I wanted to start a new thread, not to begin any lengthy discussion (although I know one will invitably start to blossom) but to respond to what you said to Sue on another thread. I have often agreed with you on other threads, and in the spirit of honesty, I must speak up and disagree with you vehemently.<P>Yup, she made a joke. It was funny. You know why? Because it was true. I chuckled, as did many others I am sure. You cannot expect to have such extreme views and express your opinions so frequently, strongly, and with such biting sarcasm as not to develop a reputation. You do indeed have a reputation, one that you created yourself. Please understand that I am not attacking you or your views, for I have never done that. But you must know that if you sleep with the entire football team, don't expect the cheerleaders not to make a joke or two.<P>[This message has been edited by gsd (edited May 20, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by gsd (edited May 20, 2001).]

gsd,<P>I suppose I have created a reputation for myself. I have a reputation of insisting that<P>1) people get a divorce before dating<BR>2) they consider their children's needs first after a divorce, instead of soothing their loneliness by jumping into "dating" right away<BR>3) they date with reverence and caring for the other person, instead of using them to prop up their ego or use another person to help them heal.<P>Yes, I am very vehement about these opinions. The fact that these are considered "extreme" views is pretty scary. <P>It is not *I* that has slept with the entire football team, sweetie. In fact, I believe the people who are making fun of me are the ones who have. Go ahead and make fun of me. It says more about you than it does about me. You haven't seen me use other's names to get a laugh, now have you? <P>I think I deserve an apology, actually. I hadn't posted anything on that thread and my name was brought up for a cheap laugh. It was mean spirited and uncalled for. Then they profess to "wish me happiness". Right. I won't be so two faced. I don't wish happiness to anyone who has to take cheap advantage of someone else in order to garner support. <P>'nuf said.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 20, 2001).]

gsd,<BR>I read this post before TheStudent responded, and my first thought was that the football team analogy was about as inappropriate as it could possibly be. It makes absolutely no sense and is completely out of context. I went to look for TheStudent's posts to see what how it could possibly relate to anything she may have said, but did not find the answer.<P>As I have said before, the divorcing/divorced board has shown a disturbing tendency to be the antithesis of marriage-building. <P>It was extremely rude for Sue to make a joke at TheStudent's expense.

Nellie,<P>I went back and edited some of the comments I made in WIFTTs thread. Mostly it was quotes from "The Road Less Travelled", which can be found on another thread. Mostly along the lines of "love is not a feeling" stuff that lots of people seem to object to here. <P>I hope you and your children are doing well, Nellie. I think about you often. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 20, 2001).]

TheStudent,<P>Thanks for thinking of me and the kids. I guess we are doing as well as can be expected considering that I can't find anywhere to live that I can afford...<P>I apparently missed the post before you edited it. I can think of several people about whom the football team analogy may have been apropos, though rude, but it was so completely not apropos in reference to the views you have expressed that it made no sense.

Nellie, I really think the football analogy was taken out of context here and knowing the reputation of TS “flaming” people on this board, it was well deserved. I don’t think it eluded to TS being a “friendly” with the guys (heck, she’s the poster child for celibacy last I knew) rather, it was just calling attention to the fact that she has been adamant on MANY topics and has built that reputation for herself. I don’t know how far back you researched on posts by TS, but she has offended many over time.<P>TS, Obviously, there is no love lost between you and me. There are certain topics where you and I will never agree, but you have caused this animosity all on your own. And in case you were not already aware, your reputation out here proceeds you. True that you have always stood by your three contentions listed above, but you have also insulted, ridiculed, flamed, called attention to, and basically just been rude to countless people in the process of upholding your views and speaking your mind. Maybe I am being hypocritical here as I am trying not to offend you, but you should accept responsibility for your past actions on this board.<P>Now personally, I took no offense to either Sue’s initial comment or GSD’s follow-up comment, mainly because I agreed with both of them, but you can’t be offensive for long periods of time and expect people to forget. Maybe Sue shouldn’t have brought your name into the thread in the manner in which she did and maybe GSD shouldn’t have called attention to it, but what do you expect? You can talk and defend your motives, but when it comes right down to it, I think you are smart enough to know what you are saying and how people will react to it. <P>Now how does the old saying go? Oh yes, “you made your bed, now go lie in it.” <BR>

Well, I guess I finally got someone pissed off at me here. Not my intention by a long shot. In fact I hate controversy. Call me crazy. My analogy? I think it is appropriate as far as reputations go. Don’t take it out of context and apply it to real life extra marital sexual experiences, please. We are talking about reputations and what is involved in them. That is all. <P>TS—you must know that you tick people off, like controversy, and enjoy a good debate. What you also like is pushing buttons. I am calling this like I see it. Why else would you claim to question the purpose of a D/D board yet frequent it so much? And then seek out every thread relating to dating and the like? To create converts? No, to create controversy. You enjoy a heated debate, and while there is nothing wrong with that, you really do get sarcastic too often than not and keep coming back for more. Again, I go back to my analogy. <P>I also think that this board is a great forum for healing, growth, and yes, building marriages…maybe second ones. Dating, insecurity, love, pain, sexual attraction, family issues, second marriages, and new relationships are part of the divorce experience and I applaud those that have the courage to come here and ask for help and support regarding these new issues. This is new and scary territory for us. It IS a part of divorce recovery, and that is a key part of this entire site. <BR>

Well, I hope this ends up somewhere productive, affirmative and appreciative of the differences in perspectives and not languishing down insults lane...<P>Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron so one wo/man sharpens another." <P>Let's try NOT to take things <B>personally</B> and let's focus on the issue(s)... Please! <P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited May 20, 2001).]

hmmmmmm.....I reckon if we call out another by name we ought to expect to be replied to in kind...Often times things get taken out of context, that is a given...What do we do about this?? Maybe think before we speak...<P>I will say this in defence of TS...I have been reading and replying to her posts going on 18 months...As far as I can recall she has never wavered in her opinions and ideals...Yet we take offence to them? Why? Maybe she steps on a few toes...ok she steps on a lot of toes...I know that I get hurt when mine get stepped on but then I think maybe I ought not have been sticking them out there to be stepped on...<P>No one likes being called out on for their crap, only someone that really cares calls another out...<P>Like it or not TheStudent makes us think.<P>I know my own hypocracies in life and I alone pay the tab for them...It sucks to have them pointed out by another and a wince when it happens...But upon reflection I am grateful that it is done to me, because I can make changes and attempt to live more at ease with myself...<P>Before anyone gets pushed out of shape I in no way am calling anyone a hipocrate...I used that as my own personal metephore...<P>My point being we need those who are adimate about their views and call us to task on our behavious and check our motives for our actions...TS isn't the only one that does this I can think of several others that do but she has the balls(pardon the metephore TS ) to stick her neck into the melle and shout her opinion...<P>I don't recall her resorting to namecalling or direct insults to make a point...Some will of course disagree on this and that's ok...This is just how I see it <P>Pardon the misspells and typos as I am sufferinf yet another night of insomnia...<P>Bill

gsd and Jayhawk,<P>My values and opinions are self-explanatory and require no defense or apologies. Go ahead and make fun of me. Go ahead and keep justifying it to yourself. It only illustrates your character even more.<P>WilliamJ,<BR>Thanks friend. I'll learn to dance one of these days <P>Nellie,<BR>I'm sorry to hear you haven't found a stable place to live. I could say I know how you feel, but I don't. Where I live in Atlanta is pretty unstable, but I don't have 6 kids to support. I really do think about you very often and you have my utmost respect. Always have. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>gsd and Jayhawk,<P>My values and opinions are self-explanatory and require no defense or apologies. Go ahead and make fun of me. Go ahead and keep justifying it to yourself. <I>It only illustrates your character even more.</I> <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that's a perfect example of why this thread exists in the first place. It's one thing to call people on their behavior, it's quite another to add barbs to reinforce your superiority.<P>You should remember that the rest of have feelings, even if you don't, and the rest of us aren't perfect either...<P>I certainly wish you happiness Stu, I just wish you could find it without ridiculing others...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

I never insulted your character, Stu. Nor was I making fun of you. Neither was Jayhawk. I guess you see it that way, though that was not my intention. All I was doing was saying exactly what WilliamJ said in his first line. I never once made a judgement about you the person. <P>(And yes, WilliamJ, there have been insults, thinly veiled behind sarcasm and wit. )

TS, Thanks for putting a smile on my face so early in the morning That's a difficult thing to do and you succeeded with flying colors!<P>BTW, I don't ever recall making fun of you. I was merely calling an apple an apple and an orange an orange, but you already know that. <P>Taking a page from William J, if you got your toes stepped on Stu, maybe you should have watched where you put them.<P>So, attack my character if you will, but against those who truly know me, you'll never win that battle.

Well, my intention was not to "make fun" of anyone. It was meant because the last time I did post here, Student reamed me a new one and I feel she seems to have it out for me. <P>So, wanting to share, I hoped she would not come on there and personally attack me as she has done to me in the past, as she has done others. But, once again, she did, but it doesn't bother me anymore. <P>Aagin, there was no malice on my part, but as gsd and Jayhawk have said, sometimes the personal attacks like she has done to me, Dana, New Beginnings, etc, are just uncalled for. <P>Wm and Nellie, I believe she has a great deal to contribute, she is bright and intelligent but as she has pointed out many times, is going through some rough spots in her life as we all are. I do hope she finds happiness, after all we have been through here on this board, we ALL do!!<P>If we disagree, then we disagree. In my mind, it is a no win situation but I do feel I have something to contribute to this board, so I will. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Cooker,<P>"I certainly wish you happiness Stu"<P>I'd like to think that you do. But I kinda guess that you throw that in just to soften the "blow", bless your heart. <P>"...I just wish you could find it without ridiculing others..."<P>Oh, PLEASE tell this to Sue and her buddies!<P>GSD,<BR>"But you must know that if you sleep with the entire football team, don't expect the cheerleaders not to make a joke or two."<P>"I never insulted your character, Stu."<P>Wow. Did both of these statements come from the same person? Even on the SAME thread nonetheless... <P>Jayhawk,<BR>"BTW, I don't ever recall making fun of you."<BR>No, but you are defending two people who are, and that is the same thing in my book. <P>"Taking a page from William J, if you got your toes stepped on Stu, maybe you should have watched where you put them."<P>My toes aren't stepped on. I know my views don't make me popular and I don't apologize for my opinions. The fact that my views are considered so extreme are why I rarely come to this site anymore. Like you and GSD, Sue likes to occasionally admonish me for my "harsh ways"--but not because she is trying to help me. <P>The fact that she went out of her way to mention my name in order to gather support for herself and prop up her ego (and get a cheap laugh at my expense while she was at it), without provocation on my part or even my presence here, shows me that my past assessment is right on the mark. <P>Just for the record, I've admitted many times that my words have been too harsh and that I could stand to take some lessons in tact. <P>I see that you just posted Sue. I guess you've forgotten the time I apologized to you in the past. You were making fun of me, but like so often, you always claim to have the best of intentions. Sorry, I don't buy it. Admit it. You have fun tossing my name out there and giving these folks something to play with. Even if I had chosen not to "bite", you still would have had a good laugh at my expense huh? <P>I am not OUT for you Sue. You are the one who brought up my name. You invited ME. <P>"I do hope she finds happiness"<P>Puleeze spare me the two-faced well-wishing. Now THAT is insulting. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

William J,<P>"I have been reading and replying to her posts going on 18 months...As far as I can recall she has never wavered in her opinions and ideals..." Which is comendable, so is negotiating, which is going to be awfully hard to do if you aren't open and learn from others as well.<P>"only someone that really cares calls another out..."<P>That says it all. Like I said in the other thread, negativity eventually burns itself out.<P>Ragamuffin<BR>

Bitterness has a wonderful way of revealing itself through the subtleties of language.

TS, <P>One more thing I’d like to call to YOUR attention:<P>When I was contacted a few months back by the administration asking if I felt uncomfortable voicing my thoughts out of fear of being flamed by a “certain” member of the MB community who has a reputation for such things, I actually defended YOU and YOUR views. I think I mentioned something about you lacking a bit of tact, but that your opinions and insights were valuable as a whole to the board.<P>Even if you and I don’t see things the same way, I saw no reason to ask for any actions to be taken against you.<P>And YOU question MY character?<P>Amazing. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Cooker,<P>"I certainly wish you happiness Stu"<P>I'd like to think that you do. But I kinda guess that you throw that in just to soften the "blow", bless your heart.... <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know I honestly agree with your positions on dating after a divorce, etc. But there just isn't any way your position can be the "be all end all" for every single person whose relationship has ended. That and sometimes your thrust and parry can be a bit harsh for some people who are still wounded.<P>I honestly do hope you are happy. I would never wish unhappiness on anyone. Not even my not soon enough to be ex. I have felt enough unhappiness in the last 9 months to never wish it on anyone ever again.<P>But the real problem is that there are a few people on this board who have to be right. I'd rather be happy. It's been my experience that you can't always be both...<P>And I never throw anything in just to soften the blow...<P><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Hey, FRIENDS OF SUE, I get the point. You enjoyed her little joke and you're enjoying this even more. Wow. What a fabulous feeding frenzy this is!!! <P>Not only that, you folks go after anyone who supports me, like Nellie and Bill. Truly charming. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]