization, I think he still is having a hard time letting go of her. I am thinking, part of why it is so hard, is because of the sacrifices he made to be with her. Like he is still in shock.<P>I don't want to open myself up to more heartache-I don't think I could take it. This has thrown me for a complete loop, even though it is want I really want. The opportunity to reconcile. I am very confused right now.<P>I am sorry if this post is confusing you all, I don't know what the next step is. I don't feel comfortable even coming out and asking XH, what he wants. I don't know what I want and what is best for me. <P>I still love him, but is that all it takes to get started again? I feel pretty weak, and I don't want my vunerabilities and neediness to take over my new found strength and courage.<P>Help,<BR>Petrie<P>

Petrie<P>I'd like to be able to say that at anytime I would take my wife back afterall that is my goal. Though we've only been separated for a little while I am finding strength and happiness within myself. She, like your x, has caused so much needless pain.<P>I guess the only advise I can offer is take your time with a decision of this magnitude. Make sure it is what is best for you. Obviously you have changed through this whole process and if you were to reconsile you must be willing to take him back as the person he is now cause we can't change others.<P>Good luck, pray for clarity, and I'm sure that HE will lead you down the right path.<P>Love, Bill<P>PS: I don't know all of your situation but obviously he is feeling a lot of guilt. Guilt is a good thing for him and you need to make sure that you allow him to go through that process. I'm not saying make him feel guilty, I'm saying allow him to feel his own guilt. Without guilt there is no repentance.<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<p>[This message has been edited by LostHusband (edited May 16, 2001).]

Something I have thought about along these same lines, especially once the divorce is final, is that any thoughts of reconciliation at this point should be set aside. At least in terms of "getting back to what you had." <P>If you still love this man and would still consider him as being the person with whom you choose to spend your life, then begin again by dating him. Don't jump right back into the whole marriage thing. The marriage you had is over. Now is the time to decide if this man is still right for you and if you can find the strength to fall in love with him again after everything he has put you through.<P>I would also like to know if he has returned to your life because of YOU or because things did not work out with the OW. Basically, would be coming back out guilt, out of realizations, out of habit and comfort, or because he really wants to be with you for the rest of his life?<P>I would love to discuss further, but will wait for your response so far.<P>

Petrie - just let it be - accept what he offers and don't worry about the future for now.<P>You don't have to make any life altering decisions. You don't have to figure it all out right now.<P>It will become clear in God's time! <P>(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

I agree 100% with Jayhawk93. Begin again, as if you met him for the first time. I don't mean you can put what happened totally behind you or not pay attention to whatever was wrong in the marriage to start with. I mean to approach him and any desire on his part to reconcile as if you were seeing him for the first time.'<P>Take it sloooooow. Go to counceling together; talk about all the "issues" you need to; don't commit to anything; give yourself a time perior - six months? - to just <I>see</I> if you guys can even find common ground right now.<P>That's what I'd do. My H is 1-1/2 years into this and still living with OW. I don't think he'll EVER come out of the fog, and even if he did, he won't have the humility to admit a mistake. I don't know what I would do in your situation....I don't really want him back. But I still think, regardless of how much I've moved on and don't ever expect to be with him again, that I would have to give it a chance....at least for my own peace of mind.<P>God bless and good luck.<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Petrie,<P>Wow! Did you ever believe that you would be writing like this? I know I never, ever thought I would. He was so cruel and just dumped me like so much trash, and she was so perfect in his eyes that I didn't think he could even see me at all!<P>Anyway, I have some unique thoughts for you. First, it is a blessing to have a second chance with someone--don't ever forget that. There are many folks here who would give almost anything to even have the opportunity that we have.<P>Second, my H and I did it in three steps. Our first meeting, we just asked, "Would you be willing to think about the possibility of reconciling. Think about it for one week and then at our next meeting we will say yes or no." And at the next meeting all we did was say if we were interested in the option of pursuing reconciliation. You know, it is entirely possible that you are willing to consider it (with certain requirements), but he is not willing to "go back" but wants you for a friend. All we want is a yes or no. <P>At the second meeting, we both said we were willing to consider the possibility of reconciling (YAY!), and we agreed to just celebrate that a little. Then we agreed to meet in a week with our "minimum requirements." This one was a whole lot harder, because of course I had to actually think about the minimum that would be acceptable to me to indicate that he was serious about rebuilding OUR relationship and ending the A. I took a weekend by myself (with the kids) in western Colorado to think about this clearly. I also didn't want my list of "demands" to seem insurmountable--I wanted it to be serious but not discouraging, know what I mean?<P>The third meeting was tough. We went over our "minimum requirements" and basically negotiated them. Some were non-negotiable at all, but some were more like, "Here's what I understand you are asking for, is that what you meant?" For example, one non-negotiable was breaking ALL contact with the OW, and another was no OW ever. A negotiable was under reassurance: even though I was faithful, I "prove" my faithfulness by letting him get all the mail out of the mailbox (and we open it together--so no one is hiding stuff), I let him have my voicemail and cell phone passwords and email passwords, etc. As you can imagine, this meeting got a little heated, but we finished and reached an agreement!!<P>One thing I will warn you about, Petrie, is that it is NOT going to be a romantice realization of what a fool he has been and how wonderful you are. He will probably want you to prove that YOU didn't cheat on him! He will probably act like you are going to leave him. He will have HUGE guilt and feel awful about himself, so you'll need to constantly, constantly, constantly reassure him and boost him. Right when you feel like he should be pursuing you and re-winning your heart, you are going to have to give like you have never given before. <P>I'm telling you this, not to discourage you, but to show you REALITY. To prepare you now (a little bit) for what may lie ahead. Please, sweetie, look at this realistically and not through rose-colored glasses. Are you ready? Are you that strong? Could you become that strong with a little re-inforcing?<P>Last but not least, I concur with what Jayhawk wrote. You will NEVER, EVER have your old marriage back--it is dead and gone. However, it is conceivable that you could build a whole new relationship and marriage with this man. It would have to be built on the present and the future, though, and that's hard. Build something entirely NEW. I think you can do it!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

((((petrie))))<P>I'm late on the topic and kind of drained right now, but I think you got some great advice, and what Jay said is exactly how I'd put it on one of my better days.<P>Be careful,go slow. If anything, he really needs time to truly be ALONE and heal. What if you get back together with him and get attatched and 6 months down the road, he feels he jumped from one person to the next? I think if you start over, just casual dating and almost going about it as if its the first time again , might be the better option. <P>Hugs, Dana

I have to echo Jayhawks sentiments. Your old marriage is over. You need to start over completely.<P>I'm one of those ones that CJ mentioned. I would have given anything for my wife to utter those words. I know she never will.<P>All the advice in the world can't make this decision for you. Listen to your heart, but pay heed to your head.<P>No matter what, you have to look at this as a "second" marriage, if it goes that far. He's not the same guy you married, nor you the same girl to him. Very VERY slowly. And I agree with Dana, he needs some time on his own, and I do mean on his own. That means NOBODY else. Right now it sounds like he's using you as a safety net. Guard your heart.<P>If you've followed CJ's story, you have a bit of an idea what you could be in for. Very few people have the strength to do what she's done. I'm pretty sure I don't.<P>I wish you happiness, no matter what you decide.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited May 17, 2001).]

Petrie,<P>I am very happy for the new possibilities for your marriage. Needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly with Jayhawk as well. But don't be upset about your "first" marriage being over - think of it as a scrimmage - now you are ready for the big game. Not only will your "second" marriage be better, it could be more than you could ever have imagined. A friend of mine put it to me this way months ago - he said, "what a special opportunity it would be if you could fall in love all over again, with the woman you were meant to spend the rest of your life with". Really think about that! All the butterflies you felt way back when - the excitement - the warm feelings you both shared. What an opportunity...<P>Now the hard part. I think CJ is such an excellent example of just how hard the reconciliation process is and I am so glad she is open enough to share with us all her innermost feelings. It is hard - no doubt about it. Some say it is harder than being "left". But there is one reason why I have full faith in CJ and that is her faith. Her faith is the "rock" in her life and I truly believe that will be what gets her (and all of us) through the hard times. God worked on Moses for 40 years before he called him back out of the desert. I think the people who reconcile their marriages are supposed to be examples to us all - examples of what true faith can do for each and every one of us. How many times have we asked "why did that have to happen to him/her, he/she is such a good person" - I think it is "because" they are such good people that they face the hardest challenges.<P>So be strong and pray for strength. Take things slow and keep faith and hope in your heart. Focus on the love you have and don't be afraid to take a chance.<P>God bless you and your husband,<BR>MIke<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

My phone lines were down at home for 2 days and can you believe "work" has been getting in the way of me posting (while on the job!) <P>Thank you everyone for your advise and support. You all bring up very valid points. No matter what happens, having this possibility placed before me (however daunting), is a miracle. <P>So true Jayhawk, and this is probably one of the biggest ?'s in my mind. Is it ME he is returning for and the desire to be with me for the rest of his life or is it what I represented to him ie., support, encouragement, success, comfort. He was so willing to cast me aside and fog or no fog, he went through with "it". Now he is left a broken, spent man. And he wants to get back to the man he was.<P>When we first got together (I was 19-20-he was 27), mind you I still had it pretty together. He on the other hand was an alcoholic and was in a dead end job. I saw so much in him and knew what I was taking on, and with support and encouragement I knew he'd go far. Of course we were very much in love as well! I don't take credit for his accomplishements, but I know I had a hand in it & don't think he could have done it without me. In his de-fogging he has re-iterated this to me.<P>So, now, he comes to me again, in basically a similar position. Exchange OW for the alcohol. He asks me, Petrie, do you think I can be that man again. I know you can Greg-you are still that good, decent man. <P>You see, I still love him. <BR>I see the hard, difficult road ahead (thanks to CJ) I know I have the love and dedication to do it, I just don't know if he does. I guess that is what I need to get to the bottom of.<P>One thing in particular that Greg keeps (it's hard not to call him by name) telling me, is that he wants to do right by me-no matter what happens. He also said, Do you think that our relationship could even be better after all of this? <P>Please keep me and Greg in your prayers.<P>Thanks,<BR>Petrie<P><p>[This message has been edited by REJECTED (edited May 17, 2001).]

Hi Petrie,<P>Oh, it is hard for us no matter which direction we go in. H came home and is trying recovery. Bad days, good days, non feeling days mostly. He has been very busy trying to stay busy. <P>Meeting our needs? Not his priority yet. I have let him settle in for a couple of weeks and now he needs to focus on us. He says he does not feel comfortable being home yet. Of course, OW is still leaving messages. Real cute ones about how she sent him back. Boy she winner. Threatens one minute, turns on the charm the next, really psyco. Just got another one today. <P>What does this mean? Well all said and done. Actions speak louder than words. I truly hope your H can return and become the H you need and want. The problem is that they have learned different habits out there. Sometimes those things and traits come back with them. Depending how long they have been out there. <P>For me it is leaving me feeling confused. Since H is not really addressing our needs yet, the roller coaster is still running even though he is home. Hm.... Something to think about. <P>But I do want to be happy for you. Just remember to be cautious. You need to protect yourself also. You have learned a lot here. Now go put it to work and take care of yourself. <P>L. <P><BR>

I'm going to go opposite from the group...<P>Theoreticly the "old" marriage is over, that is obvious...<P>But honestly, is it??<P>Judging by what you wrote you are indeed a woman of faith...<P>What does God, as you understand, him say?<P>I know what God, as I understand him, says...<P>I also know what Dr. Harley says...<P>It just happens to coinside with what God, as I understand him, says...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. (page 74 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If the feeling of remorse is not actually felt by a (wayward) spouse, it is not recommended to have a reluctant apology (page 84 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMHO....Just because you are divorced does not mean you can't recover you marriage...<P>If my ex came to me tomorrow and showed remorce and some willingness to reconcile...I feel obliged to really think it all the way through...Something in my gut tells me that I would be willing to at least try...This falls back on my faith and the fact that I am not in a relationship...<P>So a little food for thought...<P>Bill<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited May 17, 2001).]

<P>Yes Bill, I am a woman of faith (thank God for that, otherwise I don't know what would have happened to me) Having faith has given me hope, hope for the future, whatever that may hold. Even after the divorce being finalized, my husband going after his new life with such fervor, and the cruelty shown by my husband, something in the back of my mind (God talking to me) gave me hope. <P>I did hope that my marriage could be rebuilt and that my now XH would come out of the fog, but I did have to move forward & make a new life for myself. I had to give it all up to God, because I just couldn't put my life on hold. The pain was way to intense and I was basically on my knees giving it up to the Lord.<P>I am so thankful for this opportunity. However, I don't look at it through rose coloured glasses. That is why I will continue to seek advise here, from my pastor, my books, and I will look into counciling (if it comes to that).<P>In one of my earlier replies to this thread, I gave a little background on my early relationship with XH. I would really appreciate and advise. And please feel free to ask questions. <P>Thanks everyone.<BR>Petrie

My thread got pushed way way down. My issues and questions however are very much in the forefront.<P>My XH and I have been talking ALOT. He has been doing alot of soul searching, he says he is dealing with an enormous amount of quilt for what he has done. He told me that if we were never to reconcile, he doesn't think he'll ever again have what "WE" had.<P>I really think he has alot of issues that he needs to confront. Does he need to seek counceling for this, and is that the only way?<P>He tells me that he was happy and in love with me, he loved the way I handled and took care of things and was always proud to have me by his side. He said, we had it all: Love, Sex, Friendship, Mutual Goals, and Beliefs. <P>Can all of that be taken for granted? Should I be digging deeper for answers as to what made him have the affair? I wouldn't trade the last few weeks for anything, as our time together and talks have meant so much to me. <P>I'd like to think that we have what it takes to reconcile. I don't think he'd be willing to seek counceling with me. Should I stand firm on that issue or can we do it with church, reading, and his realizations?<P>Just a few questions! Many more to follow. <P>Thanks <BR>Petrie<p>[This message has been edited by REJECTED (edited May 21, 2001).]

Petrie, if I were you, I'd insist on counseling. It isn't enough for your husband to know that what he did was wrong. He needs to understand why he did it, and you both need to understand how to deal with the aftermath. If your husband is too proud to get help, then how is he going to handle disagreements with you when they arise? And if he's too cheap to pay for help, or too busy, then how seriously can he be taking the situation?<BR>

Just a thought here:<P>You know how we see the WS make an about face and suddenly remember the marriage as a hellish relationship? They remember an entirely different marriage than the one we remember, that's for sure! First, it's "I love you, but I'm not IN love with you" and then it goes to "I never loved you." They are in the fog, and it affects how they remember everything.<P>Well, I think in many cases, when the WS come out of the fog, they put on the rose-colored glasses. Now they remember the marriage as perfect... and how could they have done such a horrible thing? The rose-colored glasses combined with the guilt - what a combination! Now, instead of WS being the perfect one and BS being the horrible witch - WS was a horrid, unforgiveable awful creature and BS was perfection and light.<P>It's as if they are attached to a pendulum and once they have swung all the way in one direction, they have to swing back all the way in the opposite direction.<P>NOBODY in any marriage was perfect. If someone met every single one of their spouses' needs then there were lovebusters of some kind - most likely never identified, but they were there. I don't mean to sound unkind, but you weren't and aren't perfect. A lot closer, probably, than your WS was, but not perfect.<P>I think the ideal thing would be not to dwell so much on the "reasons" for the affair, but to identify love busters and emotional needs and make a plan to eliminate the LB's and meet the emotional needs. To build something new, one needs the knowledge and skills and tools to build it right... one does NOT need to delve into all the reasons why it fell down before one learned how to build it right.<P>Just my thoughts on this.<P><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Gnome &Terri,<BR>You echo what I have been thinking. <BR>He looking at our old marriage through rose coloured glasses, and I don't want to look at possible reconciliation through them either. <P>This is where counseling will be so helpful and hopefully is something that can be arranged in the future. <P>As he is straightening out his life, should I make a suggestion of him seeking advise on his own? I have sought counseling throughout this ordeal and although have since stopped, would be willing to go again.<P>I really don't think he looks back on our marriage as perfect. I thinks he appreciates what we had (flaws and all) and realizes that he did have a good thing right there all along.<P>Petrie

I agree that building in the present is more healthy than dwelling on the past. However, you know what they say about those who don't <I>learn</I> from the past.<P>It's hard to build effectively when the required tools are locked away behind the doors of old unacknowledged hurts and fears. Good counseling can provide a key.<BR>

I think the most effective counseling generally involves both individual and couple counseling, preferably with the same counselor. This way, each individual has an opportunity to tell the counselor things they might not be comfortable telling their partner, and the counselor is able to get more than one perspective on each individual as well as the relationship.<BR>

Gnome,<BR>very good advise<BR>also a valid point for me to bring up with XH.<BR>Thanks