I've been thinking about this for several days...since Mother's Day, when my Dad tried to call me, and I had absolutely zero desire to pick up the phone or return his messages.<P>I don't have a conflict in my relationship with my Dad...it just really doesn't exist. He used to call me more often, but the conversations were a struggle - with me frantically trying to keep the conversation going. He hasn't called me at all in months now though. I suspect he's afraid...I know that he is very upset about what is going on in my life, but doesn't know what to do or say. I've never been close to my Dad.<P>The thing that is really bugging me (I have lots of issues with my childhood, so this is just one facet of the situation) is that my father has what I have now come to understand, thanks to MB, are emotional affairs. My mother and he are still married, and are absolutely miserable.<P>My father has alot of friends. Many of these friends are women. He meets them at church or at work, takes them to lunch or dinner, whatever...and maintains close ties with them. He is usually trying to fix or help them. (geez, I cant believe I'm talking about him like this, I grew up so fearful of him and I feel like I am incredibly disrespectful to even think these things about him)<P>My 19 year old sister died in 1997 from a fall from a cliff while at college. It completely devastated him, and thats when he started what is an EA with a woman who claimed to be her best friend (she was 35 years old, my sister babysat for her ) That's when my mom really started objecting to his relationships - this woman intruded all over our private grieving with her hysterics...and my father started treating her as more important than his family. He has never given up that relationship (she's married, why her husband doesn't have a problem with this relationship...I don't know) and lies to my mother and constantly puts her first. <P>And now I am looking back and seeing a pattern over the years...and realize that my mother has been dealing with infidelity in the form of emotional affairs all her life.<P><B>Is it any wonder that I married a man that was incapable of being faithful, and incapable of loving me?</B><P>I'm beginning to see that I have a very incredible anger at my father that seems to be growing worse the more I start to understand and learn and grow. I sat there shocked, watching my caller ID, and my hand just would not pick up the phone.<P>I know that my brother has tried to confront my Dad in the past to no avail. I think of my dad as a dry drunk - he doesn't have an addiction, but he acts just like an alcoholic. My dad thinks all of us children have turned on him, and that he is a martyr (he loved us and sacrificed everything for us) and he thinks he is a victim and we don't love him. We do love him, we just can't stand him.<P>It's true - we can't wait to escape when we hit 18. 10 children....we've all fled the house to distant parts of the country....I only have 2 siblings left at home, and the oldest one has been calling us other siblings for months...plotting her escape to college far away against my father's wishes.<P>Confronting my father is probably useless. And I am so very angry right now...it would be pointless for me. I'm afraid I'd crack, and just let loose on him.<P>I'm wondering if I should say anything to my mom - "Mom, what dad is doing to you is called an emotional affair, and its a form of infidelity..."<P>My mom is already in a 12-step program, so she is getting better and becoming better at relating to my dad. But you know, I cringe at saying anything about this...because she is intensely private with her emotions, and I'm afraid of causing her more hurt. I can't believe I feel this protective - that's kinda why I am rambling here..trying to sort out my emotions and what I think...<P>I am so angry when I realize what my dad did to her all these years - because now I have suffered on the receiving end - and I know what it is like. <P>I'm wondering if perhaps I'm taking some of my anger out on my dad though, that my husband really deserves. I'm getting very quickly to a point where I don't love my husband, and my anger with him is really at an exploding point. <P>So basically, I'm massively angry at the 2 most influential men in my entire life. For cheating. For selfishness. For control and abuse and all the mind twisting that goes with it.<P>Bleah, thanks for reading through my rambling if you got this far....<P>Do any of you think that you married spouses that cheat because of childhood issues?<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I><P><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited May 17, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do any of you think that you married spouses that cheat because of childhood issues?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I still don't know if my wife cheated but I don't think she did. But there are some interesting facts from her childhood. Her parents divorced after 12 years of marriage. My wife was moved back and forth between them, pretty much a lost child. My wife's older sister got preg. and married at age 15. Then she got divorced after 12 years of marriage and numerous affairs. My wife and I got married when she was 16 and our 12th anniv. will be this month.<P>Seems that in her family the #12 is bad luck.<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

My maternal grandfather cheated on my grandmother and even left her after she had their 4th child. He was gone for a few months but then came back and stayed. They stayed together until he died. <P>My parents never cheated on each other but my ex's father cheated on his mother numerous times. He also was verbally and physically abusive. My ex is exactly like his father. <P>I haven't figured out why I chose someone like my ex. For some reason I had very low self esteem but I haven't figured that out either. <P>Mitzi

Not in mine, but strangely enough there is in my STBX's. Funny, I never thought about it till now.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Hi BR,<P>Yep. I don't know about my bio parents. My foster father had several physical affairs, at least one before we were adopted, and two after that I know of. He brought one of the women that he met in a bar to my Mom's house while she was at work. Real hero. Speaking of character defects, when he died, I flew back home to make sure he was dead. I really enjoyed that funeral. I would have gone down to pee on his grave, but I was afraid I would have to stand in a line!<P>OK, I know that isn't very helpful. But it is the way I feel about it. An affair isn't something that just involves two people, it affects family and friends too.<P>The High Road: Your parents are your parents, flawed maybe, but still your parents. Think long and hard before you try to interfere in that relationship. What ever their lot in life, they built it that way, and they are still married. This would make a great topic at an Al Anon meeting.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<BR>

No infidelity in my FOO. Divorce is very rare as well. But STBX's family is full of D. His grandparents D but remarried, other gma went into great detail how her marriage was nothing but pity for her H (he died young)she did not love him, his parents D and his sister D. Everyone gets only one D in his family so I imagine that he will stick it out with wife#2.<P>Writing this down makes me feel that I never really had a chance. In his family it seems you have to have at least one D before you get to be happy??<P>

Hey all,<P>Yep,my X watched his Father have an affair w/his Mother's best friend,M her then D and then M someone else that he met while still M to the 2nd.<P>Tells ya a lot doesn't it?<P>My parents will have their 30th Anniversary the end of the month.They have been the best role models......they are eachother's Best Friend,Recreational Companion,<BR>Husband,Wife,Parents,Lovers.They have everything that I would like to have someday.<P>For now........I just keep working on me,and do what is best for my kiddo's<P>Gina <P><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

BR, i suggest that you counsel with someone to decide how to confront you dad. In Frank Pittman's book, he has an excellent section on this, and he says one of the "things" that will help everyone, is "to forgive your parents' for their human failings. They are human, and struggle to do the best they can/could, and come from a very different generation with very different beliefs.<P>I had that opportunity, and it has made a big difference. Nowe there was no infidelity, but there was my dad's selfishness of wanting his son's to follow exactly in his professional footsteps because he loves his job so much, and missed out on a career he really wanted, but his parents wouldn't let him. So us kids fulfilled his dream. Well, his careers were not for me, although it took me 10 years to get to that point, and i was angry at him, for wasting my time following him, and not having him support me in what i wanted to do.<P>But he did it out of his love, and i cannot blame him for that. once i confronted that, and him, we became much better friends. and he became much more supportive of me, however, i am the only non engineer in the family, and he can chat for hours with my other two brothers, but not me. i am out in the cold, different. I suggest that you read the book, "Private Lies" to understand the motives behind affairs, and how they get started and perpetuate. your father will be in there, i guarantee. (i was in there!)<P>We all are products of our past, we do not have choices of who are parents are, and what values will be instilled into our subconscious, its called existentialism.<P>good luck, and you will find that alot of us married similar to our families, because it feels comfortable, and we are drawn to repeat what feels comfortable.<P>very, very good start to understanding who you are and where you came from. keep up the exploration of the past, and once you understand from where you came, you can forgive yourself, and really, really move on to a more fulfilling life. take it from someone who has been there and done that! and it gives one a very secure sense of self, if you can forgive yourself and your parents for being human, and part of the human experience.<P>I was talking with my friend about that last night, and she put my experiences into words very well, "it was my time to complete individuating". my time to finish becoming my own individual, and it was really when i began life for myself, and as myself. it was a wonderful growth period, and it came as a result of saying NO MORE to my dad's career, and picking my own by getting my MBA at gradschool, and by starting over on my own, and making it on my own.<P>good luck, but this may be a very powerful self individuating step, keep going!<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 17, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B><BR>Do any of you think that you married spouses that cheat because of childhood issues?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In finding each other, my wife and I did <B>not</B> marry someone from a similar background. We came from families which were very different, but both dysfunctional in their own way.<P>My wife experienced sexual abuse, both inside and outside her family, anger and occasional violence in her FOO, and is fairly certain that her dad had one or more affairs. The patterns she picked up in her FOO cetainly helped cause many of our marital problems.<P>As to her A, I'm pretty sure that the example of her dad led her to be more inclined to have an A, and possibly even to think it inevitable. She has remarked that she "knew" that men age better than women and will in time discard their wife for someone younger, so her A was in part a preemptive strike. That I had such plans was news to me, but how can you argue against someone who just knows things about you without even asking?<P>Bottom line, FOO issues including infidelity were highly influential in my wife's choice to have an A.<P>Steve<P>

and one last thought, if all 10 of you are fleeing, then all ten of you should talk at a full family reunion sometime, and discuss to see if there is full agreement, and then possibly consider all 10 confronting the dad, there is power in numbers, and it may be a great turning point if done correctly.<P>that is if you all agree, and can pull it off with love and sincerity, but strength in numbers, sort of like an intervention, but too late for that, just a realization and confrontation of the past.<P>way to BR, you are well on your way to recovery.<P><BR>

My H's father was not only involved in A's, but also bigamy. While he was married to my H's mom, he was married to another woman 300 miles away as well. <P>My F was a real lothario, too. He had A's for 15, 20 years and insisted that since he was a man, he was "entitled". My Mom finally tossed him out after 20 years of marriage.<BR> <BR>The one MC that I did see was adamant in the belief that we DO repeat our parents patterns. My H has never been happy about how his F treated his M. When I point out to him that he has done the same to me, he vehemently denies it. After all, he was only gone one night at a time, not days on end like his F (!!!!!). I think that when he sees this connection to his F, I will start believing that his thinking has changed. That would be a big step for him.<P>As for me and growing up with Don Juan... that same MC suggested that I perhaps was just trying to take over where my M left off. Repair the FOO vicariously? After all, I DID know that my H was promiscuous (sp?) to the extreme when I married him...<P>Great food for thought, BR. You should be writing a book about this stuff!<P>Snow

Hi,<P>My ex has a 1/2 brother...a surprise who showed up on the doorstep at 27 years old...yes, you can say there was a history of infidelity in his family...<P>Lisa

BrambleRose - I don't know of any infidelity in my FOO but I know that my mother's brother is on wife # 4. They've been married over 25 years. We suspect he may have married her in VietNam before he divorced wife # 3 in the states. <P>I spent 18 months going to SAnon - a 12-step group for people who have family members with sexaholic issues - too much, too little, too many people, self-abuse, pornography, etc. This a family group like AlAnon and carries the same anonymity as AlAnon. It was a wonderful place for me. <P>Since I don't know where you are I can't help you find a group in your area but I can give you the telephone number for their international office. They could help you find the nearest group. That number is 614-833-3152. The address is 4813 Nolensville Pk., Nashville, TN 37211.

This is so fascinating. There was infidelity on my H's side of the family also. The more I learn about stuff, the more I realize that my H was simply an affair waiting to happen.<P>But the thing is...many of you seem to be saying that your WS Ex's family had divorce and infidelity....but not your own....<P>So what made you all attracted to a person with that kind of a background???<P>I don't know if I am actually going to interfere with my parents. Unlike my dilemma with my friend, I don't really feel that I have a moral obligation to interfere. I'm not going to do that now. I'm just acknowledging that the problem is there, and that I have a great deal of anger about it, and that it is affecting my relationship with my dad - and has alot to do with my life as an adult, and how I ended up in such a complete mess. I'm aware, working on the acceptance...not yet to the point of action yet...<P>You're right, as always Bumper (wanna be my wise old online uncle?) that I should talk about this in an Al-Anon meeting. I will!! <p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited May 17, 2001).]

<B>Cinderella</B> - thanks for the phone number...I will look into it. I more than qualify. Hooray, I'm codependent for multiple issues!! <P><B>WhenIfindthetime</B> - yes, I'm starting on a journey of trying to forgive myself for being a human being. I've already forgiven (so I thought) my parents for exactly the reasons you mention; they did the best they could with what they knew, and their motives were love, regardless of how damaging the actions. I <B>have</B> seen changes in how they raised my younger siblings....so that has been healing also. To see them actually DO better when they knew better. My mom played a huge role in how I turned out...she's not blameless in my childhood...but I have a great relationship with her now. It's my dad that really hasn't been resolved, and now I think I know why...<P>My father, to date, refuses to acknowledge that perhaps he caused any harm with his methods of "discipline" and he certainly doesn't acknowledge that his pattern of EAs are a problem. Even if all of us confronted him, (and yes, we are all in agreement) - it probably would do more damage than good right now. He'd feel attacked and betrayed. It would give him more excuses to be depressed, angry and victimized. My youngest sister is only 12....so she has a few more years to live with this man...so those of us who have escaped are careful lest we do something to make it harder on those still at home.<P>I almost bought "Private Lies" yesterday....had it in my hand...but put it back in favor of buying a second copy of The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce for my H. Don't worry though, any time I'm in crisis, I buy books. I've probably blown about $100 just this month. I'll get to it!!

My parents are still together after 30+ years together. No infidelity and my mom is very sick with mental illness, so my dad has stayed by her thru the worst conditions for the last 20 years. My grandparents are married over 63 years. No infidelity. I have never cheated on anyone, not even boyfriends, and I don't really plan on it.<P>My ex's parents, the mom and the dad cheated on each other. Remarried. Both cheated on new marriages. It doesn't surprise me that my ex did this, but he always promised me, he'd never do to me what he grew up with as a child, or he watched his parents do to each other. Unfortunately, he did worse.<P>Even now, his parents, BOTH accept the OW as their future DIL, and to me, I think its a betrayal to my children , which will be their ONLY grandkids as ex is fixed (thank God for small miracles, and OW is not really able now either).<P>Dana<BR>

Hi B Rose,<P>Not in my family but in H's. Both parents had A's. One for sure resulted in another child. In fact 6 weeks younger than H and H was able to locate her after 30 years. They look alike. She is a very nice person and has since gotten to know some of her other dozen siblings along with their dad. My MIL was in a longer A for much during our M and that is why it was so hard to get along with her. <P>Reflecting back, a lot of her actions & attitudes were like an OW (wow an OW MIL - what a combination). This lead to many conflicts that often ended up on our kitchen table. H who is a major conflict avoider usually left it up to me. <P>Silly me, the giver who thinks she is Mrs. Fix-it kept trying and trying and trying. Boy they must have been laughing. Trying to fix the problems but not the cause. Dumb dumb dumb!!! What an idiot I was. Like not recognizing a drunk when they are breathing in my face!!!! But you know I really led a sheltered life. I never had to deal with these issues and my parents raised me to always be nice and help people as much as I could. The part of the lesson I must have fell asleep on was when I was suppose to know when to QUIT help!!!! When the help I was giving WASNT working. No, no stubborn me kept plugging along and NOONE stopped me. Find Brick WALL - bang head til it bleeds. Yep, that was me. <P>Until I found this place. I now have a BIG bandage on my head and heart. Hole in the heat and stabbed in the heart. That just about sums it up. But still breathing. The doctors and 'counseling staff' here at MB.com assure me I will survive. I may have permanent scars, the hair on my head will grow back and the hole in my heart will repair itself. Maybe one day, I will find that person who will love me as I am. Right now, H is home but I am wondering if he is capable of that. See I am still in the Critical Unit. Not in full recovery yet. <P>My FIL on the other hand has been a big support. H is a bit jealous of how much his father has been trying to help. They have issues between the two of them that they must resolve without me. I can no longer be the cushion between H and his family. I used to have a lot of fluff but this cushion is now flat/squished. <P>Whew!! It was good to get that out of my system. <P>Thanks for this thread. I needed it. <P>You take care my friend. You always have a way that helps out others. You are a good woman. <P>L.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanaB:<BR><B><BR>It doesn't surprise me that my ex did this, but he always promised me, he'd never do to me what he grew up with as a child, or he watched his parents do to each other. Unfortunately, he did worse.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My W had several times over the years made the comment that she wouldn't be able to hide it if she ever cheated on me, that she just wasn't good at dishonesty. Only after her A did it occur to me "why would you ever make comments which imply the possibility of cheating if you are committed to your marriage?" I now think that her comments were a clue that she considered infidelity a likelihood from the start.<P><B>Posted by BR: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>But the thing is...many of you seem to be saying that your WS Ex's family had divorce and infidelity....but not your own....<P>So what made you all attracted to a person with that kind of a background???<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have mentioned the dysfunctional nature of my wife's family. She found someone in me who was gentle and valued communication. My family looked great on the outside, but I was raised by people who were disconnected from their emotions in the extreme. I needed connection very badly, and found someone who was attractive and needed me.<P>Basically, the degree of my need overcame my better judgment. I ignored the warning signs. Plus, due to my clueless FOO and the emotional pain and insecurity that I grew up with I was socially inept and poor at reading other people.<P>We were two needy people who did match well in some of our ENs, but had lots of problems. My FOO problems just related to other things than infidelity.<P>Steve<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Even if all of us confronted him, (and yes, we are all in agreement) - it probably would do more damage than good right now. He'd feel attacked and betrayed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>maybe, maybe not, you never know, and if it is presented correctly, by not attacking, and by concern, and in a group, the encounter may bring more closeness and healing by confrontation than you expect.<P>But i suggest if you want to consider doing this, you talk with an intervention counselor on the best approach. You may not even be close to that, but keep the possibility open, and you may find that both you and your dad will become closer, or that it will help with your healing.<P>This MB place is a wonderful place for those that use it for growth, and many good developments, and thoughts can come from it.<P>good luck, you are doing a great job at your own personal growth.<P>

BrambleRose - Definitely get Frank Pittman's "Private Lies". It is one of the best books about infidelity that I have read. He really covers everything, including the effect parents' infidelity has on their children. Another book that I read that was really interesting was "Sudden Endings" by Madeline Bennett, which, unfortunately, is out of print. I managed to get a copy through ZBooks at amazon.com. This covers infidelity and spouse rejection from a different viewpoint - that spousal rejection is sometimes due to misplaced anger - the rejecting spouse is angry with himself due to some failure or traumatic event, and projects this anger on the spouse, and rather than face it, rejects the spouse. The anger can also be towards a member of the FOO, which is displaced upon the spouse. She says that a loving spouse cannot make up for an unloving parent, and that these unresolved issues can cause what she terms a "bonding crises", in which the troubled spouse has an affair and then abruptly leaves the marital home to be with OP, showing elation at finding the solution to their unhappiness (the OP) while showing no remorese for the affair, and no concern for the spouse and children left behind. Not only that, the departing spouse continues to wreck havoc on the discarded spouse - emotional cruelty, financial deprivation, not honoring support payments, selling the house out from beneath the discarded spouse and children, etc. She gives many case histories of marriages that seemed to be happy, but apparently one spouse was angry/unhappy, etc, but did not address the issues, but merely walked out, most times leaving to be with the OP. This happened to her after 25 years of marriage, a marriage which she considered happy, and in which she was always very supportive of her H, and in which he never expressed his unhappiness until he left to be with his OW. Very interesting reading!!<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited May 17, 2001).]